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Re: Poor performance (again ;-)

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  • leon_hurst2001
    Thank you too all who responded. Looks like I need to buy a new loco :-) One question about this Whal Oil. How and why does it work? Oil is normally an
    Message 1 of 24 , Oct 1, 2003
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      Thank you too all who responded. Looks like I need to
      buy a new loco :-)

      One question about this Whal Oil. How and why does it work?
      Oil is normally an insulator so is there something special
      with Whal oil that it is a conductor of electricity?

      Many thanks and appreciation for your help,
      Leon.


      --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "kianholstead" <kianholstead@y...>
      wrote:
      > Leon,
      >
      > I just recieved a 88432 loc with the five pole motor and found it
      an
      > incredible difference in running. I also have found that the "blue"
      > Marklin transformer should not be used as they have very little
      > voltage control.
      >
      > The five pole motors have made Z scale a whole new experience for
      me.
      >
      > Kian
    • Jeremy Brandon
      ... The problem with the 3-pole motors (I don t think this has been mentioned) is called cogging . The three poles of the armature are strongly attracted to
      Message 2 of 24 , Oct 1, 2003
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        --- "bill.foote" <bill.foote@v...> wrote:
        > There is no question that the current 5-pole motors have visibly
        > superior characteristics compared with the earlier 3-pole motors

        The problem with the 3-pole motors (I don't think this has been
        mentioned) is called "cogging". The three poles of the armature are
        strongly attracted to the two poles of the magnet, giving six stable
        positions per revolution. At slow speeds a relatively large torque is
        needed to turn the armature between these positions. (You can see and
        feel the cogging if you turn the motor with a toothpick!) Most
        controllers are not able to give just the right amount of "oomph" to
        kick the motor smoothly between the "cogs".

        5-pole motors have 10 "cogs" and need less torque to turn from one to
        another (try it!), so controllers have an easier job driving the
        motor slowly and smoothly.

        Cogging is avoided in can (Faulhaber/coreless) motors and by using
        skew windings. Cogging can also be overcome by a suitable controller.

        I have made a controller that copes with cogging, even in 3-pole
        motors, and drives nearly all locos smoothly at very slow speeds, and
        gives smooth acceleration and braking. Unfortunately I do not yet
        have a design ready for production. I am still working on it!

        Jeremy.
      • zbendtrack@aol.com
        ... Wahl oil is an antirust, anticorrosion agent that is clear as water, and as runny as water. It has no smell, and it is definitely NOT a lubricating oil
        Message 3 of 24 , Oct 1, 2003
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          Leon:

          > One question about this Whal Oil. How and why does it work?
          > Oil is normally an insulator so is there something special
          > with Whal oil that it is a conductor of electricity?
          >
          Here's a repeat of message #14415 from the archives:

          > What is wahl oil?

          Wahl oil is an antirust, anticorrosion agent that is clear as water, and as
          "runny" as water. It has no smell, and it is definitely NOT a lubricating
          oil as we know it.

          The manufacturer's website is at:

          <A HREF="http://www.wahlpro.com/l3/accesswp.htm">http://www.wahlpro.com/l3/accesswp.htm</A>

          Normal use: The high-carbon steel clipper blades in electric hair cutting
          razors would rust in days if some form of rust protection is not provided to
          the surface of the blades. At the same time, can you image the mess that
          would result if oil (as we know it) was applied to the blades, then the
          cutter put into thin human hair? It would become a cat's fur-ball in a
          second.

          About 40+ years ago, some long forgotten model railroader discovered if you
          applied Walh Oil to the tracks, it would prevent oxidation and improve
          electrical performance for a month or more. It is still used today by large
          clubs with large layouts that are monsters to clean.

          The technique is to put a single drop on your index finger, then touch both
          rails with your finger every meter or so. Then immediately run trains
          normally. The wheels pick it up and spread it around nicely. You cannot see
          it or feel it after its applied.

          No, the loco wheels do not spin when it hits the "oil" nor do you trains fail

          to climb hills. No, it does not build up on the wheels of the locos or cars
          or track over time. Nor does it get into the scratch-and-pray electrical
          systems. It does not dissolve plastics or nylon. No, its is NOT good for
          any lubrication functions in train gears, motor bearings or anything else we
          use in Z scale.

          Do I believe in it? Absolutely. In the late 1980's I was involved with a
          large N scale layout (25 meters x 15 meters) and every couple of months, you
          could see the trains start to stutter from poor electrical connection to the
          track. A standard track cleaning (any method of your choice) followed by a
          Wahl Oil treatment kept the trains running perfectly for another 90 days.
          Without Wahl Oil, the track had to be recleaned every couple of weeks.

          Do I use it in Z scale? Yes. It works in Z too. But remember, only one
          drop on your finger (its not toxic) and touch the rails once a meter. That's
          it. A $2usd bottle is enough for 100 lifetimes. It compliments the
          functions of a Relco unit, too. Relco's kick in when you LOOSE the track
          circuit. Wahl oil helps to KEEP the track circuit in the first place.

          And finally, no, it does not resolve the classic problem of 0-4-0 steamers
          and Marklin dead-frog turnouts. That's a different problem.

          Hope this helps,
          Bill K.
          Houston






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • The Prez
          ... I have tried to order it from US many weeks ago but the shipping costs were the same of an elephant with its baby. Any seller in Europe? Could anyone in US
          Message 4 of 24 , Oct 1, 2003
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            >The manufacturer's website is at:

            ><A HREF="http://www.wahlpro.com/l3/accesswp.htm">http://www.wahlpro.com/l3/accesswp.htm</A>


            I have tried to order it from US many weeks ago but the shipping costs were the same of
            an elephant with its baby.

            Any seller in Europe?

            Could anyone in US ship me one or 2 pieces without using Fedex, DHL or similar?

            I will refund through Paypal,

            Alex

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Arjen
            ... HREF= http://www.wahlpro.com/l3/accesswp.htm http://www.wahlpro.com/ l3/accesswp.htm ... costs were the same of ... I bought a bottle off my local
            Message 5 of 24 , Oct 1, 2003
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              --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "The Prez" <alextrov@e...> wrote:
              >
              > >The manufacturer's website is at:
              >
              > ><A
              HREF="http://www.wahlpro.com/l3/accesswp.htm">http://www.wahlpro.com/
              l3/accesswp.htm</A>
              >
              >
              > I have tried to order it from US many weeks ago but the shipping
              costs were the same of
              > an elephant with its baby.
              >
              > Any seller in Europe?

              I bought a bottle off my local barber shop, here in Utrecht,
              Netherlands. Have you tried yours?

              Arjen Gerstel
              Utrecht
              The Netherlands
            • The Prez
              ... I bought a bottle off my local barber shop, here in Utrecht, Netherlands. Have you tried yours? Uhm... is it the US one? I do not think barber shops sell
              Message 6 of 24 , Oct 1, 2003
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                ----- Original Message -----
                >
                >
                I bought a bottle off my local barber shop, here in Utrecht,
                Netherlands. Have you tried yours?

                Uhm... is it the US one? I do not think barber shops sell anything like that here
                and do not think there is that particular brand at all in Italy.
                maybe in some wholesale company for barber shops accessories.

                However I have found a Z friend in US that will ship 2 bottles to me.

                Thanks a lot,

                Alex



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              • Arjen
                ... like that here ... Yes, it is the US stuff, even says made in USA on the bottle. So, fellow Europeans, just ask your barber. Who knows. Arjen
                Message 7 of 24 , Oct 1, 2003
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                  --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "The Prez" <alextrov@e...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > >
                  > >
                  > I bought a bottle off my local barber shop, here in Utrecht,
                  > Netherlands. Have you tried yours?
                  >
                  > Uhm... is it the US one? I do not think barber shops sell anything
                  like that here
                  > and do not think there is that particular brand at all in Italy.
                  > maybe in some wholesale company for barber shops accessories.
                  >

                  Yes, it is the US stuff, even says "made in USA" on the bottle. So,
                  fellow Europeans, just ask your barber. Who knows.

                  Arjen
                • bill.foote
                  I very much doubt if _any_ barber shop will actually advertise Wahl Oil for sale - you need to talk nicely to your barber to see if he will either sell you his
                  Message 8 of 24 , Oct 1, 2003
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                    I very much doubt if _any_ barber shop will actually advertise Wahl Oil for
                    sale - you need to talk nicely to your barber to see if he will either sell
                    you his spare bottle or add one to his next barber-supplies order for you

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "The Prez" <alextrov@...>
                    To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 10:15 PM
                    Subject: Re: [z_scale] Re: Poor performance (again ;-)


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    >
                    >
                    I bought a bottle off my local barber shop, here in Utrecht,
                    Netherlands. Have you tried yours?

                    Uhm... is it the US one? I do not think barber shops sell anything like that
                    here
                    and do not think there is that particular brand at all in Italy.
                    maybe in some wholesale company for barber shops accessories.
                  • de Champeaux Dominique
                    ... Uhh, unfortunately, here in France I don t know any barbershop selling any railroad model, so Z scale stuff in a barbershop, I let you imagine! It s sad,
                    Message 9 of 24 , Oct 2, 2003
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                      > Yes, it is the US stuff, even says "made in USA" on
                      > the bottle. So,
                      > fellow Europeans, just ask your barber. Who knows.
                      >
                      > Arjen

                      Uhh, unfortunately, here in France I don't know any
                      barbershop selling any railroad model, so Z scale
                      stuff in a barbershop, I let you imagine! It's sad, as
                      I have 2 barbershops in a 100m radius around my home!
                      Unfortunately it will be long before we have a
                      barbershop beeing like the sample at Tehachapi, CA.
                      Cheers
                      Dominique

                      ___________________________________________________________
                      Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @... gratuite et en français !
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                    • zbendtrack@aol.com
                      ... Suggestion: look for a barber supply outlet. Or a ladies beauty supply outlet. Anyone that sells hair clippers will probably sell Wahl oil to go with
                      Message 10 of 24 , Oct 2, 2003
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                        All:

                        > I very much doubt if _any_ barber shop will actually advertise Wahl Oil

                        Suggestion: look for a barber supply outlet. Or a ladies beauty supply
                        outlet. Anyone that sells hair clippers will probably sell Wahl oil to go with
                        them.

                        "Sally Beauty Supply" is a huge chain store operation in the USA that sells
                        all manners of things ladies use to be "beautiful." Although I feel totally
                        out place when in the store surrounded by ladies talking about things I know
                        nothing about, I find many train things:

                        - Wahl Oil
                        - Funny little applicators (like ear swabs) that make great
                        applicators for weathering and cleaning
                        - Tiny brushes for painting, at a fraction of the price at "art" stores
                        - Foam backed sandpaper files (cheap)
                        - Makeup powders in earth tones for weathering
                        - Tiny wood and metal "picks" to use in constructing things
                        - Foam sponges for cleaning
                        - Plastic bottles, both hard and squeeze types with long snouts
                        - Strange looking clamps, excellent for use as a "3rd" hand
                        - Plastic storage boxes with compartments

                        I you take your wife with you, she will be pleased to explain what all these
                        things are "supposed" to be used for.

                        Hope this helps,
                        Bill Kronenberger
                        Houston




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • tsa47
                        Here in Canada I know Wal-Mart sell Wahl oil. ... Wahl Oil
                        Message 11 of 24 , Oct 2, 2003
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                          Here in Canada I know Wal-Mart sell Wahl oil.




                          --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, zbendtrack@a... wrote:
                          > All:
                          >
                          > > I very much doubt if _any_ barber shop will actually advertise
                          Wahl Oil
                          >
                        • Bruce
                          While trying various ways to clean the Marklin Z track on my first Z setup, he battery powered blue 0-6-0 and car and optional track set with 4 turnouts, I
                          Message 12 of 24 , Oct 2, 2003
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                            While trying various ways to clean the Marklin Z track on my first Z
                            setup, he battery powered blue 0-6-0 and car and optional track set
                            with 4 turnouts, I tried rubbing a small scrap of the cork sheet I
                            had cut and fit as roadbed under the track and found it wipes the
                            rails quite well and doesn't snag switch points like cloth does. The
                            cork picks up oxidation real well and can be cleaned somewhat with
                            rubbing alchohol a time or two but that's more work then it's worth
                            as a small piece of cork will last for several cleanings on the
                            double loop I have set up.

                            I've worked with HO and a little N since I was a kid and for some
                            reason I have never heard of putting Whal hair clipper oil on track
                            to improve smooth operating. I imagine the trick is to use just
                            enough to dampen the rail surface without getting it noticably wet
                            and would suspect any really thin oil, like sewing machine oil, would
                            work.

                            I also have found getting just the right spring pressure on the motor
                            brushes in all scales I've worked with can make a very big difference
                            in how a loco runs. New out of the box the Marklin 0-6-0 I have would
                            not run at the lowest transformer settings (the white one that came
                            with the optional track set) and would tend to suddenly take off as
                            power was increased.

                            I found after adjusting the tension on the motor brushes until I
                            found the right pressure that allowed it to start and ran the best
                            without sputtering from too little brush pressure the loco would
                            start and run at the first contact of the transformer wiper so well
                            that I ended up having to put a small resistance in line with one of
                            the power supply wires to the track so the loco would start smoothly
                            and not take off suddenly at the first voltage the power supply puts
                            out.

                            What I used to drop track starting voltage a bit was a two commonly
                            available 1 amp power supply type diodes (the little black ones with
                            a grey stripe at one end) connected in series with one of the power
                            supply wires, and another pair facing the opposite way in parallel
                            (must have one pair in each direction to allow power to flow both
                            ways for forward and reverse).

                            The voltage drop across many low power diodes like those often found
                            in the power supplies of small electronic devices is typicaly .3
                            to .5 volts, which makes them an ideal way to drop a little voltage
                            when needed on low voltage circuits like model railroads and ham and
                            cb radio panel lights that uses 12 vdc for the panel lights. It is
                            also a good way to reduce the brilliance and add life span to
                            lighting used in model railroad buildings powered by a fixed dc
                            voltage source.

                            Those 1 am power supply type diodes can often be found in bulk packs
                            at Radio Shack or any electronic parts supplier and aren't expensive
                            (if they are then go somewhere else). If you don't mind doing a
                            little disassembly and unsoldering they can be got for free from
                            cheap am-fm radios, tape recorders, and any smaller electronic device
                            that has a built in power supply that is going to be thrown out as
                            junk.

                            Hope this is of some help to the group.

                            Bruce

                            >turnouts some times.. I then noticed somebody in this group
                            >mentioned the tiniest smear of Whal oil on the track improved things
                            >dramatically. I tried this and have no more problems!
                            > I found I could not by Whal oil in New Zealand anymore but found
                            >Bernina sewing machine oil was the same thing.


                            > Brush tension also makes a big difference.
                          • David George
                            Bruce, Don t confuse Whal OIL with other lubricants. It is not a true OIL but is primarily an oxidation inhibitor and does not provide a lubricant effect.
                            Message 13 of 24 , Oct 2, 2003
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                              Bruce,
                              Don't confuse Whal "OIL" with other lubricants. It is not a true OIL but is primarily an oxidation inhibitor and does not provide a lubricant effect.
                              David G.
                              "G~B&CC RR"

                              Bruce <n1yn@...> wrote:
                              While trying various ways to clean the Marklin Z track on my first Z
                              setup, he battery powered blue 0-6-0 and car and optional track set
                              with 4 turnouts, I tried rubbing a small scrap of the cork sheet I
                              had cut and fit as roadbed under the track and found it wipes the
                              rails quite well and doesn't snag switch points like cloth does. The
                              cork picks up oxidation real well and can be cleaned somewhat with
                              rubbing alchohol a time or two but that's more work then it's worth
                              as a small piece of cork will last for several cleanings on the
                              double loop I have set up.

                              I've worked with HO and a little N since I was a kid and for some
                              reason I have never heard of putting Whal hair clipper oil on track
                              to improve smooth operating. I imagine the trick is to use just
                              enough to dampen the rail surface without getting it noticably wet
                              and would suspect any really thin oil, like sewing machine oil, would
                              work.

                              I also have found getting just the right spring pressure on the motor
                              brushes in all scales I've worked with can make a very big difference
                              in how a loco runs. New out of the box the Marklin 0-6-0 I have would
                              not run at the lowest transformer settings (the white one that came
                              with the optional track set) and would tend to suddenly take off as
                              power was increased.

                              I found after adjusting the tension on the motor brushes until I
                              found the right pressure that allowed it to start and ran the best
                              without sputtering from too little brush pressure the loco would
                              start and run at the first contact of the transformer wiper so well
                              that I ended up having to put a small resistance in line with one of
                              the power supply wires to the track so the loco would start smoothly
                              and not take off suddenly at the first voltage the power supply puts
                              out.

                              What I used to drop track starting voltage a bit was a two commonly
                              available 1 amp power supply type diodes (the little black ones with
                              a grey stripe at one end) connected in series with one of the power
                              supply wires, and another pair facing the opposite way in parallel
                              (must have one pair in each direction to allow power to flow both
                              ways for forward and reverse).

                              The voltage drop across many low power diodes like those often found
                              in the power supplies of small electronic devices is typicaly .3
                              to .5 volts, which makes them an ideal way to drop a little voltage
                              when needed on low voltage circuits like model railroads and ham and
                              cb radio panel lights that uses 12 vdc for the panel lights. It is
                              also a good way to reduce the brilliance and add life span to
                              lighting used in model railroad buildings powered by a fixed dc
                              voltage source.

                              Those 1 am power supply type diodes can often be found in bulk packs
                              at Radio Shack or any electronic parts supplier and aren't expensive
                              (if they are then go somewhere else). If you don't mind doing a
                              little disassembly and unsoldering they can be got for free from
                              cheap am-fm radios, tape recorders, and any smaller electronic device
                              that has a built in power supply that is going to be thrown out as
                              junk.

                              Hope this is of some help to the group.

                              Bruce

                              >turnouts some times.. I then noticed somebody in this group
                              >mentioned the tiniest smear of Whal oil on the track improved things
                              >dramatically. I tried this and have no more problems!
                              > I found I could not by Whal oil in New Zealand anymore but found
                              >Bernina sewing machine oil was the same thing.


                              > Brush tension also makes a big difference.



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                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • bill.foote
                              FWIIW the forward voltage drop in a Silicon Diode (the most usually found type these days) is 0.7 volt (the now almost completely obsolete Germanium Diode has
                              Message 14 of 24 , Oct 2, 2003
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                                FWIIW the forward voltage drop in a Silicon Diode (the most usually found
                                type these days) is 0.7 volt (the now almost completely obsolete Germanium
                                Diode has a smaller forward voltage drop)

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Bruce" <n1yn@...>
                                To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 6:14 PM
                                Subject: [z_scale] Re: Poor performance (again ;-)
                                >
                                > What I used to drop track starting voltage a bit was a two commonly
                                > available 1 amp power supply type diodes (the little black ones with
                                > a grey stripe at one end) connected in series with one of the power
                                > supply wires, and another pair facing the opposite way in parallel
                                > (must have one pair in each direction to allow power to flow both
                                > ways for forward and reverse).
                                >
                                > The voltage drop across many low power diodes like those often found
                                > in the power supplies of small electronic devices is typicaly .3
                                > to .5 volts, which makes them an ideal way to drop a little voltage
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