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Re: Poor performance (again ;-)

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  • kianholstead
    Leon, I just recieved a 88432 loc with the five pole motor and found it an incredible difference in running. I also have found that the blue Marklin
    Message 1 of 24 , Sep 30, 2003
      Leon,

      I just recieved a 88432 loc with the five pole motor and found it an
      incredible difference in running. I also have found that the "blue"
      Marklin transformer should not be used as they have very little
      voltage control.

      The five pole motors have made Z scale a whole new experience for me.

      Kian
    • leon_hurst2001
      Thank you too all who responded. Looks like I need to buy a new loco :-) One question about this Whal Oil. How and why does it work? Oil is normally an
      Message 2 of 24 , Oct 1, 2003
        Thank you too all who responded. Looks like I need to
        buy a new loco :-)

        One question about this Whal Oil. How and why does it work?
        Oil is normally an insulator so is there something special
        with Whal oil that it is a conductor of electricity?

        Many thanks and appreciation for your help,
        Leon.


        --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "kianholstead" <kianholstead@y...>
        wrote:
        > Leon,
        >
        > I just recieved a 88432 loc with the five pole motor and found it
        an
        > incredible difference in running. I also have found that the "blue"
        > Marklin transformer should not be used as they have very little
        > voltage control.
        >
        > The five pole motors have made Z scale a whole new experience for
        me.
        >
        > Kian
      • Jeremy Brandon
        ... The problem with the 3-pole motors (I don t think this has been mentioned) is called cogging . The three poles of the armature are strongly attracted to
        Message 3 of 24 , Oct 1, 2003
          --- "bill.foote" <bill.foote@v...> wrote:
          > There is no question that the current 5-pole motors have visibly
          > superior characteristics compared with the earlier 3-pole motors

          The problem with the 3-pole motors (I don't think this has been
          mentioned) is called "cogging". The three poles of the armature are
          strongly attracted to the two poles of the magnet, giving six stable
          positions per revolution. At slow speeds a relatively large torque is
          needed to turn the armature between these positions. (You can see and
          feel the cogging if you turn the motor with a toothpick!) Most
          controllers are not able to give just the right amount of "oomph" to
          kick the motor smoothly between the "cogs".

          5-pole motors have 10 "cogs" and need less torque to turn from one to
          another (try it!), so controllers have an easier job driving the
          motor slowly and smoothly.

          Cogging is avoided in can (Faulhaber/coreless) motors and by using
          skew windings. Cogging can also be overcome by a suitable controller.

          I have made a controller that copes with cogging, even in 3-pole
          motors, and drives nearly all locos smoothly at very slow speeds, and
          gives smooth acceleration and braking. Unfortunately I do not yet
          have a design ready for production. I am still working on it!

          Jeremy.
        • zbendtrack@aol.com
          ... Wahl oil is an antirust, anticorrosion agent that is clear as water, and as runny as water. It has no smell, and it is definitely NOT a lubricating oil
          Message 4 of 24 , Oct 1, 2003
            Leon:

            > One question about this Whal Oil. How and why does it work?
            > Oil is normally an insulator so is there something special
            > with Whal oil that it is a conductor of electricity?
            >
            Here's a repeat of message #14415 from the archives:

            > What is wahl oil?

            Wahl oil is an antirust, anticorrosion agent that is clear as water, and as
            "runny" as water. It has no smell, and it is definitely NOT a lubricating
            oil as we know it.

            The manufacturer's website is at:

            <A HREF="http://www.wahlpro.com/l3/accesswp.htm">http://www.wahlpro.com/l3/accesswp.htm</A>

            Normal use: The high-carbon steel clipper blades in electric hair cutting
            razors would rust in days if some form of rust protection is not provided to
            the surface of the blades. At the same time, can you image the mess that
            would result if oil (as we know it) was applied to the blades, then the
            cutter put into thin human hair? It would become a cat's fur-ball in a
            second.

            About 40+ years ago, some long forgotten model railroader discovered if you
            applied Walh Oil to the tracks, it would prevent oxidation and improve
            electrical performance for a month or more. It is still used today by large
            clubs with large layouts that are monsters to clean.

            The technique is to put a single drop on your index finger, then touch both
            rails with your finger every meter or so. Then immediately run trains
            normally. The wheels pick it up and spread it around nicely. You cannot see
            it or feel it after its applied.

            No, the loco wheels do not spin when it hits the "oil" nor do you trains fail

            to climb hills. No, it does not build up on the wheels of the locos or cars
            or track over time. Nor does it get into the scratch-and-pray electrical
            systems. It does not dissolve plastics or nylon. No, its is NOT good for
            any lubrication functions in train gears, motor bearings or anything else we
            use in Z scale.

            Do I believe in it? Absolutely. In the late 1980's I was involved with a
            large N scale layout (25 meters x 15 meters) and every couple of months, you
            could see the trains start to stutter from poor electrical connection to the
            track. A standard track cleaning (any method of your choice) followed by a
            Wahl Oil treatment kept the trains running perfectly for another 90 days.
            Without Wahl Oil, the track had to be recleaned every couple of weeks.

            Do I use it in Z scale? Yes. It works in Z too. But remember, only one
            drop on your finger (its not toxic) and touch the rails once a meter. That's
            it. A $2usd bottle is enough for 100 lifetimes. It compliments the
            functions of a Relco unit, too. Relco's kick in when you LOOSE the track
            circuit. Wahl oil helps to KEEP the track circuit in the first place.

            And finally, no, it does not resolve the classic problem of 0-4-0 steamers
            and Marklin dead-frog turnouts. That's a different problem.

            Hope this helps,
            Bill K.
            Houston






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • The Prez
            ... I have tried to order it from US many weeks ago but the shipping costs were the same of an elephant with its baby. Any seller in Europe? Could anyone in US
            Message 5 of 24 , Oct 1, 2003
              >The manufacturer's website is at:

              ><A HREF="http://www.wahlpro.com/l3/accesswp.htm">http://www.wahlpro.com/l3/accesswp.htm</A>


              I have tried to order it from US many weeks ago but the shipping costs were the same of
              an elephant with its baby.

              Any seller in Europe?

              Could anyone in US ship me one or 2 pieces without using Fedex, DHL or similar?

              I will refund through Paypal,

              Alex

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Arjen
              ... HREF= http://www.wahlpro.com/l3/accesswp.htm http://www.wahlpro.com/ l3/accesswp.htm ... costs were the same of ... I bought a bottle off my local
              Message 6 of 24 , Oct 1, 2003
                --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "The Prez" <alextrov@e...> wrote:
                >
                > >The manufacturer's website is at:
                >
                > ><A
                HREF="http://www.wahlpro.com/l3/accesswp.htm">http://www.wahlpro.com/
                l3/accesswp.htm</A>
                >
                >
                > I have tried to order it from US many weeks ago but the shipping
                costs were the same of
                > an elephant with its baby.
                >
                > Any seller in Europe?

                I bought a bottle off my local barber shop, here in Utrecht,
                Netherlands. Have you tried yours?

                Arjen Gerstel
                Utrecht
                The Netherlands
              • The Prez
                ... I bought a bottle off my local barber shop, here in Utrecht, Netherlands. Have you tried yours? Uhm... is it the US one? I do not think barber shops sell
                Message 7 of 24 , Oct 1, 2003
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  >
                  >
                  I bought a bottle off my local barber shop, here in Utrecht,
                  Netherlands. Have you tried yours?

                  Uhm... is it the US one? I do not think barber shops sell anything like that here
                  and do not think there is that particular brand at all in Italy.
                  maybe in some wholesale company for barber shops accessories.

                  However I have found a Z friend in US that will ship 2 bottles to me.

                  Thanks a lot,

                  Alex



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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Arjen
                  ... like that here ... Yes, it is the US stuff, even says made in USA on the bottle. So, fellow Europeans, just ask your barber. Who knows. Arjen
                  Message 8 of 24 , Oct 1, 2003
                    --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, "The Prez" <alextrov@e...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > >
                    > >
                    > I bought a bottle off my local barber shop, here in Utrecht,
                    > Netherlands. Have you tried yours?
                    >
                    > Uhm... is it the US one? I do not think barber shops sell anything
                    like that here
                    > and do not think there is that particular brand at all in Italy.
                    > maybe in some wholesale company for barber shops accessories.
                    >

                    Yes, it is the US stuff, even says "made in USA" on the bottle. So,
                    fellow Europeans, just ask your barber. Who knows.

                    Arjen
                  • bill.foote
                    I very much doubt if _any_ barber shop will actually advertise Wahl Oil for sale - you need to talk nicely to your barber to see if he will either sell you his
                    Message 9 of 24 , Oct 1, 2003
                      I very much doubt if _any_ barber shop will actually advertise Wahl Oil for
                      sale - you need to talk nicely to your barber to see if he will either sell
                      you his spare bottle or add one to his next barber-supplies order for you

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "The Prez" <alextrov@...>
                      To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 10:15 PM
                      Subject: Re: [z_scale] Re: Poor performance (again ;-)


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      >
                      >
                      I bought a bottle off my local barber shop, here in Utrecht,
                      Netherlands. Have you tried yours?

                      Uhm... is it the US one? I do not think barber shops sell anything like that
                      here
                      and do not think there is that particular brand at all in Italy.
                      maybe in some wholesale company for barber shops accessories.
                    • de Champeaux Dominique
                      ... Uhh, unfortunately, here in France I don t know any barbershop selling any railroad model, so Z scale stuff in a barbershop, I let you imagine! It s sad,
                      Message 10 of 24 , Oct 2, 2003
                        > Yes, it is the US stuff, even says "made in USA" on
                        > the bottle. So,
                        > fellow Europeans, just ask your barber. Who knows.
                        >
                        > Arjen

                        Uhh, unfortunately, here in France I don't know any
                        barbershop selling any railroad model, so Z scale
                        stuff in a barbershop, I let you imagine! It's sad, as
                        I have 2 barbershops in a 100m radius around my home!
                        Unfortunately it will be long before we have a
                        barbershop beeing like the sample at Tehachapi, CA.
                        Cheers
                        Dominique

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                      • zbendtrack@aol.com
                        ... Suggestion: look for a barber supply outlet. Or a ladies beauty supply outlet. Anyone that sells hair clippers will probably sell Wahl oil to go with
                        Message 11 of 24 , Oct 2, 2003
                          All:

                          > I very much doubt if _any_ barber shop will actually advertise Wahl Oil

                          Suggestion: look for a barber supply outlet. Or a ladies beauty supply
                          outlet. Anyone that sells hair clippers will probably sell Wahl oil to go with
                          them.

                          "Sally Beauty Supply" is a huge chain store operation in the USA that sells
                          all manners of things ladies use to be "beautiful." Although I feel totally
                          out place when in the store surrounded by ladies talking about things I know
                          nothing about, I find many train things:

                          - Wahl Oil
                          - Funny little applicators (like ear swabs) that make great
                          applicators for weathering and cleaning
                          - Tiny brushes for painting, at a fraction of the price at "art" stores
                          - Foam backed sandpaper files (cheap)
                          - Makeup powders in earth tones for weathering
                          - Tiny wood and metal "picks" to use in constructing things
                          - Foam sponges for cleaning
                          - Plastic bottles, both hard and squeeze types with long snouts
                          - Strange looking clamps, excellent for use as a "3rd" hand
                          - Plastic storage boxes with compartments

                          I you take your wife with you, she will be pleased to explain what all these
                          things are "supposed" to be used for.

                          Hope this helps,
                          Bill Kronenberger
                          Houston




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • tsa47
                          Here in Canada I know Wal-Mart sell Wahl oil. ... Wahl Oil
                          Message 12 of 24 , Oct 2, 2003
                            Here in Canada I know Wal-Mart sell Wahl oil.




                            --- In z_scale@yahoogroups.com, zbendtrack@a... wrote:
                            > All:
                            >
                            > > I very much doubt if _any_ barber shop will actually advertise
                            Wahl Oil
                            >
                          • Bruce
                            While trying various ways to clean the Marklin Z track on my first Z setup, he battery powered blue 0-6-0 and car and optional track set with 4 turnouts, I
                            Message 13 of 24 , Oct 2, 2003
                              While trying various ways to clean the Marklin Z track on my first Z
                              setup, he battery powered blue 0-6-0 and car and optional track set
                              with 4 turnouts, I tried rubbing a small scrap of the cork sheet I
                              had cut and fit as roadbed under the track and found it wipes the
                              rails quite well and doesn't snag switch points like cloth does. The
                              cork picks up oxidation real well and can be cleaned somewhat with
                              rubbing alchohol a time or two but that's more work then it's worth
                              as a small piece of cork will last for several cleanings on the
                              double loop I have set up.

                              I've worked with HO and a little N since I was a kid and for some
                              reason I have never heard of putting Whal hair clipper oil on track
                              to improve smooth operating. I imagine the trick is to use just
                              enough to dampen the rail surface without getting it noticably wet
                              and would suspect any really thin oil, like sewing machine oil, would
                              work.

                              I also have found getting just the right spring pressure on the motor
                              brushes in all scales I've worked with can make a very big difference
                              in how a loco runs. New out of the box the Marklin 0-6-0 I have would
                              not run at the lowest transformer settings (the white one that came
                              with the optional track set) and would tend to suddenly take off as
                              power was increased.

                              I found after adjusting the tension on the motor brushes until I
                              found the right pressure that allowed it to start and ran the best
                              without sputtering from too little brush pressure the loco would
                              start and run at the first contact of the transformer wiper so well
                              that I ended up having to put a small resistance in line with one of
                              the power supply wires to the track so the loco would start smoothly
                              and not take off suddenly at the first voltage the power supply puts
                              out.

                              What I used to drop track starting voltage a bit was a two commonly
                              available 1 amp power supply type diodes (the little black ones with
                              a grey stripe at one end) connected in series with one of the power
                              supply wires, and another pair facing the opposite way in parallel
                              (must have one pair in each direction to allow power to flow both
                              ways for forward and reverse).

                              The voltage drop across many low power diodes like those often found
                              in the power supplies of small electronic devices is typicaly .3
                              to .5 volts, which makes them an ideal way to drop a little voltage
                              when needed on low voltage circuits like model railroads and ham and
                              cb radio panel lights that uses 12 vdc for the panel lights. It is
                              also a good way to reduce the brilliance and add life span to
                              lighting used in model railroad buildings powered by a fixed dc
                              voltage source.

                              Those 1 am power supply type diodes can often be found in bulk packs
                              at Radio Shack or any electronic parts supplier and aren't expensive
                              (if they are then go somewhere else). If you don't mind doing a
                              little disassembly and unsoldering they can be got for free from
                              cheap am-fm radios, tape recorders, and any smaller electronic device
                              that has a built in power supply that is going to be thrown out as
                              junk.

                              Hope this is of some help to the group.

                              Bruce

                              >turnouts some times.. I then noticed somebody in this group
                              >mentioned the tiniest smear of Whal oil on the track improved things
                              >dramatically. I tried this and have no more problems!
                              > I found I could not by Whal oil in New Zealand anymore but found
                              >Bernina sewing machine oil was the same thing.


                              > Brush tension also makes a big difference.
                            • David George
                              Bruce, Don t confuse Whal OIL with other lubricants. It is not a true OIL but is primarily an oxidation inhibitor and does not provide a lubricant effect.
                              Message 14 of 24 , Oct 2, 2003
                                Bruce,
                                Don't confuse Whal "OIL" with other lubricants. It is not a true OIL but is primarily an oxidation inhibitor and does not provide a lubricant effect.
                                David G.
                                "G~B&CC RR"

                                Bruce <n1yn@...> wrote:
                                While trying various ways to clean the Marklin Z track on my first Z
                                setup, he battery powered blue 0-6-0 and car and optional track set
                                with 4 turnouts, I tried rubbing a small scrap of the cork sheet I
                                had cut and fit as roadbed under the track and found it wipes the
                                rails quite well and doesn't snag switch points like cloth does. The
                                cork picks up oxidation real well and can be cleaned somewhat with
                                rubbing alchohol a time or two but that's more work then it's worth
                                as a small piece of cork will last for several cleanings on the
                                double loop I have set up.

                                I've worked with HO and a little N since I was a kid and for some
                                reason I have never heard of putting Whal hair clipper oil on track
                                to improve smooth operating. I imagine the trick is to use just
                                enough to dampen the rail surface without getting it noticably wet
                                and would suspect any really thin oil, like sewing machine oil, would
                                work.

                                I also have found getting just the right spring pressure on the motor
                                brushes in all scales I've worked with can make a very big difference
                                in how a loco runs. New out of the box the Marklin 0-6-0 I have would
                                not run at the lowest transformer settings (the white one that came
                                with the optional track set) and would tend to suddenly take off as
                                power was increased.

                                I found after adjusting the tension on the motor brushes until I
                                found the right pressure that allowed it to start and ran the best
                                without sputtering from too little brush pressure the loco would
                                start and run at the first contact of the transformer wiper so well
                                that I ended up having to put a small resistance in line with one of
                                the power supply wires to the track so the loco would start smoothly
                                and not take off suddenly at the first voltage the power supply puts
                                out.

                                What I used to drop track starting voltage a bit was a two commonly
                                available 1 amp power supply type diodes (the little black ones with
                                a grey stripe at one end) connected in series with one of the power
                                supply wires, and another pair facing the opposite way in parallel
                                (must have one pair in each direction to allow power to flow both
                                ways for forward and reverse).

                                The voltage drop across many low power diodes like those often found
                                in the power supplies of small electronic devices is typicaly .3
                                to .5 volts, which makes them an ideal way to drop a little voltage
                                when needed on low voltage circuits like model railroads and ham and
                                cb radio panel lights that uses 12 vdc for the panel lights. It is
                                also a good way to reduce the brilliance and add life span to
                                lighting used in model railroad buildings powered by a fixed dc
                                voltage source.

                                Those 1 am power supply type diodes can often be found in bulk packs
                                at Radio Shack or any electronic parts supplier and aren't expensive
                                (if they are then go somewhere else). If you don't mind doing a
                                little disassembly and unsoldering they can be got for free from
                                cheap am-fm radios, tape recorders, and any smaller electronic device
                                that has a built in power supply that is going to be thrown out as
                                junk.

                                Hope this is of some help to the group.

                                Bruce

                                >turnouts some times.. I then noticed somebody in this group
                                >mentioned the tiniest smear of Whal oil on the track improved things
                                >dramatically. I tried this and have no more problems!
                                > I found I could not by Whal oil in New Zealand anymore but found
                                >Bernina sewing machine oil was the same thing.


                                > Brush tension also makes a big difference.



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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • bill.foote
                                FWIIW the forward voltage drop in a Silicon Diode (the most usually found type these days) is 0.7 volt (the now almost completely obsolete Germanium Diode has
                                Message 15 of 24 , Oct 2, 2003
                                  FWIIW the forward voltage drop in a Silicon Diode (the most usually found
                                  type these days) is 0.7 volt (the now almost completely obsolete Germanium
                                  Diode has a smaller forward voltage drop)

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Bruce" <n1yn@...>
                                  To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 6:14 PM
                                  Subject: [z_scale] Re: Poor performance (again ;-)
                                  >
                                  > What I used to drop track starting voltage a bit was a two commonly
                                  > available 1 amp power supply type diodes (the little black ones with
                                  > a grey stripe at one end) connected in series with one of the power
                                  > supply wires, and another pair facing the opposite way in parallel
                                  > (must have one pair in each direction to allow power to flow both
                                  > ways for forward and reverse).
                                  >
                                  > The voltage drop across many low power diodes like those often found
                                  > in the power supplies of small electronic devices is typicaly .3
                                  > to .5 volts, which makes them an ideal way to drop a little voltage
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