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Re: [z_scale] More thoughts on Z-scale Hood Units

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  • Lawrence L. Smith
    Manfred, Please email me your personal address. Thanks. LArry
    Message 1 of 18 , Dec 31, 1969
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      Manfred,

      Please email me your personal address. Thanks.

      LArry

      ----------
      > Hi Larry,
      >
      > Is there any way to look at and print the autocad files without autocad?
      >
      > I would like to build some oil tanks and buildings and the coaling
      > station. I have only tried buildings cut from paper so far, as well as
      > store bought plastic models. They all came out OK so I want to go on to
      > something a little more advanced.
      >
      > If you could send me the files, I would like to try building some for my
      > layout.
      >
      > Thank you,
      >
      > Manfred
      >
      >
      >
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    • Lawrence L. Smith
      Hello everyone, Now that I m on the uphill side from my unusually busy family life, I want to add my input for a new loco. I ll throw in all my autocad drawn
      Message 2 of 18 , Dec 31, 1969
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        Hello everyone,

        Now that I'm on the uphill side from my unusually busy family life, I
        want to add my input for a new loco. I'll throw in all my autocad
        drawn drawings of a GE 80 ton switcher for use on this group
        switcher project. I did use my drawings to make a paper mockup
        in Z & N scales. These drawings could be refined to use for a
        brass etched version. The brass then could be used as a pattern
        for the casting/mold. The brass might be the better way to go as
        it would be thinner and stronger than the cast version. The detail
        may be a bit better depending on the type of molding & tooling
        used.

        I also have different varieties of oil/fuel tanks drawn up for
        use if anyone is interested. Buildings and a coaling tower
        also.

        I have Z & N scale versions drawn up for everything I've done
        in autocad 12. I'd just like the guys designing or manufacturing
        to email me and I'll email the files as zipped attachments to
        you for review and comment.

        This is what I have to pitch in currently towards our hobby. I
        have been designing molds 10 hrs a day for the past 5-6
        months and the last thing I want to do when I get home
        everyday is to do more drawing and design. When I've
        been working 8's for awhile then that's a different story.

        Thanks to everyone on this list for all their input and knowledge
        and any kind of Z related ads or product offerings. I wish I
        had more time to email the list....all good things come in time!

        Larry
        Meadville, PA


        -SNIP-

        > I never did like the GP7s and 9s. I don't really like high nose locos.
        >
        > I was thinking more along the lines of a GP30 or GP35.
        >
        > Although, and SD40-2 would be nice :-)
        >
        > Also, we MUST have an SW9/1200.
        >
        > Scott Whitmire
        > whitmire@...
      • D. A. Karp
        Hi all, I ve been working on preliminary designs of a Z-scale SD40-2, with a shell probably made in etched brass. I have some Faulhaber motors, Marklin
        Message 3 of 18 , Jul 9, 2000
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          Hi all,

          I've been working on preliminary designs of a Z-scale SD40-2, with a shell
          probably made in etched brass. I have some Faulhaber motors, Marklin
          trucks, and some other stuff. Perhaps selling these in kit form would help
          keep the prices down. Any thoughts?



          =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
          D. A. Karp
          subscribe@...
          =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
        • Scott A. Whitmire
          ... That s a good start, but I wouldn t use Marklin trucks. All of them that I ve seen are too long to be in scale. For a GP, I d go with MicoTrain trucks.
          Message 4 of 18 , Jul 9, 2000
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            At 7/9/00 07:22 PM , you wrote:
            >Hi all,
            >
            >I've been working on preliminary designs of a Z-scale SD40-2, with a shell
            >probably made in etched brass. I have some Faulhaber motors, Marklin
            >trucks, and some other stuff. Perhaps selling these in kit form would help
            >keep the prices down. Any thoughts?
            >
            >
            >
            >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
            >D. A. Karp


            That's a good start, but I wouldn't use Marklin trucks. All of them that I've
            seen are too long to be in scale. For a GP, I'd go with MicoTrain trucks.
            Plus, the SD40-2 used a truck frame that Marklin doesn't make.

            As for the shell, etched brass is probably the easiest to build, since you
            can use scale drawings for the etchings. Still, it might be possible to do
            the same thing in plastic, which would be much cheaper.

            Kit form might be the way to go. I priced the components at one point,
            and the gears, trucks, and shells would be cheap to produce, once the
            masters were cut. The motors would be the expensive parts, and accounted
            for nearly all of the $90-100 cost per unit. That dictates a retail price in
            the $250 range. If we can get the cost down to around $50-75 per unit,
            we could sell them for $150 or so. If we went with kits, we'd save the
            cost of assembly, but we'd lose the chance to test each unit.


            Scott Whitmire
            whitmire@...
          • D. A. Karp
            I contacted Micro-Mo (www.micromo.com) a few weeks ago about getting the 8mm faulhaber motors, and they ll sell them for about $50.00 apiece if one buys five
            Message 5 of 18 , Jul 9, 2000
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              I contacted Micro-Mo (www.micromo.com) a few weeks ago about getting the
              8mm faulhaber motors, and they'll sell them for about $50.00 apiece if one
              buys five or so. Greater quantities could mean even lower prices.

              You're right about the trucks, although I hate plastic gears. Anyone know
              where to get small metal gears?

              The frame would have to be built from scratch, due to the narrow body
              (~10mm). The Rogue design is pretty good - simple, heavy, and tough.




              At 07:41 PM 7/9/2000 -0700, you wrote:
              >That's a good start, but I wouldn't use Marklin trucks. All of them that I've
              >seen are too long to be in scale. For a GP, I'd go with MicoTrain trucks.
              >Plus, the SD40-2 used a truck frame that Marklin doesn't make.
              >
              >As for the shell, etched brass is probably the easiest to build, since you
              >can use scale drawings for the etchings. Still, it might be possible to do
              >the same thing in plastic, which would be much cheaper.
              >
              >Kit form might be the way to go. I priced the components at one point,
              >and the gears, trucks, and shells would be cheap to produce, once the
              >masters were cut. The motors would be the expensive parts, and accounted
              >for nearly all of the $90-100 cost per unit. That dictates a retail price in
              >the $250 range. If we can get the cost down to around $50-75 per unit,
              >we could sell them for $150 or so. If we went with kits, we'd save the
              >cost of assembly, but we'd lose the chance to test each unit.
              >
              >
              >Scott Whitmire
              >whitmire@...


              =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
              D. A. Karp
              subscribe@...
              =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
            • sutfin
              Dan, Some great ideas and plans. Since I model the Lackawanna, gotta go with the Trainmaster, but everyone needs several SW9/1200s. Actually, I ll be happy
              Message 6 of 18 , Jul 9, 2000
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                Dan,

                Some great ideas and plans. Since I model the Lackawanna, gotta go with
                the Trainmaster, but everyone needs several SW9/1200s. Actually, I'll be
                happy with anything the group comes up with. Variety is what's needed to
                really get Z off the ground, can only run so many F7s. That's what made
                Rogue such a hit right off the bat. A hood unit, and ones that ran/run
                beautifully.

                Has anyone heard anything about the Dash9s that Rogue was working on??

                Terry Sutfin
              • dbouchard@uswestmail.net
                Dan, Resin might be the way to go if you get a good master and someone who knows a lot about resin, I think you might want to discuss this with Rob Kluz, He
                Message 7 of 18 , Jul 9, 2000
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                  Dan,
                  Resin might be the way to go "if you get a good master and someone who knows "a lot" about resin, I think you might want to discuss this with Rob Kluz, He knows a thing or two about resin casting and I'm sure he won't mind,(too much) that I dropped his name.
                  Also, You might be surprised at the cost of doing the bodies in brass as a kit, If you laid it out right I think you could get 4-5 locos per sheet and keep the cost reasonable, There are a couple of people on the list who do brass and hopefully they will throw some info your way.
                  I think its great you guys are working on this project, If there's anything I can do let me know.
                  I also would hope anyone with the skills needed to produce parts for loco's would come forward and help out, if only by providing info.
                  Respectfully,
                  Don



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                • ztrack@aol.com
                  ... It is coming… That is all I can say. Rob Kluz Ztrack Magazine
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jul 10, 2000
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                    In a message dated 7/10/00 1:18:32 AM, sutfin@... writes:

                    >Has anyone heard anything about the Dash9s that Rogue was working on??

                    It is coming… That is all I can say.

                    Rob Kluz
                    Ztrack Magazine
                  • M. Gottschalch
                    Hi Larry, Is there any way to look at and print the autocad files without autocad? I would like to build some oil tanks and buildings and the coaling station.
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jul 10, 2000
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                      Hi Larry,

                      Is there any way to look at and print the autocad files without autocad?

                      I would like to build some oil tanks and buildings and the coaling
                      station. I have only tried buildings cut from paper so far, as well as
                      store bought plastic models. They all came out OK so I want to go on to
                      something a little more advanced.

                      If you could send me the files, I would like to try building some for my
                      layout.

                      Thank you,

                      Manfred
                    • Reynard Wellman
                      Well, since you guys are so determined to build some decent Z scale diesels, I ll chime in with some info for you. You can have gears built for you by American
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jul 10, 2000
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                        Well, since you guys are so determined to build some decent Z scale diesels, I'll
                        chime in with some info for you. You can have gears built for you by American
                        Precision Gear Co. Inc.Phone #650-595-3664, Fax #650-595-0388. If you are using
                        Micro-Mo, they have some great 8mm motors with 16/1 ratio gear boxes on them. We
                        plan to build some steam locos next year for both Z and N scale, but don't get
                        too excited, it's going to take some time and some capital to bring these out for
                        the retai market.

                        Good luck guys!
                        Reynard Wellman, DBA Micron Art
                        http://www.micronart.com

                        "D. A. Karp" wrote:

                        > I contacted Micro-Mo (www.micromo.com) a few weeks ago about getting the
                        > 8mm faulhaber motors, and they'll sell them for about $50.00 apiece if one
                        > buys five or so. Greater quantities could mean even lower prices.
                        >
                        > You're right about the trucks, although I hate plastic gears. Anyone know
                        > where to get small metal gears?
                        >
                        > The frame would have to be built from scratch, due to the narrow body
                        > (~10mm). The Rogue design is pretty good - simple, heavy, and tough.
                        >
                        > At 07:41 PM 7/9/2000 -0700, you wrote:
                        > >That's a good start, but I wouldn't use Marklin trucks. All of them that I've
                        > >seen are too long to be in scale. For a GP, I'd go with MicoTrain trucks.
                        > >Plus, the SD40-2 used a truck frame that Marklin doesn't make.
                        > >
                        > >As for the shell, etched brass is probably the easiest to build, since you
                        > >can use scale drawings for the etchings. Still, it might be possible to do
                        > >the same thing in plastic, which would be much cheaper.
                        > >
                        > >Kit form might be the way to go. I priced the components at one point,
                        > >and the gears, trucks, and shells would be cheap to produce, once the
                        > >masters were cut. The motors would be the expensive parts, and accounted
                        > >for nearly all of the $90-100 cost per unit. That dictates a retail price in
                        > >the $250 range. If we can get the cost down to around $50-75 per unit,
                        > >we could sell them for $150 or so. If we went with kits, we'd save the
                        > >cost of assembly, but we'd lose the chance to test each unit.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >Scott Whitmire
                        > >whitmire@...
                        >
                        > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
                        > D. A. Karp
                        > subscribe@...
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                        >
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                      • Dan MacKellar
                        Thanks for the info Don Well, my friend owns his own resin casting business (Sylvan Scale Models) Like I said, I ll look into getting prices. Currently, he
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jul 10, 2000
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                          Thanks for the info Don

                          Well, my friend owns his own resin casting business (Sylvan Scale Models)
                          Like I said, I'll look into getting prices. Currently, he only does N and
                          HO kits, but he expressed interest in Z scale shells if I could get the
                          patterns. Perhaps one of our brass people can help in this regard? I'd be
                          interested in even doing dummies as long as they can be powered at a future
                          date. As far as a modern GP goes, might I suggest the GP35 due to the flat
                          roofline. The vote seems to be set for a GP7/9, Modern GP and a SW7/1200.

                          Doing an etched brass master would be the first order of business, and
                          exactly how detailed would we want it? Rivets are almost out of the
                          question, but hood doors could be cast in. I'm seriously interested in
                          doing this, as are a number of others. I'll get back to the group with
                          quotes on shell prices tonight.

                          Regards,
                          Dan MacKellar




                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: dbouchard@... <dbouchard@...>
                          To: z_scale@egroups.com <z_scale@egroups.com>
                          Date: Monday, July 10, 2000 12:34 AM
                          Subject: Re: [z_scale] More thoughts on Z-scale Hood Units


                          >Dan,
                          >Resin might be the way to go "if you get a good master and someone who
                          knows "a lot" about resin, I think you might want to discuss this with Rob
                          Kluz, He knows a thing or two about resin casting and I'm sure he won't
                          mind,(too much) that I dropped his name.
                          > Also, You might be surprised at the cost of doing the bodies in brass as
                          a kit, If you laid it out right I think you could get 4-5 locos per sheet
                          and keep the cost reasonable, There are a couple of people on the list who
                          do brass and hopefully they will throw some info your way.
                          >I think its great you guys are working on this project, If there's anything
                          I can do let me know.
                          >I also would hope anyone with the skills needed to produce parts for loco's
                          would come forward and help out, if only by providing info.
                          >Respectfully,
                          >Don
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
                          >
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                        • jjabour
                          Dan I think you want the detail to be close to the quality of the Rogue GP38 (which by the way is excellent) John ... From: Dan MacKellar
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jul 10, 2000
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                            Dan
                            I think you want the detail to be close to the quality of the Rogue GP38
                            (which by the way is excellent)
                            John
                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Dan MacKellar <DMackellar@...>
                            To: z_scale@egroups.com <z_scale@egroups.com>
                            Date: Monday, July 10, 2000 3:49 PM
                            Subject: Re: [z_scale] More thoughts on Z-scale Hood Units


                            >Thanks for the info Don
                            >
                            >Well, my friend owns his own resin casting business (Sylvan Scale Models)
                            >Like I said, I'll look into getting prices. Currently, he only does N and
                            >HO kits, but he expressed interest in Z scale shells if I could get the
                            >patterns. Perhaps one of our brass people can help in this regard? I'd be
                            >interested in even doing dummies as long as they can be powered at a future
                            >date. As far as a modern GP goes, might I suggest the GP35 due to the flat
                            >roofline. The vote seems to be set for a GP7/9, Modern GP and a SW7/1200.
                            >
                            >Doing an etched brass master would be the first order of business, and
                            >exactly how detailed would we want it? Rivets are almost out of the
                            >question, but hood doors could be cast in. I'm seriously interested in
                            >doing this, as are a number of others. I'll get back to the group with
                            >quotes on shell prices tonight.
                            >
                            >Regards,
                            >Dan MacKellar
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >-----Original Message-----
                            >From: dbouchard@... <dbouchard@...>
                            >To: z_scale@egroups.com <z_scale@egroups.com>
                            >Date: Monday, July 10, 2000 12:34 AM
                            >Subject: Re: [z_scale] More thoughts on Z-scale Hood Units
                            >
                            >
                            >>Dan,
                            >>Resin might be the way to go "if you get a good master and someone who
                            >knows "a lot" about resin, I think you might want to discuss this with Rob
                            >Kluz, He knows a thing or two about resin casting and I'm sure he won't
                            >mind,(too much) that I dropped his name.
                            >> Also, You might be surprised at the cost of doing the bodies in brass as
                            >a kit, If you laid it out right I think you could get 4-5 locos per sheet
                            >and keep the cost reasonable, There are a couple of people on the list who
                            >do brass and hopefully they will throw some info your way.
                            >>I think its great you guys are working on this project, If there's
                            anything
                            >I can do let me know.
                            >>I also would hope anyone with the skills needed to produce parts for
                            loco's
                            >would come forward and help out, if only by providing info.
                            >>Respectfully,
                            >>Don
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
                            >>
                            >>------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            >>Make new friends, find the old at Classmates.com:
                            >>http://click.egroups.com/1/5530/2/_/560875/_/963207261/
                            >>------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            >>
                            >>Z: model railroading on a smaller scale.
                            >>
                            >>
                            >
                            >
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                          • Scott A. Whitmire
                            ... They ve come down. The prices I got were in the $70-90 range. ... NWSL s gears are delrin, except for their worms which are brass. You ll find that is
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jul 10, 2000
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                              At 7/9/00 08:06 PM , you wrote:
                              >I contacted Micro-Mo (www.micromo.com) a few weeks ago about getting the
                              >8mm faulhaber motors, and they'll sell them for about $50.00 apiece if one
                              >buys five or so. Greater quantities could mean even lower prices.

                              They've come down. The prices I got were in the $70-90 range.

                              >You're right about the trucks, although I hate plastic gears. Anyone know
                              >where to get small metal gears?

                              NWSL's gears are delrin, except for their worms which are brass. You'll
                              find that is nearly universal in model railroading. The smallest size that
                              NWSL stocks is mod 0.3. I would prefer mod 0.2, and brass would be
                              better. Might be noisier, though.

                              >The frame would have to be built from scratch, due to the narrow body
                              >(~10mm). The Rogue design is pretty good - simple, heavy, and tough.

                              The biggest problem with the frame is getting enough mass to provide
                              the necessary tractive effort. Ideally, a Z scale loco would weigh almost
                              what an N scale loco weighs. They should have plenty of heft. The motor
                              provides enough power. The MT F7s are about the minimum weight. The
                              Marklins are way too light.

                              Enough weight could be the major challenge in an SW9/1200. The other
                              would be getting power to both trucks


                              Scott Whitmire
                              whitmire@...
                            • Scott A. Whitmire
                              ... Thank you! For both pieces of info. The only drawback to the gear boxes from MicroMo is that they re only on one end of the motor, and we want the
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jul 10, 2000
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                                At 7/10/00 09:50 AM , you wrote:
                                >Well, since you guys are so determined to build some decent Z scale
                                >diesels, I'll
                                >chime in with some info for you. You can have gears built for you by American
                                >Precision Gear Co. Inc.Phone #650-595-3664, Fax #650-595-0388. If you are
                                >using
                                >Micro-Mo, they have some great 8mm motors with 16/1 ratio gear boxes on
                                >them. We
                                >plan to build some steam locos next year for both Z and N scale, but don't get
                                >too excited, it's going to take some time and some capital to bring these
                                >out for
                                >the retai market.
                                >
                                >Good luck guys!
                                >Reynard Wellman, DBA Micron Art

                                Thank you! For both pieces of info.

                                The only drawback to the gear boxes from MicroMo is that they're only
                                on one end of the motor, and we want the flywheels to run at motor speed,
                                not axle speed. I know we can get 27:1 and 30:1 reductions in the truck
                                towers, so space isn't a problem. It's much easier with mod 0.2 gears, but
                                my initial designs were with mod 0.3 gears since they can be had off the
                                shelf.

                                Scott Whitmire
                                whitmire@...
                              • Ed Scullin
                                Just a thought or two on powered units. A long time ago, there was a HO scale Box car that was powered. I remember seeing a train of about 150 cars. Would
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jul 10, 2000
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                                  Just a thought or two on powered units. A long time ago, there was a
                                  HO scale Box car that was powered. I remember seeing a train of about
                                  150 cars. Would it be possible to do this in Z (even if we used 50 foot
                                  cars). That way the locomotives could be dummies.
                                  I think that the way to go would be for the locos to be kits. Somebody
                                  will figure out how to assemble them for a profit for those without the
                                  skill necessary to build them theirself. Sort of like the Brass
                                  building guys do.
                                  I noticed the post from Reynard Wellman (Micron Art). Maybe we could
                                  get them to do the shells in kit form. What would it take in advance
                                  orders to get them to do the bodies? I'm sure that some of us would be
                                  willing to place orders. Leave the truck/power and frame to us to work
                                  out. Are you listening Renard?
                                  Has anybody thought about contacting Bob Olsen at PennZee, the Hopper
                                  cars he did have great detail.
                                  Will be off the net for the rest of the month, going to the land of Z
                                  and other places over there. See you next month.
                                  Ed Scullin
                                • Scott A. Whitmire
                                  ... Ok, I ll definitely work on the drive train design for GP and the SW. I ll be able to use all three, even though I really don t like high nose locos. I
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jul 10, 2000
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                                    At 7/10/00 01:46 PM , you wrote:
                                    >Thanks for the info Don
                                    >
                                    >Well, my friend owns his own resin casting business (Sylvan Scale Models)
                                    >Like I said, I'll look into getting prices. Currently, he only does N and
                                    >HO kits, but he expressed interest in Z scale shells if I could get the
                                    >patterns. Perhaps one of our brass people can help in this regard? I'd be
                                    >interested in even doing dummies as long as they can be powered at a future
                                    >date. As far as a modern GP goes, might I suggest the GP35 due to the flat
                                    >roofline. The vote seems to be set for a GP7/9, Modern GP and a SW7/1200.

                                    Ok, I'll definitely work on the drive train design for GP and the SW. I'll
                                    be able to use all three, even though I really don't like high nose locos.
                                    I could use about 10 SWs and eight or 10 GP35s (or GP40s).

                                    >Doing an etched brass master would be the first order of business, and
                                    >exactly how detailed would we want it? Rivets are almost out of the
                                    >question, but hood doors could be cast in. I'm seriously interested in
                                    >doing this, as are a number of others. I'll get back to the group with
                                    >quotes on shell prices tonight.

                                    Cool. Thank you. The doors, latches, and hinges would be sufficient
                                    detail. Rivets are certainly possible in etched brass. After all, they can
                                    get photolithography down to the sub-micron level. What I would do is
                                    start with some CAD drawings and use them as the masks for the brass
                                    etchings. It should be fairly easy to create the etchings. The drawings
                                    might be a simple matter of taking the HO scale drawings in the MR Diesel
                                    Locomotives Cyclopedia and scaling them down to Z. I basically did that
                                    with a copy machine (reduce them to 40% of original size, which comes
                                    out to just over 1:220 -- 1:200 was about 39.7% IIRC).

                                    If the etched brass pieces are used as masters for resin, then we
                                    probably don't want them assembled. But that's a matter for the
                                    experienced folks.



                                    >Regards,
                                    >Dan MacKellar
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >-----Original Message-----
                                    >From: dbouchard@... <dbouchard@...>
                                    >To: z_scale@egroups.com <z_scale@egroups.com>
                                    >Date: Monday, July 10, 2000 12:34 AM
                                    >Subject: Re: [z_scale] More thoughts on Z-scale Hood Units
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > >Dan,
                                    > >Resin might be the way to go "if you get a good master and someone who
                                    >knows "a lot" about resin, I think you might want to discuss this with Rob
                                    >Kluz, He knows a thing or two about resin casting and I'm sure he won't
                                    >mind,(too much) that I dropped his name.
                                    > > Also, You might be surprised at the cost of doing the bodies in brass as
                                    >a kit, If you laid it out right I think you could get 4-5 locos per sheet
                                    >and keep the cost reasonable, There are a couple of people on the list who
                                    >do brass and hopefully they will throw some info your way.
                                    > >I think its great you guys are working on this project, If there's anything
                                    >I can do let me know.
                                    > >I also would hope anyone with the skills needed to produce parts for loco's
                                    >would come forward and help out, if only by providing info.
                                    > >Respectfully,
                                    > >Don
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
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                                    > >
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                                    > >Z: model railroading on a smaller scale.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
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                                    >Z: model railroading on a smaller scale.
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                                    Scott Whitmire
                                    whitmire@...
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