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Low speed Operation

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  • John Cubbin
    Hi Reynard, After a quick search regarding the Heisler Shay you mentioned, I came across some really fascinating loco shots. I wonder if something like this
    Message 1 of 9 , Nov 3, 2002
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      Hi Reynard,

      After a quick search regarding the Heisler Shay you mentioned, I came
      across some really fascinating loco shots. I wonder if something like
      this Climax:

      http://www.geocities.com/logging_info/climax.jpg

      could be adapted to a standard Marklin 4/4 chassis? Now I really haven't
      done any kind of research as to what was standard and what was narrow
      gauge so I'm not sure if there were any standard gauge Climax or Shays.
      If a metal shell could be developed around this type of locomotive I
      think it would be very interesting.

      John
      http://www.ztrains.com
    • mike chenoweth
      John, RLW is coming out with one of these in white metal to fit over a Z MT F-7 patterned after my masters. Unfortunately it s in Nn3, but the concept is the
      Message 2 of 9 , Nov 3, 2002
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        John,
        RLW is coming out with one of these in white metal to fit over a Z MT F-7
        patterned after my masters. Unfortunately it's in Nn3, but the concept is
        the same. Shays and Heislers were used on both standard and narrow gauge
        roads.
        Mike

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "John Cubbin" <jcubbin@...>
        To: <z_scale@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 3:56 PM
        Subject: [z_scale] Low speed Operation


        > Hi Reynard,
        >
        > After a quick search regarding the Heisler Shay you mentioned, I came
        > across some really fascinating loco shots. I wonder if something like
        > this Climax:
        >
        > http://www.geocities.com/logging_info/climax.jpg
        >
        > could be adapted to a standard Marklin 4/4 chassis? Now I really haven't
        > done any kind of research as to what was standard and what was narrow
        > gauge so I'm not sure if there were any standard gauge Climax or Shays.
        > If a metal shell could be developed around this type of locomotive I
        > think it would be very interesting.
        >
        > John
        > http://www.ztrains.com
      • Reynard Wellman
        Hello John, Well, that s an unusual one. Very interesting. But not my cup of tea. The Shay that I am thinking of for Z scale would be one of the larger Lima
        Message 3 of 9 , Nov 3, 2002
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          Hello John,

          Well, that's an unusual one. Very interesting.
          But not my cup of tea.

          The Shay that I am thinking of for Z scale would
          be one of the larger Lima built ones like those
          delivered to the Texas & Pacific Railroad Co.
          back in the 30's for their East Texas timber hauling
          operations. This gorgeous locomotive had
          3 drive trucks and the great T & P colors such as a
          deep red cab, black boiler with a white smoke box.
          It has all the classic mechanisms and was
          heavy enough to out pull any 10 Wheeler
          or Mogul or American.

          Yes, the Nn3 crowd has been enjoying white metal
          castings of Shays for over 20 years now, some more
          successful than others.

          It could happen for Z. However - in brass, not white metal.
          And the chassis should be original. Why settle for
          half baked when it is as well worth your effort to enjoy
          something fully cooked? I'll stick to the recipe.

          I'd rather someone else made a shell to stick on an F7
          chassis. It just doesn't interest me.

          Take care,
          Reynard





          John Cubbin wrote:

          > Hi Reynard,
          >
          > After a quick search regarding the Heisler Shay you mentioned, I came
          > across some really fascinating loco shots. I wonder if something like
          > this Climax:
          >
          > http://www.geocities.com/logging_info/climax.jpg
          >
          > could be adapted to a standard Marklin 4/4 chassis? Now I really
          > haven't
          > done any kind of research as to what was standard and what was narrow
          > gauge so I'm not sure if there were any standard gauge Climax or
          > Shays.
          > If a metal shell could be developed around this type of locomotive I
          > think it would be very interesting.
          >
          > John
          > http://www.ztrains.com
          >
          >
          > "Z" WARNING! HANDLE WITH CARE! Highly addictive in Small
          > DoseZ!
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • de Champeaux Dominique
          ... Hi Reynard, Hi John (Cubbin). Very interresting indeed this topic about the performances of Z scale steamers. But are you sure that the apparent lack of
          Message 4 of 9 , Nov 3, 2002
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            --- Reynard Wellman <micron@...> a écrit :
            > Hello John,
            >
            > Good ideas on both counts. However, I would not want
            > extra power readily available when locos start to
            > sputter
            > and stall --it's too tempting to push the throttle.
            >
            > The other good point: Independent trucks are better
            > able to
            > negotiate tight radius' and poor conductive areas.
            > That's why it might behoove us steam
            > fans to campaign for a Heisler shay (standard gauge
            > of course) Only trouble is that these little gems
            > have
            > a somewhat slender boiler and it would take some
            > serious engineering to hide the electric motor in
            > it. And
            > they wouldn't have much pulling power-- you need
            > some kind of stiction* to haul those logging trains
            > up and
            > down those mountains.
            >
            > I anticipate that a Y6B or a Challenger with
            > independent
            > bogies would be nice performers in Z scale--as long
            > a you don't try to operate them on tiny layouts.
            >
            > Something to ponder.
            >
            > Reynard
            >


            Hi Reynard, Hi John (Cubbin). Very interresting indeed
            this topic about the performances of Z scale steamers.
            But are you sure that the apparent lack of power of
            steamers (I have never operated a Z scale sample of
            them) is due to the single chassis design? when
            looking at what happens in other scales, I have never
            heard of lack of tractive effort with steamers,
            especialy in N and HO scale...When reading Model
            Railroader, I always fall on various scale layouts
            showing steamers with heavy trains behind....In my
            case I think the main problem with existing design,
            mainly Marklin if I understand (and it was the subject
            several days ago if I remember), is:
            1-lack of weight
            2-only the first and the last powered axles are in
            contact with the rails.
            So maybe these engines should be upgraded in the hands
            of "performant" kitbashers? Is someone in this list in
            permanent contact with Marklin to ask them if they
            would change their steamers' design? Or, to solve this
            problem, I think it would be possible to design a
            dummy steamer, powered by its tender. I saw this
            design when I was a kid on an HO model (european
            manufacturer Jouef, defunct now).
            Cheers
            Dominique

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          • Jeremy Brandon
            ... Hi Dominique. I ve always thought the problem with steamers is too many gears . As a kid I played with Meccano (an English metal construction toy) a lot
            Message 5 of 9 , Nov 4, 2002
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              --- In z_scale@y..., de Champeaux Dominique <ddechamp71@y...> wrote:
              > But are you sure that the apparent lack of power of
              > steamers (I have never operated a Z scale sample of
              > them) is due to the single chassis design? when
              > looking at what happens in other scales, I have never
              > heard of lack of tractive effort with steamers,
              > especialy in N and HO scale...When reading Model
              > Railroader, I always fall on various scale layouts
              > showing steamers with heavy trains behind....In my
              > case I think the main problem with existing design,
              > mainly Marklin if I understand (and it was the subject
              > several days ago if I remember), is:
              > 1-lack of weight
              > 2-only the first and the last powered axles are in
              > contact with the rails.

              Hi Dominique. I've always thought the problem with steamers is "too
              many gears". As a kid I played with Meccano (an English metal
              construction toy) a lot and whenever my design had too many gears, it
              didn't work - too much friction or too much back-lash. So I've just
              done some measurements of the internal friction of my locos. Internal
              friction is what the motor has to drive against when the loco is
              running light.

              It turns out to be quite easy to measure internal friction. Use a
              pulse-power controller and look at the counter-EMF generated by the
              motor between the pulses (you need an oscilloscope to see it).
              Counter-EMF is exactly proportional to speed, so what you see is the
              deceleration caused by the friction - a pulse winds the motor up to
              some speed, then it slows down until the next pulse winds it up
              again. I measured roughly by what percentage the motor slowed down in
              a 10 millisecond gap between pulses.

              Very interesting! The Swiss E44 electic loco slowed down by 20%, the
              new BR212 diesel shunter/Rangierlok/switcher by 5%, a Faulhaber
              powered wagon with a flywheel by 2%, but the big steamers (2-8-2 and
              4-6-2) by an incredible 50%, also the 2-6-0 by 50%, and the 0-6-0 by
              30%. My conclusion is that the steamers have 2 or 3 times the
              internal friction of the diesel and electric locos.

              If it is "too many gears" causing this effect, then it is a peculiar
              Märklin-Z problem as only that design has such a vast gear train to
              the wheels.

              Or does someone else have a different theory? Jeremy.
            • Reynard Wellman
              Hello Jeremy and Dominique, You guys are both right. Friction is a factor and so is good chassis engineering. But the key advantage that our Z scale diesels
              Message 6 of 9 , Nov 4, 2002
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                Hello Jeremy and Dominique,

                You guys are both right. Friction is a factor and so
                is good chassis engineering. But the key advantage that
                our Z scale diesels have is the extra space within the
                shell to run large flywheels. Flywheels are key to smooth
                locomotive performance and should be attempted even
                within the confines of Z scale steam boilers.

                However, I have had some experience with well designed
                gear boxes made by Micro-Mo and they have incredible
                torque when the ratio is reduced. I will continue to
                experiment with these miniature gear boxes and let
                you know if they are as suitable to steam engines.
                They might substitute for a big flywheel without needing
                as much space.

                Best regards,
                Reynard

                Jeremy Brandon wrote:

                > --- In z_scale@y..., de Champeaux Dominique <ddechamp71@y...> wrote:
                > > But are you sure that the apparent lack of power of
                > > steamers (I have never operated a Z scale sample of
                > > them) is due to the single chassis design? when
                > > looking at what happens in other scales, I have never
                > > heard of lack of tractive effort with steamers,
                > > especialy in N and HO scale...When reading Model
                > > Railroader, I always fall on various scale layouts
                > > showing steamers with heavy trains behind....In my
                > > case I think the main problem with existing design,
                > > mainly Marklin if I understand (and it was the subject
                > > several days ago if I remember), is:
                > > 1-lack of weight
                > > 2-only the first and the last powered axles are in
                > > contact with the rails.
                >
                > Hi Dominique. I've always thought the problem with steamers is "too
                > many gears". As a kid I played with Meccano (an English metal
                > construction toy) a lot and whenever my design had too many gears, it
                > didn't work - too much friction or too much back-lash. So I've just
                > done some measurements of the internal friction of my locos. Internal
                > friction is what the motor has to drive against when the loco is
                > running light.
                >
                > It turns out to be quite easy to measure internal friction. Use a
                > pulse-power controller and look at the counter-EMF generated by the
                > motor between the pulses (you need an oscilloscope to see it).
                > Counter-EMF is exactly proportional to speed, so what you see is the
                > deceleration caused by the friction - a pulse winds the motor up to
                > some speed, then it slows down until the next pulse winds it up
                > again. I measured roughly by what percentage the motor slowed down in
                > a 10 millisecond gap between pulses.
                >
                > Very interesting! The Swiss E44 electic loco slowed down by 20%, the
                > new BR212 diesel shunter/Rangierlok/switcher by 5%, a Faulhaber
                > powered wagon with a flywheel by 2%, but the big steamers (2-8-2 and
                > 4-6-2) by an incredible 50%, also the 2-6-0 by 50%, and the 0-6-0 by
                > 30%. My conclusion is that the steamers have 2 or 3 times the
                > internal friction of the diesel and electric locos.
                >
                > If it is "too many gears" causing this effect, then it is a peculiar
                > Märklin-Z problem as only that design has such a vast gear train to
                > the wheels.
                >
                > Or does someone else have a different theory? Jeremy.
                >
                >
                > "Z" WARNING! HANDLE WITH CARE! Highly addictive in Small
                > DoseZ!
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


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