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Front end alignment shims, '87 Yugo

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  • yugo35776
    Need to know what your recommendations are for the amount of shims to set the caster/camber on an 87 Yugo. The car has a lot of torque steer. I m going to
    Message 1 of 7 , Apr 1 7:39 PM
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      Need to know what your recommendations are for the amount of shims to set the caster/camber on an '87 Yugo. The car has a lot of torque steer. I'm going to replace the worn-out rubbers on the sway bar ends where they attach to the lower arm, and will need to know how many shims front and rear of the arm, for an initial setting, to get proper caster. Thanks, David.
    • Art Hughes
      What ever shims you have on it now is a start point. On my 87, I have 4 shims on the bar, in front of the control arm. This came out to max stock Caster,
      Message 2 of 7 , Apr 2 3:18 AM
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        What ever shims you have on it now is a start point. On my 87, I have 4 shims on the bar, in front of the control arm.
        This came out to max stock Caster, which is all I'd ever want. A little too much self straightening of the steering wheel after turning, but does help lessen the dive on heavy braking.
         
        If you have more than stock horse power, no matter what alignment you use, it will still torque steer.
        However, loose, worn parts, will make it worse.
        Critical is the front "cross member" which can rust and pull loose from the chassis. The sway bar attaches to this box, and can cause insane amounts of torque steer "on" throttle, and snap back on "off" throttle.
        The engineering of the Yugo/Fiat 128, is the same. 2 different length axles, 1 long, 1 short, is the problem.
         
        The same car with equal length axles is near zero toque steer, with about 80 HP.
         
        Art Hughes  Columbus, Ohio  USA
         
         Visit   www.wvaanne.com   Art's List of Family Connections, WV Rt  87
                             Genealogy in Jackson and Mason Counties, WV
         
                                            



        From: yugo35776 <Edselsouth1@...>
        To: yugounitedgvowners2@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sun, April 1, 2012 10:39:04 PM
        Subject: [YugoUnitedGVOwners] Front end alignment shims, '87 Yugo

         

        Need to know what your recommendations are for the amount of shims to set the caster/camber on an '87 Yugo. The car has a lot of torque steer. I'm going to replace the worn-out rubbers on the sway bar ends where they attach to the lower arm, and will need to know how many shims front and rear of the arm, for an initial setting, to get proper caster. Thanks, David.

      • Edselsouth1@aol.com
        Art, The car has some shims, front and rear of the control arm, and the car actually goes down the road ok. Just has a lot of torque steer on throttle, and
        Message 3 of 7 , Apr 2 6:28 PM
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          Art,    The car has some shims, front and rear of the control arm, and the car actually goes down the road ok. Just has a lot of torque steer on throttle, and the snap back on letting off. The rubbers are worn a good bit, and I believe that is what is causing the majority of the problem. Caster by a magnetic gauge is within specs. Do you know if new rubbers are available, or will I have to improvise? This is a low mileage (43K) car, and always garaged in the south (Alabama), so rust is not a problem. Thanks for your reply.  David. 



          -----Original Message-----
          From: Art Hughes <pro4art@...>
          To: yugounitedgvowners2 <yugounitedgvowners2@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Mon, Apr 2, 2012 5:18 am
          Subject: Re: [YugoUnitedGVOwners] Front end alignment shims, '87 Yugo



          What ever shims you have on it now is a start point. On my 87, I have 4 shims on the bar, in front of the control arm.
          This came out to max stock Caster, which is all I'd ever want. A little too much self straightening of the steering wheel after turning, but does help lessen the dive on heavy braking.
           
          If you have more than stock horse power, no matter what alignment you use, it will still torque steer.
          However, loose, worn parts, will make it worse.
          Critical is the front "cross member" which can rust and pull loose from the chassis. The sway bar attaches to this box, and can cause insane amounts of torque steer "on" throttle, and snap back on "off" throttle.
          The engineering of the Yugo/Fiat 128, is the same. 2 different length axles, 1 long, 1 short, is the problem.
           
          The same car with equal length axles is near zero toque steer, with about 80 HP.
           
          Art Hughes  Columbus, Ohio  USA
           
           Visit   www.wvaanne.com   Art's List of Family Connections, WV Rt  87
                               Genealogy in Jackson and Mason Counties, WV
           
                                              



          From: yugo35776 <Edselsouth1@...>
          To: yugounitedgvowners2@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sun, April 1, 2012 10:39:04 PM
          Subject: [YugoUnitedGVOwners] Front end alignment shims, '87 Yugo

           
          Need to know what your recommendations are for the amount of shims to set the caster/camber on an '87 Yugo. The car has a lot of torque steer. I'm going to replace the worn-out rubbers on the sway bar ends where they attach to the lower arm, and will need to know how many shims front and rear of the arm, for an initial setting, to get proper caster. Thanks, David.



        • Art Hughes
          David The shims in front of the control arm adjust the Caster. The ones behind the arm are just stored there. Jay at Orion has the rubbers and the bushing
          Message 4 of 7 , Apr 2 7:07 PM
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            David
            The shims in front of the control arm adjust the Caster. The ones behind the arm are just stored there.
            Jay at Orion has the rubbers and the bushing inside the rubber, or he should have. Midwest-Bayless may also, you'd have to call to check. I don't work in parts there.
             
            Don't count on no rust. I have a 1987 with 12,500 miles, and have some beginning in the bottom of the tail gate, bottom edge of hood, and around one washer nozzle.. A Yugo will rust in scattered areas  for no reason. Most likely, your control arm rubbers cause the majority, but I have some T steer in my car , on sudden hard accel. And some snap back. Engine is dead stock, and control arms are good.
             
            A prev Yugo I had was a 1987, with a Fiat Strada engine and trans, which had equal length axles. The left axle is about the same length as the 87 axle, but the right had a supported jack shaft that stopped at the pulley end of the engine
            .
            At that point, an axle the length of the left was attached. Both axles had CV joints on each end. X1/9 axles use a similar joint in the later models, and the stub axles and holding plates in the X1/9 are what would be used to convert a Yugo. Haven't explored this more, and haven't checked to see if Lancia Zagato parts will work, as they have something similar.
             
            Anway, that's what i had in my 1987, and it was about 95% T steer free. Had a FI 1500 Strada engine, but I had a slightly larger Fiat carb I used on it, rather than plumb in a high pressure fuel pump, install the Injector harness and box, and air filter. With a modified intake manifold, larger exhaust system, I rated it about 80HP.
            Art Hughes  Columbus, Ohio  USA
             
             Visit   www.wvaanne.com   Art's List of Family Connections, WV Rt  87
                                 Genealogy in Jackson and Mason Counties, WV
             
                                                



            From: "Edselsouth1@..." <Edselsouth1@...>
            To: yugounitedgvowners2@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Mon, April 2, 2012 9:28:29 PM
            Subject: Re: [YugoUnitedGVOwners] Front end alignment shims, '87 Yugo

             

            Art,    The car has some shims, front and rear of the control arm, and the car actually goes down the road ok. Just has a lot of torque steer on throttle, and the snap back on letting off. The rubbers are worn a good bit, and I believe that is what is causing the majority of the problem. Caster by a magnetic gauge is within specs. Do you know if new rubbers are available, or will I have to improvise? This is a low mileage (43K) car, and always garaged in the south (Alabama), so rust is not a problem. Thanks for your reply.  David. 




            -----Original Message-----
            From: Art Hughes <pro4art@...>
            To: yugounitedgvowners2 <yugounitedgvowners2@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Mon, Apr 2, 2012 5:18 am
            Subject: Re: [YugoUnitedGVOwners] Front end alignment shims, '87 Yugo



            What ever shims you have on it now is a start point. On my 87, I have 4 shims on the bar, in front of the control arm.
            This came out to max stock Caster, which is all I'd ever want. A little too much self straightening of the steering wheel after turning, but does help lessen the dive on heavy braking.
             
            If you have more than stock horse power, no matter what alignment you use, it will still torque steer.
            However, loose, worn parts, will make it worse.
            Critical is the front "cross member" which can rust and pull loose from the chassis. The sway bar attaches to this box, and can cause insane amounts of torque steer "on" throttle, and snap back on "off" throttle.
            The engineering of the Yugo/Fiat 128, is the same. 2 different length axles, 1 long, 1 short, is the problem.
             
            The same car with equal length axles is near zero toque steer, with about 80 HP.
             
            Art Hughes  Columbus, Ohio  USA
             
             Visit   www.wvaanne.com   Art's List of Family Connections, WV Rt  87
                                 Genealogy in Jackson and Mason Counties, WV
             
                                                



            From: yugo35776 <Edselsouth1@...>
            To: yugounitedgvowners2@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sun, April 1, 2012 10:39:04 PM
            Subject: [YugoUnitedGVOwners] Front end alignment shims, '87 Yugo

             
            Need to know what your recommendations are for the amount of shims to set the caster/camber on an '87 Yugo. The car has a lot of torque steer. I'm going to replace the worn-out rubbers on the sway bar ends where they attach to the lower arm, and will need to know how many shims front and rear of the arm, for an initial setting, to get proper caster. Thanks, David.



          • Edselsouth1@aol.com
            Art, I ll contact Jay @ Orion about the parts needed. I ll probably only go w/ 2 shims at the front, as that s what is there now. I ll let you know how it
            Message 5 of 7 , Apr 2 8:02 PM
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              Art, 

                     I'll contact Jay @ Orion about the parts needed. I'll probably only go w/ 2 shims at the front, as that's what is there now. I'll let you know how it turns out. The car has the close to stock tire size, 155-80-13's,  on steel wheels.

                    My GVX has >300K, and has had the rubbers replaced once, and other than that and timing belts, no problems. It has no torque steer, however, it has 155-70-13 tires and Yugo aluminum wheels. Sits a bit different than the GV, as well as handling differently.
              I have played around w/ the front end alignment a bit, but again, it won't be the same as the GV.

                   Always glad to discuss Yugos/Fiats, etc.

                   Thanks for your time and information.

              David.


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Art Hughes <pro4art@...>
              To: yugounitedgvowners2 <yugounitedgvowners2@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Mon, Apr 2, 2012 9:07 pm
              Subject: Re: [YugoUnitedGVOwners] Front end alignment shims, '87 Yugo



              David
              The shims in front of the control arm adjust the Caster. The ones behind the arm are just stored there.
              Jay at Orion has the rubbers and the bushing inside the rubber, or he should have. Midwest-Bayless may also, you'd have to call to check. I don't work in parts there.
               
              Don't count on no rust. I have a 1987 with 12,500 miles, and have some beginning in the bottom of the tail gate, bottom edge of hood, and around one washer nozzle.. A Yugo will rust in scattered areas  for no reason. Most likely, your control arm rubbers cause the majority, but I have some T steer in my car , on sudden hard accel. And some snap back. Engine is dead stock, and control arms are good.
               
              A prev Yugo I had was a 1987, with a Fiat Strada engine and trans, which had equal length axles. The left axle is about the same length as the 87 axle, but the right had a supported jack shaft that stopped at the pulley end of the engine
              .
              At that point, an axle the length of the left was attached. Both axles had CV joints on each end. X1/9 axles use a similar joint in the later models, and the stub axles and holding plates in the X1/9 are what would be used to convert a Yugo. Haven't explored this more, and haven't checked to see if Lancia Zagato parts will work, as they have something similar.
               
              Anway, that's what i had in my 1987, and it was about 95% T steer free. Had a FI 1500 Strada engine, but I had a slightly larger Fiat carb I used on it, rather than plumb in a high pressure fuel pump, install the Injector harness and box, and air filter. With a modified intake manifold, larger exhaust system, I rated it about 80HP.
              Art Hughes  Columbus, Ohio  USA
               
               Visit   www.wvaanne.com   Art's List of Family Connections, WV Rt  87
                                   Genealogy in Jackson and Mason Counties, WV
               
                                                  



              From: "Edselsouth1@..." <Edselsouth1@...>
              To: yugounitedgvowners2@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, April 2, 2012 9:28:29 PM
              Subject: Re: [YugoUnitedGVOwners] Front end alignment shims, '87 Yugo

               
              Art,    The car has some shims, front and rear of the control arm, and the car actually goes down the road ok. Just has a lot of torque steer on throttle, and the snap back on letting off. The rubbers are worn a good bit, and I believe that is what is causing the majority of the problem. Caster by a magnetic gauge is within specs. Do you know if new rubbers are available, or will I have to improvise? This is a low mileage (43K) car, and always garaged in the south (Alabama), so rust is not a problem. Thanks for your reply.  David. 



              -----Original Message-----
              From: Art Hughes <pro4art@...>
              To: yugounitedgvowners2 <yugounitedgvowners2@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Mon, Apr 2, 2012 5:18 am
              Subject: Re: [YugoUnitedGVOwners] Front end alignment shims, '87 Yugo



              What ever shims you have on it now is a start point. On my 87, I have 4 shims on the bar, in front of the control arm.
              This came out to max stock Caster, which is all I'd ever want. A little too much self straightening of the steering wheel after turning, but does help lessen the dive on heavy braking.
               
              If you have more than stock horse power, no matter what alignment you use, it will still torque steer.
              However, loose, worn parts, will make it worse.
              Critical is the front "cross member" which can rust and pull loose from the chassis. The sway bar attaches to this box, and can cause insane amounts of torque steer "on" throttle, and snap back on "off" throttle.
              The engineering of the Yugo/Fiat 128, is the same. 2 different length axles, 1 long, 1 short, is the problem.
               
              The same car with equal length axles is near zero toque steer, with about 80 HP.
               
              Art Hughes  Columbus, Ohio  USA
               
               Visit   www.wvaanne.com   Art's List of Family Connections, WV Rt  87
                                   Genealogy in Jackson and Mason Counties, WV
               
                                                  



              From: yugo35776 <Edselsouth1@...>
              To: yugounitedgvowners2@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, April 1, 2012 10:39:04 PM
              Subject: [YugoUnitedGVOwners] Front end alignment shims, '87 Yugo

               
              Need to know what your recommendations are for the amount of shims to set the caster/camber on an '87 Yugo. The car has a lot of torque steer. I'm going to replace the worn-out rubbers on the sway bar ends where they attach to the lower arm, and will need to know how many shims front and rear of the arm, for an initial setting, to get proper caster. Thanks, David.





            • Art Hughes
              Just a tire comment. We have in our shop a 1976? Fiat X1/9, under 24,000 miles, that is as perfect as you can imagine. The car has dirt in the carb, which Yugo
              Message 6 of 7 , Apr 7 7:27 PM
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                Just a tire comment.
                We have in our shop a 1976? Fiat X1/9, under 24,000 miles, that is as perfect as you can imagine.
                The car has dirt in the carb, which Yugo owners know all about. After repairing it, it was test driven, and found to have a very serious handling problem. It absolutely got very scary at freeway speeds, 65+ MPH with constant tail wagging, to the extent that wet weather could be a danger to drive it..
                It has like new 155/80/13 tires on it. We pumped the tires up 5 pounds over the stock, (to 33/36) and it got slightly better, but so uncomfortable to drive. We installed a used set of 185/60/13 tires on late x1/9 rims, and it was instantly perfect, very controllable, and felt very "planted".
                 
                The correct tire size on a late X1/9 is 165/70/13. Same OD (within .2 of an inch) of a 155, thes org Yugo tire size. You can also use 175/60/13 that are a little easier to find, or order 185/60s online. I took 175/70/13s off my car, they rubbed very slightly on the plastic fender liner. With 185/60s, I could feel a difference in increased stabilty. Tall side wall tires usually cause handling problems on small cars. If not, you are driving very conservativley and missing some fun, and safety for accident avoidance.
                 
                On a Yugo, I would think you'd have handling issues with 155/80s. Especially at any speeds into freeway exit ramps. I once had tall sidewall tires on a Yugo, and it would not go in a straight line to save my a**. On ramps, it would turn in OK, then part way thru, would turn in even more all by itself, a lot, and I had to steer away from the turn. Scared the heck out of me the first time I dived into a turn at just medium fast speed.  The tall sidewallls fold over under load, you input more steering to accomidate that, then the tire pops back upright, and you have too much steering input, and drive off the inside of the turn.
                 
                Shims on the sway bar set the caster, and unless someone threw away the shims stored right under the nut, you should have more there. If the car may have been aligned with sloppy rubbers, and you install new ones, your Caster may be too much with only 2 shims in front of the control arm..
                Art Hughes  Columbus, Ohio  USA
                 
                 Visit   www.wvaanne.com   Art's List of Family Connections, WV Rt  87
                                     Genealogy in Jackson and Mason Counties, WV
                 
                                                    



                From: "Edselsouth1@..." <Edselsouth1@...>
                To: yugounitedgvowners2@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Mon, April 2, 2012 11:02:08 PM
                Subject: Re: [YugoUnitedGVOwners] Front end alignment shims, '87 Yugo

                 

                Art, 

                       I'll contact Jay @ Orion about the parts needed. I'll probably only go w/ 2 shims at the front, as that's what is there now. I'll let you know how it turns out. The car has the close to stock tire size, 155-80-13's,  on steel wheels.

                      My GVX has >300K, and has had the rubbers replaced once, and other than that and timing belts, no problems. It has no torque steer, however, it has 155-70-13 tires and Yugo aluminum wheels. Sits a bit different than the GV, as well as handling differently.
                I have played around w/ the front end alignment a bit, but again, it won't be the same as the GV.

                     Always glad to discuss Yugos/Fiats, etc.

                     Thanks for your time and information.

                David.


                Recent Activity:
                .

              • Edselsouth1@aol.com
                Art, I haven t had a chance to get back to the Yugo alignment situation as of yet, as house construction has taken precedence. That, and a troublesome xj6
                Message 7 of 7 , Apr 7 9:49 PM
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                  Art,   I haven't had a chance to get back to the Yugo alignment situation as of yet, as house construction has taken precedence. That, and a troublesome xj6 Jaguar (project & money pit). I haven't looked to see what amount of shims are remaining under the front end. The suspension, etc. was out for an engine transplant about a year ago, and hasn't been driven since, except for a short road test. Out of the country at present, so it will be at the end of the month before any progress will be made on the Yugo. thanks for all of your information and suggestions.  David.



                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Art Hughes <pro4art@...>
                  To: yugounitedgvowners2 <yugounitedgvowners2@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Sat, Apr 7, 2012 9:27 pm
                  Subject: Re: [YugoUnitedGVOwners] Front end alignment shims, '87 Yugo



                  Just a tire comment.
                  We have in our shop a 1976? Fiat X1/9, under 24,000 miles, that is as perfect as you can imagine.
                  The car has dirt in the carb, which Yugo owners know all about. After repairing it, it was test driven, and found to have a very serious handling problem. It absolutely got very scary at freeway speeds, 65+ MPH with constant tail wagging, to the extent that wet weather could be a danger to drive it..
                  It has like new 155/80/13 tires on it. We pumped the tires up 5 pounds over the stock, (to 33/36) and it got slightly better, but so uncomfortable to drive. We installed a used set of 185/60/13 tires on late x1/9 rims, and it was instantly perfect, very controllable, and felt very "planted".
                   
                  The correct tire size on a late X1/9 is 165/70/13. Same OD (within .2 of an inch) of a 155, thes org Yugo tire size. You can also use 175/60/13 that are a little easier to find, or order 185/60s online. I took 175/70/13s off my car, they rubbed very slightly on the plastic fender liner. With 185/60s, I could feel a difference in increased stabilty. Tall side wall tires usually cause handling problems on small cars. If not, you are driving very conservativley and missing some fun, and safety for accident avoidance.
                   
                  On a Yugo, I would think you'd have handling issues with 155/80s. Especially at any speeds into freeway exit ramps. I once had tall sidewall tires on a Yugo, and it would not go in a straight line to save my a**. On ramps, it would turn in OK, then part way thru, would turn in even more all by itself, a lot, and I had to steer away from the turn. Scared the heck out of me the first time I dived into a turn at just medium fast speed.  The tall sidewallls fold over under load, you input more steering to accomidate that, then the tire pops back upright, and you have too much steering input, and drive off the inside of the turn.
                   
                  Shims on the sway bar set the caster, and unless someone threw away the shims stored right under the nut, you should have more there. If the car may have been aligned with sloppy rubbers, and you install new ones, your Caster may be too much with only 2 shims in front of the control arm..
                  Art Hughes  Columbus, Ohio  USA
                   
                   Visit   www.wvaanne.com   Art's List of Family Connections, WV Rt  87
                                       Genealogy in Jackson and Mason Counties, WV
                   
                                                      



                  From: "Edselsouth1@..." <Edselsouth1@...>
                  To: yugounitedgvowners2@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Mon, April 2, 2012 11:02:08 PM
                  Subject: Re: [YugoUnitedGVOwners] Front end alignment shims, '87 Yugo

                   
                  Art, 

                         I'll contact Jay @ Orion about the parts needed. I'll probably only go w/ 2 shims at the front, as that's what is there now. I'll let you know how it turns out. The car has the close to stock tire size, 155-80-13's,  on steel wheels.

                        My GVX has >300K, and has had the rubbers replaced once, and other than that and timing belts, no problems. It has no torque steer, however, it has 155-70-13 tires and Yugo aluminum wheels. Sits a bit different than the GV, as well as handling differently.
                  I have played around w/ the front end alignment a bit, but again, it won't be the same as the GV.

                       Always glad to discuss Yugos/Fiats, etc.

                       Thanks for your time and information.

                  David.


                  Recent Activity:
                  .



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