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Re: O'Sensei vs. Gun Squad

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  • oamirza
    ... They ... other guy ... hit. ... and ... to ... how ... any of ... quickly, ... is ... threw ... simply, ... this ... have ... using ... willing to ...
    Message 1 of 21 , Oct 1, 2002
      --- In yoshinkan@y..., Chris Young <christophery@c...> wrote:
      > I read several years ago on the Aikido list about a couple of
      > practicioners in Alaska who got into a debate about this topic.
      They
      > decided to test the theory out with an experiment. The guy who
      > maintained it was possible donned a bullet proof vest, and the
      other guy
      > shot at him with a .22. (can't help but thinking how interesting it
      > must be to live in Alaska) Anyway, the guy wearing the vest, got
      hit.
      > Apparently that hurts.
      >
      > My take on the whole thing is this;
      >
      > Ueshiba understood human psycology very well, as well as body motion
      > etc. He knew that none of the gunmen beleived that he could do it,
      and
      > when he stood at the target he confirmed this by looking down range
      to
      > see that none of the guns were actually aimed at him. I'm not sure
      how
      > easy this is to do, but I've always suspected that if you can see
      any of
      > the length of a gun barrel pointed at you, it will miss. If you are
      > being aimed at you should be able to see only the very end of the
      > barrel. He had some interesting way of covering alot of ground
      quickly,
      > who knows, he may have been moving toward them in some manner that
      is
      > hard to detect well before the triggers were pulled, and simply
      threw
      > one of the gunmen in the confusion of noise and smoke. I say
      simply,
      > but I'm quite certain this is way beyond my ability. I think that
      this
      > is confirmed by the episode with the hunter.
      >
      > The interesting thing about this, is that I don't beleive he could
      have
      > done it in a non lethal environment. If you were to reproduce it
      using
      > a vest, or paintball guns, then the shooter would aim with intent.
      > Ueshiba was banking on the fact that non of the shooters were
      willing to
      > kill him just to prove a point.


      First, thanks to the poster of the story.

      Regarding the explanation above, two things come to mind.

      If what you're saying is true, then Ueshiba was a bald-faced liar in
      the comments he made to Shioda. Does that square with what we know
      about him? I suppose it's possible, but a man that dedicated to
      spiritual practise and character development is not the kind of
      person I would expect to blatantly deceive his star pupil and
      respected friend with a bogus story like that.

      Secondly, I think that your explanation is somewhat convincing for
      the first time that the six marksmen tried to hit him (but then why
      would these people have even taken him up on the offer if they didn't
      want to prove something?) It is less so for the second time: then
      they must have felt challenged to some degree by their failure the
      first time.

      But your explanation does tie in well with Ueshiba's comments to the
      second marksman, the great master.

      How he could have covered that distance so instantaneously still
      mystifies me.

      Best,

      Omar
    • jkl@powerup.com.au
      After training last night I had a differing view. We are trying to understand it from our current level of understanding with what we know now. ie. when we
      Message 2 of 21 , Oct 2, 2002
        After training last night I had a differing view. We are trying to understand it from our current level of understanding with what we know now. ie. when we start aikido we learn stuff and then a little while later we learn that that stuff was very basic. We are trying to understand O'Sensei's stuff from a beginners understanding. I don't even think we could start to understand - which is why you read artcile like that and think I have a long way to go as a person and as a practitioner of Aikido.

        Osu

        JE
        >
        > From: "oamirza" <oamirza@...>
        > Subject: [yoshinkan] Re: O'Sensei vs. Gun Squad
        > Date: 02/10/2002 16:03:50
        > To: yoshinkan@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > --- In yoshinkan@y..., Chris Young <christophery@c...> wrote:
        > > I read several years ago on the Aikido list about a couple of
        > > practicioners in Alaska who got into a debate about this topic.
        > They
        > > decided to test the theory out with an experiment. The guy who
        > > maintained it was possible donned a bullet proof vest, and the
        > other guy
        > > shot at him with a .22. (can't help but thinking how interesting it
        > > must be to live in Alaska) Anyway, the guy wearing the vest, got
        > hit.
        > > Apparently that hurts.
        > >
        > > My take on the whole thing is this;
        > >
        > > Ueshiba understood human psycology very well, as well as body motion
        > > etc. He knew that none of the gunmen beleived that he could do it,
        > and
        > > when he stood at the target he confirmed this by looking down range
        > to
        > > see that none of the guns were actually aimed at him. I'm not sure
        > how
        > > easy this is to do, but I've always suspected that if you can see
        > any of
        > > the length of a gun barrel pointed at you, it will miss. If you are
        > > being aimed at you should be able to see only the very end of the
        > > barrel. He had some interesting way of covering alot of ground
        > quickly,
        > > who knows, he may have been moving toward them in some manner that
        > is
        > > hard to detect well before the triggers were pulled, and simply
        > threw
        > > one of the gunmen in the confusion of noise and smoke. I say
        > simply,
        > > but I'm quite certain this is way beyond my ability. I think that
        > this
        > > is confirmed by the episode with the hunter.
        > >
        > > The interesting thing about this, is that I don't beleive he could
        > have
        > > done it in a non lethal environment. If you were to reproduce it
        > using
        > > a vest, or paintball guns, then the shooter would aim with intent.
        > > Ueshiba was banking on the fact that non of the shooters were
        > willing to
        > > kill him just to prove a point.
        >
        >
        > First, thanks to the poster of the story.
        >
        > Regarding the explanation above, two things come to mind.
        >
        > If what you're saying is true, then Ueshiba was a bald-faced liar in
        > the comments he made to Shioda. Does that square with what we know
        > about him? I suppose it's possible, but a man that dedicated to
        > spiritual practise and character development is not the kind of
        > person I would expect to blatantly deceive his star pupil and
        > respected friend with a bogus story like that.
        >
        > Secondly, I think that your explanation is somewhat convincing for
        > the first time that the six marksmen tried to hit him (but then why
        > would these people have even taken him up on the offer if they didn't
        > want to prove something?) It is less so for the second time: then
        > they must have felt challenged to some degree by their failure the
        > first time.
        >
        > But your explanation does tie in well with Ueshiba's comments to the
        > second marksman, the great master.
        >
        > How he could have covered that distance so instantaneously still
        > mystifies me.
        >
        > Best,
        >
        > Omar
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
        >

        This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au
      • nf_marr
        Hi, I am a young Yoshinkan student from Portugal. Concerning this discussion about Guns I would like you to think about something: 1) Ueshiba s Sensei training
        Message 3 of 21 , Oct 2, 2002
          Hi,

          I am a young Yoshinkan student from Portugal.
          Concerning this discussion about Guns I would like you to think about
          something:

          1) Ueshiba's Sensei training and knowledge goes beyond anything we
          can understand at this stage. Let's try to stick to some facts.

          2) Olimpic marksmen usually train at steady targets and take about
          10-15 seconds to make a bull's eye shot. Did you ever try to shoot a
          moving target at 25m with a bb or paintball gun? Hard isn't it.
          And common sense shoes us that when someone is being aimed at, one
          should always keep moving....

          3) The hunter's skills and perception is completely different! He was
          a top marksman! His training was is life. So he couldn't afford to
          miss any shots at all

          4) Confidence! Believe in yourself but....If you really want to
          achieve anything you can only expect to achieve it after consistent
          hard training! Making yourself a sitting duck won't help (never mind
          how interesting living in Alasca is).

          5) I am not an expert in 1900's fire weapons, however pistols and
          rifles have quite differences, still today. If you have a pistol and
          rifle "BB" (air pressure gun) try to hit a standing target at 10m. It should be harder to hit it with the pistol.... Now using a rope or
          windpower make the target move.... is the pistol missing most shots??

          6) Once again: Train Hard. Improve your stance, kihon dosa, and
          aikido skills. When the time comes develop your randori techniques
          (with empty hands, tantu and bokken).

          7) Don't aim any guns to anybody. It doesn't matter how harmless (bb
          gun, paintball gun, .22, aparently unloaded 9mm or rifle,...) it
          seems... you may sustain lethal damage!!!

          8) By the way, the story is genuine and impressive, but like they say on TV: "Don't try this at home"


          Aiki greetings,
          Nuno
        • Chris Young
          In response to Omar s comments, was Ueshiba lying? Well if he was, he wouldn t be the first sensei who over stated his abilities to a student. Everything
          Message 4 of 21 , Oct 2, 2002
            In response to Omar's comments, was Ueshiba lying?  Well if he was, he wouldn't be the first sensei who over stated his abilities to a student.  Everything I've read in regards to Ueshiba tells me that he was a walking bundle of constant contradiction and I see no indications that he would never lie. And as for being spiritual, in my experience, humans lie for their own purposes and then justify it to themselves.  All humans.  He may even have been delusional, he may have believed the golden ball stuff himself, he may have actually seen it, your mind can create all sorts of things if you let it.  If it wasn't for the master hunter, this discussion would be very different, but if you buy the golden ball story, then it would seem that he should have had no problem with the hunter either.  As for the second round with the six marksmen, very few people have the will to actually aim a gun at another person and pull the trigger, regardless of the circumstance!  A very interesting read on this is On Killing by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman(isbn0-316-33011-6).

            I've been thinking about the moving fast thing as well, and I also have a plausible explanation.  Here goes;

            This explanation assumes all witnesses  were at the shooting end of the range and not at the sides.

            It is a known fact that it is very difficult to detect movement if it is coming directly at you, your only cue is the increasing size of the object (in this case a funny little Japanese man).  Even more so the main size cue you will have in this case is height.

            Now let's say that when Ueshiba walked down to the target and turned around, he didn't become completely still, but continued to shift about a little, this would be done to hide his actual motion.  Then he just started walking  back toward the gunmen in a manner which would be difficult to detect without viewing it from the sides, getting a little shorter as he moved forward, thus appearing to remain the same size as he got closer.  Then, when he is as close as he dares to get without being found out, he springs toward one shooter he knows is aiming past him, causing uke to strike,er I mean fire before he's actually ready,(shite leads all motions) all the others fire, but now they're shooting at a moving target they were not likely aiming directly at in the first place, and in three or four fast steps he's upon them.  This, I believe is consistent with Shioda's account, as when he asks Ueshiba how he did it, he ran in an odd manner and said something to the effect of 'like this'.

            As you can see, I've challenged a few basic assumptions;
                        that the shooters were willing to kill him
                        that Ueshiba stood stoically at the target and waited for the gunmen to fire
                        that the witnesses saw the event from the gunmens perspective

            I mean no offence, but I don't accept these explanations that at our stage of Aikido development we can't understand what a senior sensei says or does.  You can understand anything if the person explaining it can put in a language you're familiar with. (although I think the glaring exception is quantum mechanics in which you must be fluent in 'math' to actually understand it)  The thing is, there is a big difference in knowing exactly all the things you must do hit a 90mph fastall, it's quite another to actually do it.   In my opinion (which is rarely humble) that's what beginners mind is all about.  It's not that you train as though you are a beginner, it's that when you train, you never forget what it was like to be a beginner.  But that's a whole new thread.

            Keep trainin'
             
             
             
             

          • Terry W. Veckey
            Well, now were getting to it. I wasn t going to wade into this one, because a) I don t want to tick anyone off, b) I d hate to have some dope try this and get
            Message 5 of 21 , Oct 2, 2002
              Well, now were getting to it. I wasn't going to wade into this one,
              because a) I don't want to tick anyone off, b) I'd hate to have some
              dope try this and get killed because I tipped the works on
              this "stunt", and 3)
              I just haven't had time.

              Anyway I doubt if most will believe me anyway so here it goes.

              First I apologize to any "true believers". I really mean no offense
              Morihei Uyeshiba has left us a great legacy. However the dodging of
              bullets , arrows, spears, etc... Had been done before and was being
              done at the time O'Sensei did his demonstration (show) by other
              martial artist and showmen.
              It was a popular stunt in "wild west shows", "side shows", and
              Vaudeville. In fact a young lady billed as "The Georgia Magnet" made
              quite a name for herself doing (for lack of a better term) "aiki
              stunts" such as "un-bendable arm", "too heavy to be lifted", "cannot
              be pushed over by six men while standing on one foot and holding a
              broom stick" etc. (I can't say for sure that she dodged bullets, but
              it wouldn't surprise me).
              THE WORK
              How the vaudevillians did the dodge was to have the fire arm or bow
              mounted on a stand (This part of the show was called "build-up"
              or "the sell") it was aimed at at least two small targets (usually
              crackers or clay saucers) mounted on a thin sticks that stood in line
              about chest high. A spectator was brought up and loaded the weapon
              fired and proved the aim was true by shattering the targets, then the
              weapon was re-loaded,targets replaced, the star took his place
              between the targets and at ready, aim, fire. BANG, the saucers would
              shatter, the smoke would clear and the star would be standing between
              the targets un-harmed (Usually.) and accept thunderous applause.
              (Some did get wounded or killed doing this bit, but if they didn't it
              would have been so mundane).

              Now your probably saying to yourselves "So what?" well bear with me
              and let's try to see how this applies to aikido technique and the
              Uyeshiba story.
              What our star did was to step off line at the moment the gun was
              fired and then stepped back on line after the projectile passed. The
              real showman would react as though the bullet had passed through him.
              Uyeshiba did the same thing. Where our star used a stand to hold the
              weapon still, Uyeshiba used expert marksman.
              One gun or six doesn't matter, what matters is that they be aimed at
              the same point. Uyeshiba had to be standing dead still until the
              order to fire was given. Or he would have been in danger of being
              tracked. Make no mistake here they didn't miss their target, Uyeshiba
              got off their line at the moment they fired, if he moved too soon or
              too late we wouldn't have heard of him.

              Uyeshiba, was partaking in an exhibition he turned down a
              competition. It is important to understand the difference.

              This is getting to be longer than I had planned so I'll close for now.
              Please understand that this is not meant to disparage or take
              anything from Uyeshiba, Shioda, or any one else. I have had a
              particular interest in this story as I have been a student of Aikido
              for about 12 years now and a showman (entertainer, magician) for well
              over 30 years. It continues to amaze me as to how the art of magic
              (sleight of hand) and aikido relate to each other.

              Purveyor of Magical Nonsense
              Terry W. Veckey
              expert
              www.veckmagic.com
              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              "Can 911 find YOUR home...
              when every second counts?"
              (If you're not sure, you need to
              contact me right away!)

              --- In yoshinkan@y..., Chris Young <christophery@c...> wrote:
              > In response to Omar's comments, was Ueshiba lying? Well if he was,
              he
              > wouldn't be the first sensei who over stated his abilities to a
              > student. Everything I've read in regards to Ueshiba tells me that
              he
              > was a walking bundle of constant contradiction and I see no
              indications
              > that he would never lie. And as for being spiritual, in my
              experience,
              > humans lie for their own purposes and then justify it to themselves.
              > All humans. He may even have been delusional, he may have believed
              the
              > golden ball stuff himself, he may have actually seen it, your mind
              can
              > create all sorts of things if you let it. If it wasn't for the
              master
              > hunter, this discussion would be very different, but if you buy the
              > golden ball story, then it would seem that he should have had no
              problem
              > with the hunter either. As for the second round with the six
              marksmen,
              > very few people have the will to actually aim a gun at another
              person
              > and pull the trigger, regardless of the circumstance! A very
              > interesting read on this is On Killing by Lt. Col. Dave
              > Grossman(isbn0-316-33011-6).
              >
              > I've been thinking about the moving fast thing as well, and I also
              have
              > a plausible explanation. Here goes;
              >
              > This explanation assumes all witnesses were at the shooting end of
              the
              > range and not at the sides.
              >
              > It is a known fact that it is very difficult to detect movement if
              it is
              > coming directly at you, your only cue is the increasing size of the
              > object (in this case a funny little Japanese man). Even more so the
              > main size cue you will have in this case is height.
              >
              > Now let's say that when Ueshiba walked down to the target and turned
              > around, he didn't become completely still, but continued to shift
              about
              > a little, this would be done to hide his actual motion. Then he
              just
              > started walking back toward the gunmen in a manner which would be
              > difficult to detect without viewing it from the sides, getting a
              little
              > shorter as he moved forward, thus appearing to remain the same size
              as
              > he got closer. Then, when he is as close as he dares to get without
              > being found out, he springs toward one shooter he knows is aiming
              past
              > him, causing uke to strike,er I mean fire before he's actually
              > ready,(shite leads all motions) all the others fire, but now they're
              > shooting at a moving target they were not likely aiming directly at
              in
              > the first place, and in three or four fast steps he's upon them.
              This,
              > I believe is consistent with Shioda's account, as when he asks
              Ueshiba
              > how he did it, he ran in an odd manner and said something to the
              effect
              > of 'like this'.
              >
              > As you can see, I've challenged a few basic assumptions;
              > that the shooters were willing to kill him
              > that Ueshiba stood stoically at the target and waited
              for
              > the gunmen to fire
              > that the witnesses saw the event from the gunmens
              > perspective
              >
              > I mean no offence, but I don't accept these explanations that at our
              > stage of Aikido development we can't understand what a senior sensei
              > says or does. You can understand anything if the person explaining
              it
              > can put in a language you're familiar with. (although I think the
              > glaring exception is quantum mechanics in which you must be fluent
              in
              > 'math' to actually understand it) The thing is, there is a big
              > difference in knowing exactly all the things you must do hit a 90mph
              > fastall, it's quite another to actually do it. In my opinion
              (which is
              > rarely humble) that's what beginners mind is all about. It's not
              that
              > you train as though you are a beginner, it's that when you train,
              you
              > never forget what it was like to be a beginner. But that's a whole
              new
              > thread.
              >
              > Keep trainin'
            • mjcameron2000
              Thank you Terry, for explaining that Ueshiba turned from kamae-mi to side body and back to kamae-mi in order to avoid an incoming projectile. I think that
              Message 6 of 21 , Oct 2, 2002
                Thank you Terry, for explaining that Ueshiba turned from kamae-mi to
                side body and back to kamae-mi in order to avoid an incoming
                projectile. I think that anyone who studies aikido, (most people on
                this list,) probably figured that out already. The fact that these
                were all expert marksmen, might indicate that they would all be
                aiming at center mass. "Simply" sidestepping or turning sidebody
                might have allowed Ueshiba to avoid all 6 shots.
                Yet, perhaps Ueshiba was physically able to "see" the intent of
                these marksmens shots as golden balls or beams of light or whatever.
                Robert Smith relates a story of his training with Cheng-man Ch'ing
                (yang style tai chi master) in which during push hands professor
                Cheng would be able to sense his intent before Smith had even started
                the motion.
                Apparentlly, Smith decided one day that he would think about
                baseball instead of thinking of pushing the professor. During the
                round of push hands, Smith, while thinking of baseball, pushed the
                professor, instead of catching the professors balance though, they
                collided their heads together. The Professor looked stunned for a
                second, then laughed out loud, touching his arms and elbows, telling
                Smith that this is where he is supposed to push not with his head.
                Anyways, Smith was able penetrate professor Cheng's intent
                sensing defenses by having no intent ,(mushin - no-mind.) Or, at
                least by only having baseball-mind.
                This directly transfers over to the hunter story, who having no
                intent other than to kill Ueshiba, would have been able to kill him.
                That part is the part that I can partially understand, even if I
                can't do it yet.
                What gets me, is how Ueshiba was able to cross 25 meters without
                anyone seeing him do it. Physically, take a measuring tape and
                measure out 25 meters, you probably don't even have a tape this
                long. Now imagine someone crossing this distance coming at you,
                without you detecting them. Even if the measurements were mixed up in
                the English translation of Shugyo, and it was 25 feet not meters, it
                would still be a mystifing task.
                I'm sorry Chris but the running in an "odd manner" doesn't cut
                it. And, I don't know anyone who can cross that distance in "3-4
                fast steps", triple-jumper or not.
                The question is not whether Ueshiba was a "bold-faced liar", but
                whether Shioda was. After all, he was the eye witness. If you
                accept the fact that Shioda was not lying, then something was going
                on that would be far beyond any language that any senior instructor
                could use to put this into understandable or quantifiable terms. It
                is something that most likey could only be experienced.
                The question remains, how do any of us "mortals" experience this?
                How does one get to Carnegie Hall? But, simple practice of what your
                instructor tells you is probably not even nearly enough.
                Questioning everything and searching deeper for yourself, maybe thats
                it. Ueshiba did this through extreme philosophicaland spiritual
                training, before and with his O-moto group.
                Or maybe one has to just wait for a tengu to teach you.
              • Terry W. Veckey
                Again no offence is meant. But I don t know that every one has figured it out. Any way Ueshiba either stepped off line or used real magic. There are several
                Message 7 of 21 , Oct 3, 2002
                  Again no offence is meant. But I don't know that every one has
                  figured it out. Any way Ueshiba either stepped off line or used real
                  magic. There are several reasons no one saw him traverse the
                  distance. The foremost is they weren't looking for him to be coming
                  at them (entering?). In fact some (Shioda, for sure) were running in
                  the opposite direction toward the target no doubt expecting to plug a
                  hole in his masters chest. These guys would bathe Ueshiba for crying
                  out loud.
                  Another thing is that Shioda was relating a "weird" story that took
                  place a long time ago in his past without going into great detail
                  about the set up. I'll bet a dollar to a donut O'Sensei was standing
                  either in front of or behind a target and he had the shooters take a
                  practise shot or two.
                  I don't think Kancho was lying though. I've heard people describe
                  magical effects that I've done and you would think it was an entirely
                  different trick (usually better). They describe what they remember,
                  not what they saw, and what they saw isn't what actually happened.
                  Man, I love magic and Aikido.

                  TV

                  --- In yoshinkan@y..., "mjcameron2000" <cameromj@h...> wrote:
                  > Thank you Terry, for explaining that Ueshiba turned from kamae-mi
                  to
                  > side body and back to kamae-mi in order to avoid an incoming
                  > projectile. I think that anyone who studies aikido, (most people on
                  > this list,) probably figured that out already. The fact that these
                  > were all expert marksmen, might indicate that they would all be
                  > aiming at center mass. "Simply" sidestepping or turning sidebody
                  > might have allowed Ueshiba to avoid all 6 shots.
                  > Yet, perhaps Ueshiba was physically able to "see" the intent of
                  > these marksmens shots as golden balls or beams of light or
                  whatever.
                  > Robert Smith relates a story of his training with Cheng-man
                  Ch'ing
                  > (yang style tai chi master) in which during push hands professor
                  > Cheng would be able to sense his intent before Smith had even
                  started
                  > the motion.
                  > Apparentlly, Smith decided one day that he would think about
                  > baseball instead of thinking of pushing the professor. During the
                  > round of push hands, Smith, while thinking of baseball, pushed the
                  > professor, instead of catching the professors balance though, they
                  > collided their heads together. The Professor looked stunned for a
                  > second, then laughed out loud, touching his arms and elbows,
                  telling
                  > Smith that this is where he is supposed to push not with his head.
                  > Anyways, Smith was able penetrate professor Cheng's intent
                  > sensing defenses by having no intent ,(mushin - no-mind.) Or, at
                  > least by only having baseball-mind.
                  > This directly transfers over to the hunter story, who having no
                  > intent other than to kill Ueshiba, would have been able to kill him.
                  > That part is the part that I can partially understand, even if
                  I
                  > can't do it yet.
                  > What gets me, is how Ueshiba was able to cross 25 meters without
                  > anyone seeing him do it. Physically, take a measuring tape and
                  > measure out 25 meters, you probably don't even have a tape this
                  > long. Now imagine someone crossing this distance coming at you,
                  > without you detecting them. Even if the measurements were mixed up
                  in
                  > the English translation of Shugyo, and it was 25 feet not meters,
                  it
                  > would still be a mystifing task.
                  > I'm sorry Chris but the running in an "odd manner" doesn't cut
                  > it. And, I don't know anyone who can cross that distance in "3-4
                  > fast steps", triple-jumper or not.
                  > The question is not whether Ueshiba was a "bold-faced liar", but
                  > whether Shioda was. After all, he was the eye witness. If you
                  > accept the fact that Shioda was not lying, then something was going
                  > on that would be far beyond any language that any senior instructor
                  > could use to put this into understandable or quantifiable terms.
                  It
                  > is something that most likey could only be experienced.
                  > The question remains, how do any of us "mortals" experience
                  this?
                  > How does one get to Carnegie Hall? But, simple practice of what
                  your
                  > instructor tells you is probably not even nearly enough.
                  > Questioning everything and searching deeper for yourself, maybe
                  thats
                  > it. Ueshiba did this through extreme philosophicaland spiritual
                  > training, before and with his O-moto group.
                  > Or maybe one has to just wait for a tengu to teach you.
                • Chris Young
                  I think you missed my point Mike, I never said that Ueshiba covered 75 metres in three or four steps, re read the post. The point is academic anyway because I
                  Message 8 of 21 , Oct 3, 2002
                    I think you missed my point Mike, I never said that Ueshiba covered 75
                    metres in three or four steps, re read the post. The point is academic
                    anyway because I like Terry's explanation better than mine anywise.
                    Occam's razor and all that.

                    Thanks for weighing in on this thing Terry, I know virtually nothing
                    about your art (magic not Aikido)(although the more I learn about Aikido
                    the less I know) but have always believed that there would be great
                    benefit to understanding the principles of illusion. I think your point
                    is eloquently made, and while writing yesterday's post I was going to
                    make mention of illusions that I have witnessed as an illustration of
                    the idea that, just because eye witnesses concur on what they saw,
                    doesn't mean it actually happened. One of the assumptions we have made
                    here is that Ueshiba covered the 75 metres or so in a few seconds. Just
                    because the eye witnesses say that's what they saw doesn't mean that's
                    really what happened, it's just what their brains worked out from the
                    information available. Anyone will assume that when someone has an
                    object in their hand, and then put's that hand in their pocket, that
                    they have put the object in their pocket. A reasonable assumption to
                    make, but not a sound one. A great starting point for deception isn't
                    it? I think that you, and anyone in your line of work has a great
                    advantage in learning Aikido over the rest of us. Simply knowing where
                    Uke's attention will be focused at any given time is a valuable skill
                    that few, certainly not I, possess. Would you have any recommendations
                    such as 'must read' books that we could ferret out? I know and respect
                    that the magic community is very protective of their secrets and perhaps
                    the only way to learn this stuff is to immerse yourself in it, but I can
                    always ask can't I?

                    This is fun, finally we have a cool topic to sink our teeth into.

                    Chris
                  • mjcameron2000
                    Chris, I don t think I missed the point you were making, you suggested that he was able to disguise his forward motion by lowering his body as he was moving
                    Message 9 of 21 , Oct 3, 2002
                      Chris,

                      I don't think I missed the point you were making, you suggested that
                      he was able to disguise his forward motion by lowering his body as he
                      was moving forward. He would have also appeared to be getting wider
                      as he moved forward though, but, maybe turning sideways could make him
                      appear to stay the same width. As academic as that point may be, it
                      doesn't work. I made my girlfriend's daughter, who would be just a
                      bit taller than Ueshiba, try it.

                      Anyways, that's not the way it was explained in Shugyo. In it, Shioda
                      says that the demonstration was not done just once, but twice in a
                      row. During the second showing, Shioda was watching Ueshiba very
                      intently, trying to determin how he was traversing the distance.
                      Again, he couldn't see how he did it. When he later asked his
                      teacher, Ueshiba said that he first jumped half the distance and then
                      ran "ninja style" towards the first person who fired.
                      I try to imagine Ueshiba jumping 37.5 feet, I prefer to envision
                      Trinity jumping instead.
                      Matrix, Crouching Tigers and Hidden Dragons aside, I still can't
                      figure it out.
                      Daryl Hartz has the book, Shugyo, I'm sure he would lend it to you,
                      Chris. Besides interesting and strange stories, it also contains info
                      on the direct application of aikido in combat against other martial
                      arts. Very Cool.

                      Mike Cameron
                    • E.J. Lemmon
                      If your looking for some good books on the subject, I would suggest the Harry Potter series. ... From: Chris Young To: yoshinkan@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday,
                      Message 10 of 21 , Oct 4, 2002
                        If your looking for some good books on the subject, I would suggest the Harry Potter series.
                         
                         
                        ---- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 1:15 AM
                        Subject: Re: [yoshinkan] Re: O'Sensei vs. Gun Squad

                        I think you missed my point Mike, I never said that Ueshiba covered 75
                        metres in three or four steps, re read the post.  The point is academic
                        anyway because I like Terry's explanation better than mine anywise.
                        Occam's razor and all that.

                        Thanks for weighing in on this thing Terry,  I know virtually nothing
                        about your art (magic not Aikido)(although the more I learn about Aikido
                        the less I know)  but have always believed that there would be great
                        benefit to understanding the principles of illusion.  I think your point
                        is eloquently made, and while writing yesterday's post I was going to
                        make mention of illusions that I have witnessed as an illustration of
                        the idea that, just because eye witnesses concur on what they saw,
                        doesn't mean it actually happened.  One of the assumptions we have made
                        here is that Ueshiba covered the 75 metres or so in a few seconds.  Just
                        because the eye witnesses say that's what they saw doesn't mean that's
                        really what happened, it's just what their brains worked out from the
                        information available.  Anyone will assume that when someone has an
                        object in their hand, and then put's that hand in  their pocket, that
                        they have put the object in their pocket.  A reasonable assumption to
                        make, but not a sound one.  A great starting point for deception isn't
                        it?  I think that you, and anyone in your line of work has a great
                        advantage in learning Aikido over the rest of us.  Simply knowing where
                        Uke's attention will be focused at any given time is a valuable skill
                        that few, certainly not I, possess.  Would you have any recommendations
                        such as 'must read' books that we could ferret out?  I know and respect
                        that the magic community is very protective of their secrets and perhaps
                        the only way to learn this stuff is to immerse yourself in it, but I can
                        always ask can't I?

                        This is fun, finally we have a cool topic to sink our teeth into.

                        Chris



                        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                      • Todd Johnson
                        Finally, someone with a pragmatic and logical perspective on this topic. Aikido Shugyo (the book) has some incredibly valuable information in it
                        Message 11 of 21 , Oct 4, 2002
                          <chuckle>   Finally, someone with a pragmatic and logical perspective on this topic.
                           
                          Aikido Shugyo (the book) has some incredibly valuable information in it for improving one's Yoshinkan Aikido, I think it's a shame that people are so concerned and conversant about the parlor trick stories rather than Kancho's amazing instruction and advice on improving one's martial abilities. It's this part of the book (the majority of the book in fact) that offers true insight into the magic of Yoshinkan Aikido (I.M.H.O.).
                           
                          ..Todd
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 3:44 AM
                          Subject: Re: [yoshinkan] Re: O'Sensei vs. Gun Squad

                          If your looking for some good books on the subject, I would suggest the Harry Potter series.
                           
                           
                          ---- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 1:15 AM
                          Subject: Re: [yoshinkan] Re: O'Sensei vs. Gun Squad

                          I think you missed my point Mike, I never said that Ueshiba covered 75
                          metres in three or four steps, re read the post.  The point is academic
                          anyway because I like Terry's explanation better than mine anywise.
                          Occam's razor and all that.
                        • aysdojo
                          Todd Johnson wrote: Aikido Shugyo (the book) has some incredibly valuable information in it for improving one s Yoshinkan Aikido, I think it s a shame that
                          Message 12 of 21 , Oct 4, 2002
                            Todd Johnson wrote:
                            Aikido Shugyo (the book) has some incredibly valuable information in
                            it for improving one's Yoshinkan Aikido, I think it's a shame that
                            people are so concerned and conversant about the parlor trick stories
                            rather than Kancho's amazing instruction and advice on improving
                            one's martial abilities. It's this part of the book (the majority of
                            the book in fact) that offers true insight into the magic of
                            Yoshinkan Aikido (I.M.H.O.).
                            ===

                            Very well said Todd. Mustard Sensei and I had this conversation just
                            recently. Seems everyone is focused on the "STORIES" and not the
                            message. I've read it twice now and both times came away with
                            something new to think about in my own training.

                            I would add that this book not only has valuable information for
                            Yoshinkan students, but for ANY student of Aikido.

                            Cheers ...

                            Steven
                          • Terry W. Veckey
                            ... perspective on this topic. ... in it for improving one s Yoshinkan Aikido, I think it s a shame that people are so concerned and conversant about the
                            Message 13 of 21 , Oct 5, 2002
                              Sigh! --- In yoshinkan@y..., Todd Johnson <toddj@s...> wrote:
                              > <chuckle> Finally, someone with a pragmatic and logical
                              perspective on this topic.
                              >
                              > Aikido Shugyo (the book) has some incredibly valuable information
                              in it for improving one's Yoshinkan Aikido, I think it's a shame that
                              people are so concerned and conversant about the parlor trick stories
                              rather than Kancho's amazing instruction and advice on improving
                              one's martial abilities. It's this part of the book (the majority of
                              the book in fact) that offers true insight into the magic of
                              Yoshinkan Aikido (I.M.H.O.).
                              >
                              > ..Todd
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: E.J. Lemmon
                              > To: yoshinkan@y...
                              > Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 3:44 AM
                              > Subject: Re: [yoshinkan] Re: O'Sensei vs. Gun Squad
                              >
                              >
                              > If your looking for some good books on the subject, I would
                              suggest the Harry Potter series.
                              >
                              >
                              > ---- Original Message -----
                              > From: Chris Young
                              > To: yoshinkan@y...
                              > Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 1:15 AM
                              > Subject: Re: [yoshinkan] Re: O'Sensei vs. Gun Squad
                              >
                              >
                              > I think you missed my point Mike, I never said that Ueshiba
                              covered 75
                              > metres in three or four steps, re read the post. The point is
                              academic
                              > anyway because I like Terry's explanation better than mine
                              anywise.
                              > Occam's razor and all that.
                            • Terry W. Veckey
                              Actually, I taught Harry Potter;) Really though, I don t think sharing bits of fact from any other art detracts from the study of Aikido in general nor
                              Message 14 of 21 , Oct 5, 2002
                                Actually, I taught Harry Potter;)

                                Really though, I don't think sharing bits of fact from any other art
                                detracts from the study of Aikido in general nor Shioda's book in
                                particular.
                                My intent was to maybe in some way to open up some new insights.
                                Please, check out my next post, subject- "Parlor Tricks"

                                TV

                                --- In yoshinkan@y..., "aysdojo" <AYSDojo@s...> wrote:
                                > Todd Johnson wrote:
                                > Aikido Shugyo (the book) has some incredibly valuable information
                                in
                                > it for improving one's Yoshinkan Aikido, I think it's a shame that
                                > people are so concerned and conversant about the parlor trick
                                stories
                                > rather than Kancho's amazing instruction and advice on improving
                                > one's martial abilities. It's this part of the book (the majority
                                of
                                > the book in fact) that offers true insight into the magic of
                                > Yoshinkan Aikido (I.M.H.O.).
                                > ===
                                >
                                > Very well said Todd. Mustard Sensei and I had this conversation
                                just
                                > recently. Seems everyone is focused on the "STORIES" and not the
                                > message. I've read it twice now and both times came away with
                                > something new to think about in my own training.
                                >
                                > I would add that this book not only has valuable information for
                                > Yoshinkan students, but for ANY student of Aikido.
                                >
                                > Cheers ...
                                >
                                > Steven
                              • oamirza
                                ... in ... I have to disagree with you. While the prime purpose of the book surely does not lie in accounts of phenomenal feats (which you unfairly degrade by
                                Message 15 of 21 , Oct 6, 2002
                                  --- In yoshinkan@y..., "aysdojo" <AYSDojo@s...> wrote:
                                  > Todd Johnson wrote:
                                  > Aikido Shugyo (the book) has some incredibly valuable information
                                  in
                                  > it for improving one's Yoshinkan Aikido, I think it's a shame that
                                  > people are so concerned and conversant about the parlor trick
                                  >stories


                                  I have to disagree with you.

                                  While the prime purpose of the book surely does not lie in accounts
                                  of phenomenal feats (which you unfairly degrade by calling
                                  them "parlor trick stories"), it is *also* interesting for its
                                  eyewitness reports of one of the most remarkable martial artists of
                                  the century, and perhaps of all time, Ueshiba Sensei.

                                  In particular, we have what appear to be honest, detailed accounts of
                                  events that defy normal explanation. Certainly, nobody on this list
                                  has come up with anything like a normal explanation: I find the ones
                                  presented to be ingenious, but ultimately entirely convincing. That
                                  is fascinating in itself, and surely deserves to be discussed in its
                                  own right. What is brought to light here is not merely a story, but
                                  also some much deeper topics: the nature of evidence and explanation,
                                  whether or not the supernatural has any place in our worldview, the
                                  limits of human martial capacities, and so on. And there is the
                                  perennially fascinating character of Ueshiba himself. As long as we
                                  remain polite, I don't see why it is a "shame" for us to discuss the
                                  incidents recorded in "Aikido Shugyo" here.

                                  Best,

                                  Omar
                                • Todd Johnson
                                  Allow me to elucidate my thoughts and comments... Ueshiba Sensei: most remarkable martial artist. Agreed. Terry Veckey s trade: Fascinating and fun. I d love
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Oct 6, 2002
                                    Allow me to elucidate my thoughts and comments...

                                    Ueshiba Sensei: most remarkable martial artist. Agreed.
                                    Terry Veckey's trade: Fascinating and fun. I'd love to experience a show of
                                    his.
                                    Terry Veckey's quote from book: Oddly familiar, and much appreciated. Thanks
                                    Terry.
                                    Ueshiba's Sensei's amazing feats: parlor tricks nevertheless, and I'm sure
                                    Ueshiba himself would agree. (my opinion)
                                    Discuss, as long as we remain polite: I couldn't agree more.

                                    There is certainly no shame in discussing any of this. What I deem to be a
                                    shame is the lack of apparent interest in (or at least discussion of) the
                                    "useful" information contained in the book. I consider Kancho Sensei's
                                    insight and practical teachings to be amazing and fascinating in their own
                                    right. Perhaps more so.

                                    I guess it's my concern that Aikido Shugyo might be looked upon as a story
                                    book by those reading this thread who have yet to read it, rather than the
                                    practical Yoshinkan Aikido textbook that I see it to be. I should probably
                                    encourage everyone who hasn't read the book, to get it and read it, and draw
                                    their own conclusion. It is a book that shouldn't be missed by anyone
                                    interested in learning more about any form of Aikido. It provides us with a
                                    much more complete understanding of the balance and whole-body-power that
                                    needs to be developed in our training, rather than merely learning the
                                    movements as one might without this additional instruction.

                                    -- Todd Johnson

                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "oamirza" <oamirza@...>
                                    To: <yoshinkan@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2002 3:18 AM
                                    Subject: [yoshinkan] Re: Aikido Shugyo ... and the message!


                                    > --- In yoshinkan@y..., "aysdojo" <AYSDojo@s...> wrote:
                                    > > Todd Johnson wrote:
                                    > > Aikido Shugyo (the book) has some incredibly valuable information
                                    > in
                                    > > it for improving one's Yoshinkan Aikido, I think it's a shame that
                                    > > people are so concerned and conversant about the parlor trick
                                    > >stories
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I have to disagree with you.
                                    >
                                    > While the prime purpose of the book surely does not lie in accounts
                                    > of phenomenal feats (which you unfairly degrade by calling
                                    > them "parlor trick stories"), it is *also* interesting for its
                                    > eyewitness reports of one of the most remarkable martial artists of
                                    > the century, and perhaps of all time, Ueshiba Sensei.
                                    >
                                    > In particular, we have what appear to be honest, detailed accounts of
                                    > events that defy normal explanation. Certainly, nobody on this list
                                    > has come up with anything like a normal explanation: I find the ones
                                    > presented to be ingenious, but ultimately entirely convincing. That
                                    > is fascinating in itself, and surely deserves to be discussed in its
                                    > own right. What is brought to light here is not merely a story, but
                                    > also some much deeper topics: the nature of evidence and explanation,
                                    > whether or not the supernatural has any place in our worldview, the
                                    > limits of human martial capacities, and so on. And there is the
                                    > perennially fascinating character of Ueshiba himself. As long as we
                                    > remain polite, I don't see why it is a "shame" for us to discuss the
                                    > incidents recorded in "Aikido Shugyo" here.
                                    >
                                    > Best,
                                    >
                                    > Omar
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • mjcameron2000
                                    Now, I can t talk for Chris Young, but, I do know him personally, and when he and I asked Terry for good books on the subject of illusion and magic tricks, I
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Oct 6, 2002
                                      Now, I can't talk for Chris Young, but, I do know him personally, and
                                      when he and I asked Terry for good books on the subject of illusion
                                      and magic tricks, I don't think we were interested in learning the
                                      physical act of pulling bunnies out of hats. I was interested in
                                      learning how to lead and control another persons attention. This is
                                      a subject that I think has vital importance in the application of
                                      aikido techniques.
                                      Shodo-o-seisu, or, controlling the first move, is a fundamental
                                      principle in aikido. Why does shi'te move first? I think there are
                                      many reasons, but to keep this on topic, controlling and directing
                                      uke's attention and focus is one.
                                      If anything that Terry says or if any of the books that he recomends
                                      helps me improve this, then I am going to be open enough to at least
                                      check it out.

                                      As an aside, I don't think that anyone on this list holds out the
                                      hope that their technique is going to improve by reading or
                                      participating on this list. Technique is best left for discussion
                                      within the dojo and at seminars.

                                      The only redeeming factor that keeps this list from becoming useless
                                      squabbling is the fact that it is a medium for the free flowing of
                                      ideas.
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