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Questions about Air Rail Fork

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  • whareagle2000
    Hello Fellow Y-Foilers! Glad I stumbled into this group, and I hope I can contribute! I ve been a Y-foiler for about a year now, and I m looking for some
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 1, 2002
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      Hello Fellow Y-Foilers!
      Glad I stumbled into this group, and I hope I can contribute! I've
      been a Y-foiler for about a year now, and I'm looking for some
      suggestions about potential pitfalls if I update my 54cm Y-foil to a
      more aerodynamic and lighter fork.

      Is the current fork aerodynamic enough?

      Is there a solution for the "2cm" difference between the crown of the
      Air Rail and the standard crowns of today's Reynolds' or Alpha Q's?

      What have people's experiences been with upgrading to threadless
      headsets?

      Any feedback would be appreciated.
    • Matt Schiller
      Someone showed us this one time the fork issue was mentioned. http://www.serotta.com/pages/components.html#headsup I haven t had the $ to do it yet, but I plan
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 1, 2002
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        Someone showed us this one time the fork issue was mentioned.

        http://www.serotta.com/pages/components.html#headsup

        I haven't had the $ to do it yet, but I plan on getting one and using it with an Alpha Q SUB3
        fork. I think the adapter is about $60 they told me, it doesn't weigh too much either (I
        think 50-60grams).. There are a few companies that make really light headsets, that will
        counter out part of the adapter in comparison to a CK or something.. Let me know and I will
        get links if you are interested.

        I was told by the machanic at my shop that when I do upgrade to use a 1-1/8 stem with a
        reducer, he said it will be a bit stronger.

        Let us know what you do. I'd love to hear a review of that adapter if you get it ;)
        Matt
        mailto:vetteracer@...
        1998 59cm Gold Y77 - Record 8-Speed Groupo, CXP30/Record wheelset, Syncros Revolutions cranks
        39/53, Litespeed Ti BB, SLR Saddle, Speedplay X2 pedals, Easton EC90 42cm bars. ~20.5#?
        1997 Small Nude Y33 - XTR Cassette & Rear D, XT Rapidfires & Front D, Syncros BB Seatpost Stem
        Bars, Dirt Research Ti saddle, Coda 701M CNC Cranks 22/32/42, Magura HS22 brakes with Kooka
        Levers and Braided SS lines, Speedplay Frog pedals. 24.5#

        7/1/2002 10:31:11 AM, "whareagle2000" <rwharton@...> wrote:

        >Hello Fellow Y-Foilers!
        > Glad I stumbled into this group, and I hope I can contribute! I've
        >been a Y-foiler for about a year now, and I'm looking for some
        >suggestions about potential pitfalls if I update my 54cm Y-foil to a
        >more aerodynamic and lighter fork.
        >
        >Is the current fork aerodynamic enough?
        >
        >Is there a solution for the "2cm" difference between the crown of the
        >Air Rail and the standard crowns of today's Reynolds' or Alpha Q's?
        >
        >What have people's experiences been with upgrading to threadless
        >headsets?
        >
        >Any feedback would be appreciated.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        >yfoil-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >
        >
        >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
        >
      • Richard Wharton
        Matt & Gang, Immediate answer; thanks! I ll propose the idea to my fit gurus at Richardson Bike Mart and see what they think. I may also hold out for the aero
        Message 3 of 7 , Jul 1, 2002
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          Matt & Gang,

              Immediate answer; thanks! I’ll propose the idea to my fit gurus at Richardson Bike Mart and see what they think. I may also hold out for the aero Alpha Q that’s supposedly coming out this fall. Anyone got any opinions about the Reynolds Aero fork vs. the others?

           

          Sincerely,

           

          Richard P. Wharton

          Owner/Operator

          Off-Road Athletics/onlinebikecoach.com

           

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Matt Schiller [mailto:vetteracer@...]
          Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 6:00 PM
          To: yfoil@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [yfoil] Questions about Air Rail Fork

           

          Someone showed us this one time the fork issue was mentioned.

          http://www.serotta.com/pages/components.html#headsup

          I haven't had the $ to do it yet, but I plan on getting one and using it with an Alpha Q SUB3
          fork.  I think the adapter is about $60 they told me, it doesn't weigh too much either (I
          think 50-60grams)..  There are a few companies that make really light headsets, that will
          counter out part of the adapter in comparison to a CK or something..  Let me know and I will
          get links if you are interested.

          I was told by the machanic at my shop that when I do upgrade to use a 1-1/8 stem with a
          reducer, he said it will be a bit stronger. 

          Let us know what you do.  I'd love to hear a review of that adapter if you get it ;)
          Matt
          mailto:vetteracer@...
          1998 59cm Gold Y77 - Record 8-Speed Groupo, CXP30/Record wheelset, Syncros Revolutions cranks
          39/53, Litespeed Ti BB, SLR Saddle, Speedplay X2 pedals, Easton EC90 42cm bars.  ~20.5#?
          1997 Small Nude Y33 - XTR Cassette & Rear D, XT Rapidfires & Front D, Syncros BB Seatpost Stem
          Bars, Dirt Research Ti saddle, Coda 701M CNC Cranks 22/32/42, Magura HS22 brakes with Kooka
          Levers and Braided SS lines, Speedplay Frog pedals. 24.5#

          7/1/2002 10:31:11 AM, "whareagle2000" <rwharton@...> wrote:

          >Hello Fellow Y-Foilers!
          >   Glad I stumbled into this group, and I hope I can contribute! I've
          >been a Y-foiler for about a year now, and I'm looking for some
          >suggestions about potential pitfalls if I update my 54cm Y-foil to a
          >more aerodynamic and lighter fork.
          >
          >Is the current fork aerodynamic enough?
          >
          >Is there a solution for the "2cm" difference between the crown of the
          >Air Rail and the standard crowns of today's Reynolds' or Alpha Q's?
          >
          >What have people's experiences been with upgrading to threadless
          >headsets?
          >
          >Any feedback would be appreciated.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          >yfoil-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
          >




          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          yfoil-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

        • Richard Wharton
          Y-foilers, I ve been pursuing the effort of replacing the Air Rail fork on my 54cm Red Y with something more aerodynamic and lighter, and also going with
          Message 4 of 7 , Jul 27, 2002
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            Y-foilers,

                I’ve been pursuing the effort of replacing the Air Rail fork on my 54cm Red Y with something more aerodynamic and lighter, and also going with something that I can make threadless. The cost of the project through my LBS (I don’t trust myself to do this) is in the $900 range, but considering that that is half the price of a USPS TT frame (2001 model available…), I’m still hunting. Vette Racer gave me a great lead with the Serotta HeadsUp device, which is a definite, but I’m still confused about rake & handling.

             

            The rake of the Air Rail is 47mm. The rake of an Aero Reynolds (1st choice) has a rake of 40mm. The Q-Pro is a great fork as well, though not quite as aero, and has a rake of 42 or 44mm. Now, where I get confused is here; Obviously Trek was using the 47mm fork to accommodate the Rock Shox Ruby, which is nowhere to be found nowadays, and that leaves us high & dry in the replacement fork department. Anyway, if there are any gurus out there who could give me an honest opinion about the effort. I’m also riding with a 120mm stem, and I’m starting to think that the 54, which was a replacement for a 56 that was claimed to be too big by Ben Serotta himself, may just be too small. This is an all-rounder bike, not just a dedicated TT bike.

             

            Lemme know what ya’ll think. Will a 40mm rake Reynolds with the Serotta HeadsUP make the bike too twitchy or too slow? Will having a 40mm rake put me too far forward over the front of the bike, and can I stay balanced on the machine in aero position?

             

            I love the y; it’s just SO DAMNED DIFFICULT!

             

            Sincerely,

             

            Richard P. Wharton

            Owner/Operator

            Off-Road Athletics/onlinebikecoach.com

             

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Matt Schiller [mailto:vetteracer@...]
            Sent:
            Monday, July 01, 2002 6:00 PM
            To: yfoil@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [yfoil] Questions about Air Rail Fork

             

            Someone showed us this one time the fork issue was mentioned.

            http://www.serotta.com/pages/components.html#headsup

            I haven't had the $ to do it yet, but I plan on getting one and using it with an Alpha Q SUB3
            fork.  I think the adapter is about $60 they told me, it doesn't weigh too much either (I
            think 50-60grams)..  There are a few companies that make really light headsets, that will
            counter out part of the adapter in comparison to a CK or something..  Let me know and I will
            get links if you are interested.

            I was told by the machanic at my shop that when I do upgrade to use a 1-1/8 stem with a
            reducer, he said it will be a bit stronger. 

            Let us know what you do.  I'd love to hear a review of that adapter if you get it ;)
            Matt
            mailto:vetteracer@...
            1998 59cm Gold Y77 - Record 8-Speed Groupo, CXP30/Record wheelset, Syncros Revolutions cranks
            39/53, Litespeed Ti BB, SLR Saddle, Speedplay X2 pedals, Easton EC90 42cm bars.  ~20.5#?
            1997 Small Nude Y33 - XTR Cassette & Rear D, XT Rapidfires & Front D, Syncros BB Seatpost Stem
            Bars, Dirt Research Ti saddle, Coda 701M CNC Cranks 22/32/42, Magura HS22 brakes with Kooka
            Levers and Braided SS lines, Speedplay Frog pedals. 24.5#

            7/1/2002 10:31:11 AM, "whareagle2000" <rwharton@...> wrote:

            >Hello Fellow Y-Foilers!
            >   Glad I stumbled into this group, and I hope I can contribute! I've
            >been a Y-foiler for about a year now, and I'm looking for some
            >suggestions about potential pitfalls if I update my 54cm Y-foil to a
            >more aerodynamic and lighter fork.
            >
            >Is the current fork aerodynamic enough?
            >
            >Is there a solution for the "2cm" difference between the crown of the
            >Air Rail and the standard crowns of today's Reynolds' or Alpha Q's?
            >
            >What have people's experiences been with upgrading to threadless
            >headsets?
            >
            >Any feedback would be appreciated.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            >yfoil-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >




            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            yfoil-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

          • Rick Warner
            Richard, I doubt that the Rock Shox Ruby had any influence on rake of the Icon selected for the Y. On current models of bikes, e.g., the 5500 and 5200, Trek
            Message 5 of 7 , Jul 28, 2002
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              Richard,

              I doubt that the Rock Shox Ruby had any influence on rake of the Icon
              selected for the Y.
              On current models of bikes, e.g., the 5500 and 5200, Trek uses two
              different rake Air Rails;
              a shorter rake fork on large frames, and long rake fork on short
              frames. The issue is keeping
              the wheelbase relatively long and stable on short frames, short and
              responsive on the larger
              frames. You see they did the same with the Y; if you look at the
              geometries on the Spec
              sheets Matt posted to the Yahoo site (thanks Matt) you will see that frames
              54 cm and
              smaller had a 4.7 cm (47 mm) rake, frames 56 cm and larger had a 4.3 cm
              rake. The Y
              is a relatively short wheelbase bike, so ultra-short rakes would have made
              the bike a bit
              twitchy for your average rider. Some folks, esp. crit racers, like to have
              a more responsive
              steering than a stock bike and opt for shorter rake forks. My guess is
              that if you put a
              40 mm rake Reynold's on your 54 cm Y that you will have a bike that is very
              responsiveness in the
              steering, to the point that some might consider it twitchy. The actual
              change is small (7 mm,
              or about 1/4") but it might be significant. You might see if you can find
              a crit rider with a short
              frame bike that has a short rake fork to see how it handles.

              BTW, you must have body measurements, in part, similar to mine. I am on
              the cusp between
              54 cm and 56 cm frame sizes (69" height, 30" inseam). Optimum stem length
              for me seems
              to be 10 cm, and given that the top tube difference between the 54 and 56
              is 2 cm it would
              be reasonable to presume that I would need a 12 cm stem on a 54, the same
              as you. I opted to
              go to the larger frame based on the fit of my steel bike (53 cm C-C, which
              measures 56 cm C-T
              like Trek measures).

              Good luck on the decision.

              - rick -

              At 02:04 PM 7/27/2002 -0500, you wrote:

              >Y-foilers,
              >
              > I ve been pursuing the effort of replacing the Air Rail fork on my
              > 54cm Red Y with something more aerodynamic and lighter, and also going
              > with something that I can make threadless. The cost of the project
              > through my LBS (I don t trust myself to do this) is in the $900 range,
              > but considering that that is half the price of a USPS TT frame (2001
              > model available&), I m still hunting. Vette Racer gave me a great lead
              > with the Serotta HeadsUp device, which is a definite, but I m still
              > confused about rake & handling.
              >
              >
              >
              >The rake of the Air Rail is 47mm. The rake of an Aero Reynolds (1st
              >choice) has a rake of 40mm. The Q-Pro is a great fork as well, though not
              >quite as aero, and has a rake of 42 or 44mm. Now, where I get confused is
              >here; Obviously Trek was using the 47mm fork to accommodate the Rock Shox
              >Ruby, which is nowhere to be found nowadays, and that leaves us high & dry
              >in the replacement fork department. Anyway, if there are any gurus out
              >there who could give me an honest opinion about the effort. I m also
              >riding with a 120mm stem, and I m starting to think that the 54, which was
              >a replacement for a 56 that was claimed to be too big by Ben Serotta
              >himself, may just be too small. This is an all-rounder bike, not just a
              >dedicated TT bike.
              >
              >
              >
              >Lemme know what ya ll think. Will a 40mm rake Reynolds with the Serotta
              >HeadsUP make the bike too twitchy or too slow? Will having a 40mm rake put
              >me too far forward over the front of the bike, and can I stay balanced on
              >the machine in aero position?
              >
              >
              >
              >I love the y; it s just SO DAMNED DIFFICULT!
              >
              >
              >
              >Sincerely,
              >
              >
              >
              >Richard P. Wharton
              >
              >Owner/Operator
              >
              >Off-Road Athletics/onlinebikecoach.com
              >
              >
            • Richard Wharton
              Rick, Thank you for the honest, detailed report. I think you re right; I rode a 56 originally, because that was the closest thing to my mountain bike geometry.
              Message 6 of 7 , Jul 28, 2002
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                Rick,

                   Thank you for the honest, detailed report. I think you’re right; I rode a 56 originally, because that was the closest thing to my mountain bike geometry. Now I know better (I think…). The 54 alone is definitely twitchier; it seems like less bike underneath me, and that’s okay. The 56, both for a 5000 and a Y-foil, definitely felt a bit too long and stretched out, but I did go to a shorter stem (a 100 with a 0degree rise, not a -17). On the 56, this helped, but on the 54 – again, made on the fit bike recommendation by Ben Serotta himself, - the 100 definitely made for a cruiser, upright position. The 120/0 degree stem has once again stretched me out, but I think it’s the right balance between weight distribution, wheelbase and basic aerodynamic efficiency.

                 

                   I think I may do this; Alpha-Q is debuting a new fork at interbike in September; a more uniformly – bladed, TT-style fork that will complete their offerings. I’ve asked the distributor, and he claims it will come in a 44mm offset. That seems like the best option to me; less of a change in geometry and handling, with lighter weight and better aerodynamics. This may not be as aero as the Reynolds, but it will probably be the best combination of weight, stiffness, aerodynamics, etc. I’ll call him on Monday.

                 

                   The season is effectively over, and there are one or two more TT’s coming up, but I want this bike to be an everything bike; sort of an F-15E if you know fighter jets. Jack of all trades, King of none.

                 

                   For the record; I’m 177cm (5’10”), with a pants inseam of 32” (91cm), wt. 152 lbs. wet. 172.5mm cranks.

                 

                   I’ll keep ya’ll posted, and thanks again for your help.

                 

                Quick notes:

                   I’ve been beta testing some Rotorcranks, and while they seem to eliminate dead spots like they claim, I’m not sure they’re the absolute answer to greater power and efficiency. They’re also about a pound heavier than my Ultegra cranks and BB… I’ll send Spinscan files out to anyone if they want to see them. I’m going to do two 10-minute tests on side-by-side computrainers, one on the Y-foil with the Rotorcranks, and the other on a 5200 54cm with standard Ultegra. I’ll do these blindfolded, so we can see which one provides a mechanical advantage based on perception, rather than optical feedback.

                 

                Sincerely,

                 

                Richard P. Wharton

                Owner/Operator

                Off-Road Athletics/onlinebikecoach.com

                 

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Rick Warner [mailto:rickwarner@...]
                Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2002 12:10 PM
                To: yfoil@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [yfoil] Still vexed about Air Rail fork, rake, and handling

                 


                Richard,

                I doubt that the Rock Shox Ruby had any influence on rake of the Icon
                selected for the Y.
                On current models of bikes, e.g., the 5500 and 5200, Trek uses two
                different rake Air Rails;
                a shorter rake fork on large frames, and long rake fork on short
                frames.  The issue is keeping
                the wheelbase relatively long and stable on short frames, short and
                responsive on the larger
                frames.  You see they did the same with the Y; if you look at the
                geometries on the Spec
                sheets Matt posted to the Yahoo site (thanks Matt) you will see that frames
                54 cm and
                smaller had a 4.7 cm (47 mm) rake, frames 56 cm and larger had a 4.3 cm
                rake.  The Y
                is a relatively short wheelbase bike, so ultra-short rakes would have made
                the bike a bit
                twitchy for your average rider.  Some folks, esp. crit racers, like to have
                a more responsive
                steering than a stock bike and opt for shorter rake forks.  My guess is
                that if you put a
                40 mm rake Reynold's on your 54 cm Y that you will have a bike that is very
                responsiveness in the
                steering, to the point that some might consider it twitchy.  The actual
                change is small (7 mm,
                or about 1/4") but it might be significant.  You might see if you can find
                a crit rider with a short
                frame bike that has a short rake fork to see how it handles.

                BTW, you must have body measurements, in part, similar to mine.  I am on
                the cusp between
                54 cm and 56 cm frame sizes (69" height, 30" inseam).  Optimum stem length
                for me seems
                to be 10 cm, and given that the top tube difference between the 54 and 56
                is 2 cm it would
                be reasonable to presume that I would need a 12 cm stem on a 54, the same
                as you.  I opted to
                go to the larger frame based on the fit of my steel bike (53 cm C-C, which
                measures 56 cm C-T
                like Trek measures).

                Good luck on the decision.

                - rick -

                At 02:04 PM 7/27/2002 -0500, you wrote:

                >Y-foilers,
                >
                >     I ve been pursuing the effort of replacing the Air Rail fork on my
                > 54cm Red Y with something more aerodynamic and lighter, and also going
                > with something that I can make threadless. The cost of the project
                > through my LBS (I don t trust myself to do this) is in the $900 range,
                > but considering that that is half the price of a USPS TT frame (2001
                > model available&), I m still hunting. Vette Racer gave me a great lead
                > with the Serotta HeadsUp device, which is a definite, but I m still
                > confused about rake & handling.
                >
                >
                >
                >The rake of the Air Rail is 47mm. The rake of an Aero Reynolds (1st
                >choice) has a rake of 40mm. The Q-Pro is a great fork as well, though not
                >quite as aero, and has a rake of 42 or 44mm. Now, where I get confused is
                >here; Obviously Trek was using the 47mm fork to accommodate the Rock Shox
                >Ruby, which is nowhere to be found nowadays, and that leaves us high & dry
                >in the replacement fork department. Anyway, if there are any gurus out
                >there who could give me an honest opinion about the effort. I m also
                >riding with a 120mm stem, and I m starting to think that the 54, which was
                >a replacement for a 56 that was claimed to be too big by Ben Serotta
                >himself, may just be too small. This is an all-rounder bike, not just a
                >dedicated TT bike.
                >
                >
                >
                >Lemme know what ya ll think. Will a 40mm rake Reynolds with the Serotta
                >HeadsUP make the bike too twitchy or too slow? Will having a 40mm rake put
                >me too far forward over the front of the bike, and can I stay balanced on
                >the machine in aero position?
                >
                >
                >
                >I love the y; it s just SO DAMNED DIFFICULT!
                >
                >
                >
                >Sincerely,
                >
                >
                >
                >Richard P. Wharton
                >
                >Owner/Operator
                >
                >Off-Road Athletics/onlinebikecoach.com
                >
                >



                To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                yfoil-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
              • Juraj Betak
                Has anyone thought of using a carbon cyclocross fork? It seems to be a good fit - at least lengthwise:
                Message 7 of 7 , Oct 19, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  Has anyone thought of using a carbon cyclocross fork? It seems to be a
                  good fit - at least lengthwise:

                  http://shop.store.yahoo.com/cyclocrossworld/trutemcrosfo.html

                  I wonder how it would affect the handling and aerodynamics...

                  Cheers,
                  J.


                  --- In yfoil@y..., "whareagle2000" <rwharton@o...> wrote:
                  > Hello Fellow Y-Foilers!
                  > Glad I stumbled into this group, and I hope I can contribute! I've
                  > been a Y-foiler for about a year now, and I'm looking for some
                  > suggestions about potential pitfalls if I update my 54cm Y-foil to a
                  > more aerodynamic and lighter fork.
                  >
                  > Is the current fork aerodynamic enough?
                  >
                  > Is there a solution for the "2cm" difference between the crown of the
                  > Air Rail and the standard crowns of today's Reynolds' or Alpha Q's?
                  >
                  > What have people's experiences been with upgrading to threadless
                  > headsets?
                  >
                  > Any feedback would be appreciated.
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.