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Y v. Madone (was Re: Katy Flatland Century)

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  • johnorear
    What a coincidence - I had a chance to try out a Madone 5.2 just a few weeks ago. Excusing the difference in equipment (his is Ultegra, mine is Chorus, let s
    Message 1 of 9 , Aug 1, 2005
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      What a coincidence - I had a chance to try out a Madone 5.2 just a
      few weeks ago.

      Excusing the difference in equipment (his is Ultegra, mine is
      Chorus, let's not go there), the Madone seemed a bit stiffer
      overall, perhaps a bit tighter handling. Wasn't as smooth, didn't
      seem to pick up speed on the downhills quite as quickly, might have
      been a bit better at climbing.

      On the other hand... putting this well used and not terribly well
      cared for Madone next to my unscratched, waxed once a month gold
      Y77... no comparison at all. The Foil still draws a crowd on club
      outings.

      Bottom line: after that ride, I felt no urge to trade.

      --John



      --- In yfoil@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony" <aejc@H...> wrote:
      > Y-foil v Madone 5.9
      >
      > Nicholas,
      >
      > Prior to owning a Madone, I was curious as to how the lighter
      weight
      > of the Madone would compare to the superior aerodynamics of the Y.
      > If I recall correctly, the Y-foil frame is about 30% more
      aerodynamic
      > than
      > a conventional design, while the shark fin and oval tubes of the
      > Madone are about 8% more aerodynamic than a conventional frame. I
      am
      > not certain how frame aerodynamic advantages translate to overall
      > bike aerodynamic advantages, but it would obviously be somewhat
      less.
      > However, my heavier Y-foil may still hold a theoretical advantage
      > once the bikes are moving (after overcoming inertia of standing
      > still).
      >
      > When it arrived, my Madone 5.9 weighed 15-3/4 lbs without pedals
      > (note: the Madone 5.9 is 110 OCLV; the Madone 5.2 is 120 OCLV). I
      > have swapped wheelsets to Rolf Prima Elan Aeros (I'm still riding
      > clinchers) and made a couple of other adjustments, and now it
      weighs
      > just over 15.5 lbs with pedals. On the other hand, I have not done
      > much to the Y, and it weighs 19 lbs (Rolf Vector Pro wheels,
      Ultegra
      > drivetrain, DuraAce brakes). Additionally, both bikes are geared
      > somewhat similarly (non-stock cog distribution to allow a wide
      range
      > of gears with a double; of course, the Madone has an extra cog).
      >
      > I weigh about 138 +/- 3 lbs -- many riders under 130 find the
      Madone
      > overly stiff, some riders over 180 lbs complain that it is not
      stiff
      > enough. I guess the bike is truly optimized around a particular
      160
      > lb rider ;-). (I live in Austin, and Lance's bikes are sometimes
      > delivered to my local bike shop. Kevin Lingston's ProjectOne
      Madone
      > 5.9 arrived at the shop a week prior to mine.)
      >
      > As you probably expect, the ride of the Y is smoother, while the
      Madone is stiffer.
      >
      > I truly enjoy the Y against the wind: on windy days, I prefer the
      Y.
      >
      > On flats, it is a toss-up. My average speed is usually about 0.3
      mph
      > (< 2%) faster on the Madone on a 48-mile course that I often ride
      on
      > Saturday mornings solo.
      >
      > Climbing: the Madone, by far. Even though the {5900, Madone} SL
      was
      > designed for climbing, the Madone 5.9 works well for climbs as
      well.
      > One of my standard weekday rides is about 26 miles with 2500 feet
      of
      > climbs, and I far prefer the Madone.
      >
      > Looks when standing still: the Y-foil, particularly my ice inkwell
      > version with low-spoke wheels. I now have a Postal Blue -- nice,
      but
      > in comparison to the '98s, I think the decals are somewhat overdone
      > on the '99s. (I am reluctant to paint the frame given warranty
      > issues, but a Texas flag design suggested earlier this week appeals
      > to me.)
      >
      > That said, the jump from entry level to a Y-foil is huge, but the
      > performance gap between the Y-foil and a Madone is not as much bang
      > for the buck. Additionally, I could tweak the Y-foil to lessen the
      > performance gap, so, apart from hills, the older technology of the
      Y is still a winner.
      >
      > Anthony
    • Gene Richardson
      John, If I may ask is Camphy s stuff that much better then Shimano? I was considering changing over. I to have Ultegra on my gold Y . Will I notice a real
      Message 2 of 9 , Aug 1, 2005
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        John,
        If I may ask is Camphy's stuff that much better then Shimano? I was considering changing over. I to have Ultegra on my gold Y . Will I notice a real difference with Campy equiptment? Your opinion would be appreciated. Thank you Gene
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: johnorear
        To: yfoil@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 7:03 PM
        Subject: [yfoil] Y v. Madone (was Re: Katy Flatland Century)


        What a coincidence - I had a chance to try out a Madone 5.2 just a
        few weeks ago.

        Excusing the difference in equipment (his is Ultegra, mine is
        Chorus, let's not go there), the Madone seemed a bit stiffer
        overall, perhaps a bit tighter handling. Wasn't as smooth, didn't
        seem to pick up speed on the downhills quite as quickly, might have
        been a bit better at climbing.

        On the other hand... putting this well used and not terribly well
        cared for Madone next to my unscratched, waxed once a month gold
        Y77... no comparison at all. The Foil still draws a crowd on club
        outings.

        Bottom line: after that ride, I felt no urge to trade.

        --John



        --- In yfoil@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony" <aejc@H...> wrote:
        > Y-foil v Madone 5.9
        >
        > Nicholas,
        >
        > Prior to owning a Madone, I was curious as to how the lighter
        weight
        > of the Madone would compare to the superior aerodynamics of the Y.
        > If I recall correctly, the Y-foil frame is about 30% more
        aerodynamic
        > than
        > a conventional design, while the shark fin and oval tubes of the
        > Madone are about 8% more aerodynamic than a conventional frame. I
        am
        > not certain how frame aerodynamic advantages translate to overall
        > bike aerodynamic advantages, but it would obviously be somewhat
        less.
        > However, my heavier Y-foil may still hold a theoretical advantage
        > once the bikes are moving (after overcoming inertia of standing
        > still).
        >
        > When it arrived, my Madone 5.9 weighed 15-3/4 lbs without pedals
        > (note: the Madone 5.9 is 110 OCLV; the Madone 5.2 is 120 OCLV). I
        > have swapped wheelsets to Rolf Prima Elan Aeros (I'm still riding
        > clinchers) and made a couple of other adjustments, and now it
        weighs
        > just over 15.5 lbs with pedals. On the other hand, I have not done
        > much to the Y, and it weighs 19 lbs (Rolf Vector Pro wheels,
        Ultegra
        > drivetrain, DuraAce brakes). Additionally, both bikes are geared
        > somewhat similarly (non-stock cog distribution to allow a wide
        range
        > of gears with a double; of course, the Madone has an extra cog).
        >
        > I weigh about 138 +/- 3 lbs -- many riders under 130 find the
        Madone
        > overly stiff, some riders over 180 lbs complain that it is not
        stiff
        > enough. I guess the bike is truly optimized around a particular
        160
        > lb rider ;-). (I live in Austin, and Lance's bikes are sometimes
        > delivered to my local bike shop. Kevin Lingston's ProjectOne
        Madone
        > 5.9 arrived at the shop a week prior to mine.)
        >
        > As you probably expect, the ride of the Y is smoother, while the
        Madone is stiffer.
        >
        > I truly enjoy the Y against the wind: on windy days, I prefer the
        Y.
        >
        > On flats, it is a toss-up. My average speed is usually about 0.3
        mph
        > (< 2%) faster on the Madone on a 48-mile course that I often ride
        on
        > Saturday mornings solo.
        >
        > Climbing: the Madone, by far. Even though the {5900, Madone} SL
        was
        > designed for climbing, the Madone 5.9 works well for climbs as
        well.
        > One of my standard weekday rides is about 26 miles with 2500 feet
        of
        > climbs, and I far prefer the Madone.
        >
        > Looks when standing still: the Y-foil, particularly my ice inkwell
        > version with low-spoke wheels. I now have a Postal Blue -- nice,
        but
        > in comparison to the '98s, I think the decals are somewhat overdone
        > on the '99s. (I am reluctant to paint the frame given warranty
        > issues, but a Texas flag design suggested earlier this week appeals
        > to me.)
        >
        > That said, the jump from entry level to a Y-foil is huge, but the
        > performance gap between the Y-foil and a Madone is not as much bang
        > for the buck. Additionally, I could tweak the Y-foil to lessen the
        > performance gap, so, apart from hills, the older technology of the
        Y is still a winner.
        >
        > Anthony





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      • Nick Nguyen
        I ve built and ridden a campy equipped y-foil. I think at this point both STI and Ergopower work extremely well. One of the big advantages of Ergopower is
        Message 3 of 9 , Aug 2, 2005
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          I've built and ridden a campy equipped y-foil. I think at this point both
          STI and Ergopower work extremely well. One of the big advantages of
          Ergopower is the rebuildability/upgradability of the levers. Unlike
          Shimano, every small part in an ergopower lever is a service part that can
          be ordered from campy. Additionally, most ergopower levers can be upgraded
          from 9 to 10 speed with the replacement of a small inexpensive part.

          Not true with Shimano. Also, campy tends to look cleaner due to the aero
          routing of both shifter and brake cables. In practice, function is not all
          that different, both manufacturers work quite well and Shimano is cheaper up
          front (though perhaps not long term). Some people prefer the greater
          adjustability of ergopower when riding. Not sure it is worth replacing your
          entire gruppo including your rear hub to make the switch, though. Like
          Shimano, the sweet spot is one rung down from the top. Chorus works just as
          well as Record and only lacks what is to me largely cosmetic carbon fiber.
          But there is always the issue of cost. I for one would take Dura-Ace 10 in
          a heartbeat over Chorus, considering that the cost differential is about
          $100.

          >From: "Gene Richardson" <glzlri@...>
          >Reply-To: yfoil@yahoogroups.com
          >To: <yfoil@yahoogroups.com>
          >Subject: Re: [yfoil] Y v. Madone (was Re: Katy Flatland Century)
          >Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 19:52:55 -0700
          >
          >John,
          > If I may ask is Camphy's stuff that much better then Shimano? I was
          >considering changing over. I to have Ultegra on my gold Y . Will I notice a
          >real difference with Campy equiptment? Your opinion would be appreciated.
          >Thank you Gene
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: johnorear
          > To: yfoil@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 7:03 PM
          > Subject: [yfoil] Y v. Madone (was Re: Katy Flatland Century)
          >
          >
          > What a coincidence - I had a chance to try out a Madone 5.2 just a
          > few weeks ago.
          >
          > Excusing the difference in equipment (his is Ultegra, mine is
          > Chorus, let's not go there), the Madone seemed a bit stiffer
          > overall, perhaps a bit tighter handling. Wasn't as smooth, didn't
          > seem to pick up speed on the downhills quite as quickly, might have
          > been a bit better at climbing.
          >
          > On the other hand... putting this well used and not terribly well
          > cared for Madone next to my unscratched, waxed once a month gold
          > Y77... no comparison at all. The Foil still draws a crowd on club
          > outings.
          >
          > Bottom line: after that ride, I felt no urge to trade.
          >
          > --John
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In yfoil@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony" <aejc@H...> wrote:
          > > Y-foil v Madone 5.9
          > >
          > > Nicholas,
          > >
          > > Prior to owning a Madone, I was curious as to how the lighter
          > weight
          > > of the Madone would compare to the superior aerodynamics of the Y.
          > > If I recall correctly, the Y-foil frame is about 30% more
          > aerodynamic
          > > than
          > > a conventional design, while the shark fin and oval tubes of the
          > > Madone are about 8% more aerodynamic than a conventional frame. I
          > am
          > > not certain how frame aerodynamic advantages translate to overall
          > > bike aerodynamic advantages, but it would obviously be somewhat
          > less.
          > > However, my heavier Y-foil may still hold a theoretical advantage
          > > once the bikes are moving (after overcoming inertia of standing
          > > still).
          > >
          > > When it arrived, my Madone 5.9 weighed 15-3/4 lbs without pedals
          > > (note: the Madone 5.9 is 110 OCLV; the Madone 5.2 is 120 OCLV). I
          > > have swapped wheelsets to Rolf Prima Elan Aeros (I'm still riding
          > > clinchers) and made a couple of other adjustments, and now it
          > weighs
          > > just over 15.5 lbs with pedals. On the other hand, I have not done
          > > much to the Y, and it weighs 19 lbs (Rolf Vector Pro wheels,
          > Ultegra
          > > drivetrain, DuraAce brakes). Additionally, both bikes are geared
          > > somewhat similarly (non-stock cog distribution to allow a wide
          > range
          > > of gears with a double; of course, the Madone has an extra cog).
          > >
          > > I weigh about 138 +/- 3 lbs -- many riders under 130 find the
          > Madone
          > > overly stiff, some riders over 180 lbs complain that it is not
          > stiff
          > > enough. I guess the bike is truly optimized around a particular
          > 160
          > > lb rider ;-). (I live in Austin, and Lance's bikes are sometimes
          > > delivered to my local bike shop. Kevin Lingston's ProjectOne
          > Madone
          > > 5.9 arrived at the shop a week prior to mine.)
          > >
          > > As you probably expect, the ride of the Y is smoother, while the
          > Madone is stiffer.
          > >
          > > I truly enjoy the Y against the wind: on windy days, I prefer the
          > Y.
          > >
          > > On flats, it is a toss-up. My average speed is usually about 0.3
          > mph
          > > (< 2%) faster on the Madone on a 48-mile course that I often ride
          > on
          > > Saturday mornings solo.
          > >
          > > Climbing: the Madone, by far. Even though the {5900, Madone} SL
          > was
          > > designed for climbing, the Madone 5.9 works well for climbs as
          > well.
          > > One of my standard weekday rides is about 26 miles with 2500 feet
          > of
          > > climbs, and I far prefer the Madone.
          > >
          > > Looks when standing still: the Y-foil, particularly my ice inkwell
          > > version with low-spoke wheels. I now have a Postal Blue -- nice,
          > but
          > > in comparison to the '98s, I think the decals are somewhat overdone
          > > on the '99s. (I am reluctant to paint the frame given warranty
          > > issues, but a Texas flag design suggested earlier this week appeals
          > > to me.)
          > >
          > > That said, the jump from entry level to a Y-foil is huge, but the
          > > performance gap between the Y-foil and a Madone is not as much bang
          > > for the buck. Additionally, I could tweak the Y-foil to lessen the
          > > performance gap, so, apart from hills, the older technology of the
          > Y is still a winner.
          > >
          > > Anthony
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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          >
          > a.. Visit your group "yfoil" on the web.
          >
          > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > yfoil-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
          >Service.
          >
          >
          >------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          >
          >
          >
          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • johnorear
          Gene: That s a real can of worms. Campy vs Shimano. Here s my take: I built my Foil up from a bare frame, so the choice of group was up in the air. At the time
          Message 4 of 9 , Aug 11, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            Gene:

            That's a real can of worms. Campy vs Shimano. Here's my take:

            I built my Foil up from a bare frame, so the choice of group was up
            in the air. At the time I built it (2002), Campy Chorus and Ultegra
            were pretty much neck and neck in price. My college days Falcon San
            Remo was all Campy NR gear, and I started cycling at a time when
            Campy was king and Dura Ace was a bit of a joke. I chose Campy
            partially because that's what I was raised on, and I just couldn't
            picture building my dream bike without a Campy group. Also, I have
            compared the Campy and Shimano shifters, and personally prefer the
            more positive action of the Campy shifters. But that could just be
            owner's bias...

            Three years on, and the Chorus group has performed flawlessly. Once
            past the initial cable stretch, it has been maintenance free, with
            only a bit of rear der. adjustment when changing wheelsets.

            If the truth be told, switching from Ultegra to Chorus probably
            won't net you any improvement. It's really a personal taste thing,
            like wearing an Armani suit.

            Is it worth the expense? Probably not, but given the absurd prices
            used groups bring on ebay, you may be able to change over and
            recover the bulk of your costs. Check cbike.com for Campy groups,
            that's where I got mine.

            --John








            --- In yfoil@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Richardson" <glzlri@p...> wrote:
            > John,
            > If I may ask is Camphy's stuff that much better then Shimano? I
            was considering changing over. I to have Ultegra on my gold Y . Will
            I notice a real difference with Campy equiptment? Your opinion
            would be appreciated. Thank you Gene
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: johnorear
            > To: yfoil@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 7:03 PM
            > Subject: [yfoil] Y v. Madone (was Re: Katy Flatland Century)
            >
            >
            > What a coincidence - I had a chance to try out a Madone 5.2 just
            a
            > few weeks ago.
            >
            > Excusing the difference in equipment (his is Ultegra, mine is
            > Chorus, let's not go there), the Madone seemed a bit stiffer
            > overall, perhaps a bit tighter handling. Wasn't as smooth,
            didn't
            > seem to pick up speed on the downhills quite as quickly, might
            have
            > been a bit better at climbing.
            >
            > On the other hand... putting this well used and not terribly
            well
            > cared for Madone next to my unscratched, waxed once a month gold
            > Y77... no comparison at all. The Foil still draws a crowd on
            club
            > outings.
            >
            > Bottom line: after that ride, I felt no urge to trade.
            >
            > --John
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In yfoil@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony" <aejc@H...> wrote:
            > > Y-foil v Madone 5.9
            > >
            > > Nicholas,
            > >
            > > Prior to owning a Madone, I was curious as to how the lighter
            > weight
            > > of the Madone would compare to the superior aerodynamics of
            the Y.
            > > If I recall correctly, the Y-foil frame is about 30% more
            > aerodynamic
            > > than
            > > a conventional design, while the shark fin and oval tubes of
            the
            > > Madone are about 8% more aerodynamic than a conventional
            frame. I
            > am
            > > not certain how frame aerodynamic advantages translate to
            overall
            > > bike aerodynamic advantages, but it would obviously be
            somewhat
            > less.
            > > However, my heavier Y-foil may still hold a theoretical
            advantage
            > > once the bikes are moving (after overcoming inertia of standing
            > > still).
            > >
            > > When it arrived, my Madone 5.9 weighed 15-3/4 lbs without
            pedals
            > > (note: the Madone 5.9 is 110 OCLV; the Madone 5.2 is 120
            OCLV). I
            > > have swapped wheelsets to Rolf Prima Elan Aeros (I'm still
            riding
            > > clinchers) and made a couple of other adjustments, and now it
            > weighs
            > > just over 15.5 lbs with pedals. On the other hand, I have not
            done
            > > much to the Y, and it weighs 19 lbs (Rolf Vector Pro wheels,
            > Ultegra
            > > drivetrain, DuraAce brakes). Additionally, both bikes are
            geared
            > > somewhat similarly (non-stock cog distribution to allow a wide
            > range
            > > of gears with a double; of course, the Madone has an extra
            cog).
            > >
            > > I weigh about 138 +/- 3 lbs -- many riders under 130 find the
            > Madone
            > > overly stiff, some riders over 180 lbs complain that it is not
            > stiff
            > > enough. I guess the bike is truly optimized around a
            particular
            > 160
            > > lb rider ;-). (I live in Austin, and Lance's bikes are
            sometimes
            > > delivered to my local bike shop. Kevin Lingston's ProjectOne
            > Madone
            > > 5.9 arrived at the shop a week prior to mine.)
            > >
            > > As you probably expect, the ride of the Y is smoother, while
            the
            > Madone is stiffer.
            > >
            > > I truly enjoy the Y against the wind: on windy days, I prefer
            the
            > Y.
            > >
            > > On flats, it is a toss-up. My average speed is usually about
            0.3
            > mph
            > > (< 2%) faster on the Madone on a 48-mile course that I often
            ride
            > on
            > > Saturday mornings solo.
            > >
            > > Climbing: the Madone, by far. Even though the {5900, Madone}
            SL
            > was
            > > designed for climbing, the Madone 5.9 works well for climbs as
            > well.
            > > One of my standard weekday rides is about 26 miles with 2500
            feet
            > of
            > > climbs, and I far prefer the Madone.
            > >
            > > Looks when standing still: the Y-foil, particularly my ice
            inkwell
            > > version with low-spoke wheels. I now have a Postal Blue --
            nice,
            > but
            > > in comparison to the '98s, I think the decals are somewhat
            overdone
            > > on the '99s. (I am reluctant to paint the frame given warranty
            > > issues, but a Texas flag design suggested earlier this week
            appeals
            > > to me.)
            > >
            > > That said, the jump from entry level to a Y-foil is huge, but
            the
            > > performance gap between the Y-foil and a Madone is not as much
            bang
            > > for the buck. Additionally, I could tweak the Y-foil to
            lessen the
            > > performance gap, so, apart from hills, the older technology of
            the
            > Y is still a winner.
            > >
            > > Anthony
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > -------------------------------------------------------------------
            -----------
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            >
            > a.. Visit your group "yfoil" on the web.
            >
            > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > yfoil-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
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            >
            >
            > -------------------------------------------------------------------
            -----------
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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