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Re: [ydn-patterns] Pattern Libraries: standardizing and sharing

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  • Christian Crumlish
    hey, wasn t sure where we left this discussion, so I wanted to post a little update. This summer, my intern, Chris Hanrath, did an analysis of the standard
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 6, 2008
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      hey, wasn't sure where we left this discussion, so I wanted to post a little update.

      This summer, my intern, Chris Hanrath, did an analysis of the standard pattern elements in a number of well known UI pattern libraries and also took a look at PLML as currently implemented (in a 1.x version) at welie.com.

      My goal is to employ a very similar (as close as possible) version of PLML in the upcoming redesigned Yahoo pattern library and thus - by converging with Welie - create some momentum for de facto standard.

      One reason why I care about this is that we have several distinct pattern collections inside Yahoo and I'd like to be able to share or migrate patterns more readily.

      Folks working on Fluid's open source design pattern library also seem interested in exploring this possibility.

      Furthermore, I was at PLoP last month and the non-UI patterns people there also seemed interested in (a) forging stronger ties with the UI design pattern community and (b) looking into the use of PLML as well (in which case we might need to take care not to "tune it" too closely to the current tradition of UI patterns but allow it to be flexible enough to embrace the wider world of patterns (which have many of the same sharing and management issues we face).

      As soon as I get a moment, I'm going to post some of our working documents to the appropriate forum at Yahoo's library, at which point I'll post a link here and ask for comments and feedback.

          --xian



      dexterstonehaus wrote:

      Hello group!

      I'm working with a group to build yet another pattern library and want
      to make sure that it's aligned to add to the existing set of
      libraries, rather than duplicate.

      I've been ramping up on the recent history of UI/Web PL's and found a
      slide in one of Christian's presentations that briefly touched upon
      formats for sharing patterns - PLMLx and a possible Microformat.

      My initial exploration of PLMLx 1.0 seems to suggest it hasn't been
      worked on in 3+ years. I know a few libraries are using PLML which
      suggests its the prime (if only) candidate for a sharing format, but
      surely there must be some criticism and room for improvement :P

      Anyhow, I'm interested in any sort of information about initiatives to
      combine efforts and would love to hear from anyone about other issues
      besides technology that are being discussed.

      Cheers.
      -Ryan






















      --
      christian crumlish ... xian21370
      patternista ... YDN UED (Y!OS)
    • Phillip Senn
      I m not sure I understand what a design pattern is in relation to web design, because the phrase design pattern in programming has a more abstract meaning than
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 6, 2008
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        I'm not sure I understand what a design pattern is in relation to web
        design, because the phrase design pattern in programming has a more
        abstract meaning than what I think it means in web design.

        Having said that, I am looking for templates for YUI CSS Grids.
        Am I in the right place?

        My thought is to find a template library like the ones shown below,
        but for YUI.


        http://cssmania.com/
        http://www.styleshout.com/
        http://www.dreamtemplate.com/
        http://www.devianart.com/
        http://www.free-css-templates.com/help/
        http://www.freelayouts.com/websites/html-templates
        http://members.freewebs.com/
        http://www.freecsstemplates.org/
        http://www.tjkdesign.com/templates/
        http://doodlekit.com/home
        http://www.websitetemplates.name/
        http://www.templatemonster.com
      • dexterstonehaus
        Hey Christian, Great to hear that you guys had a chance to gather some research over the summer. Our pattern language initiative ended up losing steam fairly
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 9, 2008
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          Hey Christian,

          Great to hear that you guys had a chance to gather some research over
          the summer. Our pattern language initiative ended up losing steam
          fairly quickly earlier in the year, mostly due to bad timing.

          I'm still very interested in helping out with any work on
          standardizing a way to share patterns, though. So if either yourself
          or Martijn or anybody else has some work that needs to be done to keep
          momentum, I'm more than willing to help carry the torch.

          Looking forward to reading your findings, and happy to see this
          discussion happening again.

          Cheers.
          -Ryan

          --- In ydn-patterns@yahoogroups.com, Christian Crumlish <xian@...> wrote:
          >
          > hey, wasn't sure where we left this discussion, so I wanted to post a
          > little update.
          >
          > This summer, my intern, Chris Hanrath, did an analysis of the standard
          > pattern elements in a number of well known UI pattern libraries and
          also
          > took a look at PLML as currently implemented (in a 1.x version) at
          > welie.com.
          >
          > My goal is to employ a very similar (as close as possible) version of
          > PLML in the upcoming redesigned Yahoo pattern library and thus - by
          > converging with Welie - create some momentum for de facto standard.
          >
          > One reason why I care about this is that we have several distinct
          > pattern collections inside Yahoo and I'd like to be able to share or
          > migrate patterns more readily.
          >
          > Folks working on Fluid's open source design pattern library also seem
          > interested in exploring this possibility.
          >
          > Furthermore, I was at PLoP last month and the non-UI patterns people
          > there also seemed interested in (a) forging stronger ties with the UI
          > design pattern community and (b) looking into the use of PLML as well
          > (in which case we might need to take care not to "tune it" too closely
          > to the current tradition of UI patterns but allow it to be flexible
          > enough to embrace the wider world of patterns (which have many of the
          > same sharing and management issues we face).
          >
          > As soon as I get a moment, I'm going to post some of our working
          > documents to the appropriate forum at Yahoo's library, at which point
          > I'll post a link here and ask for comments and feedback.
          >
          > --xian
          >
          >
          >
          > dexterstonehaus wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello group!
          > >
          > > I'm working with a group to build yet another pattern library and want
          > > to make sure that it's aligned to add to the existing set of
          > > libraries, rather than duplicate.
          > >
          > > I've been ramping up on the recent history of UI/Web PL's and found a
          > > slide in one of Christian's presentations that briefly touched upon
          > > formats for sharing patterns - PLMLx and a possible Microformat.
          > >
          > > My initial exploration of PLMLx 1.0 seems to suggest it hasn't been
          > > worked on in 3+ years. I know a few libraries are using PLML which
          > > suggests its the prime (if only) candidate for a sharing format, but
          > > surely there must be some criticism and room for improvement :P
          > >
          > > Anyhow, I'm interested in any sort of information about initiatives to
          > > combine efforts and would love to hear from anyone about other issues
          > > besides technology that are being discussed.
          > >
          > > Cheers.
          > > -Ryan
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --
          > *christian crumlish * ... xian21370 <ymsgr:SendIM?xian21370>
          > patternista ... *YDN UED (Y!OS)*
          >
        • Livia Labate
          ... We are faced with the same situation and I think part of it is the effort needed to seed a new library (resource conflicts). Having said that, I m
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 10, 2008
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            > Our pattern language initiative ended up losing steam
            > fairly quickly earlier in the year, mostly due to bad timing.

            We are faced with the same situation and I think part of it is the
            effort needed to seed a new library (resource conflicts).

            Having said that, I'm interested in helping with the standardizing
            work because among other things, I believe it would help me with the
            issue above.

            (I'm interested in hearing other stories about failed attempts at
            pattern libraries though, perhaps a good separate conversation).
          • Christian Crumlish
            Phillip, did you ever get a reply to this? Design pattern does have at least 2 meanings in these parts. There is the gang of four type concept of a
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 24, 2008
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              Phillip, did you ever get a reply to this? Design pattern does have at least 2 meanings in these parts. There is the "gang of four" type concept of a software/programming/engineering/development/architecture type pattern, some of which get discussed in the YUI context, although not as a formal practice.

              Then there is a parallel tradition of what you might call UI patterns (or HCI patterns, interaction design patterns, user experience patterns, etc.). Some of these are very widget-y and can be tied closely to YUI (or other) code frameworks. Other are more product / rules / feature / design-y, and don't necessarily come down to button placement and dynamic behaviors.

              There is a grid pattern in the Yahoo design pattern library and it's related to the YUI CSS grid you're looking for. When you say templates, though, do you mean HTML examples or stencils for drawing programs?

                  --xian


              Phillip Senn wrote:

              I'm not sure I understand what a design pattern is in relation to web
              design, because the phrase design pattern in programming has a more
              abstract meaning than what I think it means in web design.

              Having said that, I am looking for templates for YUI CSS Grids.
              Am I in the right place?

              My thought is to find a template library like the ones shown below,
              but for YUI.

              http://cssmania. com/
              http://www.stylesho ut.com/
              http://www.dreamtem plate.com/
              http://www.devianar t.com/
              http://www.free- css-templates. com/help/
              http://www.freelayo uts.com/websites /html-templates
              http://members. freewebs. com/
              http://www.freecsst emplates. org/
              http://www.tjkdesig n.com/templates/
              http://doodlekit. com/home
              http://www.websitet emplates. name/
              http://www.template monster.com


              --
              christian crumlish ... xian21370
              patternista ... YDN UED (Y!OS)
            • Phillip Senn
              Xian, Thank you SO MUCH for replying. ... HTML examples. For instance, I took this person s page: http://www.newbeginningsfamilyservices.org/kristie/index.html
              Message 6 of 11 , Nov 24, 2008
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                Xian,

                Thank you SO MUCH for replying.
                > Do you mean HTML examples or stencils for drawing programs?
                HTML examples.
                For instance, I took this person's page: http://www.newbeginningsfamilyservices.org/kristie/index.html 
                and converted it into a yui page: http://www.aacr9.com/Index/Kristie/Index.htm 

                So I'm looking for HTML templates built in YUI CSS Grids.
                > There is a grid pattern in the Yahoo design pattern library
                Oh wow!  Look at that!



                On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 2:30 PM, Christian Crumlish <xian@...> wrote:
                > Phillip, did you ever get a reply to this? Design pattern does have at least
                > 2 meanings in these parts. There is the "gang of four" type concept of a
                > software/programming/engineering/development/architecture type pattern, some
                > of which get discussed in the YUI context, although not as a formal
                > practice.
                >
                > Then there is a parallel tradition of what you might call UI patterns (or
                > HCI patterns, interaction design patterns, user experience patterns, etc.).
                > Some of these are very widget-y and can be tied closely to YUI (or other)
                > code frameworks. Other are more product / rules / feature / design-y, and
                > don't necessarily come down to button placement and dynamic behaviors.
                >
                > There is a grid pattern in the Yahoo design pattern library and it's related
                > to the YUI CSS grid you're looking for. When you say templates, though, do
                > you mean HTML examples or stencils for drawing programs?
                >
                >     --xian
                >
                >
                > Phillip Senn wrote:
                >
                > I'm not sure I understand what a design pattern is in relation to web
                > design, because the phrase design pattern in programming has a more
                > abstract meaning than what I think it means in web design.
                >
                > Having said that, I am looking for templates for YUI CSS Grids.
                > Am I in the right place?
                >
                > My thought is to find a template library like the ones shown below,
                > but for YUI.
                >
                > http://cssmania.com/
                > http://www.styleshout.com/
                > http://www.dreamtemplate.com/
                > http://www.devianart.com/
                > http://www.free-css-templates.com/help/
                > http://www.freelayouts.com/websites/html-templates
                > http://members.freewebs.com/
                > http://www.freecsstemplates.org/
                > http://www.tjkdesign.com/templates/
                > http://doodlekit.com/home
                > http://www.websitetemplates.name/
                > http://www.templatemonster.com
                >
                >
                > --
                > christian crumlish ... xian21370
                > patternista ... YDN UED (Y!OS)
                >
                >

              • Christian Crumlish
                ... OK, so let s start with YUI. The main entry related to CSS Grids is http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/grids/ A tool for quickly mocking up valid YUI grids is
                Message 7 of 11 , Nov 24, 2008
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                  --- In ydn-patterns@yahoogroups.com, "Phillip Senn" <phillipsenn@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Xian,
                  >
                  > Thank you SO MUCH for replying.
                  > > Do you mean HTML examples or stencils for drawing programs?
                  > HTML examples.
                  > For instance, I took this person's page:
                  > http://www.newbeginningsfamilyservices.org/kristie/index.html
                  > and converted it into a yui page:
                  > http://www.aacr9.com/Index/Kristie/Index.htm
                  >
                  > So I'm looking for HTML templates built in YUI CSS Grids.

                  OK, so let's start with YUI. The main entry related to CSS Grids is
                  http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/grids/

                  A tool for quickly mocking up valid YUI grids is
                  http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/grids/builder/

                  A number of examples implementing the grids are
                  http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/examples/grids/index.html

                  Also, there is a mailing list at http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ydn-javascript for
                  discussing the YUI code library.


                  > > There is a grid pattern in the Yahoo design pattern library
                  > http://developer.yahoo.com/ypatterns/pattern.php?pattern=grid
                  > Oh wow! Look at that!

                  This isn't a template but more of a guide to best practices.

                  Finally, the stencil kit at the pattern library has some grid diagrams for various drawing
                  programs
                  http://developer.yahoo.com/ypatterns/wireframes/

                  Hope this helps!

                  -xian-
                • Christian Crumlish
                  Ryan, thanks for the offer! I ll be posting some working documents on the ypatterns forum soon and will post a link here when I do that. --xian ... --
                  Message 8 of 11 , Nov 24, 2008
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                    Ryan, thanks for the offer! I'll be posting some working documents on the ypatterns forum soon and will post a link here when I do that.

                        --xian


                    dexterstonehaus wrote:

                    Hey Christian,

                    Great to hear that you guys had a chance to gather some research over
                    the summer. Our pattern language initiative ended up losing steam
                    fairly quickly earlier in the year, mostly due to bad timing.

                    I'm still very interested in helping out with any work on
                    standardizing a way to share patterns, though. So if either yourself
                    or Martijn or anybody else has some work that needs to be done to keep
                    momentum, I'm more than willing to help carry the torch.

                    Looking forward to reading your findings, and happy to see this
                    discussion happening again.

                    Cheers.
                    -Ryan

                    .


                    --
                    christian crumlish ... xian21370
                    patternista ... YDN UED (Y!OS)
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