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Re: [ydn-javascript] Re: YUI Compresser could produce shorter output

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  • Randall R Schulz
    ... Grotesque! Redundant punctuation does not accentuate readability, and any programmer who would make mistakes that result from reading code without braces
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 2, 2008
      On Sunday 02 November 2008 15:30, D. Wayne Fincher wrote:
      > That would be great if it weren't bad programming technique.

      Grotesque! Redundant punctuation does not accentuate readability, and
      any programmer who would make mistakes that result from reading code
      without braces as if it did should either:

      1) Find a new career.
      2) Use Python.


      > I presume you're not suggesting that the compressor take out curly
      > braces if the programmer did use them.

      Redundant is redundant. Why not remove them? Besides, the compressed
      code is not meant for human consumption, it's mean to load ASAP.


      > In which case, we're left with cases where the programmer doesn't use
      > them. But I don't speak for myself here. Every "code conventions" or
      > "programming standards" I've ever read suggests that curly braces
      > always be used.

      Gross. Grotesque! Hideous!!

      Programming is about thinking. Auto-pilot "coding conventions" that try
      to protect the programmer from his own inattention are not ultimately
      productive.


      Randall Schulz
    • Randall R Schulz
      ... Clearly a source change that alters the code s semantics is not acceptable for the compressor. Randall Schulz
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 2, 2008
        On Sunday 02 November 2008 15:52, Philip Tellis wrote:
        > c dropped bits saying:
        > > Remember, we're talking about compressed code, intended to be read
        > > by browsers, not humans. Style conventions don't apply here.
        >
        > Adding braces isn't purely a style convention. They're also used to
        > ensure that the machine does what the programmer intended. Taking
        > them out in compressed code makes for problems which are very hard to
        > debug because the code works in development, but not in production.

        Clearly a source change that alters the code's semantics is not
        acceptable for the compressor.


        Randall Schulz
      • Philip Tellis
        ... When 900 years old you reach, look as good, you will not. Hmm?
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 2, 2008
          RRS dropped bits saying:

          > On Sunday 02 November 2008 15:30, D. Wayne Fincher wrote:
          >> That would be great if it weren't bad programming technique.
          >
          > Grotesque! Redundant punctuation does not accentuate readability, and


          When 900 years old you reach, look as good, you will not. Hmm?

          :)
        • crlender
          ... Just tested it, and it works just as expected. ... No, it s *two* statements inside the outer if . And those semicolons are not optional, so taking them
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 2, 2008
            --- In ydn-javascript@yahoogroups.com, Philip Tellis <philip@...> wrote:
            > Try this code:
            >
            > if (map.hasOwnProperty(k)) {
            > if (!(k in target))
            > target[k] = map[k];
            > else
            > target[k] = null;
            > }

            Just tested it, and it works just as expected.

            > It's still one statement inside the outer if, but if you remove the
            > braces, you confuse the engine. Take out the semi colons for more fun.

            No, it's *two* statements inside the outer 'if'. And those semicolons
            are not optional, so taking them out *would* be a syntax error without
            line breaks.

            I'm not sure what you mean by the engine getting confused... I've
            never seen a JavaScript implementation that couldn't correctly parse
            control structures with or without redundant curlies. This is basic
            stuff. Or maybe did you mean the compressor engine could get confused?

            > In any event, what you're stating is a micro-optimisation that buys you
            > nothing if you also gzip your javascript before serving. All those
            > braces will compress into a single bit or something of that order.

            Sure, it's not that big a deal, but the compressor's output *could*
            be improved (even if only by a few hundred bytes per script) without
            sacrificing code integrity. Whether the developers choose to implement
            it that way is of course their choice.

            Regarding gzip: if we could just assume that gzip were universally
            available and supported, the compressor wouldn't have to go to all
            the trouble... just strip out comments and let gzip do the rest.


            - Conrad
          • Randall R Schulz
            ... Umm... Yes? Unless, perhaps, you re an acolyte of Ray Kurzweil. However, I fail to apprehend the significance of the assertion... RRS
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 2, 2008
              On Sunday 02 November 2008 16:11, Philip Tellis wrote:
              > RRS dropped bits saying:
              > > On Sunday 02 November 2008 15:30, D. Wayne Fincher wrote:
              > >> That would be great if it weren't bad programming technique.
              > >
              > > Grotesque! Redundant punctuation does not accentuate readability,
              > > and
              >
              > When 900 years old you reach, look as good, you will not. Hmm?
              >
              > :)


              Umm... Yes?

              Unless, perhaps, you're an acolyte of Ray Kurzweil.


              However, I fail to apprehend the significance of the assertion...


              RRS
            • crlender
              ... expected is an error ;) ... in code that doesn t run as you want it to. Dav, I may be misreading you, but I don t see how the example I posted could be
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 2, 2008
                --- In ydn-javascript@yahoogroups.com, dav.glass@... wrote:
                > I used the wrong term (syntax error), to me code that doesn't run as
                expected is an error ;)
                >
                > So not putting the braces in and compressing the line could result
                in code that doesn't run as you want it to.

                Dav, I may be misreading you, but I don't see how the example I posted
                could be interpreted in any other way than the example with braces. The
                ECMAScript standard specifies how these structures are to be parsed and
                evaluated; any difference would indicate a (severe) bug in the script
                engine.

                Just in case, let me mention that I personally do use braces even if
                they're not necessary, but a compressor doesn't get any bonus points
                for readable output.


                - Conrad
              • D. Wayne Fincher
                Code conventions aren t just about making code more readable . Anyone that attacks my post on that one single issue is taking part in a straw man. That is,
                Message 7 of 15 , Nov 2, 2008
                  Code conventions aren't just about "making code more readable".

                  Anyone that attacks my post on that one single issue is taking part in
                  a straw man. That is, instead of presenting a rebuttal based on the
                  argument at hand, you take another argument which is easier to rebut
                  and refute that one.

                  In this case, I never mentioned anything about the readability of the
                  code. And yet, a few posts only rebutted me on that point.

                  Classic straw man approach. ;)


                  --- In ydn-javascript@yahoogroups.com, "crlender" <crlender@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In ydn-javascript@yahoogroups.com, dav.glass@ wrote:
                  > > I used the wrong term (syntax error), to me code that doesn't run as
                  > expected is an error ;)
                  > >
                  > > So not putting the braces in and compressing the line could result
                  > in code that doesn't run as you want it to.
                  >
                  > Dav, I may be misreading you, but I don't see how the example I posted
                  > could be interpreted in any other way than the example with braces. The
                  > ECMAScript standard specifies how these structures are to be parsed and
                  > evaluated; any difference would indicate a (severe) bug in the script
                  > engine.
                  >
                  > Just in case, let me mention that I personally do use braces even if
                  > they're not necessary, but a compressor doesn't get any bonus points
                  > for readable output.
                  >
                  >
                  > - Conrad
                  >
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