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Insulation, condensation and stiffness

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  • Justin Craig
    Hey all, I m having a hell of a time with condensation. I m slowly finishing up the insulation, and working on ventilation. Some where in the past I read that
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 6, 2011
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      Hey all, 

      I'm having a hell of a time with condensation. I'm slowly finishing up the insulation, and working on ventilation. 

      Some where in the past I read that a Y30 owner received advice from S&S on prepping their boat for extended off-shore work. S&S recommended using expanding foam between the hull and liner in the forward cabin. Does anyone have details on this? What type of foam would one use? I'd like to spray the underside of the vee berth as well. 

      The liner is still really cold, and I'm getting a lot of condensation build up along side and under the mattress.   

      Any info on the matter (for insulation) is great, if anyone has the list of upgrades S&S recommended, I'd be very interested in seeing that.

      Justin
    • jokeed@aol.com
      Me too! I keep shop lites on while at the slip.... ... From: Justin Craig To: yankee30 Sent: Tue, Dec 6,
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 6, 2011
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        Me too!  I keep shop lites on while at the slip....


        -----Original Message-----
        From: Justin Craig <endeavor64@...>
        To: yankee30 <yankee30@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tue, Dec 6, 2011 4:38 pm
        Subject: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness

         
        Hey all, 

        I'm having a hell of a time with condensation. I'm slowly finishing up the insulation, and working on ventilation. 

        Some where in the past I read that a Y30 owner received advice from S&S on prepping their boat for extended off-shore work. S&S recommended using expanding foam between the hull and liner in the forward cabin. Does anyone have details on this? What type of foam would one use? I'd like to spray the underside of the vee berth as well. 

        The liner is still really cold, and I'm getting a lot of condensation build up along side and under the mattress.   

        Any info on the matter (for insulation) is great, if anyone has the list of upgrades S&S recommended, I'd be very interested in seeing that.

        Justin
      • js
        Justin; I have no idea where you would install expanding foam between the hull and liner in the forward cabin (vee berth). I have a MK1 and there are no
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 6, 2011
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          Justin;
           
          I have no idea where you would install expanding foam "between the hull and liner" in the forward cabin (vee berth). I have a MK1 and there are no voids in that location. There is no liner beneath the berth and no substantial void between the gear pockets on either side of the berth just below the deck or from the bottom of the gear pockets to the berth platform. The chain locker has no liner either. However, in the saloon, there is a void between the liner and the hull on the port side roughly four or so inches wide which extends from the bulkhead between the head and the saloon aft to the port cockpit locker. There is a void between the liner and the hull in the hanging locker as well.
           There is a product called Dry Bunk that Fisheries Supply (in Seattle) carries that helps with condensation under the mattress - and for everyone else, I think Defender carries it as well but I don't see it in the West Marine catalog. I bought some a few years ago and can say that it works as advertised. I keep my boat on a buoy and consequently do not have access to shore power. When I berthed in a marina I kept a small 1800W heater going pretty much all winter - naturally that drove up the electric bill significantly. Now I just use three small refillable containers of Dri-Z-Air (or an equivalent product, depending on price) and put one in the vee berth, one in the head and one in the galley and I also installed a solar-powered vent in the head. I also drilled some ventilation holes on the face of both the starboard settee and the aft dinette settee and  covered them with grills. I usually raise the back of the starboard settee as well to provide air circulation to the storage behind this area and I open the two lockers beneath the drawers in the vee berth and crack the doors on the hanging locker. Consequently, I never have problems with condensation or mold/mildew because keeping everything as open as possible provides enough air circulation. I refresh the Dri-Z-Air and dump the accumulated water in the containers every two weeks or so. Of course, having to adjust or close/open everything before and after a winter sail is a bit of a pain, but that's the price I pay for free moorage.  Hope this helps.
           
          JS
           
           
           
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 2:38 PM
          Subject: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness

           

          Hey all, 

          I'm having a hell of a time with condensation. I'm slowly finishing up the insulation, and working on ventilation. 

          Some where in the past I read that a Y30 owner received advice from S&S on prepping their boat for extended off-shore work. S&S recommended using expanding foam between the hull and liner in the forward cabin. Does anyone have details on this? What type of foam would one use? I'd like to spray the underside of the vee berth as well. 

          The liner is still really cold, and I'm getting a lot of condensation build up along side and under the mattress.   

          Any info on the matter (for insulation) is great, if anyone has the list of upgrades S&S recommended, I'd be very interested in seeing that.

          Justin

        • endeavor64@gmail.com
          Thanks for the reply, In my mkiii, there are no lockets or cubbies in the fwd cabin. If you tap on the liner you can tell its hallow behind it. Crawling into
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 6, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            Thanks for the reply,

            In my mkiii, there are no lockets or cubbies in the fwd cabin. If you tap on the liner you can tell its "hallow" behind it. Crawling into the locker under the matteress, I can fit my hand into the gap between the hull and liner. I read somewhere that this area can be filled with foam to increase fwd stiffness of the hull, a +. A by product would be the indulation factor. There is no liner under my mattress. In my last boat I used cedar lattice under the mattress to increase airflow, cheap, smells good and easy to find. I'll be adding lattice this week, but even still, the hull liner is cold and damp so I feel like something needs to be addressed there too. Btw, I am living aboard in seattle, electric heat runs when i'm here, a dehumidifier all the time.
            Sent from my LG phone

            js <4sje5@...> wrote:

            >Justin;
            >
            >I have no idea where you would install expanding foam "between the hull and liner" in the forward cabin (vee berth). I have a MK1 and there are no voids in that location. There is no liner beneath the berth and no substantial void between the gear pockets on either side of the berth just below the deck or from the bottom of the gear pockets to the berth platform. The chain locker has no liner either. However, in the saloon, there is a void between the liner and the hull on the port side roughly four or so inches wide which extends from the bulkhead between the head and the saloon aft to the port cockpit locker. There is a void between the liner and the hull in the hanging locker as well.
            > There is a product called Dry Bunk that Fisheries Supply (in Seattle) carries that helps with condensation under the mattress - and for everyone else, I think Defender carries it as well but I don't see it in the West Marine catalog. I bought some a few years ago and can say that it works as advertised. I keep my boat on a buoy and consequently do not have access to shore power. When I berthed in a marina I kept a small 1800W heater going pretty much all winter - naturally that drove up the electric bill significantly. Now I just use three small refillable containers of Dri-Z-Air (or an equivalent product, depending on price) and put one in the vee berth, one in the head and one in the galley and I also installed a solar-powered vent in the head. I also drilled some ventilation holes on the face of both the starboard settee and the aft dinette settee and covered them with grills. I usually raise the back of the starboard settee as well to provide air circulation to the storage behind this area and I open the two lockers beneath the drawers in the vee berth and crack the doors on the hanging locker. Consequently, I never have problems with condensation or mold/mildew because keeping everything as open as possible provides enough air circulation. I refresh the Dri-Z-Air and dump the accumulated water in the containers every two weeks or so. Of course, having to adjust or close/open everything before and after a winter sail is a bit of a pain, but that's the price I pay for free moorage. Hope this helps.
            >
            >JS
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Justin Craig
            > To: yankee30@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 2:38 PM
            > Subject: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness
            >
            >
            >
            > Hey all,
            >
            > I'm having a hell of a time with condensation. I'm slowly finishing up the insulation, and working on ventilation.
            >
            > Some where in the past I read that a Y30 owner received advice from S&S on prepping their boat for extended off-shore work. S&S recommended using expanding foam between the hull and liner in the forward cabin. Does anyone have details on this? What type of foam would one use? I'd like to spray the underside of the vee berth as well.
            >
            > The liner is still really cold, and I'm getting a lot of condensation build up along side and under the mattress.
            >
            > Any info on the matter (for insulation) is great, if anyone has the list of upgrades S&S recommended, I'd be very interested in seeing that.
            >
            > Justin
            >
            >
          • Justin Craig
            Here is what I ve found, A local yard says they would drill holes along the up end of the liner, and pour expanding foam in from the top. The bottom would need
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 8, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              Here is what I've found, A local yard says they would drill holes along the up end of the liner, and pour expanding foam in from the top. The bottom would need to be sealed off to keep the foam from spilling out.

              I spoke with a expanding foam guy at US Chemicals, he said don't use pour in. The travel is too short and it kicks too fast. He said to contact Hilti, they make injectable foam. like the ones below. One requires a hilti gun to inject the foam. the other is like what we'd buy at Home Depot. Hilti said the temp rating is the only difference. As long as it's above 41 degrees I can use the one that does not need the gun. It's not cheap at $22 a can but I'm going to give it a try.

              http://www.us.hilti.com/holus/page/module/product/prca_rangedetail.jsf?lang=en&nodeId=-68694#related_products
              http://www.us.hilti.com/holus/page/module/product/prca_rangedetail.jsf?lang=en&nodeId=-68687

              I'll report back.

              Justin

              On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 10:05 PM, endeavor64@... <endeavor64@...> wrote:
              Thanks for the reply,

              In my mkiii, there are no lockets or cubbies in the fwd cabin. If you tap on the liner you can tell its "hallow" behind it. Crawling into the locker under the matteress, I can fit my hand into the gap between the hull and liner. I read somewhere that this area can be filled with foam to increase fwd stiffness of the hull, a +. A by product would be the indulation factor. There is no liner under my mattress. In my last boat I used cedar lattice under the mattress to increase airflow, cheap, smells good and easy to find. I'll be adding lattice this week, but even still, the hull liner is cold and damp so I feel like something needs to be addressed there too. Btw, I am living aboard in seattle, electric heat runs when i'm here, a dehumidifier all the time.
              Sent from my LG phone



              js <4sje5@...> wrote:


               

              Justin;
               
              I have no idea where you would install expanding foam "between the hull and liner" in the forward cabin (vee berth). I have a MK1 and there are no voids in that location. There is no liner beneath the berth and no substantial void between the gear pockets on either side of the berth just below the deck or from the bottom of the gear pockets to the berth platform. The chain locker has no liner either. However, in the saloon, there is a void between the liner and the hull on the port side roughly four or so inches wide which extends from the bulkhead between the head and the saloon aft to the port cockpit locker. There is a void between the liner and the hull in the hanging locker as well.
               There is a product called Dry Bunk that Fisheries Supply (in Seattle) carries that helps with condensation under the mattress - and for everyone else, I think Defender carries it as well but I don't see it in the West Marine catalog. I bought some a few years ago and can say that it works as advertised. I keep my boat on a buoy and consequently do not have access to shore power. When I berthed in a marina I kept a small 1800W heater going pretty much all winter - naturally that drove up the electric bill significantly. Now I just use three small refillable containers of Dri-Z-Air (or an equivalent product, depending on price) and put one in the vee berth, one in the head and one in the galley and I also installed a solar-powered vent in the head. I also drilled some ventilation holes on the face of both the starboard settee and the aft dinette settee and  covered them with grills. I usually raise the back of the starboard settee as well to provide air circulation to the storage behind this area and I open the two lockers beneath the drawers in the vee berth and crack the doors on the hanging locker. Consequently, I never have problems with condensation or mold/mildew because keeping everything as open as possible provides enough air circulation. I refresh the Dri-Z-Air and dump the accumulated water in the containers every two weeks or so. Of course, having to adjust or close/open everything before and after a winter sail is a bit of a pain, but that's the price I pay for free moorage.  Hope this helps.
               
              JS
               
               
               
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 2:38 PM
              Subject: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness

               

              Hey all, 

              I'm having a hell of a time with condensation. I'm slowly finishing up the insulation, and working on ventilation. 

              Some where in the past I read that a Y30 owner received advice from S&S on prepping their boat for extended off-shore work. S&S recommended using expanding foam between the hull and liner in the forward cabin. Does anyone have details on this? What type of foam would one use? I'd like to spray the underside of the vee berth as well. 

              The liner is still really cold, and I'm getting a lot of condensation build up along side and under the mattress.   

              Any info on the matter (for insulation) is great, if anyone has the list of upgrades S&S recommended, I'd be very interested in seeing that.

              Justin


              Justin;

              I have no idea where you would install expanding foam "between the hull and liner" in the forward cabin (vee berth). I have a MK1 and there are no voids in that location. There is no liner beneath the berth and no substantial void between the gear pockets on either side of the berth just below the deck or from the bottom of the gear pockets to the berth platform. The chain locker has no liner either. However, in the saloon, there is a void between the liner and the hull on the port side roughly four or so inches wide which extends from the bulkhead between the head and the saloon aft to the port cockpit locker. There is a void between the liner and the hull in the hanging locker as well.
               There is a product called Dry Bunk that Fisheries Supply (in Seattle) carries that helps with condensation under the mattress - and for everyone else, I think Defender carries it as well but I don't see it in the West Marine catalog. I bought some a few years ago and can say that it works as advertised. I keep my boat on a buoy and consequently do not have access to shore power. When I berthed in a marina I kept a small 1800W heater going pretty much all winter - naturally that drove up the electric bill significantly. Now I just use three small refillable containers of Dri-Z-Air (or an equivalent product, depending on price) and put one in the vee berth, one in the head and one in the galley and I also installed a solar-powered vent in the head. I also drilled some ventilation holes on the face of both the starboard settee and the aft dinette settee and  covered them with grills. I usually raise the back of the starboard settee as well to provide air circulation to the storage behind this area and I open the two lockers beneath the drawers in the vee berth and crack the doors on the hanging locker. Consequently, I never have problems with condensation or mold/mildew because keeping everything as open as possible provides enough air circulation. I refresh the Dri-Z-Air and dump the accumulated water in the containers every two weeks or so. Of course, having to adjust or close/open everything before and after a winter sail is a bit of a pain, but that's the price I pay for free moorage.  Hope this helps.

              JS





               ----- Original Message -----
               From: Justin Craig
               To: yankee30@yahoogroups.com
               Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 2:38 PM
               Subject: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness



               Hey all,

               I'm having a hell of a time with condensation. I'm slowly finishing up the insulation, and working on ventilation.

               Some where in the past I read that a Y30 owner received advice from S&S on prepping their boat for extended off-shore work. S&S recommended using expanding foam between the hull and liner in the forward cabin. Does anyone have details on this? What type of foam would one use? I'd like to spray the underside of the vee berth as well.

               The liner is still really cold, and I'm getting a lot of condensation build up along side and under the mattress.

               Any info on the matter (for insulation) is great, if anyone has the list of upgrades S&S recommended, I'd be very interested in seeing that.

               Justin

               

            • Melissa Bearns
              Justin, thanks for sharing this info. It s of great interest to me as well!
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 8, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                Justin, thanks for sharing this info. It's of great interest to me as well!


                On Dec 8, 2011, at 12:09 PM, Justin Craig wrote:

                 

                Here is what I've found, A local yard says they would drill holes along the up end of the liner, and pour expanding foam in from the top. The bottom would need to be sealed off to keep the foam from spilling out.

                I spoke with a expanding foam guy at US Chemicals, he said don't use pour in. The travel is too short and it kicks too fast. He said to contact Hilti, they make injectable foam. like the ones below. One requires a hilti gun to inject the foam. the other is like what we'd buy at Home Depot. Hilti said the temp rating is the only difference. As long as it's above 41 degrees I can use the one that does not need the gun. It's not cheap at $22 a can but I'm going to give it a try.

                http://www.us.hilti.com/holus/page/module/product/prca_rangedetail.jsf?lang=en&nodeId=-68694#related_products
                http://www.us.hilti.com/holus/page/module/product/prca_rangedetail.jsf?lang=en&nodeId=-68687

                I'll report back.

                Justin

                On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 10:05 PM, endeavor64@... <endeavor64@...> wrote:
                Thanks for the reply,

                In my mkiii, there are no lockets or cubbies in the fwd cabin. If you tap on the liner you can tell its "hallow" behind it. Crawling into the locker under the matteress, I can fit my hand into the gap between the hull and liner. I read somewhere that this area can be filled with foam to increase fwd stiffness of the hull, a +. A by product would be the indulation factor. There is no liner under my mattress. In my last boat I used cedar lattice under the mattress to increase airflow, cheap, smells good and easy to find. I'll be adding lattice this week, but even still, the hull liner is cold and damp so I feel like something needs to be addressed there too. Btw, I am living aboard in seattle, electric heat runs when i'm here, a dehumidifier all the time.
                Sent from my LG phone



                js <4sje5@...> wrote:


                 

                Justin;
                 
                I have no idea where you would install expanding foam "between the hull and liner" in the forward cabin (vee berth). I have a MK1 and there are no voids in that location. There is no liner beneath the berth and no substantial void between the gear pockets on either side of the berth just below the deck or from the bottom of the gear pockets to the berth platform. The chain locker has no liner either. However, in the saloon, there is a void between the liner and the hull on the port side roughly four or so inches wide which extends from the bulkhead between the head and the saloon aft to the port cockpit locker. There is a void between the liner and the hull in the hanging locker as well.
                 There is a product called Dry Bunk that Fisheries Supply (in Seattle) carries that helps with condensation under the mattress - and for everyone else, I think Defender carries it as well but I don't see it in the West Marine catalog. I bought some a few years ago and can say that it works as advertised. I keep my boat on a buoy and consequently do not have access to shore power. When I berthed in a marina I kept a small 1800W heater going pretty much all winter - naturally that drove up the electric bill significantly. Now I just use three small refillable containers of Dri-Z-Air (or an equivalent product, depending on price) and put one in the vee berth, one in the head and one in the galley and I also installed a solar-powered vent in the head. I also drilled some ventilation holes on the face of both the starboard settee and the aft dinette settee and  covered them with grills. I usually raise the back of the starboard settee as well to provide air circulation to the storage behind this area and I open the two lockers beneath the drawers in the vee berth and crack the doors on the hanging locker. Consequently, I never have problems with condensation or mold/mildew because keeping everything as open as possible provides enough air circulation. I refresh the Dri-Z-Air and dump the accumulated water in the containers every two weeks or so. Of course, having to adjust or close/open everything before and after a winter sail is a bit of a pain, but that's the price I pay for free moorage.  Hope this helps.
                 
                JS
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 2:38 PM
                Subject: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness

                 

                Hey all, 

                I'm having a hell of a time with condensation. I'm slowly finishing up the insulation, and working on ventilation. 

                Some where in the past I read that a Y30 owner received advice from S&S on prepping their boat for extended off-shore work. S&S recommended using expanding foam between the hull and liner in the forward cabin. Does anyone have details on this? What type of foam would one use? I'd like to spray the underside of the vee berth as well. 

                The liner is still really cold, and I'm getting a lot of condensation build up along side and under the mattress.   

                Any info on the matter (for insulation) is great, if anyone has the list of upgrades S&S recommended, I'd be very interested in seeing that.

                Justin



                Justin;

                I have no idea where you would install expanding foam "between the hull and liner" in the forward cabin (vee berth). I have a MK1 and there are no voids in that location. There is no liner beneath the berth and no substantial void between the gear pockets on either side of the berth just below the deck or from the bottom of the gear pockets to the berth platform. The chain locker has no liner either. However, in the saloon, there is a void between the liner and the hull on the port side roughly four or so inches wide which extends from the bulkhead between the head and the saloon aft to the port cockpit locker. There is a void between the liner and the hull in the hanging locker as well.
                 There is a product called Dry Bunk that Fisheries Supply (in Seattle) carries that helps with condensation under the mattress - and for everyone else, I think Defender carries it as well but I don't see it in the West Marine catalog. I bought some a few years ago and can say that it works as advertised. I keep my boat on a buoy and consequently do not have access to shore power. When I berthed in a marina I kept a small 1800W heater going pretty much all winter - naturally that drove up the electric bill significantly. Now I just use three small refillable containers of Dri-Z-Air (or an equivalent product, depending on price) and put one in the vee berth, one in the head and one in the galley and I also installed a solar-powered vent in the head. I also drilled some ventilation holes on the face of both the starboard settee and the aft dinette settee and  covered them with grills. I usually raise the back of the starboard settee as well to provide air circulation to the storage behind this area and I open the two lockers beneath the drawers in the vee berth and crack the doors on the hanging locker. Consequently, I never have problems with condensation or mold/mildew because keeping everything as open as possible provides enough air circulation. I refresh the Dri-Z-Air and dump the accumulated water in the containers every two weeks or so. Of course, having to adjust or close/open everything before and after a winter sail is a bit of a pain, but that's the price I pay for free moorage.  Hope this helps.

                JS





                 ----- Original Message -----
                 From: Justin Craig
                 To: yankee30@yahoogroups.com
                 Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 2:38 PM
                 Subject: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness



                 Hey all,

                 I'm having a hell of a time with condensation. I'm slowly finishing up the insulation, and working on ventilation.

                 Some where in the past I read that a Y30 owner received advice from S&S on prepping their boat for extended off-shore work. S&S recommended using expanding foam between the hull and liner in the forward cabin. Does anyone have details on this? What type of foam would one use? I'd like to spray the underside of the vee berth as well.

                 The liner is still really cold, and I'm getting a lot of condensation build up along side and under the mattress.

                 Any info on the matter (for insulation) is great, if anyone has the list of upgrades S&S recommended, I'd be very interested in seeing that.

                 Justin

                 



              • Carson Baker
                If you could take some photos of the process, that would be really cool. At the very least, let us know how it goes. My Yankee has a hull pan extending all the
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 8, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  If you could take some photos of the process, that would be really cool. At the very least, let us know how it goes. My Yankee has a hull pan extending all the way back to the cockpit, and I'm considering doing the same.

                  You may have seen this link:

                  http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f74/has-anyone-considered-spray-foam-50601.html

                  Seems like the issues at stake are:

                  1. the force of the expanding foam (in that it might break your hull pan)
                  2. moisture getting trapped
                  3. flammability 

                  Looks like Hilti offers CF 116 "Filler Foam", the CF 812 "Low Pressure" foam, or the CF 512 "Cold Weather" foam. I'm not sure how to compare those.

                  The benefits seem like it's totally worth doing. Less noise. More insulation. Stiffer hull. I say go for it. If I were wintering in Seattle, I'd totally give it a try.

                  As for condensation, I've had good luck with the Golden Rod dehumidifiers that they sell at West Marine. The previous owner left several of them onboard. They make a difference. I'm also spraying vinegar everywhere and experimenting with Kanberra gel to see if it helps with mold growth. (Kanberra gel totally sounds like snakeoil, but what the hell -- I can't find any negative reviews and even if they're conmen, they've advertised it so well that they can take my money.)

                  Also -- Justin -- when I met up with you last month I remember seeing some propane onboard. If you're using those cans to heat your boat, that could be a big source of your condensation problems. Burning propane really puts out a lot of warm, moist air. When the weather outside gets cold, that's the exact formula for condensation.

                  Since you're at the dock, I imagine you're using electric heat, and you would have correlated propane use with condensation, but I thought I'd throw that out there just in case.

                  Good luck with the insulation!

                      Carson

                  On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 3:45 PM, Melissa Bearns <melissa@...> wrote:
                   

                  Justin, thanks for sharing this info. It's of great interest to me as well!



                  On Dec 8, 2011, at 12:09 PM, Justin Craig wrote:

                   

                  Here is what I've found, A local yard says they would drill holes along the up end of the liner, and pour expanding foam in from the top. The bottom would need to be sealed off to keep the foam from spilling out.

                  I spoke with a expanding foam guy at US Chemicals, he said don't use pour in. The travel is too short and it kicks too fast. He said to contact Hilti, they make injectable foam. like the ones below. One requires a hilti gun to inject the foam. the other is like what we'd buy at Home Depot. Hilti said the temp rating is the only difference. As long as it's above 41 degrees I can use the one that does not need the gun. It's not cheap at $22 a can but I'm going to give it a try.

                  http://www.us.hilti.com/holus/page/module/product/prca_rangedetail.jsf?lang=en&nodeId=-68694#related_products
                  http://www.us.hilti.com/holus/page/module/product/prca_rangedetail.jsf?lang=en&nodeId=-68687

                  I'll report back.

                  Justin

                  On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 10:05 PM, endeavor64@... <endeavor64@...> wrote:
                  Thanks for the reply,

                  In my mkiii, there are no lockets or cubbies in the fwd cabin. If you tap on the liner you can tell its "hallow" behind it. Crawling into the locker under the matteress, I can fit my hand into the gap between the hull and liner. I read somewhere that this area can be filled with foam to increase fwd stiffness of the hull, a +. A by product would be the indulation factor. There is no liner under my mattress. In my last boat I used cedar lattice under the mattress to increase airflow, cheap, smells good and easy to find. I'll be adding lattice this week, but even still, the hull liner is cold and damp so I feel like something needs to be addressed there too. Btw, I am living aboard in seattle, electric heat runs when i'm here, a dehumidifier all the time.
                  Sent from my LG phone



                  js <4sje5@...> wrote:


                   

                  Justin;
                   
                  I have no idea where you would install expanding foam "between the hull and liner" in the forward cabin (vee berth). I have a MK1 and there are no voids in that location. There is no liner beneath the berth and no substantial void between the gear pockets on either side of the berth just below the deck or from the bottom of the gear pockets to the berth platform. The chain locker has no liner either. However, in the saloon, there is a void between the liner and the hull on the port side roughly four or so inches wide which extends from the bulkhead between the head and the saloon aft to the port cockpit locker. There is a void between the liner and the hull in the hanging locker as well.
                   There is a product called Dry Bunk that Fisheries Supply (in Seattle) carries that helps with condensation under the mattress - and for everyone else, I think Defender carries it as well but I don't see it in the West Marine catalog. I bought some a few years ago and can say that it works as advertised. I keep my boat on a buoy and consequently do not have access to shore power. When I berthed in a marina I kept a small 1800W heater going pretty much all winter - naturally that drove up the electric bill significantly. Now I just use three small refillable containers of Dri-Z-Air (or an equivalent product, depending on price) and put one in the vee berth, one in the head and one in the galley and I also installed a solar-powered vent in the head. I also drilled some ventilation holes on the face of both the starboard settee and the aft dinette settee and  covered them with grills. I usually raise the back of the starboard settee as well to provide air circulation to the storage behind this area and I open the two lockers beneath the drawers in the vee berth and crack the doors on the hanging locker. Consequently, I never have problems with condensation or mold/mildew because keeping everything as open as possible provides enough air circulation. I refresh the Dri-Z-Air and dump the accumulated water in the containers every two weeks or so. Of course, having to adjust or close/open everything before and after a winter sail is a bit of a pain, but that's the price I pay for free moorage.  Hope this helps.
                   
                  JS
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 2:38 PM
                  Subject: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness

                   

                  Hey all, 

                  I'm having a hell of a time with condensation. I'm slowly finishing up the insulation, and working on ventilation. 

                  Some where in the past I read that a Y30 owner received advice from S&S on prepping their boat for extended off-shore work. S&S recommended using expanding foam between the hull and liner in the forward cabin. Does anyone have details on this? What type of foam would one use? I'd like to spray the underside of the vee berth as well. 

                  The liner is still really cold, and I'm getting a lot of condensation build up along side and under the mattress.   

                  Any info on the matter (for insulation) is great, if anyone has the list of upgrades S&S recommended, I'd be very interested in seeing that.

                  Justin



                  Justin;

                  I have no idea where you would install expanding foam "between the hull and liner" in the forward cabin (vee berth). I have a MK1 and there are no voids in that location. There is no liner beneath the berth and no substantial void between the gear pockets on either side of the berth just below the deck or from the bottom of the gear pockets to the berth platform. The chain locker has no liner either. However, in the saloon, there is a void between the liner and the hull on the port side roughly four or so inches wide which extends from the bulkhead between the head and the saloon aft to the port cockpit locker. There is a void between the liner and the hull in the hanging locker as well.
                   There is a product called Dry Bunk that Fisheries Supply (in Seattle) carries that helps with condensation under the mattress - and for everyone else, I think Defender carries it as well but I don't see it in the West Marine catalog. I bought some a few years ago and can say that it works as advertised. I keep my boat on a buoy and consequently do not have access to shore power. When I berthed in a marina I kept a small 1800W heater going pretty much all winter - naturally that drove up the electric bill significantly. Now I just use three small refillable containers of Dri-Z-Air (or an equivalent product, depending on price) and put one in the vee berth, one in the head and one in the galley and I also installed a solar-powered vent in the head. I also drilled some ventilation holes on the face of both the starboard settee and the aft dinette settee and  covered them with grills. I usually raise the back of the starboard settee as well to provide air circulation t o the storage behind this area and I open the two lockers beneath the drawers in the vee berth and crack the doors on the hanging locker. Consequently, I never have problems with condensation or mold/mildew because keeping everything as open as possible provides enough air circulation. I refresh the Dri-Z-Air and dump the accumulated water in the containers every two weeks or so. Of course, having to adjust or close/open everything before and after a winter sail is a bit of a pain, but that's the price I pay for free moorage.  Hope this helps.


                  JS





                   ----- Original Message -----
                   From: Justin Craig
                   To: yankee30@yahoogroups.com
                   Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 2:38 PM
                   Subject: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness



                   Hey all,

                   I'm having a hell of a time with condensation. I'm slowly finishing up the insulation, and working on ventilation.

                   Some where in the past I read that a Y30 owner received advice from S&S on prepping their boat for extended off-shore work. S&S recommended using expanding foam between the hull and liner in the forward cabin. Does anyone have details on this? What type of foam would one use? I'd like to spray the underside of the vee berth as well.

                   The liner is still really cold, and I'm getting a lot of condensation build up along side and under the mattress.

                   Any info on the matter (for insulation) is great, if anyone has the list of upgrades S&S recommended, I'd be very interested in seeing that.

                   Justin

                   




                • Justin Craig
                  Carson, Thanks for the link. If S&S recommended the foam in this area in the past I feel pretty good about it. As you recall I ve done extensive insulating,
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 8, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Carson,
                    Thanks for the link. If S&S recommended the foam in this area in the past I feel pretty good about it. As you recall I've done extensive insulating, but this area is the weak point.

                    I'll be sure to take pics along the way. I really need to update the restoration blog.
                    As for propane, I'm not using any, I opted for Kerosene for both the stove & heater. At the dock I use electric, and a dehumidifier runs 24/7.

                    Justin


                    On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 2:15 PM, Carson Baker <carson@...> wrote:
                     

                    If you could take some photos of the process, that would be really cool. At the very least, let us know how it goes. My Yankee has a hull pan extending all the way back to the cockpit, and I'm considering doing the same.


                    You may have seen this link:

                    http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f74/has-anyone-considered-spray-foam-50601.html

                    Seems like the issues at stake are:

                    1. the force of the expanding foam (in that it might break your hull pan)
                    2. moisture getting trapped
                    3. flammability 

                    Looks like Hilti offers CF 116 "Filler Foam", the CF 812 "Low Pressure" foam, or the CF 512 "Cold Weather" foam. I'm not sure how to compare those.

                    The benefits seem like it's totally worth doing. Less noise. More insulation. Stiffer hull. I say go for it. If I were wintering in Seattle, I'd totally give it a try.

                    As for condensation, I've had good luck with the Golden Rod dehumidifiers that they sell at West Marine. The previous owner left several of them onboard. They make a difference. I'm also spraying vinegar everywhere and experimenting with Kanberra gel to see if it helps with mold growth. (Kanberra gel totally sounds like snakeoil, but what the hell -- I can't find any negative reviews and even if they're conmen, they've advertised it so well that they can take my money.)

                    Also -- Justin -- when I met up with you last month I remember seeing some propane onboard. If you're using those cans to heat your boat, that could be a big source of your condensation problems. Burning propane really puts out a lot of warm, moist air. When the weather outside gets cold, that's the exact formula for condensation.

                    Since you're at the dock, I imagine you're using electric heat, and you would have correlated propane use with condensation, but I thought I'd throw that out there just in case.

                    Good luck with the insulation!

                        Carson

                    On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 3:45 PM, Melissa Bearns <melissa@...> wrote:
                     

                    Justin, thanks for sharing this info. It's of great interest to me as well!



                    On Dec 8, 2011, at 12:09 PM, Justin Craig wrote:

                     

                    Here is what I've found, A local yard says they would drill holes along the up end of the liner, and pour expanding foam in from the top. The bottom would need to be sealed off to keep the foam from spilling out.

                    I spoke with a expanding foam guy at US Chemicals, he said don't use pour in. The travel is too short and it kicks too fast. He said to contact Hilti, they make injectable foam. like the ones below. One requires a hilti gun to inject the foam. the other is like what we'd buy at Home Depot. Hilti said the temp rating is the only difference. As long as it's above 41 degrees I can use the one that does not need the gun. It's not cheap at $22 a can but I'm going to give it a try.

                    http://www.us.hilti.com/holus/page/module/product/prca_rangedetail.jsf?lang=en&nodeId=-68694#related_products
                    http://www.us.hilti.com/holus/page/module/product/prca_rangedetail.jsf?lang=en&nodeId=-68687

                    I'll report back.

                    Justin

                    On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 10:05 PM, endeavor64@... <endeavor64@...> wrote:
                    Thanks for the reply,

                    In my mkiii, there are no lockets or cubbies in the fwd cabin. If you tap on the liner you can tell its "hallow" behind it. Crawling into the locker under the matteress, I can fit my hand into the gap between the hull and liner. I read somewhere that this area can be filled with foam to increase fwd stiffness of the hull, a +. A by product would be the indulation factor. There is no liner under my mattress. In my last boat I used cedar lattice under the mattress to increase airflow, cheap, smells good and easy to find. I'll be adding lattice this week, but even still, the hull liner is cold and damp so I feel like something needs to be addressed there too. Btw, I am living aboard in seattle, electric heat runs when i'm here, a dehumidifier all the time.
                    Sent from my LG phone



                    js <4sje5@...> wrote:


                     

                    Justin;
                     
                    I have no idea where you would install expanding foam "between the hull and liner" in the forward cabin (vee berth). I have a MK1 and there are no voids in that location. There is no liner beneath the berth and no substantial void between the gear pockets on either side of the berth just below the deck or from the bottom of the gear pockets to the berth platform. The chain locker has no liner either. However, in the saloon, there is a void between the liner and the hull on the port side roughly four or so inches wide which extends from the bulkhead between the head and the saloon aft to the port cockpit locker. There is a void between the liner and the hull in the hanging locker as well.
                     There is a product called Dry Bunk that Fisheries Supply (in Seattle) carries that helps with condensation under the mattress - and for everyone else, I think Defender carries it as well but I don't see it in the West Marine catalog. I bought some a few years ago and can say that it works as advertised. I keep my boat on a buoy and consequently do not have access to shore power. When I berthed in a marina I kept a small 1800W heater going pretty much all winter - naturally that drove up the electric bill significantly. Now I just use three small refillable containers of Dri-Z-Air (or an equivalent product, depending on price) and put one in the vee berth, one in the head and one in the galley and I also installed a solar-powered vent in the head. I also drilled some ventilation holes on the face of both the starboard settee and the aft dinette settee and  covered them with grills. I usually raise the back of the starboard settee as well to provide air circulation to the storage behind this area and I open the two lockers beneath the drawers in the vee berth and crack the doors on the hanging locker. Consequently, I never have problems with condensation or mold/mildew because keeping everything as open as possible provides enough air circulation. I refresh the Dri-Z-Air and dump the accumulated water in the containers every two weeks or so. Of course, having to adjust or close/open everything before and after a winter sail is a bit of a pain, but that's the price I pay for free moorage.  Hope this helps.
                     
                    JS
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 2:38 PM
                    Subject: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness

                     

                    Hey all, 

                    I'm having a hell of a time with condensation. I'm slowly finishing up the insulation, and working on ventilation. 

                    Some where in the past I read that a Y30 owner received advice from S&S on prepping their boat for extended off-shore work. S&S recommended using expanding foam between the hull and liner in the forward cabin. Does anyone have details on this? What type of foam would one use? I'd like to spray the underside of the vee berth as well. 

                    The liner is still really cold, and I'm getting a lot of condensation build up along side and under the mattress.   

                    Any info on the matter (for insulation) is great, if anyone has the list of upgrades S&S recommended, I'd be very interested in seeing that.

                    Justin



                    Justin;

                    I have no idea where you would install expanding foam "between the hull and liner" in the forward cabin (vee berth). I have a MK1 and there are no voids in that location. There is no liner beneath the berth and no substantial void between the gear pockets on either side of the berth just below the deck or from the bottom of the gear pockets to the berth platform. The chain locker has no liner either. However, in the saloon, there is a void between the liner and the hull on the port side roughly four or so inches wide which extends from the bulkhead between the head and the saloon aft to the port cockpit locker. There is a void between the liner and the hull in the hanging locker as well.
                     There is a product called Dry Bunk that Fisheries Supply (in Seattle) carries that helps with condensation under the mattress - and for everyone else, I think Defender carries it as well but I don't see it in the West Marine catalog. I bought some a few years ago and can say that it works as advertised. I keep my boat on a buoy and consequently do not have access to shore power. When I berthed in a marina I kept a small 1800W heater going pretty much all winter - naturally that drove up the electric bill significantly. Now I just use three small refillable containers of Dri-Z-Air (or an equivalent product, depending on price) and put one in the vee berth, one in the head and one in the galley and I also installed a solar-powered vent in the head. I also drilled some ventilation holes on the face of both the starboard settee and the aft dinette settee and  covered them with grills. I usually raise the back of the starboard settee as well to provide air circulation t o the storage behind this area and I open the two lockers beneath the drawers in the vee berth and crack the doors on the hanging locker. Consequently, I never have problems with condensation or mold/mildew because keeping everything as open as possible provides enough air circulation. I refresh the Dri-Z-Air and dump the accumulated water in the containers every two weeks or so. Of course, having to adjust or close/open everything before and after a winter sail is a bit of a pain, but that's the price I pay for free moorage.  Hope this helps.


                    JS





                     ----- Original Message -----
                     From: Justin Craig
                     To: yankee30@yahoogroups.com
                     Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 2:38 PM
                     Subject: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness



                     Hey all,

                     I'm having a hell of a time with condensation. I'm slowly finishing up the insulation, and working on ventilation.

                     Some where in the past I read that a Y30 owner received advice from S&S on prepping their boat for extended off-shore work. S&S recommended using expanding foam between the hull and liner in the forward cabin. Does anyone have details on this? What type of foam would one use? I'd like to spray the underside of the vee berth as well.

                     The liner is still really cold, and I'm getting a lot of condensation build up along side and under the mattress.

                     Any info on the matter (for insulation) is great, if anyone has the list of upgrades S&S recommended, I'd be very interested in seeing that.

                     Justin

                     





                  • jokeed@aol.com
                    Please include me in the photos and success or failure of this project. Enterprise is always at her slip at night and when not sailing, but doesn t get much
                    Message 9 of 15 , Dec 9, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Please include me in the photos and success or failure of this project.  Enterprise is always at her slip at night and when not sailing, but doesn't get much winter use....so condensation...but I do keep two 75 watt shop lights burning all winter...and a heater when really cold.


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Justin Craig <endeavor64@...>
                      To: yankee30 <yankee30@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thu, Dec 8, 2011 4:32 pm
                      Subject: Re: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness

                       
                      Carson,
                      Thanks for the link. If S&S recommended the foam in this area in the past I feel pretty good about it. As you recall I've done extensive insulating, but this area is the weak point.

                      I'll be sure to take pics along the way. I really need to update the restoration blog.
                      As for propane, I'm not using any, I opted for Kerosene for both the stove & heater. At the dock I use electric, and a dehumidifier runs 24/7.

                      Justin


                      On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 2:15 PM, Carson Baker <carson@...> wrote:
                       
                      If you could take some photos of the process, that would be really cool. At the very least, let us know how it goes. My Yankee has a hull pan extending all the way back to the cockpit, and I'm considering doing the same.

                      You may have seen this link:

                      http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f74/has-anyone-considered-spray-foam-50601.html

                      Seems like the issues at stake are:

                      1. the force of the expanding foam (in that it might break your hull pan)
                      2. moisture getting trapped
                      3. flammability 

                      Looks like Hilti offers CF 116 "Filler Foam", the CF 812 "Low Pressure" foam, or the CF 512 "Cold Weather" foam. I'm not sure how to compare those.

                      The benefits seem like it's totally worth doing. Less noise. More insulation. Stiffer hull. I say go for it. If I were wintering in Seattle, I'd totally give it a try.

                      As for condensation, I've had good luck with the Golden Rod dehumidifiers that they sell at West Marine. The previous owner left several of them onboard. They make a difference. I'm also spraying vinegar everywhere and experimenting with Kanberra gel to see if it helps with mold growth. (Kanberra gel totally sounds like snakeoil, but what the hell -- I can't find any negative reviews and even if they're conmen, they've advertised it so well that they can take my money.)

                      Also -- Justin -- when I met up with you last month I remember seeing some propane onboard. If you're using those cans to heat your boat, that could be a big source of your condensation problems. Burning propane really puts out a lot of warm, moist air. When the weather outside gets cold, that's the exact formula for condensation.

                      Since you're at the dock, I imagine you're using electric heat, and you would have correlated propane use with condensation, but I thought I'd throw that out there just in case.

                      Good luck with the insulation!

                          Carson

                      On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 3:45 PM, Melissa Bearns <melissa@...> wrote:
                       
                      Justin, thanks for sharing this info. It's of great interest to me as well!


                      On Dec 8, 2011, at 12:09 PM, Justin Craig wrote:

                       
                      Here is what I've found, A local yard says they would drill holes along the up end of the liner, and pour expanding foam in from the top. The bottom would need to be sealed off to keep the foam from spilling out.

                      I spoke with a expanding foam guy at US Chemicals, he said don't use pour in. The travel is too short and it kicks too fast. He said to contact Hilti, they make injectable foam. like the ones below. One requires a hilti gun to inject the foam. the other is like what we'd buy at Home Depot. Hilti said the temp rating is the only difference. As long as it's above 41 degrees I can use the one that does not need the gun. It's not cheap at $22 a can but I'm going to give it a try.

                      http://www.us.hilti.com/holus/page/module/product/prca_rangedetail.jsf?lang=en&nodeId=-68694#related_products
                      http://www.us.hilti.com/holus/page/module/product/prca_rangedetail.jsf?lang=en&nodeId=-68687

                      I'll report back.

                      Justin

                      On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 10:05 PM, endeavor64@... <endeavor64@...> wrote:
                      Thanks for the reply,

                      In my mkiii, there are no lockets or cubbies in the fwd cabin. If you tap on the liner you can tell its "hallow" behind it. Crawling into the locker under the matteress, I can fit my hand into the gap between the hull and liner. I read somewhere that this area can be filled with foam to increase fwd stiffness of the hull, a +. A by product would be the indulation factor. There is no liner under my mattress. In my last boat I used cedar lattice under the mattress to increase airflow, cheap, smells good and easy to find. I'll be adding lattice this week, but even still, the hull liner is cold and damp so I feel like something needs to be addressed there too. Btw, I am living aboard in seattle, electric heat runs when i'm here, a dehumidifier all the time.
                      Sent from my LG phone



                      js <4sje5@...> wrote:


                       
                      Justin;
                       
                      I have no idea where you would install expanding foam "between the hull and liner" in the forward cabin (vee berth). I have a MK1 and there are no voids in that location. There is no liner beneath the berth and no substantial void between the gear pockets on either side of the berth just below the deck or from the bottom of the gear pockets to the berth platform. The chain locker has no liner either. However, in the saloon, there is a void between the liner and the hull on the port side roughly four or so inches wide which extends from the bulkhead between the head and the saloon aft to the port cockpit locker. There is a void between the liner and the hull in the hanging locker as well.
                       There is a product called Dry Bunk that Fisheries Supply (in Seattle) carries that helps with condensation under the mattress - and for everyone else, I think Defender carries it as well but I don't see it in the West Marine catalog. I bought some a few years ago and can say that it works as advertised. I keep my boat on a buoy and consequently do not have access to shore power. When I berthed in a marina I kept a small 1800W heater going pretty much all winter - naturally that drove up the electric bill significantly. Now I just use three small refillable containers of Dri-Z-Air (or an equivalent product, depending on price) and put one in the vee berth, one in the head and one in the galley and I also installed a solar-powered vent in the head. I also drilled some ventilation holes on the face of both the starboard settee and the aft dinette settee and  covered them with grills. I usually raise the back of the starboard settee as well to provide air circulation to the storage behind this area and I open the two lockers beneath the drawers in the vee berth and crack the doors on the hanging locker. Consequently, I never have problems with condensation or mold/mildew because keeping everything as open as possible provides enough air circulation. I refresh the Dri-Z-Air and dump the accumulated water in the containers every two weeks or so. Of course, having to adjust or close/open everything before and after a winter sail is a bit of a pain, but that's the price I pay for free moorage.  Hope this helps.
                       
                      JS
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 2:38 PM
                      Subject: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness

                       
                      Hey all, 

                      I'm having a hell of a time with condensation. I'm slowly finishing up the insulation, and working on ventilation. 

                      Some where in the past I read that a Y30 owner received advice from S&S on prepping their boat for extended off-shore work. S&S recommended using expanding foam between the hull and liner in the forward cabin. Does anyone have details on this? What type of foam would one use? I'd like to spray the underside of the vee berth as well. 

                      The liner is still really cold, and I'm getting a lot of condensation build up along side and under the mattress.   

                      Any info on the matter (for insulation) is great, if anyone has the list of upgrades S&S recommended, I'd be very interested in seeing that.

                      Justin


                      Justin;

                      I have no idea where you would install expanding foam "between the hull and liner" in the forward cabin (vee berth). I have a MK1 and there are no voids in that location. There is no liner beneath the berth and no substantial void between the gear pockets on either side of the berth just below the deck or from the bottom of the gear pockets to the berth platform. The chain locker has no liner either. However, in the saloon, there is a void between the liner and the hull on the port side roughly four or so inches wide which extends from the bulkhead between the head and the saloon aft to the port cockpit locker. There is a void between the liner and the hull in the hanging locker as well.
                       There is a product called Dry Bunk that Fisheries Supply (in Seattle) carries that helps with condensation under the mattress - and for everyone else, I think Defender carries it as well but I don't see it in the West Marine catalog. I bought some a few years ago and can say that it works as advertised. I keep my boat on a buoy and consequently do not have access to shore power. When I berthed in a marina I kept a small 1800W heater going pretty much all winter - naturally that drove up the electric bill significantly. Now I just use three small refillable containers of Dri-Z-Air (or an equivalent product, depending on price) and put one in the vee berth, one in the head and one in the galley and I also installed a solar-powered vent in the head. I also drilled some ventilation holes on the face of both the starboard settee and the aft dinette settee and  covered them with grills. I usually raise the back of the starboard settee as well to provide air circulation t o the storage behind this area and I open the two lockers beneath the drawers in the vee berth and crack the doors on the hanging locker. Consequently, I never have problems with condensation or mold/mildew because keeping everything as open as possible provides enough air circulation. I refresh the Dri-Z-Air and dump the accumulated water in the containers every two weeks or so. Of course, having to adjust or close/open everything before and after a winter sail is a bit of a pain, but that's the price I pay for free moorage.  Hope this helps.


                      JS





                       ----- Original Message -----
                       From: Justin Craig
                       To: yankee30@yahoogroups.com
                       Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 2:38 PM
                       Subject: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness



                       Hey all,

                       I'm having a hell of a time with condensation. I'm slowly finishing up the insulation, and working on ventilation.

                       Some where in the past I read that a Y30 owner received advice from S&S on prepping their boat for extended off-shore work. S&S recommended using expanding foam between the hull and liner in the forward cabin. Does anyone have details on this? What type of foam would one use? I'd like to spray the underside of the vee berth as well.

                       The liner is still really cold, and I'm getting a lot of condensation build up along side and under the mattress.

                       Any info on the matter (for insulation) is great, if anyone has the list of upgrades S&S recommended, I'd be very interested in seeing that.

                       Justin

                       





                    • Keehn, Dane
                      Justin, Keep all of us updated on your progress. I too am most curious on how this works. I had given up long ago on the idea of taking care of condensation.
                      Message 10 of 15 , Dec 9, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment

                        Justin,

                        Keep all of us updated on your progress.  I too am most curious on how this works.  I had given up long ago on the idea of taking care of condensation.  I still use dehumidifiers, light bulbs, etc in the winter, but I still have plenty of condensation around and always have to deal with cleaning the mildew come spring.

                        dane

                         

                        From: yankee30@yahoogroups.com [mailto:yankee30@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jokeed@...
                        Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 3:09 AM
                        To: yankee30@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness

                         

                         

                        Please include me in the photos and success or failure of this project.  Enterprise is always at her slip at night and when not sailing, but doesn't get much winter use....so condensation...but I do keep two 75 watt shop lights burning all winter...and a heater when really cold.

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Justin Craig <endeavor64@...>
                        To: yankee30 <yankee30@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thu, Dec 8, 2011 4:32 pm
                        Subject: Re: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness

                         

                        Carson,
                        Thanks for the link. If S&S recommended the foam in this area in the past I feel pretty good about it. As you recall I've done extensive insulating, but this area is the weak point.

                        I'll be sure to take pics along the way. I really need to update the restoration blog.
                        As for propane, I'm not using any, I opted for Kerosene for both the stove & heater. At the dock I use electric, and a dehumidifier runs 24/7.

                        Justin

                        On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 2:15 PM, Carson Baker <carson@...> wrote:

                         

                        If you could take some photos of the process, that would be really cool. At the very least, let us know how it goes. My Yankee has a hull pan extending all the way back to the cockpit, and I'm considering doing the same.

                         

                        You may have seen this link:

                         

                        http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f74/has-anyone-considered-spray-foam-50601.html

                         

                        Seems like the issues at stake are:

                         

                        1. the force of the expanding foam (in that it might break your hull pan)

                        2. moisture getting trapped

                        3. flammability 

                         

                        Looks like Hilti offers CF 116 "Filler Foam", the CF 812 "Low Pressure" foam, or the CF 512 "Cold Weather" foam. I'm not sure how to compare those.

                         

                        The benefits seem like it's totally worth doing. Less noise. More insulation. Stiffer hull. I say go for it. If I were wintering in Seattle, I'd totally give it a try.

                         

                        As for condensation, I've had good luck with the Golden Rod dehumidifiers that they sell at West Marine. The previous owner left several of them onboard. They make a difference. I'm also spraying vinegar everywhere and experimenting with Kanberra gel to see if it helps with mold growth. (Kanberra gel totally sounds like snakeoil, but what the hell -- I can't find any negative reviews and even if they're conmen, they've advertised it so well that they can take my money.)

                         

                        Also -- Justin -- when I met up with you last month I remember seeing some propane onboard. If you're using those cans to heat your boat, that could be a big source of your condensation problems. Burning propane really puts out a lot of warm, moist air. When the weather outside gets cold, that's the exact formula for condensation.

                         

                        Since you're at the dock, I imagine you're using electric heat, and you would have correlated propane use with condensation, but I thought I'd throw that out there just in case.

                         

                        Good luck with the insulation!

                         

                            Carson

                        On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 3:45 PM, Melissa Bearns <melissa@...> wrote:

                         

                        Justin, thanks for sharing this info. It's of great interest to me as well!

                         

                         

                        On Dec 8, 2011, at 12:09 PM, Justin Craig wrote:

                         

                         

                        Here is what I've found, A local yard says they would drill holes along the up end of the liner, and pour expanding foam in from the top. The bottom would need to be sealed off to keep the foam from spilling out.

                        I spoke with a expanding foam guy at US Chemicals, he said don't use pour in. The travel is too short and it kicks too fast. He said to contact Hilti, they make injectable foam. like the ones below. One requires a hilti gun to inject the foam. the other is like what we'd buy at Home Depot. Hilti said the temp rating is the only difference. As long as it's above 41 degrees I can use the one that does not need the gun. It's not cheap at $22 a can but I'm going to give it a try.

                        http://www.us.hilti.com/holus/page/module/product/prca_rangedetail.jsf?lang=en&nodeId=-68694#related_products
                        http://www.us.hilti.com/holus/page/module/product/prca_rangedetail.jsf?lang=en&nodeId=-68687

                        I'll report back.

                        Justin

                        On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 10:05 PM, endeavor64@... <endeavor64@...> wrote:

                        Thanks for the reply,

                        In my mkiii, there are no lockets or cubbies in the fwd cabin. If you tap on the liner you can tell its "hallow" behind it. Crawling into the locker under the matteress, I can fit my hand into the gap between the hull and liner. I read somewhere that this area can be filled with foam to increase fwd stiffness of the hull, a +. A by product would be the indulation factor. There is no liner under my mattress. In my last boat I used cedar lattice under the mattress to increase airflow, cheap, smells good and easy to find. I'll be adding lattice this week, but even still, the hull liner is cold and damp so I feel like something needs to be addressed there too. Btw, I am living aboard in seattle, electric heat runs when i'm here, a dehumidifier all the time.
                        Sent from my LG phone




                        js <4sje5@...> wrote:

                         

                        Justin;

                         

                        I have no idea where you would install expanding foam "between the hull and liner" in the forward cabin (vee berth). I have a MK1 and there are no voids in that location. There is no liner beneath the berth and no substantial void between the gear pockets on either side of the berth just below the deck or from the bottom of the gear pockets to the berth platform. The chain locker has no liner either. However, in the saloon, there is a void between the liner and the hull on the port side roughly four or so inches wide which extends from the bulkhead between the head and the saloon aft to the port cockpit locker. There is a void between the liner and the hull in the hanging locker as well.

                         There is a product called Dry Bunk that Fisheries Supply (in Seattle) carries that helps with condensation under the mattress - and for everyone else, I think Defender carries it as well but I don't see it in the West Marine catalog. I bought some a few years ago and can say that it works as advertised. I keep my boat on a buoy and consequently do not have access to shore power. When I berthed in a marina I kept a small 1800W heater going pretty much all winter - naturally that drove up the electric bill significantly. Now I just use three small refillable containers of Dri-Z-Air (or an equivalent product, depending on price) and put one in the vee berth, one in the head and one in the galley and I also installed a solar-powered vent in the head. I also drilled some ventilation holes on the face of both the starboard settee and the aft dinette settee and  covered them with grills. I usually raise the back of the starboard settee as well to provide air circulation to the storage behind this area and I open the two lockers beneath the drawers in the vee berth and crack the doors on the hanging locker. Consequently, I never have problems with condensation or mold/mildew because keeping everything as open as possible provides enough air circulation. I refresh the Dri-Z-Air and dump the accumulated water in the containers every two weeks or so. Of course, having to adjust or close/open everything before and after a winter sail is a bit of a pain, but that's the price I pay for free moorage.  Hope this helps.

                         

                        JS

                         

                         

                         

                         

                         

                        ----- Original Message -----

                        Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 2:38 PM

                        Subject: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness

                         

                         

                        Hey all, 

                        I'm having a hell of a time with condensation. I'm slowly finishing up the insulation, and working on ventilation. 

                        Some where in the past I read that a Y30 owner received advice from S&S on prepping their boat for extended off-shore work. S&S recommended using expanding foam between the hull and liner in the forward cabin. Does anyone have details on this? What type of foam would one use? I'd like to spray the underside of the vee berth as well. 

                        The liner is still really cold, and I'm getting a lot of condensation build up along side and under the mattress.   

                        Any info on the matter (for insulation) is great, if anyone has the list of upgrades S&S recommended, I'd be very interested in seeing that.

                        Justin

                         


                        Justin;

                        I have no idea where you would install expanding foam "between the hull and liner" in the forward cabin (vee berth). I have a MK1 and there are no voids in that location. There is no liner beneath the berth and no substantial void between the gear pockets on either side of the berth just below the deck or from the bottom of the gear pockets to the berth platform. The chain locker has no liner either. However, in the saloon, there is a void between the liner and the hull on the port side roughly four or so inches wide which extends from the bulkhead between the head and the saloon aft to the port cockpit locker. There is a void between the liner and the hull in the hanging locker as well.

                         There is a product called Dry Bunk that Fisheries Supply (in Seattle) carries that helps with condensation under the mattress - and for everyone else, I think Defender carries it as well but I don't see it in the West Marine catalog. I bought some a few years ago and can say that it works as advertised. I keep my boat on a buoy and consequently do not have access to shore power. When I berthed in a marina I kept a small 1800W heater going pretty much all winter - naturally that drove up the electric bill significantly. Now I just use three small refillable containers of Dri-Z-Air (or an equivalent product, depending on price) and put one in the vee berth, one in the head and one in the galley and I also installed a solar-powered vent in the head. I also drilled some ventilation holes on the face of both the starboard settee and the aft dinette settee and  covered them with grills. I usually raise the back of the starboard settee as well to provide air circulation t o the storage behind this area and I open the two lockers beneath the drawers in the vee berth and crack the doors on the hanging locker. Consequently, I never have problems with condensation or mold/mildew because keeping everything as open as possible provides enough air circulation. I refresh the Dri-Z-Air and dump the accumulated water in the containers every two weeks or so. Of course, having to adjust or close/open everything before and after a winter sail is a bit of a pain, but that's the price I pay for free moorage.  Hope this helps.



                        JS





                         ----- Original Message -----
                         From: Justin Craig
                         To: yankee30@yahoogroups.com
                         Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 2:38 PM
                         Subject: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness



                         Hey all,

                         I'm having a hell of a time with condensation. I'm slowly finishing up the insulation, and working on ventilation.

                         Some where in the past I read that a Y30 owner received advice from S&S on prepping their boat for extended off-shore work. S&S recommended using expanding foam between the hull and liner in the forward cabin. Does anyone have details on this? What type of foam would one use? I'd like to spray the underside of the vee berth as well.

                         The liner is still really cold, and I'm getting a lot of condensation build up along side and under the mattress.

                         Any info on the matter (for insulation) is great, if anyone has the list of upgrades S&S recommended, I'd be very interested in seeing that.

                         Justin

                         

                         

                         

                         

                         

                         

                      • js
                        Just adding insulation is not going to control condensation. There are two main causes of condensation: If the temperature of a surface is lower than the air
                        Message 11 of 15 , Dec 9, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          
                          Just adding insulation is not going to control condensation. There are two main causes of condensation: If the temperature of a surface is lower than the air temperature, condensation will form on the surface; and if there is insufficient air circulation, not only will condensation form, but mildew and mold will form.
                          So if you add insulation you need to heat the interior of the boat to the point that the temperature of the interior surfaces is roughly equivalent to the air temperature. And then unless you dramatically improve air circulation you will still have condensation forming on the hatch and port lenses, under cushions, and inside lockers  that are not well ventilated. Here is an instructive page that can answer some questions: www.gorell.com/pages/condensation.htm . At the bottom of the page is a list of remedial strategies to reduce condensation. Note that most of them reflect adequate air circulation. That's why a solar powered vent and a few containers of Dri-Z-Air work well. There are six boats on moorings (no shore power) where I live. My Y30, a Columbia 25, a Spencer 44, a Grand Banks 36, a Bayliner Meridian 49, and a Newport 30. All of us have solar vents and use Dri-Z-Air and most of us use the Dry Bunk sheets beneath the settee and v berth cushions and have no issues with either mold/mildew or condensation. The two guys that don't use the Dry Bunk sheets remove their cushions during the winter. So to recap: adequate air circulation and a passive moisture removal product is all you need.
                           
                          I'd be really interested to see that S&S recommendation about adding foam to add stiffness to the hull - for a couple of reasons. I'm sure most if not all of us realize that S&S are and have always been relatively conservative designers. The Y30s scantlings, unlike Catalinas, Hunters, Newports and a mish-mash of other designs of that period, were spec'd to the MORC (Midget Ocean Racing Category) rule. The operative words here are "Ocean Racing". In my opinion (and, of course I could be wrong) a design firm with the reputation, culture and history of S&S would probably not design an Ocean Racing hull that would require structural additions to make it safe for ocean racing, would they? To me, this recommendation would fall under the "can't hurt if you do it" category rather than the "you should really do it to be safe" category, just as adding a few layers of Kevlar roving to the hull couldn't hurt either, but is it really necessary. I've known of at least two Y30s that have crossed oceans and one that circumnavigated and none reported the slightest "oilcanning" of the hull under any sea state - unlike Catalinas, Hunters, etc. As always, it's your nickel amd your time but if you are going to add foam to add stiffness, make sure that you use 'structural' as opposed to 'insulating' foam. Insulating foam won't give you the structure you're expecting.
                           
                          JS
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 8:20 AM
                          Subject: RE: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness

                           

                          Justin,

                          Keep all of us updated on your progress.  I too am most curious on how this works.  I had given up long ago on the idea of taking care of condensation.  I still use dehumidifiers, light bulbs, etc in the winter, but I still have plenty of condensation around and always have to deal with cleaning the mildew come spring.

                          dane

                          From: yankee30@yahoogroups.com [mailto:yankee30@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jokeed@...
                          Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 3:09 AM
                          To: yankee30@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness

                           

                          Please include me in the photos and success or failure of this project.  Enterprise is always at her slip at night and when not sailing, but doesn't get much winter use....so condensation...but I do keep two 75 watt shop lights burning all winter...and a heater when really cold.

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Justin Craig <endeavor64@...>
                          To: yankee30 <yankee30@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Thu, Dec 8, 2011 4:32 pm
                          Subject: Re: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness

                           

                          Carson,
                          Thanks for the link. If S&S recommended the foam in this area in the past I feel pretty good about it. As you recall I've done extensive insulating, but this area is the weak point.

                          I'll be sure to take pics along the way. I really need to update the restoration blog.
                          As for propane, I'm not using any, I opted for Kerosene for both the stove & heater. At the dock I use electric, and a dehumidifier runs 24/7.

                          Justin

                          On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 2:15 PM, Carson Baker <carson@...> wrote:

                           

                          If you could take some photos of the process, that would be really cool. At the very least, let us know how it goes. My Yankee has a hull pan extending all the way back to the cockpit, and I'm considering doing the same.

                          You may have seen this link:

                          http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f74/has-anyone-considered-spray-foam-50601.html

                          Seems like the issues at stake are:

                          1. the force of the expanding foam (in that it might break your hull pan)

                          2. moisture getting trapped

                          3. flammability 

                          Looks like Hilti offers CF 116 "Filler Foam", the CF 812 "Low Pressure" foam, or the CF 512 "Cold Weather" foam. I'm not sure how to compare those.

                          The benefits seem like it's totally worth doing. Less noise. More insulation. Stiffer hull. I say go for it. If I were wintering in Seattle, I'd totally give it a try.

                          As for condensation, I've had good luck with the Golden Rod dehumidifiers that they sell at West Marine. The previous owner left several of them onboard. They make a difference. I'm also spraying vinegar everywhere and experimenting with Kanberra gel to see if it helps with mold growth. (Kanberra gel totally sounds like snakeoil, but what the hell -- I can't find any negative reviews and even if they're conmen, they've advertised it so well that they can take my money.)

                          Also -- Justin -- when I met up with you last month I remember seeing some propane onboard. If you're using those cans to heat your boat, that could be a big source of your condensation problems. Burning propane really puts out a lot of warm, moist air. When the weather outside gets cold, that's the exact formula for condensation.

                          Since you're at the dock, I imagine you're using electric heat, and you would have correlated propane use with condensation, but I thought I'd throw that out there just in case.

                          Good luck with the insulation!

                              Carson

                          On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 3:45 PM, Melissa Bearns <melissa@...> wrote:

                           

                          Justin, thanks for sharing this info. It's of great interest to me as well!

                          On Dec 8, 2011, at 12:09 PM, Justin Craig wrote:

                           

                          Here is what I've found, A local yard says they would drill holes along the up end of the liner, and pour expanding foam in from the top. The bottom would need to be sealed off to keep the foam from spilling out.

                          I spoke with a expanding foam guy at US Chemicals, he said don't use pour in. The travel is too short and it kicks too fast. He said to contact Hilti, they make injectable foam. like the ones below. One requires a hilti gun to inject the foam. the other is like what we'd buy at Home Depot. Hilti said the temp rating is the only difference. As long as it's above 41 degrees I can use the one that does not need the gun. It's not cheap at $22 a can but I'm going to give it a try.

                          http://www.us.hilti.com/holus/page/module/product/prca_rangedetail.jsf?lang=en&nodeId=-68694#related_products
                          http://www.us.hilti.com/holus/page/module/product/prca_rangedetail.jsf?lang=en&nodeId=-68687

                          I'll report back.

                          Justin

                          On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 10:05 PM, endeavor64@... <endeavor64@...> wrote:

                          Thanks for the reply,

                          In my mkiii, there are no lockets or cubbies in the fwd cabin. If you tap on the liner you can tell its "hallow" behind it. Crawling into the locker under the matteress, I can fit my hand into the gap between the hull and liner. I read somewhere that this area can be filled with foam to increase fwd stiffness of the hull, a +. A by product would be the indulation factor. There is no liner under my mattress. In my last boat I used cedar lattice under the mattress to increase airflow, cheap, smells good and easy to find. I'll be adding lattice this week, but even still, the hull liner is cold and damp so I feel like something needs to be addressed there too. Btw, I am living aboard in seattle, electric heat runs when i'm here, a dehumidifier all the time.
                          Sent from my LG phone




                          js <4sje5@...> wrote:

                           

                          Justin;

                          I have no idea where you would install expanding foam "between the hull and liner" in the forward cabin (vee berth). I have a MK1 and there are no voids in that location. There is no liner beneath the berth and no substantial void between the gear pockets on either side of the berth just below the deck or from the bottom of the gear pockets to the berth platform. The chain locker has no liner either. However, in the saloon, there is a void between the liner and the hull on the port side roughly four or so inches wide which extends from the bulkhead between the head and the saloon aft to the port cockpit locker. There is a void between the liner and the hull in the hanging locker as well.

                           There is a product called Dry Bunk that Fisheries Supply (in Seattle) carries that helps with condensation under the mattress - and for everyone else, I think Defender carries it as well but I don't see it in the West Marine catalog. I bought some a few years ago and can say that it works as advertised. I keep my boat on a buoy and consequently do not have access to shore power. When I berthed in a marina I kept a small 1800W heater going pretty much all winter - naturally that drove up the electric bill significantly. Now I just use three small refillable containers of Dri-Z-Air (or an equivalent product, depending on price) and put one in the vee berth, one in the head and one in the galley and I also installed a solar-powered vent in the head. I also drilled some ventilation holes on the face of both the starboard settee and the aft dinette settee and  covered them with grills. I usually raise the back of the starboard settee as well to provide air circulation to the storage behind this area and I open the two lockers beneath the drawers in the vee berth and crack the doors on the hanging locker. Consequently, I never have problems with condensation or mold/mildew because keeping everything as open as possible provides enough air circulation. I refresh the Dri-Z-Air and dump the accumulated water in the containers every two weeks or so. Of course, having to adjust or close/open everything before and after a winter sail is a bit of a pain, but that's the price I pay for free moorage.  Hope this helps.

                          JS

                          ----- Original Message -----

                          Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 2:38 PM

                          Subject: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness

                           

                          Hey all, 

                          I'm having a hell of a time with condensation. I'm slowly finishing up the insulation, and working on ventilation. 

                          Some where in the past I read that a Y30 owner received advice from S&S on prepping their boat for extended off-shore work. S&S recommended using expanding foam between the hull and liner in the forward cabin. Does anyone have details on this? What type of foam would one use? I'd like to spray the underside of the vee berth as well. 

                          The liner is still really cold, and I'm getting a lot of condensation build up along side and under the mattress.   

                          Any info on the matter (for insulation) is great, if anyone has the list of upgrades S&S recommended, I'd be very interested in seeing that.

                          Justin


                          Justin;

                          I have no idea where you would install expanding foam "between the hull and liner" in the forward cabin (vee berth). I have a MK1 and there are no voids in that location. There is no liner beneath the berth and no substantial void between the gear pockets on either side of the berth just below the deck or from the bottom of the gear pockets to the berth platform. The chain locker has no liner either. However, in the saloon, there is a void between the liner and the hull on the port side roughly four or so inches wide which extends from the bulkhead between the head and the saloon aft to the port cockpit locker. There is a void between the liner and the hull in the hanging locker as well.

                           There is a product called Dry Bunk that Fisheries Supply (in Seattle) carries that helps with condensation under the mattress - and for everyone else, I think Defender carries it as well but I don't see it in the West Marine catalog. I bought some a few years ago and can say that it works as advertised. I keep my boat on a buoy and consequently do not have access to shore power. When I berthed in a marina I kept a small 1800W heater going pretty much all winter - naturally that drove up the electric bill significantly. Now I just use three small refillable containers of Dri-Z-Air (or an equivalent product, depending on price) and put one in the vee berth, one in the head and one in the galley and I also installed a solar-powered vent in the head. I also drilled some ventilation holes on the face of both the starboard settee and the aft dinette settee and  covered them with grills. I usually raise the back of the starboard settee as well to provide air circulation t o the storage behind this area and I open the two lockers beneath the drawers in the vee berth and crack the doors on the hanging locker. Consequently, I never have problems with condensation or mold/mildew because keeping everything as open as possible provides enough air circulation. I refresh the Dri-Z-Air and dump the accumulated water in the containers every two weeks or so. Of course, having to adjust or close/open everything before and after a winter sail is a bit of a pain, but that's the price I pay for free moorage.  Hope this helps.



                          JS





                           ----- Original Message -----
                           From: Justin Craig
                           To: yankee30@yahoogroups.com
                           Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 2:38 PM
                           Subject: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness



                           Hey all,

                           I'm having a hell of a time with condensation. I'm slowly finishing up the insulation, and working on ventilation.

                           Some where in the past I read that a Y30 owner received advice from S&S on prepping their boat for extended off-shore work. S&S recommended using expanding foam between the hull and liner in the forward cabin. Does anyone have details on this? What type of foam would one use? I'd like to spray the underside of the vee berth as well.

                           The liner is still really cold, and I'm getting a lot of condensation build up along side and under the mattress.

                           Any info on the matter (for insulation) is great, if anyone has the list of upgrades S&S recommended, I'd be very interested in seeing that.

                           Justin

                           

                        • nealruxton@jamjam.com
                          Thanks JS, I would agree that compared to other boats that I previously owned, (J24s, Melges 24s) the Yankees seem overbuilt! And I always run a heater in it
                          Message 12 of 15 , Dec 11, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Thanks JS,
                             
                            I would agree that compared to other boats that I previously owned, (J24s, Melges 24s) the Yankees seem overbuilt!  And I always run a heater in it during the wet months!
                             
                            My question to the group is a racing one: 
                             
                            What are the shroud numbers for both light (say 5MPH)  and heavy (say 25MPH) wind conditions?
                             
                            Neal
                             
                            JAM JAM - 90 
                             
                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: "js" [4sje5@...]
                            Date: 12/09/2011 05:10 PM
                            To: yankee30@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness

                             

                            

                            Just adding insulation is not going to control condensation. There are two main causes of condensation: If the temperature of a surface is lower than the air temperature, condensation will form on the surface; and if there is insufficient air circulation, not only will condensation form, but mildew and mold will form.
                            So if you add insulation you need to heat the interior of the boat to the point that the temperature of the interior surfaces is roughly equivalent to the air temperature. And then unless you dramatically improve air circulation you will still have condensation forming on the hatch and port lenses, under cushions, and inside lockers  that are not well ventilated. Here is an instructive page that can answer some questions: www.gorell.com/pages/condensation.htm . At the bottom of the page is a list of remedial strategies to reduce condensation. Note that most of them reflect adequate air circulation. That's why a solar powered vent and a few containers of Dri-Z-Air work well. There are six boats on moorings (no shore power) where I live. My Y30, a Columbia 25, a Spencer 44, a Grand Banks 36, a Bayliner Meridian 49, and a Newport 30. All of us have solar vents and use Dri-Z-Air and most of us use the Dry Bunk sheets beneath the settee and v berth cushions and have no issues with either mold/mildew or condensation. The two guys that don't use the Dry Bunk sheets remove their cushions during the winter. So to recap: adequate air circulation and a passive moisture removal product is all you need.
                             
                            I'd be really interested to see that S&S recommendation about adding foam to add stiffness to the hull - for a couple of reasons. I'm sure most if not all of us realize that S&S are and have always been relatively conservative designers. The Y30s scantlings, unlike Catalinas, Hunters, Newports and a mish-mash of other designs of that period, were spec'd to the MORC (Midget Ocean Racing Category) rule. The operative words here are "Ocean Racing". In my opinion (and, of course I could be wrong) a design firm with the reputation, culture and history of S&S would probably not design an Ocean Racing hull that would require structural additions to make it safe for ocean racing, would they? To me, this recommendation would fall under the "can't hurt if you do it" category rather than the "you should really do it to be safe" category, just as adding a few layers of Kevlar roving to the hull couldn't hurt either, but is it really necessary. I've known of at least two Y30s that have crossed oceans and one that circumnavigated and none reported the slightest "oilcanning" of the hull under any sea state - unlike Catalinas, Hunters, etc. As always, it's your nickel amd your time but if you are going to add foam to add stiffness, make sure that you use 'structural' as opposed to 'insulating' foam. Insulating foam won't give you the structure you're expecting.
                             
                            JS
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 8:20 AM
                            Subject: RE: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness
                             
                             

                             

                            Justin,

                            Keep all of us updated on your progress.  I too am most curious on how this works.  I had given up long ago on the idea of taking care of condensation.  I still use dehumidifiers, light bulbs, etc in the winter, but I still have plenty of condensation around and always have to deal with cleaning the mildew come spring.

                            dane

                            From: yankee30@yahoogroups.com [mailto:yankee30@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jokeed@...
                            Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 3:09 AM
                            To: yankee30@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness

                             

                            Please include me in the photos and success or failure of this project.  Enterprise is always at her slip at night and when not sailing, but doesn't get much winter use....so condensation...but I do keep two 75 watt shop lights burning all winter...and a heater when really cold.
                             

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Justin Craig <endeavor64@...>
                            To: yankee30 <yankee30@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thu, Dec 8, 2011 4:32 pm
                            Subject: Re: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness

                             

                            Carson,
                            Thanks for the link. If S&S recommended the foam in this area in the past I feel pretty good about it. As you recall I've done extensive insulating, but this area is the weak point.

                            I'll be sure to take pics along the way. I really need to update the restoration blog.
                            As for propane, I'm not using any, I opted for Kerosene for both the stove & heater. At the dock I use electric, and a dehumidifier runs 24/7.

                            Justin

                             

                            On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 2:15 PM, Carson Baker <carson@...> wrote:

                             

                            If you could take some photos of the process, that would be really cool. At the very least, let us know how it goes. My Yankee has a hull pan extending all the way back to the cockpit, and I'm considering doing the same.

                            You may have seen this link:

                            http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f74/has-anyone-considered-spray-foam-50601.html

                            Seems like the issues at stake are:

                            1. the force of the expanding foam (in that it might break your hull pan)

                            2. moisture getting trapped

                            3. flammability 

                            Looks like Hilti offers CF 116 "Filler Foam", the CF 812 "Low Pressure" foam, or the CF 512 "Cold Weather" foam. I'm not sure how to compare those.

                            The benefits seem like it's totally worth doing. Less noise. More insulation. Stiffer hull. I say go for it. If I were wintering in Seattle, I'd totally give it a try.

                            As for condensation, I've had good luck with the Golden Rod dehumidifiers that they sell at West Marine. The previous owner left several of them onboard. They make a difference. I'm also spraying vinegar everywhere and experimenting with Kanberra gel to see if it helps with mold growth. (Kanberra gel totally sounds like snakeoil, but what the hell -- I can't find any negative reviews and even if they're conmen, they've advertised it so well that they can take my money.)

                            Also -- Justin -- when I met up with you last month I remember seeing some propane onboard. If you're using those cans to heat your boat, that could be a big source of your condensation problems. Burning propane really puts out a lot of warm, moist air. When the weather outside gets cold, that's the exact formula for condensation.

                            Since you're at the dock, I imagine you're using electric heat, and you would have correlated propane use with condensation, but I thought I'd throw that out there just in case.

                            Good luck with the insulation!

                                Carson

                            On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 3:45 PM, Melissa Bearns <melissa@...> wrote:

                             

                            Justin, thanks for sharing this info. It's of great interest to me as well!

                            On Dec 8, 2011, at 12:09 PM, Justin Craig wrote:

                             

                            Here is what I've found, A local yard says they would drill holes along the up end of the liner, and pour expanding foam in from the top. The bottom would need to be sealed off to keep the foam from spilling out.

                            I spoke with a expanding foam guy at US Chemicals, he said don't use pour in. The travel is too short and it kicks too fast. He said to contact Hilti, they make injectable foam. like the ones below. One requires a hilti gun to inject the foam. the other is like what we'd buy at Home Depot. Hilti said the temp rating is the only difference. As long as it's above 41 degrees I can use the one that does not need the gun. It's not cheap at $22 a can but I'm going to give it a try.

                            http://www.us.hilti.com/holus/page/module/product/prca_rangedetail.jsf?lang=en&nodeId=-68694#related_products

                            http://www.us.hilti.com/holus/page/module/product/prca_rangedetail.jsf?lang=en&nodeId=-68687


                            I'll report back.

                            Justin

                            On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 10:05 PM, endeavor64@... <endeavor64@...> wrote:

                            Thanks for the reply,

                            In my mkiii, there are no lockets or cubbies in the fwd cabin. If you tap on the liner you can tell its "hallow" behind it. Crawling into the locker under the matteress, I can fit my hand into the gap between the hull and liner. I read somewhere that this area can be filled with foam to increase fwd stiffness of the hull, a +. A by product would be the indulation factor. There is no liner under my mattress. In my last boat I used cedar lattice under the mattress to increase airflow, cheap, smells good and easy to find. I'll be adding lattice this week, but even still, the hull liner is cold and damp so I feel like something needs to be addressed there too. Btw, I am living aboard in seattle, electric heat runs when i'm here, a dehumidifier all the time.
                            Sent from my LG phone




                            js <4sje5@...> wrote:
                             

                             

                            Justin;

                            I have no idea where you would install expanding foam "between the hull and liner" in the forward cabin (vee berth). I have a MK1 and there are no voids in that location. There is no liner beneath the berth and no substantial void between the gear pockets on either side of the berth just below the deck or from the bottom of the gear pockets to the berth platform. The chain locker has no liner either. However, in the saloon, there is a void between the liner and the hull on the port side roughly four or so inches wide which extends from the bulkhead between the head and the saloon aft to the port cockpit locker. There is a void between the liner and the hull in the hanging locker as well.

                             There is a product called Dry Bunk that Fisheries Supply (in Seattle) carries that helps with condensation under the mattress - and for everyone else, I think Defender carries it as well but I don't see it in the West Marine catalog. I bought some a few years ago and can say that it works as advertised. I keep my boat on a buoy and consequently do not have access to shore power. When I berthed in a marina I kept a small 1800W heater going pretty much all winter - naturally that drove up the electric bill significantly. Now I just use three small refillable containers of Dri-Z-Air (or an equivalent product, depending on price) and put one in the vee berth, one in the head and one in the galley and I also installed a solar-powered vent in the head. I also drilled some ventilation holes on the face of both the starboard settee and the aft dinette settee and  covered them with grills. I usually raise the back of the starboard settee as well to provide air circulation to the storage behind this area and I open the two lockers beneath the drawers in the vee berth and crack the doors on the hanging locker. Consequently, I never have problems with condensation or mold/mildew because keeping everything as open as possible provides enough air circulation. I refresh the Dri-Z-Air and dump the accumulated water in the containers every two weeks or so. Of course, having to adjust or close/open everything before and after a winter sail is a bit of a pain, but that's the price I pay for free moorage.  Hope this helps.

                            JS

                            ----- Original Message -----

                            From: Justin Craig

                            Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 2:38 PM

                            Subject: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness

                             

                            Hey all, 

                            I'm having a hell of a time with condensation. I'm slowly finishing up the insulation, and working on ventilation. 

                            Some where in the past I read that a Y30 owner received advice from S&S on prepping their boat for extended off-shore work. S&S recommended using expanding foam between the hull and liner in the forward cabin. Does anyone have details on this? What type of foam would one use? I'd like to spray the underside of the vee berth as well. 

                            The liner is still really cold, and I'm getting a lot of condensation build up along side and under the mattress.   

                            Any info on the matter (for insulation) is great, if anyone has the list of upgrades S&S recommended, I'd be very interested in seeing that.

                            Justin


                            Justin;

                            I have no idea where you would install expanding foam "between the hull and liner" in the forward cabin (vee berth). I have a MK1 and there are no voids in that location. There is no liner beneath the berth and no substantial void between the gear pockets on either side of the berth just below the deck or from the bottom of the gear pockets to the berth platform. The chain locker has no liner either. However, in the saloon, there is a void between the liner and the hull on the port side roughly four or so inches wide which extends from the bulkhead between the head and the saloon aft to the port cockpit locker. There is a void between the liner and the hull in the hanging locker as well.

                             There is a product called Dry Bunk that Fisheries Supply (in Seattle) carries that helps with condensation under the mattress - and for everyone else, I think Defender carries it as well but I don't see it in the West Marine catalog. I bought some a few years ago and can say that it works as advertised. I keep my boat on a buoy and consequently do not have access to shore power. When I berthed in a marina I kept a small 1800W heater going pretty much all winter - naturally that drove up the electric bill significantly. Now I just use three small refillable containers of Dri-Z-Air (or an equivalent product, depending on price) and put one in the vee berth, one in the head and one in the galley and I also installed a solar-powered vent in the head. I also drilled some ventilation holes on the face of both the starboard settee and the aft dinette settee and  covered them with grills. I usually raise the back of the starboard settee as well to provide air circulation t o the storage behind this area and I open the two lockers beneath the drawers in the vee berth and crack the doors on the hanging locker. Consequently, I never have problems with condensation or mold/mildew because keeping everything as open as possible provides enough air circulation. I refresh the Dri-Z-Air and dump the accumulated water in the containers every two weeks or so. Of course, having to adjust or close/open everything before and after a winter sail is a bit of a pain, but that's the price I pay for free moorage.  Hope this helps.



                            JS





                             ----- Original Message -----
                             From: Justin Craig
                             To: yankee30@yahoogroups.com
                             Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 2:38 PM
                             Subject: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness



                             Hey all,

                             I'm having a hell of a time with condensation. I'm slowly finishing up the insulation, and working on ventilation.

                             Some where in the past I read that a Y30 owner received advice from S&S on prepping their boat for extended off-shore work. S&S recommended using expanding foam between the hull and liner in the forward cabin. Does anyone have details on this? What type of foam would one use? I'd like to spray the underside of the vee berth as well.

                             The liner is still really cold, and I'm getting a lot of condensation build up along side and under the mattress.

                             Any info on the matter (for insulation) is great, if anyone has the list of upgrades S&S recommended, I'd be very interested in seeing that.

                             Justin

                             

                             

                             

                             

                          • nealruxton@jamjam.com
                            Hi out there! Did nt get one reply - did people receive my email? Cheers and Happy Christmas, Neal ... From: nealruxton@jamjam.com [nealruxton@jamjam.com]
                            Message 13 of 15 , Dec 21, 2011
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi out there!
                               
                              Did'nt get one reply - did people receive my email?
                               
                              Cheers and Happy Christmas,
                               
                              Neal 
                               
                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: "nealruxton@..." [nealruxton@...]
                              Date: 12/11/2011 10:07 AM
                              To: yankee30@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness

                              Thanks JS,
                               
                              I would agree that compared to other boats that I previously owned, (J24s, Melges 24s) the Yankees seem overbuilt!  And I always run a heater in it during the wet months!
                               
                              My question to the group is a racing one: 
                               
                              What are the shroud numbers for both light (say 5MPH)  and heavy (say 25MPH) wind conditions?
                               
                              Neal
                               
                              JAM JAM - 90 
                               
                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: "js" [4sje5@...]
                              Date: 12/09/2011 05:10 PM
                              To: yankee30@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness

                               

                              

                              Just adding insulation is not going to control condensation. There are two main causes of condensation: If the temperature of a surface is lower than the air temperature, condensation will form on the surface; and if there is insufficient air circulation, not only will condensation form, but mildew and mold will form.
                              So if you add insulation you need to heat the interior of the boat to the point that the temperature of the interior surfaces is roughly equivalent to the air temperature. And then unless you dramatically improve air circulation you will still have condensation forming on the hatch and port lenses, under cushions, and inside lockers  that are not well ventilated. Here is an instructive page that can answer some questions: www.gorell.com/pages/condensation.htm . At the bottom of the page is a list of remedial strategies to reduce condensation. Note that most of them reflect adequate air circulation. That's why a solar powered vent and a few containers of Dri-Z-Air work well. There are six boats on moorings (no shore power) where I live. My Y30, a Columbia 25, a Spencer 44, a Grand Banks 36, a Bayliner Meridian 49, and a Newport 30. All of us have solar vents and use Dri-Z-Air and most of us use the Dry Bunk sheets beneath the settee and v berth cushions and have no issues with either mold/mildew or condensation. The two guys that don't use the Dry Bunk sheets remove their cushions during the winter. So to recap: adequate air circulation and a passive moisture removal product is all you need.
                               
                              I'd be really interested to see that S&S recommendation about adding foam to add stiffness to the hull - for a couple of reasons. I'm sure most if not all of us realize that S&S are and have always been relatively conservative designers. The Y30s scantlings, unlike Catalinas, Hunters, Newports and a mish-mash of other designs of that period, were spec'd to the MORC (Midget Ocean Racing Category) rule. The operative words here are "Ocean Racing". In my opinion (and, of course I could be wrong) a design firm with the reputation, culture and history of S&S would probably not design an Ocean Racing hull that would require structural additions to make it safe for ocean racing, would they? To me, this recommendation would fall under the "can't hurt if you do it" category rather than the "you should really do it to be safe" category, just as adding a few layers of Kevlar roving to the hull couldn't hurt either, but is it really necessary. I've known of at least two Y30s that have crossed oceans and one that circumnavigated and none reported the slightest "oilcanning" of the hull under any sea state - unlike Catalinas, Hunters, etc. As always, it's your nickel amd your time but if you are going to add foam to add stiffness, make sure that you use 'structural' as opposed to 'insulating' foam. Insulating foam won't give you the structure you're expecting.
                               
                              JS
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 8:20 AM
                              Subject: RE: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness
                               
                               

                               

                              Justin,

                              Keep all of us updated on your progress.  I too am most curious on how this works.  I had given up long ago on the idea of taking care of condensation.  I still use dehumidifiers, light bulbs, etc in the winter, but I still have plenty of condensation around and always have to deal with cleaning the mildew come spring.

                              dane

                              From: yankee30@yahoogroups.com [mailto:yankee30@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jokeed@...
                              Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 3:09 AM
                              To: yankee30@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness

                               

                              Please include me in the photos and success or failure of this project.  Enterprise is always at her slip at night and when not sailing, but doesn't get much winter use....so condensation...but I do keep two 75 watt shop lights burning all winter...and a heater when really cold.
                               

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Justin Craig <endeavor64@...>
                              To: yankee30 <yankee30@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Thu, Dec 8, 2011 4:32 pm
                              Subject: Re: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness

                               

                              Carson,
                              Thanks for the link. If S&S recommended the foam in this area in the past I feel pretty good about it. As you recall I've done extensive insulating, but this area is the weak point.

                              I'll be sure to take pics along the way. I really need to update the restoration blog.
                              As for propane, I'm not using any, I opted for Kerosene for both the stove & heater. At the dock I use electric, and a dehumidifier runs 24/7.

                              Justin

                               

                              On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 2:15 PM, Carson Baker <carson@...> wrote:

                               

                              If you could take some photos of the process, that would be really cool. At the very least, let us know how it goes. My Yankee has a hull pan extending all the way back to the cockpit, and I'm considering doing the same.

                              You may have seen this link:

                              http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f74/has-anyone-considered-spray-foam-50601.html

                              Seems like the issues at stake are:

                              1. the force of the expanding foam (in that it might break your hull pan)

                              2. moisture getting trapped

                              3. flammability 

                              Looks like Hilti offers CF 116 "Filler Foam", the CF 812 "Low Pressure" foam, or the CF 512 "Cold Weather" foam. I'm not sure how to compare those.

                              The benefits seem like it's totally worth doing. Less noise. More insulation. Stiffer hull. I say go for it. If I were wintering in Seattle, I'd totally give it a try.

                              As for condensation, I've had good luck with the Golden Rod dehumidifiers that they sell at West Marine. The previous owner left several of them onboard. They make a difference. I'm also spraying vinegar everywhere and experimenting with Kanberra gel to see if it helps with mold growth. (Kanberra gel totally sounds like snakeoil, but what the hell -- I can't find any negative reviews and even if they're conmen, they've advertised it so well that they can take my money.)

                              Also -- Justin -- when I met up with you last month I remember seeing some propane onboard. If you're using those cans to heat your boat, that could be a big source of your condensation problems. Burning propane really puts out a lot of warm, moist air. When the weather outside gets cold, that's the exact formula for condensation.

                              Since you're at the dock, I imagine you're using electric heat, and you would have correlated propane use with condensation, but I thought I'd throw that out there just in case.

                              Good luck with the insulation!

                                  Carson

                              On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 3:45 PM, Melissa Bearns <melissa@...> wrote:

                               

                              Justin, thanks for sharing this info. It's of great interest to me as well!

                              On Dec 8, 2011, at 12:09 PM, Justin Craig wrote:

                               

                              Here is what I've found, A local yard says they would drill holes along the up end of the liner, and pour expanding foam in from the top. The bottom would need to be sealed off to keep the foam from spilling out.

                              I spoke with a expanding foam guy at US Chemicals, he said don't use pour in. The travel is too short and it kicks too fast. He said to contact Hilti, they make injectable foam. like the ones below. One requires a hilti gun to inject the foam. the other is like what we'd buy at Home Depot. Hilti said the temp rating is the only difference. As long as it's above 41 degrees I can use the one that does not need the gun. It's not cheap at $22 a can but I'm going to give it a try.

                              http://www.us.hilti.com/holus/page/module/product/prca_rangedetail.jsf?lang=en&nodeId=-68694#related_products

                              http://www.us.hilti.com/holus/page/module/product/prca_rangedetail.jsf?lang=en&nodeId=-68687


                              I'll report back.

                              Justin

                              On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 10:05 PM, endeavor64@... <endeavor64@...> wrote:

                              Thanks for the reply,

                              In my mkiii, there are no lockets or cubbies in the fwd cabin. If you tap on the liner you can tell its "hallow" behind it. Crawling into the locker under the matteress, I can fit my hand into the gap between the hull and liner. I read somewhere that this area can be filled with foam to increase fwd stiffness of the hull, a +. A by product would be the indulation factor. There is no liner under my mattress. In my last boat I used cedar lattice under the mattress to increase airflow, cheap, smells good and easy to find. I'll be adding lattice this week, but even still, the hull liner is cold and damp so I feel like something needs to be addressed there too. Btw, I am living aboard in seattle, electric heat runs when i'm here, a dehumidifier all the time.
                              Sent from my LG phone




                              js <4sje5@...> wrote:
                               

                               

                              Justin;

                              I have no idea where you would install expanding foam "between the hull and liner" in the forward cabin (vee berth). I have a MK1 and there are no voids in that location. There is no liner beneath the berth and no substantial void between the gear pockets on either side of the berth just below the deck or from the bottom of the gear pockets to the berth platform. The chain locker has no liner either. However, in the saloon, there is a void between the liner and the hull on the port side roughly four or so inches wide which extends from the bulkhead between the head and the saloon aft to the port cockpit locker. There is a void between the liner and the hull in the hanging locker as well.

                               There is a product called Dry Bunk that Fisheries Supply (in Seattle) carries that helps with condensation under the mattress - and for everyone else, I think Defender carries it as well but I don't see it in the West Marine catalog. I bought some a few years ago and can say that it works as advertised. I keep my boat on a buoy and consequently do not have access to shore power. When I berthed in a marina I kept a small 1800W heater going pretty much all winter - naturally that drove up the electric bill significantly. Now I just use three small refillable containers of Dri-Z-Air (or an equivalent product, depending on price) and put one in the vee berth, one in the head and one in the galley and I also installed a solar-powered vent in the head. I also drilled some ventilation holes on the face of both the starboard settee and the aft dinette settee and  covered them with grills. I usually raise the back of the starboard settee as well to provide air circulation to the storage behind this area and I open the two lockers beneath the drawers in the vee berth and crack the doors on the hanging locker. Consequently, I never have problems with condensation or mold/mildew because keeping everything as open as possible provides enough air circulation. I refresh the Dri-Z-Air and dump the accumulated water in the containers every two weeks or so. Of course, having to adjust or close/open everything before and after a winter sail is a bit of a pain, but that's the price I pay for free moorage.  Hope this helps.

                              JS

                              ----- Original Message -----

                              From: Justin Craig

                              Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 2:38 PM

                              Subject: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness

                               

                              Hey all, 

                              I'm having a hell of a time with condensation. I'm slowly finishing up the insulation, and working on ventilation. 

                              Some where in the past I read that a Y30 owner received advice from S&S on prepping their boat for extended off-shore work. S&S recommended using expanding foam between the hull and liner in the forward cabin. Does anyone have details on this? What type of foam would one use? I'd like to spray the underside of the vee berth as well. 

                              The liner is still really cold, and I'm getting a lot of condensation build up along side and under the mattress.   

                              Any info on the matter (for insulation) is great, if anyone has the list of upgrades S&S recommended, I'd be very interested in seeing that.

                              Justin


                              Justin;

                              I have no idea where you would install expanding foam "between the hull and liner" in the forward cabin (vee berth). I have a MK1 and there are no voids in that location. There is no liner beneath the berth and no substantial void between the gear pockets on either side of the berth just below the deck or from the bottom of the gear pockets to the berth platform. The chain locker has no liner either. However, in the saloon, there is a void between the liner and the hull on the port side roughly four or so inches wide which extends from the bulkhead between the head and the saloon aft to the port cockpit locker. There is a void between the liner and the hull in the hanging locker as well.

                               There is a product called Dry Bunk that Fisheries Supply (in Seattle) carries that helps with condensation under the mattress - and for everyone else, I think Defender carries it as well but I don't see it in the West Marine catalog. I bought some a few years ago and can say that it works as advertised. I keep my boat on a buoy and consequently do not have access to shore power. When I berthed in a marina I kept a small 1800W heater going pretty much all winter - naturally that drove up the electric bill significantly. Now I just use three small refillable containers of Dri-Z-Air (or an equivalent product, depending on price) and put one in the vee berth, one in the head and one in the galley and I also installed a solar-powered vent in the head. I also drilled some ventilation holes on the face of both the starboard settee and the aft dinette settee and  covered them with grills. I usually raise the back of the starboard settee as well to provide air circulation t o the storage behind this area and I open the two lockers beneath the drawers in the vee berth and crack the doors on the hanging locker. Consequently, I never have problems with condensation or mold/mildew because keeping everything as open as possible provides enough air circulation. I refresh the Dri-Z-Air and dump the accumulated water in the containers every two weeks or so. Of course, having to adjust or close/open everything before and after a winter sail is a bit of a pain, but that's the price I pay for free moorage.  Hope this helps.



                              JS





                               ----- Original Message -----
                               From: Justin Craig
                               To: yankee30@yahoogroups.com
                               Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 2:38 PM
                               Subject: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness



                               Hey all,

                               I'm having a hell of a time with condensation. I'm slowly finishing up the insulation, and working on ventilation.

                               Some where in the past I read that a Y30 owner received advice from S&S on prepping their boat for extended off-shore work. S&S recommended using expanding foam between the hull and liner in the forward cabin. Does anyone have details on this? What type of foam would one use? I'd like to spray the underside of the vee berth as well.

                               The liner is still really cold, and I'm getting a lot of condensation build up along side and under the mattress.

                               Any info on the matter (for insulation) is great, if anyone has the list of upgrades S&S recommended, I'd be very interested in seeing that.

                               Justin

                               

                               

                               

                               

                               

                               

                            • Justin Craig
                              I d recomend starting a new thread rather than confusing this topic. When you start a new one, can you clarify, I don t understand the question. Are you asking
                              Message 14 of 15 , Dec 21, 2011
                              • 0 Attachment

                                I'd recomend starting a new thread rather than confusing this topic.

                                When you start a new one, can you clarify, I don't understand the question. Are you asking about shroud tension?

                                On Dec 21, 2011 10:00 AM, "nealruxton@..." <nealruxton@...> wrote:
                                 

                                Hi out there!
                                 
                                Did'nt get one reply - did people receive my email?
                                 
                                Cheers and Happy Christmas,
                                 
                                Neal 
                                 
                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: "nealruxton@..." [nealruxton@...]
                                Date: 12/11/2011 10:07 AM
                                To: yankee30@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness

                                Thanks JS,
                                 
                                I would agree that compared to other boats that I previously owned, (J24s, Melges 24s) the Yankees seem overbuilt!  And I always run a heater in it during the wet months!
                                 
                                My question to the group is a racing one: 
                                 
                                What are the shroud numbers for both light (say 5MPH)  and heavy (say 25MPH) wind conditions?
                                 
                                Neal
                                 
                                JAM JAM - 90 
                                 
                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: "js" [4sje5@...]
                                Date: 12/09/2011 05:10 PM
                                To: yankee30@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness

                                 

                                

                                Just adding insulation is not going to control condensation. There are two main causes of condensation: If the temperature of a surface is lower than the air temperature, condensation will form on the surface; and if there is insufficient air circulation, not only will condensation form, but mildew and mold will form.
                                So if you add insulation you need to heat the interior of the boat to the point that the temperature of the interior surfaces is roughly equivalent to the air temperature. And then unless you dramatically improve air circulation you will still have condensation forming on the hatch and port lenses, under cushions, and inside lockers  that are not well ventilated. Here is an instructive page that can answer some questions: www.gorell.com/pages/condensation.htm . At the bottom of the page is a list of remedial strategies to reduce condensation. Note that most of them reflect adequate air circulation. That's why a solar powered vent and a few containers of Dri-Z-Air work well. There are six boats on moorings (no shore power) where I live. My Y30, a Columbia 25, a Spencer 44, a Grand Banks 36, a Bayliner Meridian 49, and a Newport 30. All of us have solar vents and use Dri-Z-Air and most of us use the Dry Bunk sheets beneath the settee and v berth cushions and have no issues with either mold/mildew or condensation. The two guys that don't use the Dry Bunk sheets remove their cushions during the winter. So to recap: adequate air circulation and a passive moisture removal product is all you need.
                                 
                                I'd be really interested to see that S&S recommendation about adding foam to add stiffness to the hull - for a couple of reasons. I'm sure most if not all of us realize that S&S are and have always been relatively conservative designers. The Y30s scantlings, unlike Catalinas, Hunters, Newports and a mish-mash of other designs of that period, were spec'd to the MORC (Midget Ocean Racing Category) rule. The operative words here are "Ocean Racing". In my opinion (and, of course I could be wrong) a design firm with the reputation, culture and history of S&S would probably not design an Ocean Racing hull that would require structural additions to make it safe for ocean racing, would they? To me, this recommendation would fall under the "can't hurt if you do it" category rather than the "you should really do it to be safe" category, just as adding a few layers of Kevlar roving to the hull couldn't hurt either, but is it really necessary. I've known of at least two Y30s that have crossed oceans and one that circumnavigated and none reported the slightest "oilcanning" of the hull under any sea state - unlike Catalinas, Hunters, etc. As always, it's your nickel amd your time but if you are going to add foam to add stiffness, make sure that you use 'structural' as opposed to 'insulating' foam. Insulating foam won't give you the structure you're expecting.
                                 
                                JS
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 8:20 AM
                                Subject: RE: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness
                                 
                                 

                                 

                                Justin,

                                Keep all of us updated on your progress.  I too am most curious on how this works.  I had given up long ago on the idea of taking care of condensation.  I still use dehumidifiers, light bulbs, etc in the winter, but I still have plenty of condensation around and always have to deal with cleaning the mildew come spring.

                                dane

                                From: yankee30@yahoogroups.com [mailto:yankee30@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jokeed@...
                                Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 3:09 AM
                                To: yankee30@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness

                                 

                                Please include me in the photos and success or failure of this project.  Enterprise is always at her slip at night and when not sailing, but doesn't get much winter use....so condensation...but I do keep two 75 watt shop lights burning all winter...and a heater when really cold.
                                 

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Justin Craig <endeavor64@...>
                                To: yankee30 <yankee30@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Thu, Dec 8, 2011 4:32 pm
                                Subject: Re: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness

                                 

                                Carson,
                                Thanks for the link. If S&S recommended the foam in this area in the past I feel pretty good about it. As you recall I've done extensive insulating, but this area is the weak point.

                                I'll be sure to take pics along the way. I really need to update the restoration blog.
                                As for propane, I'm not using any, I opted for Kerosene for both the stove & heater. At the dock I use electric, and a dehumidifier runs 24/7.

                                Justin

                                 

                                On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 2:15 PM, Carson Baker <carson@...> wrote:

                                 

                                If you could take some photos of the process, that would be really cool. At the very least, let us know how it goes. My Yankee has a hull pan extending all the way back to the cockpit, and I'm considering doing the same.

                                You may have seen this link:

                                http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f74/has-anyone-considered-spray-foam-50601.html

                                Seems like the issues at stake are:

                                1. the force of the expanding foam (in that it might break your hull pan)

                                2. moisture getting trapped

                                3. flammability 

                                Looks like Hilti offers CF 116 "Filler Foam", the CF 812 "Low Pressure" foam, or the CF 512 "Cold Weather" foam. I'm not sure how to compare those.

                                The benefits seem like it's totally worth doing. Less noise. More insulation. Stiffer hull. I say go for it. If I were wintering in Seattle, I'd totally give it a try.

                                As for condensation, I've had good luck with the Golden Rod dehumidifiers that they sell at West Marine. The previous owner left several of them onboard. They make a difference. I'm also spraying vinegar everywhere and experimenting with Kanberra gel to see if it helps with mold growth. (Kanberra gel totally sounds like snakeoil, but what the hell -- I can't find any negative reviews and even if they're conmen, they've advertised it so well that they can take my money.)

                                Also -- Justin -- when I met up with you last month I remember seeing some propane onboard. If you're using those cans to heat your boat, that could be a big source of your condensation problems. Burning propane really puts out a lot of warm, moist air. When the weather outside gets cold, that's the exact formula for condensation.

                                Since you're at the dock, I imagine you're using electric heat, and you would have correlated propane use with condensation, but I thought I'd throw that out there just in case.

                                Good luck with the insulation!

                                    Carson

                                On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 3:45 PM, Melissa Bearns <melissa@...> wrote:

                                 

                                Justin, thanks for sharing this info. It's of great interest to me as well!

                                On Dec 8, 2011, at 12:09 PM, Justin Craig wrote:

                                 

                                Here is what I've found, A local yard says they would drill holes along the up end of the liner, and pour expanding foam in from the top. The bottom would need to be sealed off to keep the foam from spilling out.

                                I spoke with a expanding foam guy at US Chemicals, he said don't use pour in. The travel is too short and it kicks too fast. He said to contact Hilti, they make injectable foam. like the ones below. One requires a hilti gun to inject the foam. the other is like what we'd buy at Home Depot. Hilti said the temp rating is the only difference. As long as it's above 41 degrees I can use the one that does not need the gun. It's not cheap at $22 a can but I'm going to give it a try.

                                http://www.us.hilti.com/holus/page/module/product/prca_rangedetail.jsf?lang=en&nodeId=-68694#related_products

                                http://www.us.hilti.com/holus/page/module/product/prca_rangedetail.jsf?lang=en&nodeId=-68687


                                I'll report back.

                                Justin

                                On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 10:05 PM, endeavor64@... <endeavor64@...> wrote:

                                Thanks for the reply,

                                In my mkiii, there are no lockets or cubbies in the fwd cabin. If you tap on the liner you can tell its "hallow" behind it. Crawling into the locker under the matteress, I can fit my hand into the gap between the hull and liner. I read somewhere that this area can be filled with foam to increase fwd stiffness of the hull, a +. A by product would be the indulation factor. There is no liner under my mattress. In my last boat I used cedar lattice under the mattress to increase airflow, cheap, smells good and easy to find. I'll be adding lattice this week, but even still, the hull liner is cold and damp so I feel like something needs to be addressed there too. Btw, I am living aboard in seattle, electric heat runs when i'm here, a dehumidifier all the time.
                                Sent from my LG phone




                                js <4sje5@...> wrote:
                                 

                                 

                                Justin;

                                I have no idea where you would install expanding foam "between the hull and liner" in the forward cabin (vee berth). I have a MK1 and there are no voids in that location. There is no liner beneath the berth and no substantial void between the gear pockets on either side of the berth just below the deck or from the bottom of the gear pockets to the berth platform. The chain locker has no liner either. However, in the saloon, there is a void between the liner and the hull on the port side roughly four or so inches wide which extends from the bulkhead between the head and the saloon aft to the port cockpit locker. There is a void between the liner and the hull in the hanging locker as well.

                                 There is a product called Dry Bunk that Fisheries Supply (in Seattle) carries that helps with condensation under the mattress - and for everyone else, I think Defender carries it as well but I don't see it in the West Marine catalog. I bought some a few years ago and can say that it works as advertised. I keep my boat on a buoy and consequently do not have access to shore power. When I berthed in a marina I kept a small 1800W heater going pretty much all winter - naturally that drove up the electric bill significantly. Now I just use three small refillable containers of Dri-Z-Air (or an equivalent product, depending on price) and put one in the vee berth, one in the head and one in the galley and I also installed a solar-powered vent in the head. I also drilled some ventilation holes on the face of both the starboard settee and the aft dinette settee and  covered them with grills. I usually raise the back of the starboard settee as well to provide air circulation to the storage behind this area and I open the two lockers beneath the drawers in the vee berth and crack the doors on the hanging locker. Consequently, I never have problems with condensation or mold/mildew because keeping everything as open as possible provides enough air circulation. I refresh the Dri-Z-Air and dump the accumulated water in the containers every two weeks or so. Of course, having to adjust or close/open everything before and after a winter sail is a bit of a pain, but that's the price I pay for free moorage.  Hope this helps.

                                JS

                                ----- Original Message -----

                                From: Justin Craig

                                Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 2:38 PM

                                Subject: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness

                                 

                                Hey all, 

                                I'm having a hell of a time with condensation. I'm slowly finishing up the insulation, and working on ventilation. 

                                Some where in the past I read that a Y30 owner received advice from S&S on prepping their boat for extended off-shore work. S&S recommended using expanding foam between the hull and liner in the forward cabin. Does anyone have details on this? What type of foam would one use? I'd like to spray the underside of the vee berth as well. 

                                The liner is still really cold, and I'm getting a lot of condensation build up along side and under the mattress.   

                                Any info on the matter (for insulation) is great, if anyone has the list of upgrades S&S recommended, I'd be very interested in seeing that.

                                Justin


                                Justin;

                                I have no idea where you would install expanding foam "between the hull and liner" in the forward cabin (vee berth). I have a MK1 and there are no voids in that location. There is no liner beneath the berth and no substantial void between the gear pockets on either side of the berth just below the deck or from the bottom of the gear pockets to the berth platform. The chain locker has no liner either. However, in the saloon, there is a void between the liner and the hull on the port side roughly four or so inches wide which extends from the bulkhead between the head and the saloon aft to the port cockpit locker. There is a void between the liner and the hull in the hanging locker as well.

                                 There is a product called Dry Bunk that Fisheries Supply (in Seattle) carries that helps with condensation under the mattress - and for everyone else, I think Defender carries it as well but I don't see it in the West Marine catalog. I bought some a few years ago and can say that it works as advertised. I keep my boat on a buoy and consequently do not have access to shore power. When I berthed in a marina I kept a small 1800W heater going pretty much all winter - naturally that drove up the electric bill significantly. Now I just use three small refillable containers of Dri-Z-Air (or an equivalent product, depending on price) and put one in the vee berth, one in the head and one in the galley and I also installed a solar-powered vent in the head. I also drilled some ventilation holes on the face of both the starboard settee and the aft dinette settee and  covered them with grills. I usually raise the back of the starboard settee as well to provide air circulation t o the storage behind this area and I open the two lockers beneath the drawers in the vee berth and crack the doors on the hanging locker. Consequently, I never have problems with condensation or mold/mildew because keeping everything as open as possible provides enough air circulation. I refresh the Dri-Z-Air and dump the accumulated water in the containers every two weeks or so. Of course, having to adjust or close/open everything before and after a winter sail is a bit of a pain, but that's the price I pay for free moorage.  Hope this helps.



                                JS





                                 ----- Original Message -----
                                 From: Justin Craig
                                 To: yankee30@yahoogroups.com
                                 Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 2:38 PM
                                 Subject: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness



                                 Hey all,

                                 I'm having a hell of a time with condensation. I'm slowly finishing up the insulation, and working on ventilation.

                                 Some where in the past I read that a Y30 owner received advice from S&S on prepping their boat for extended off-shore work. S&S recommended using expanding foam between the hull and liner in the forward cabin. Does anyone have details on this? What type of foam would one use? I'd like to spray the underside of the vee berth as well.

                                 The liner is still really cold, and I'm getting a lot of condensation build up along side and under the mattress.

                                 Any info on the matter (for insulation) is great, if anyone has the list of upgrades S&S recommended, I'd be very interested in seeing that.

                                 Justin

                                 

                                 

                                 

                                 

                                 

                                 

                              • jokeed@aol.com
                                I don t know about yankees being overbuilt...to me they are just far superior to the Catalina and Watkins sailboats that I had previously and handle heavy wind
                                Message 15 of 15 , Dec 21, 2011
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I don't know about yankees being overbuilt...to me they are just far superior to the Catalina and Watkins sailboats that I had previously and handle heavy wind so much better and are just so much more comfortable.  I absolutely love mine.....hull #47.


                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: nealruxton <nealruxton@...>
                                  To: yankee30 <yankee30@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Wed, Dec 21, 2011 12:00 pm
                                  Subject: Re: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness

                                   
                                  Hi out there!
                                   
                                  Did'nt get one reply - did people receive my email?
                                   
                                  Cheers and Happy Christmas,
                                   
                                  Neal 
                                   
                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: "nealruxton@..." [nealruxton@...]
                                  Date: 12/11/2011 10:07 AM
                                  To: yankee30@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness

                                  Thanks JS,
                                   
                                  I would agree that compared to other boats that I previously owned, (J24s, Melges 24s) the Yankees seem overbuilt!  And I always run a heater in it during the wet months!
                                   
                                  My question to the group is a racing one: 
                                   
                                  What are the shroud numbers for both light (say 5MPH)  and heavy (say 25MPH) wind conditions?
                                   
                                  Neal
                                   
                                  JAM JAM - 90 
                                   
                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: "js" [4sje5@...]
                                  Date: 12/09/2011 05:10 PM
                                  To: yankee30@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness

                                   
                                  
                                  Just adding insulation is not going to control condensation. There are two main causes of condensation: If the temperature of a surface is lower than the air temperature, condensation will form on the surface; and if there is insufficient air circulation, not only will condensation form, but mildew and mold will form.
                                  So if you add insulation you need to heat the interior of the boat to the point that the temperature of the interior surfaces is roughly equivalent to the air temperature. And then unless you dramatically improve air circulation you will still have condensation forming on the hatch and port lenses, under cushions, and inside lockers  that are not well ventilated. Here is an instructive page that can answer some questions: www.gorell.com/pages/condensation.htm . At the bottom of the page is a list of remedial strategies to reduce condensation. Note that most of them reflect adequate air circulation. That's why a solar powered vent and a few containers of Dri-Z-Air work well. There are six boats on moorings (no shore power) where I live. My Y30, a Columbia 25, a Spencer 44, a Grand Banks 36, a Bayliner Meridian 49, and a Newport 30. All of us have solar vents and use Dri-Z-Air and most of us use the Dry Bunk sheets beneath the settee and v berth cushions and have no issues with either mold/mildew or condensation. The two guys that don't use the Dry Bunk sheets remove their cushions during the winter. So to recap: adequate air circulation and a passive moisture removal product is all you need.
                                   
                                  I'd be really interested to see that S&S recommendation about adding foam to add stiffness to the hull - for a couple of reasons. I'm sure most if not all of us realize that S&S are and have always been relatively conservative designers. The Y30s scantlings, unlike Catalinas, Hunters, Newports and a mish-mash of other designs of that period, were spec'd to the MORC (Midget Ocean Racing Category) rule. The operative words here are "Ocean Racing". In my opinion (and, of course I could be wrong) a design firm with the reputation, culture and history of S&S would probably not design an Ocean Racing hull that would require structural additions to make it safe for ocean racing, would they? To me, this recommendation would fall under the "can't hurt if you do it" category rather than the "you should really do it to be safe" category, just as adding a few layers of Kevlar roving to the hull couldn't hurt either, but is it really necessary. I've known of at least two Y30s that have crossed oceans and one that circumnavigated and none reported the slightest "oilcanning" of the hull under any sea state - unlike Catalinas, Hunters, etc. As always, it's your nickel amd your time but if you are going to add foam to add stiffness, make sure that you use 'structural' as opposed to 'insulating' foam. Insulating foam won't give you the structure you're expecting.
                                   
                                  JS
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 8:20 AM
                                  Subject: RE: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                  Justin,
                                  Keep all of us updated on your progress.  I too am most curious on how this works.  I had given up long ago on the idea of taking care of condensation.  I still use dehumidifiers, light bulbs, etc in the winter, but I still have plenty of condensation around and always have to deal with cleaning the mildew come spring.
                                  dane
                                  From: yankee30@yahoogroups.com [mailto:yankee30@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jokeed@...
                                  Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 3:09 AM
                                  To: yankee30@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness
                                   
                                  Please include me in the photos and success or failure of this project.  Enterprise is always at her slip at night and when not sailing, but doesn't get much winter use....so condensation...but I do keep two 75 watt shop lights burning all winter...and a heater when really cold.
                                   
                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Justin Craig <endeavor64@...>
                                  To: yankee30 <yankee30@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Thu, Dec 8, 2011 4:32 pm
                                  Subject: Re: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness
                                   
                                  Carson,
                                  Thanks for the link. If S&S recommended the foam in this area in the past I feel pretty good about it. As you recall I've done extensive insulating, but this area is the weak point.

                                  I'll be sure to take pics along the way. I really need to update the restoration blog.
                                  As for propane, I'm not using any, I opted for Kerosene for both the stove & heater. At the dock I use electric, and a dehumidifier runs 24/7.

                                  Justin

                                   
                                  On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 2:15 PM, Carson Baker <carson@...> wrote:
                                   
                                  If you could take some photos of the process, that would be really cool. At the very least, let us know how it goes. My Yankee has a hull pan extending all the way back to the cockpit, and I'm considering doing the same.
                                  You may have seen this link:
                                  Seems like the issues at stake are:
                                  1. the force of the expanding foam (in that it might break your hull pan)
                                  2. moisture getting trapped
                                  3. flammability 
                                  Looks like Hilti offers CF 116 "Filler Foam", the CF 812 "Low Pressure" foam, or the CF 512 "Cold Weather" foam. I'm not sure how to compare those.
                                  The benefits seem like it's totally worth doing. Less noise. More insulation. Stiffer hull. I say go for it. If I were wintering in Seattle, I'd totally give it a try.
                                  As for condensation, I've had good luck with the Golden Rod dehumidifiers that they sell at West Marine. The previous owner left several of them onboard. They make a difference. I'm also spraying vinegar everywhere and experimenting with Kanberra gel to see if it helps with mold growth. (Kanberra gel totally sounds like snakeoil, but what the hell -- I can't find any negative reviews and even if they're conmen, they've advertised it so well that they can take my money.)
                                  Also -- Justin -- when I met up with you last month I remember seeing some propane onboard. If you're using those cans to heat your boat, that could be a big source of your condensation problems. Burning propane really puts out a lot of warm, moist air. When the weather outside gets cold, that's the exact formula for condensation.
                                  Since you're at the dock, I imagine you're using electric heat, and you would have correlated propane use with condensation, but I thought I'd throw that out there just in case.
                                  Good luck with the insulation!
                                      Carson
                                  On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 3:45 PM, Melissa Bearns <melissa@...> wrote:
                                   
                                  Justin, thanks for sharing this info. It's of great interest to me as well!
                                  On Dec 8, 2011, at 12:09 PM, Justin Craig wrote:
                                   
                                  Here is what I've found, A local yard says they would drill holes along the up end of the liner, and pour expanding foam in from the top. The bottom would need to be sealed off to keep the foam from spilling out.

                                  I spoke with a expanding foam guy at US Chemicals, he said don't use pour in. The travel is too short and it kicks too fast. He said to contact Hilti, they make injectable foam. like the ones below. One requires a hilti gun to inject the foam. the other is like what we'd buy at Home Depot. Hilti said the temp rating is the only difference. As long as it's above 41 degrees I can use the one that does not need the gun. It's not cheap at $22 a can but I'm going to give it a try.

                                  http://www.us.hilti.com/holus/page/module/product/prca_rangedetail.jsf?lang=en&nodeId=-68694#related_products

                                  http://www.us.hilti.com/holus/page/module/product/prca_rangedetail.jsf?lang=en&nodeId=-68687


                                  I'll report back.

                                  Justin
                                  On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 10:05 PM, endeavor64@... <endeavor64@...> wrote:
                                  Thanks for the reply,

                                  In my mkiii, there are no lockets or cubbies in the fwd cabin. If you tap on the liner you can tell its "hallow" behind it. Crawling into the locker under the matteress, I can fit my hand into the gap between the hull and liner. I read somewhere that this area can be filled with foam to increase fwd stiffness of the hull, a +. A by product would be the indulation factor. There is no liner under my mattress. In my last boat I used cedar lattice under the mattress to increase airflow, cheap, smells good and easy to find. I'll be adding lattice this week, but even still, the hull liner is cold and damp so I feel like something needs to be addressed there too. Btw, I am living aboard in seattle, electric heat runs when i'm here, a dehumidifier all the time.
                                  Sent from my LG phone



                                  js <4sje5@...> wrote:
                                   
                                   
                                  Justin;
                                  I have no idea where you would install expanding foam "between the hull and liner" in the forward cabin (vee berth). I have a MK1 and there are no voids in that location. There is no liner beneath the berth and no substantial void between the gear pockets on either side of the berth just below the deck or from the bottom of the gear pockets to the berth platform. The chain locker has no liner either. However, in the saloon, there is a void between the liner and the hull on the port side roughly four or so inches wide which extends from the bulkhead between the head and the saloon aft to the port cockpit locker. There is a void between the liner and the hull in the hanging locker as well.
                                   There is a product called Dry Bunk that Fisheries Supply (in Seattle) carries that helps with condensation under the mattress - and for everyone else, I think Defender carries it as well but I don't see it in the West Marine catalog. I bought some a few years ago and can say that it works as advertised. I keep my boat on a buoy and consequently do not have access to shore power. When I berthed in a marina I kept a small 1800W heater going pretty much all winter - naturally that drove up the electric bill significantly. Now I just use three small refillable containers of Dri-Z-Air (or an equivalent product, depending on price) and put one in the vee berth, one in the head and one in the galley and I also installed a solar-powered vent in the head. I also drilled some ventilation holes on the face of both the starboard settee and the aft dinette settee and  covered them with grills. I usually raise the back of the starboard settee as well to provide air circulation to the storage behind this area and I open the two lockers beneath the drawers in the vee berth and crack the doors on the hanging locker. Consequently, I never have problems with condensation or mold/mildew because keeping everything as open as possible provides enough air circulation. I refresh the Dri-Z-Air and dump the accumulated water in the containers every two weeks or so. Of course, having to adjust or close/open everything before and after a winter sail is a bit of a pain, but that's the price I pay for free moorage.  Hope this helps.
                                  JS
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 2:38 PM
                                  Subject: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness
                                   
                                  Hey all, 

                                  I'm having a hell of a time with condensation. I'm slowly finishing up the insulation, and working on ventilation. 

                                  Some where in the past I read that a Y30 owner received advice from S&S on prepping their boat for extended off-shore work. S&S recommended using expanding foam between the hull and liner in the forward cabin. Does anyone have details on this? What type of foam would one use? I'd like to spray the underside of the vee berth as well. 

                                  The liner is still really cold, and I'm getting a lot of condensation build up along side and under the mattress.   

                                  Any info on the matter (for insulation) is great, if anyone has the list of upgrades S&S recommended, I'd be very interested in seeing that.

                                  Justin

                                  Justin;

                                  I have no idea where you would install expanding foam "between the hull and liner" in the forward cabin (vee berth). I have a MK1 and there are no voids in that location. There is no liner beneath the berth and no substantial void between the gear pockets on either side of the berth just below the deck or from the bottom of the gear pockets to the berth platform. The chain locker has no liner either. However, in the saloon, there is a void between the liner and the hull on the port side roughly four or so inches wide which extends from the bulkhead between the head and the saloon aft to the port cockpit locker. There is a void between the liner and the hull in the hanging locker as well.
                                   There is a product called Dry Bunk that Fisheries Supply (in Seattle) carries that helps with condensation under the mattress - and for everyone else, I think Defender carries it as well but I don't see it in the West Marine catalog. I bought some a few years ago and can say that it works as advertised. I keep my boat on a buoy and consequently do not have access to shore power. When I berthed in a marina I kept a small 1800W heater going pretty much all winter - naturally that drove up the electric bill significantly. Now I just use three small refillable containers of Dri-Z-Air (or an equivalent product, depending on price) and put one in the vee berth, one in the head and one in the galley and I also installed a solar-powered vent in the head. I also drilled some ventilation holes on the face of both the starboard settee and the aft dinette settee and  covered them with grills. I usually raise the back of the starboard settee as well to provide air circulation t o the storage behind this area and I open the two lockers beneath the drawers in the vee berth and crack the doors on the hanging locker. Consequently, I never have problems with condensation or mold/mildew because keeping everything as open as possible provides enough air circulation. I refresh the Dri-Z-Air and dump the accumulated water in the containers every two weeks or so. Of course, having to adjust or close/open everything before and after a winter sail is a bit of a pain, but that's the price I pay for free moorage.  Hope this helps.


                                  JS





                                   ----- Original Message -----
                                   From: Justin Craig
                                   To: yankee30@yahoogroups.com
                                   Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 2:38 PM
                                   Subject: [yankee30] Insulation, condensation and stiffness



                                   Hey all,

                                   I'm having a hell of a time with condensation. I'm slowly finishing up the insulation, and working on ventilation.

                                   Some where in the past I read that a Y30 owner received advice from S&S on prepping their boat for extended off-shore work. S&S recommended using expanding foam between the hull and liner in the forward cabin. Does anyone have details on this? What type of foam would one use? I'd like to spray the underside of the vee berth as well.

                                   The liner is still really cold, and I'm getting a lot of condensation build up along side and under the mattress.

                                   Any info on the matter (for insulation) is great, if anyone has the list of upgrades S&S recommended, I'd be very interested in seeing that.

                                   Justin

                                   
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                   
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