Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Snatches in songs at chord changes

Expand Messages
  • Cray Z Fournotes
    Ian: This thread was originally: Re: [yamaha-psr-songs] Both Sides, Now (Clouds) but changing direction a bit so I changed the subject Retriggering is the
    Message 1 of 2 , Feb 1, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      Ian:


      This thread was originally: Re: [yamaha-psr-songs] "Both Sides, Now
      (Clouds)" but changing direction a bit so I changed the subject


      Retriggering is the key word I believe. I have been wondering about these
      oddities and find that they happen at times of an early chord change. There
      are retriggering options that can be set during the creation of a style, and
      on the ones that I have heard and seen a problem, there was a quick
      triggering of the current notes and an attempt to portamento bend them to
      the new chord. This could perhaps sound good on a single base line, but
      with multiple notes, the results might be unexpected. I think that is why I
      have found that some of these snatches seem more obvious when played through
      one sequencer versus another. Even though MIDI is a serial beast, some of
      these events are marked with the same time stamp; perhaps different
      sequencers handle these issues differently as they try to interpret a file
      properly.

      In my PSR 9000 manual, they decribe the retriggering (RTR) options within
      style parts as follows:

      . Stop .................................. The note is stopped, and resumes
      sounding from the next note data.
      . Pitch Shift.......................... The pitch of the note will bend
      without attack to match the type of the new chord.
      . Pitch Shift To Root ............ The pitch of the note will bend without
      attack to match the root of the new chord.
      . Retrigger ........................... The note is retriggered with attack
      at a new pitch matching the new chord type.
      . Retrigger To Root.............. The note is retriggered with attack at a
      new pitch matching the new chord root.

      As near as I can tell (only by looking at the resulting files), this pitch
      shifting is attempted with portamento commands.

      Style experts: Am I understanding this issue correctly? I think the
      solution in many (not all) cases is to set the retrigger option to "Stop" so
      you don't generate these short notes and portamento commands.

      BTW, am I wrong or did older keyboards just wait until the next quarter note
      to change the chord, in effect, built in quantizing?

      Z

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Ian Mac Neill" <ianmac@...>
      To: <yamaha-psr-songs@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 3:53 PM
      Subject: Re: [yamaha-psr-songs] "Both Sides, Now (Clouds)"


      Hi Chris, thanks for the kind words.

      I find some styles will snatch, and in some cases, retrigger a part(chord
      tracks are the worst for it, but in "live" performance this is
      acceptable....in a recording...not so good.

      Complex chords like slash chords and flat 9ths sometimes make it
      worse...generally with enough time with the style, you learn to compensate.

      The PSR-8000 was notorious for some of its styles having issues like the
      above.

      Gratefully,

      Ian
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Chris Bell
      To: yamaha-psr-songs@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 4:42 PM
      Subject: RE: [yamaha-psr-songs] "Both Sides, Now (Clouds)"



      Its a lovely melody Ian.
      I liked your gentle approach, with your own Style.
      (The Style snatched a little in places on the 3k)
      Thanks for sharing a beautiful sound.
      Chris


      -----Original Message-----
      From: yamaha-psr-songs@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:yamaha-psr-songs@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Ian Mac Neill
      Sent: 30 January 2007 13:44
      To: yamaha-psr-songs@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [yamaha-psr-songs] "Both Sides, Now (Clouds)"



      "Both Sides, Now (Clouds)" written by Joni Mitchell back in 1967.

      Quick Record on the 3k using my own style(included).

      I hope you enjoy this great tune from the 60's

      Ian






      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


      No virus found in this incoming message.
      Checked by AVG Free Edition.
      Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.17/661 - Release Date: 1/30/2007
      11:30 PM
    • Ian Mac Neill
      Hi Z, Retriggering is useful to me on certain styles, such as Jazz Ballads, which sometimes require more chord changes per measure than most other
      Message 2 of 2 , Feb 1, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Z,
         
         Retriggering is useful to me on certain styles, such as Jazz Ballads, which sometimes require more chord changes per measure than most other genres....the retriggering is usually only on the piano parts,and sometimes the bass.
         
         The first style I noticed where it was used was a Jazz Ballad style on the PSR-2700.
         
         I must tell you that I program exclusively using the Style Creator, and most if not all of my styles are made using the ASSEMBLY...that is, taking parts from donor style and inserting them in the style you are editing.
         
            I used to call them my Frankenstein styles.
         
          I've attached a Jazz Ivories work style that uses retriggering on several parts.
         
          I don't get into the technical end of it very much...I program by ear and use what works for my purposes.
         
          The style used for Both Sides Now, only had retriggering on the bass, and like a lot of styles I've done, it requires lots of time using it to get used to the quirks...much like using a new type instrument.
          
          I myself, wasn't all that used to it when I did the recording, which like most of my tunes, is more of a test mule for a style.
         
           That's why they are usually referred to as my "work styles" as they were originally made for my work...I just decided to share them as they may be helpful to someone else.
         
            Some of my styles can be frustrating to someone not used to changing chords a certain way.
         
           I hope this helps a little.
         
            Ian
         ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 7:56 AM
        Subject: [yamaha-psr-songs] Snatches in songs at chord changes

        Ian:

        This thread was originally: Re: [yamaha-psr- songs] "Both Sides, Now
        (Clouds)" but changing direction a bit so I changed the subject

        Retriggering is the key word I believe. I have been wondering about these
        oddities and find that they happen at times of an early chord change. There
        are retriggering options that can be set during the creation of a style, and
        on the ones that I have heard and seen a problem, there was a quick
        triggering of the current notes and an attempt to portamento bend them to
        the new chord. This could perhaps sound good on a single base line, but
        with multiple notes, the results might be unexpected. I think that is why I
        have found that some of these snatches seem more obvious when played through
        one sequencer versus another. Even though MIDI is a serial beast, some of
        these events are marked with the same time stamp; perhaps different
        sequencers handle these issues differently as they try to interpret a file
        properly.

        In my PSR 9000 manual, they decribe the retriggering (RTR) options within
        style parts as follows:

        . Stop ............ ......... ......... .... The note is stopped, and resumes
        sounding from the next note data.
        . Pitch Shift....... ......... ......... . The pitch of the note will bend
        without attack to match the type of the new chord.
        . Pitch Shift To Root ............ The pitch of the note will bend without
        attack to match the root of the new chord.
        . Retrigger ............ ......... ...... The note is retriggered with attack
        at a new pitch matching the new chord type.
        . Retrigger To Root........ ...... The note is retriggered with attack at a
        new pitch matching the new chord root.

        As near as I can tell (only by looking at the resulting files), this pitch
        shifting is attempted with portamento commands.

        Style experts: Am I understanding this issue correctly? I think the
        solution in many (not all) cases is to set the retrigger option to "Stop" so
        you don't generate these short notes and portamento commands.

        BTW, am I wrong or did older keyboards just wait until the next quarter note
        to change the chord, in effect, built in quantizing?

        Z

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Ian Mac Neill" <ianmac@seaside. ns.ca>
        To: <yamaha-psr-songs@ yahoogroups. com>
        Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 3:53 PM
        Subject: Re: [yamaha-psr- songs] "Both Sides, Now (Clouds)"

        Hi Chris, thanks for the kind words.

        I find some styles will snatch, and in some cases, retrigger a part(chord
        tracks are the worst for it, but in "live" performance this is
        acceptable.. ..in a recording... not so good.

        Complex chords like slash chords and flat 9ths sometimes make it
        worse...generally with enough time with the style, you learn to compensate.

        The PSR-8000 was notorious for some of its styles having issues like the
        above.

        Gratefully,

        Ian
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Chris Bell
        To: yamaha-psr-songs@ yahoogroups. com
        Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 4:42 PM
        Subject: RE: [yamaha-psr- songs] "Both Sides, Now (Clouds)"

        Its a lovely melody Ian.
        I liked your gentle approach, with your own Style.
        (The Style snatched a little in places on the 3k)
        Thanks for sharing a beautiful sound.
        Chris

        -----Original Message-----
        From: yamaha-psr-songs@ yahoogroups. com
        [mailto:yamaha-psr-songs@ yahoogroups. com]On Behalf Of Ian Mac Neill
        Sent: 30 January 2007 13:44
        To: yamaha-psr-songs@ yahoogroups. com
        Subject: [yamaha-psr- songs] "Both Sides, Now (Clouds)"

        "Both Sides, Now (Clouds)" written by Joni Mitchell back in 1967.

        Quick Record on the 3k using my own style(included) .

        I hope you enjoy this great tune from the 60's

        Ian

        ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

        No virus found in this incoming message.
        Checked by AVG Free Edition.
        Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.17/661 - Release Date: 1/30/2007
        11:30 PM


        No virus found in this incoming message.
        Checked by AVG Free Edition.
        Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.17/661 - Release Date: 1/30/2007 11:30 PM
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.