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E-mu habits on non-E-mu gear

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  • Bruno
    Hi folks, recently I was thinking about some sounds in context of my Korg Z1... and after few seconds I discovered that this synth - as powerful as it is -
    Message 1 of 16 , Sep 4, 2013
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      Hi folks,

      recently I was thinking about some sounds in context of my Korg Z1... and after few seconds I discovered that this synth - as powerful as it is - lacks one thing I *really* love in E-mu gear.

      Modulation processors, namely.

      I was also cranking some patches on Alesis Fusion, and the same thing applies (not to mention the FX architecture, which is utterly stupid in Fusion). Being able to modulate the amount of patchcord X with patchcord Y, using lag processors... do you also find those things addictive?

      And how do you cope with the lack of them?

      Looking forward to see your comments,

      Bruno
    • massimo
      ... Ahem. ;-)
      Message 2 of 16 , Sep 5, 2013
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        On 04/09/2013 21:46, Bruno wrote:
        >(not to mention the FX architecture, which is utterly stupid in
        > Fusion).

        Ahem. ;-)
      • Matt
        Yes the modulation processors are awesome and amazingly addictive... some things are annoying on the emu however, *lack of multiple eq points on a channel
        Message 3 of 16 , Sep 5, 2013
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          Yes the modulation processors are awesome and amazingly addictive...

          some things are annoying on the emu however,

          *lack of multiple eq points on a channel (filters only have one eq point)

          *stopping sequencer to implement swing quantize

          *not being able to sample

          *not being able to set a pitch range for individual drum samples from a kit

          *kits not being able to have different filters on each drum (unless u use multiple layers and links)

          *digging through a bunch of menus all the time

          *beats mode and arps occasionally crashing

          *notes not sounding while being edited in pattern edit

          *effects parameters not being modulation destinations

          *lack of a compression effect (not to mention no side chaining)

          *uninspiring effects section

          *inability to set different pattern lengths on different tracks




          On Sep 4, 2013 1:46 PM, "Bruno" <brunorc@...> wrote:
           

          Hi folks,

          recently I was thinking about some sounds in context of my Korg Z1... and after few seconds I discovered that this synth - as powerful as it is - lacks one thing I *really* love in E-mu gear.

          Modulation processors, namely.

          I was also cranking some patches on Alesis Fusion, and the same thing applies (not to mention the FX architecture, which is utterly stupid in Fusion). Being able to modulate the amount of patchcord X with patchcord Y, using lag processors... do you also find those things addictive?

          And how do you cope with the lack of them?

          Looking forward to see your comments,

          Bruno

        • Bruno
          2013/9/5 Matt ... Wow, wow, wow, this one could be an endless thread ;-) And I have to say that some of your points - while valid - would
          Message 4 of 16 , Sep 5, 2013
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            2013/9/5 Matt <somatt@...>
            > Yes the modulation processors are awesome and amazingly addictive...
            >
            > some things are annoying on the emu however,

            Wow, wow, wow, this one could be an endless thread ;-)

            And I have to say that some of your points - while valid - would demand a complete revamp of the architecture. Some of them, however, are quite valid:

            > *stopping sequencer to implement swing quantize

            ...and transposition...

            > *not being able to set a pitch range for individual drum samples from a kit

            ...even Yamaha CS1x can do it (thru SysEx, but still)

            > *beats mode and arps occasionally crashing

            Luckily never experienced it.

            > *inability to set different pattern lengths on different tracks

            Oh, I would LOVE it. However... has anyone tried tricks like xmixing tracks from patterns of different lenghts? Or even better - xmixing tracks from patterns with different time signatures?

            But my question stays open, so maybe another hint: have you found another synth with capabilities similaror equally powerful to modulation processors?

            Bruno
          • Matt
            Hmm only thing that comes close is ableton
            Message 5 of 16 , Sep 5, 2013
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              Hmm only thing that comes close is ableton

              On Sep 5, 2013 3:04 AM, "Bruno" <brunorc@...> wrote:
               

              2013/9/5 Matt <somatt@...>
              > Yes the modulation processors are awesome and amazingly addictive...
              >
              > some things are annoying on the emu however,

              Wow, wow, wow, this one could be an endless thread ;-)

              And I have to say that some of your points - while valid - would demand a complete revamp of the architecture. Some of them, however, are quite valid:

              > *stopping sequencer to implement swing quantize

              ...and transposition...

              > *not being able to set a pitch range for individual drum samples from a kit

              ...even Yamaha CS1x can do it (thru SysEx, but still)

              > *beats mode and arps occasionally crashing

              Luckily never experienced it.

              > *inability to set different pattern lengths on different tracks

              Oh, I would LOVE it. However... has anyone tried tricks like xmixing tracks from patterns of different lenghts? Or even better - xmixing tracks from patterns with different time signatures?

              But my question stays open, so maybe another hint: have you found another synth with capabilities similaror equally powerful to modulation processors?

              Bruno
            • swhiteheadca
              If I understand correctly, the mod matrix in the Virus lets you route a knob or cc, LFO, envelope to a number of modulation points (including effects settings)
              Message 6 of 16 , Oct 21, 2013
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                If I understand correctly, the mod matrix in the Virus lets you route a knob or cc, LFO, envelope to a number of modulation points (including effects settings) or even use it to mod another mod.  I don't recall if you can do math between them, but it's pretty useful for making new sounds.


                The mods on the CS are part of what drew me to it.  I've been looking for one forever and finally fell into one last week.  I'm hoping to figure out how to get Proteum or Prodatum communicating with it so I can get a better understanding of the synths and effects.



                ---In xl7@yahoogroups.com, <somatt@...> wrote:

                Hmm only thing that comes close is ableton

                On Sep 5, 2013 3:04 AM, "Bruno" <brunorc@...> wrote:
                 
                2013/9/5 Matt <somatt@...>
                > Yes the modulation processors are awesome and amazingly addictive...
                >
                > some things are annoying on the emu however,

                Wow, wow, wow, this one could be an endless thread ;-)

                And I have to say that some of your points - while valid - would demand a complete revamp of the architecture. Some of them, however, are quite valid:

                > *stopping sequencer to implement swing quantize

                ...and transposition...

                > *not being able to set a pitch range for individual drum samples from a kit

                ...even Yamaha CS1x can do it (thru SysEx, but still)

                > *beats mode and arps occasionally crashing

                Luckily never experienced it.

                > *inability to set different pattern lengths on different tracks

                Oh, I would LOVE it. However... has anyone tried tricks like xmixing tracks from patterns of different lenghts? Or even better - xmixing tracks from patterns with different time signatures?

                But my question stays open, so maybe another hint: have you found another synth with capabilities similaror equally powerful to modulation processors?

                Bruno
              • Julius @ Wikter
                Kurzweil has a more powerful modulation processor, but less slots, and they re spread along the menus. Some other korgs and Yamaha i.ve used had more fixed
                Message 7 of 16 , Nov 3, 2013
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                  Kurzweil has a more powerful modulation processor, but less slots, and they're spread along the menus. Some other korgs and Yamaha i.ve used had more fixed modulation slots than emu. I think that those 24 slots are quite fewer than needed and a full midi cc support would be great. In fact Kurzweil allows access to any midi CC in their mod slots...

                • steve_the_composer
                  Are you counting 24 slots X 4 layers plus the preset level slots? I would agree if you tweak factory presets, as some of those tend to use a majority of the
                  Message 8 of 16 , Nov 5, 2013
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                    Are you counting 24 "slots" X 4 layers plus the preset level slots?
                    I would agree if you tweak factory presets, as some of those tend to use a majority of the slots.
                    Not sure what you mean by full midi CC support. Do you mean the ability to simultaneously respond to more CCs (up to 128) or the ability to program to the full range of CC values (up to 128)?

                    One of the things I would like to see in my E-Mu is the ability to generate CC values with modulators. Any of the ones you own have that ability?

                    Steve

                    --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "Julius @ Wikter" <wikter@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Kurzweil has a more powerful modulation processor, but less slots, and
                    > they're spread along the menus. Some other korgs and Yamaha i.ve used had
                    > more fixed modulation slots than emu. I think that those 24 slots are quite
                    > fewer than needed and a full midi cc support would be great. In fact
                    > Kurzweil allows access to any midi CC in their mod slots...
                    >
                  • Bruno
                    2013/11/5 steve_the_composer ... You mean generating outgoing CC messages on the basis of an LFO? Or sending CC messages while knobs are
                    Message 9 of 16 , Nov 5, 2013
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                      2013/11/5 steve_the_composer <smw-mail@...>
                      One of the things I would like to see in my E-Mu is the ability to generate CC values with modulators. Any of the ones you own have that ability?

                      You mean generating outgoing CC messages on the basis of an LFO? Or sending CC messages while knobs are being turned?

                      Bruno
                    • D F Tweedie
                      If you re open to hybrid, i.e., mixing computers and your hardware, this might take you a long way in customizing how you d like to work.
                      Message 10 of 16 , Nov 5, 2013
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                        If you're open to 'hybrid,' i.e., mixing computers and your hardware, this might take you a long way in customizing how you'd like to work.

                        http://www.bluecataudio.com/Products/Product_RemoteControl/

                        DF
                         
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                        From: Bruno <brunorc@...>
                        To: xl7 <xl7@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2013 3:58 AM
                        Subject: Re: [xl7] Re: E-mu habits on non-E-mu gear

                         

                        2013/11/5 steve_the_composer <smw-mail@...>
                        One of the things I would like to see in my E-Mu is the ability to generate CC values with modulators. Any of the ones you own have that ability?

                        You mean generating outgoing CC messages on the basis of an LFO? Or sending CC messages while knobs are being turned?

                        Bruno


                      • steve_the_composer
                        CC messages can be generated and sent to external gear from the E-Mu knobs depending what mode the knobs are in. What I had in mind was indeed having outgoing
                        Message 11 of 16 , Nov 8, 2013
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                          CC messages can be generated and sent to external gear from the E-Mu knobs depending what mode the knobs are in. What I had in mind was indeed having outgoing CC messages generated from LFOs, patchcords, etc. I just thought it would be cool to have.

                          --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, Bruno <brunorc@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > 2013/11/5 steve_the_composer <smw-mail@...>
                          >
                          > > One of the things I would like to see in my E-Mu is the ability to
                          > > generate CC values with modulators. Any of the ones you own have that
                          > > ability?
                          > >
                          >
                          > You mean generating outgoing CC messages on the basis of an LFO? Or sending
                          > CC messages while knobs are being turned?
                          >
                          > Bruno
                          >
                        • Julius @ Wikter
                          NO, I mean K2000 can receive and respond to ANY midi CC simultaneously, not only those preset defined CC s. Maybe I m missing something and there s a
                          Message 12 of 16 , Nov 9, 2013
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                            NO, I mean K2000 can receive and respond to ANY midi CC simultaneously, not only those preset defined CC's.
                            Maybe I'm missing something and there's a workaround to assign the midi CC independently.

                            --
                            Julius - O Bicho Home
                            http://mvxsynths.googlepages.com
                          • Bruno
                            2013/11/8 steve_the_composer ... LFOs, patchcords, etc. I just thought it would be cool to have. Imagine the storm of MIDI controllers
                            Message 13 of 16 , Nov 9, 2013
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                              2013/11/8 steve_the_composer <smw-mail@...>
                              > What I had in mind was indeed having outgoing CC messages generated from LFOs, patchcords, etc. I just thought it would be cool to have.

                              Imagine the storm of MIDI controllers :-)

                              But indeed, having a "function generator" outputting MIDI CCs would be nice to have. Arduino etc...

                              Bruno
                            • Bruno
                              2013/11/9 Julius @ Wikter ... To some extent E-mu 2000 line does it as well - IIRC CC#7 & CC#10 are always interpreted as Volume & Pan, and
                              Message 14 of 16 , Nov 9, 2013
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                                2013/11/9 Julius @ Wikter <wikter@...>
                                NO, I mean K2000 can receive and respond to ANY midi CC simultaneously, not only those preset defined CC's.

                                To some extent E-mu 2000 line does it as well - IIRC CC#7 & CC#10 are always interpreted as Volume & Pan, and you don't have to assign them in patchcords. However, CCs are just CCs - messages with sound-agnostic data. How particular synth interprets them, depends both on global configuration and on preset settings. If you don't define how the synth (globally) or patch react to CC #63, what's going to happen if the synth receives it? Nothing, I believe.

                                E-mu architecture assumes a set of 12 (or 16 - depends on devices) controllers, and while their CC numbers are defined globally, they can be freely interpreted *per layer*, as well as per preset (see layer/preset patchcords). Also, presets in E-mu don't define CCs, but internal controllers A-L (or A-P), and you can assign any MIDI CC numbers (at least those defined as "open" by standard) to your internal controllers.

                                I cannot really compare it to the Kurzweil architecture, and the reason is quite simple - I don't have any K2*00 synth. What I can say though, is that I really like the fact that you can easily define "dead zones", for instance Mod Wheel opens the filter cutoff, but only for values above 40 etc. It makes it possible to create very complex and vivid sounds.

                                Cheers,

                                Bruno
                              • Bruno
                                2013/11/9 Bruno ... I meant MIDI CC messages, of course.
                                Message 15 of 16 , Nov 9, 2013
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                                  2013/11/9 Bruno <brunorc@...>
                                  2013/11/8 steve_the_composer <smw-mail@...>
                                  > What I had in mind was indeed having outgoing CC messages generated from LFOs, patchcords, etc. I just thought it would be cool to have.

                                  Imagine the storm of MIDI controllers :-)

                                  I meant MIDI CC messages, of course.
                                • steve_the_composer
                                  You took the words right out of my mouth, Bruno. A few years ago I tried to organize a way to explain E-Mu s uses of pre-defined/hardwired CCs. Maybe this
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Nov 9, 2013
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                                    You took the words right out of my mouth, Bruno.

                                    A few years ago I tried to organize a way to explain E-Mu's uses of pre-defined/hardwired CCs. Maybe this helps in the present discussion: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/xl7/message/21532

                                    See also: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/xl7/message/21820 as it relates to what Bruno talks about concerning layers.

                                    The idea is that while some CCs are pre-defined, E-Mu's have quite a bit of flexibility. As Bruno points out, using CCs a two step process:

                                    1. Define MidiA -> MidiP globally as specific CCs.
                                    2. Use MidiA --> MidiP in patchcords to do whatever you want them to.

                                    Of course, you are not limited to 16 CCs (or 12 on P2K modules). You can use pre-defined CCs in patchcords to do non-predefined tasks (e.g., mod wheel, pan, volume, expression, etc.). Keep in mind the on/off CCs can also be redefined using patchcords. For example, with Footswitch 1 setup a CC 64 (usually sustain), you could design a preset that shoots layers 3 and 4 up an octave (doubling layers 1 and 2) and turns on (or boosts) some effects.

                                    Steve




                                    --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, Bruno <brunorc@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > To some extent E-mu 2000 line does it as well - IIRC CC#7 & CC#10 are
                                    > always interpreted as Volume & Pan, and you don't have to assign them in
                                    > patchcords. However, CCs are just CCs - messages with sound-agnostic data.
                                    > How particular synth interprets them, depends both on global configuration
                                    > and on preset settings. If you don't define how the synth (globally) or
                                    > patch react to CC #63, what's going to happen if the synth receives it?
                                    > Nothing, I believe.
                                    >
                                    > E-mu architecture assumes a set of 12 (or 16 - depends on devices)
                                    > controllers, and while their CC numbers are defined globally, they can be
                                    > freely interpreted *per layer*, as well as per preset (see layer/preset
                                    > patchcords). Also, presets in E-mu don't define CCs, but internal
                                    > controllers A-L (or A-P), and you can assign any MIDI CC numbers (at least
                                    > those defined as "open" by standard) to your internal controllers.
                                    >
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