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Thud at start of 21:2 bas:Sonic

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  • Ricard
    Playing XL-7 preset 21:2 (bas:Sonic), there s a thud at the start of the sound which however is only present if the sound hasn t been played for half a
    Message 1 of 5 , Feb 16, 2013
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      Playing XL-7 preset 21:2 (bas:Sonic), there's a 'thud' at the start of the sound which however is only present if the sound hasn't been played for half a second or so. That is, when playing a continous melody, the 'thud' is only heard at the beginning of the melody.

      It seems the 'thud' is present already in the basic waveform (instrument) used, and somehow it sounds like the START parameter is modulated somehow. For instance, one way I guess would be if the auxilliary envelope were set up in such a way that it would advance the START parameter (due to a long release) if a note were repeated. However, I can't find a patch cord which actually does this, and the aux envelope doesn't look like it's doing anything in this patch.

      Has anyone managed to figure out why this patch sounds the way it does?
    • steve_the_composer
      This puzzle got my curiosity, so I am taking a look. Here are the steps I am using (probably what you used, but as long as I am doing it, I will spell it out
      Message 2 of 5 , Feb 18, 2013
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        This "puzzle" got my curiosity, so I am taking a look. Here are the steps I am using (probably what you used, but as long as I am doing it, I will spell it out in case others are interested):

        Note: I am using the audition riff

        1. Identify what ROM instruments are being used.
        ---> 0347 bas:Sonics on L1 and L2
        2. Identify which layer(s) has(have) the thud/click.
        ---> L2
        3. Check the L2 parameters one by one.
        -->(a) Sound [Sample] Start looks promising.
        ----->at Start = 16, the thud/click/pluck is mostly gone.
        ----->at Start = 28, it is gone even more,
        ------->but still there for the start of the phrase (riff).
        ----->at Start = 48, it is gone even more.
        Hypothesis: The click/thud/pluck is in the ROM Instrument (sample).

        -->(b) Interesting: L2 Filter (HPF) differs from L1 Filter (LPF).
        ----->Thud/click/pluck is present with some filters and not others.
        ----->With HPFs, raising the Freq gets rid of the low end (non-click)
        ----->With LPFs, raising the Freq adds the click.
        Conclusion: The click/thud/pluck is in the sample
        Corollary: You can get change it by modifying the sample start and filter settings.

        4. I changed the L2 ROM Instrument (bas:xxxx at 1st and then others). Got some interesting attacks with other samples on L2.

        5. To see if there were patchcords involved too, I started turning the source controller to off in each patchcord.
        --> (a) L2 cord #08 is interesting
        ------> VEnvSus amount also affects the amount of thud/click

        Anyhow, I hope this helps explain what seems to be going on in this patch.

        Steve

        PS: Somewhere I wrote about taking apart an organ patch. I will see if I can find that as I found the process very insightful. Will try to start a "Deconstructing Presets" index point.






        --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "Ricard" <ricard2010@...> wrote:
        >
        > Playing XL-7 preset 21:2 (bas:Sonic), there's a 'thud' at the start of the sound which however is only present if the sound hasn't been played for half a second or so. That is, when playing a continous melody, the 'thud' is only heard at the beginning of the melody.
        >
        > It seems the 'thud' is present already in the basic waveform (instrument) used, and somehow it sounds like the START parameter is modulated somehow. For instance, one way I guess would be if the auxilliary envelope were set up in such a way that it would advance the START parameter (due to a long release) if a note were repeated. However, I can't find a patch cord which actually does this, and the aux envelope doesn't look like it's doing anything in this patch.
        >
        > Has anyone managed to figure out why this patch sounds the way it does?
        >
      • Ricard
        ... Thanks Steve for doing the research. I m still bewildered about the fact that the thud/pop is not there if the sound is played repeatedly. With the filter
        Message 3 of 5 , Mar 5, 2013
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          --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "steve_the_composer" <smw-mail@...> wrote:
          >
          > This "puzzle" got my curiosity, so I am taking a look. Here are the steps I am using (probably what you used, but as long as I am doing it, I will spell it out in case others are interested):
          >
          > Note: I am using the audition riff
          >
          > 1. Identify what ROM instruments are being used.
          > ---> 0347 bas:Sonics on L1 and L2
          > 2. Identify which layer(s) has(have) the thud/click.
          > ---> L2
          > 3. Check the L2 parameters one by one.
          > -->(a) Sound [Sample] Start looks promising.
          > ----->at Start = 16, the thud/click/pluck is mostly gone.
          > ----->at Start = 28, it is gone even more,
          > ------->but still there for the start of the phrase (riff).
          > ----->at Start = 48, it is gone even more.
          > Hypothesis: The click/thud/pluck is in the ROM Instrument (sample).
          >
          > -->(b) Interesting: L2 Filter (HPF) differs from L1 Filter (LPF).
          > ----->Thud/click/pluck is present with some filters and not others.
          > ----->With HPFs, raising the Freq gets rid of the low end (non-click)
          > ----->With LPFs, raising the Freq adds the click.
          > Conclusion: The click/thud/pluck is in the sample
          > Corollary: You can get change it by modifying the sample start and filter settings.
          >
          > 4. I changed the L2 ROM Instrument (bas:xxxx at 1st and then others). Got some interesting attacks with other samples on L2.
          >
          > 5. To see if there were patchcords involved too, I started turning the source controller to off in each patchcord.
          > --> (a) L2 cord #08 is interesting
          > ------> VEnvSus amount also affects the amount of thud/click
          >
          > Anyhow, I hope this helps explain what seems to be going on in this patch.

          Thanks Steve for doing the research. I'm still bewildered about the fact that the thud/pop is not there if the sound is played repeatedly. With the filter and sample start parameters affecting it, one would expect that an envelope would be playing in somehow, but there's no envelope set up that would seem to match the behavior. Although your 5th point above is interesting, it could have something to do with the loudness envelope, something which I'd ruled out initially as the sound quite audibly does not have a long release so I never thought of looking more closely at it.

          My reason for wanting to get to the bottom of this, apart from the fact that it is intriguing, is that I rather like the patch, but the arbitraryness of the thud/pop is rather irritating, I'd like to get rid of it without affecting other aspects of the sound.

          /Ricard


          > --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "Ricard" <ricard2010@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Playing XL-7 preset 21:2 (bas:Sonic), there's a 'thud' at the start of the sound which however is only present if the sound hasn't been played for half a second or so. That is, when playing a continous melody, the 'thud' is only heard at the beginning of the melody.
          > >
          > > It seems the 'thud' is present already in the basic waveform (instrument) used, and somehow it sounds like the START parameter is modulated somehow. For instance, one way I guess would be if the auxilliary envelope were set up in such a way that it would advance the START parameter (due to a long release) if a note were repeated. However, I can't find a patch cord which actually does this, and the aux envelope doesn't look like it's doing anything in this patch.
          > >
          > > Has anyone managed to figure out why this patch sounds the way it does?
          > >
          >
        • Matt
          I have not tested this but because the thud doesnt happen repeatedly and is affected by envelopes possible offset bias in the sample?
          Message 4 of 5 , Mar 6, 2013
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            I have not tested this but because the thud doesnt happen repeatedly and is affected by envelopes possible offset bias in  the sample?

            On Feb 18, 2013 5:41 AM, "steve_the_composer" <smw-mail@...> wrote:
             

            This "puzzle" got my curiosity, so I am taking a look. Here are the steps I am using (probably what you used, but as long as I am doing it, I will spell it out in case others are interested):

            Note: I am using the audition riff

            1. Identify what ROM instruments are being used.
            ---> 0347 bas:Sonics on L1 and L2
            2. Identify which layer(s) has(have) the thud/click.
            ---> L2
            3. Check the L2 parameters one by one.
            -->(a) Sound [Sample] Start looks promising.
            ----->at Start = 16, the thud/click/pluck is mostly gone.
            ----->at Start = 28, it is gone even more,
            ------->but still there for the start of the phrase (riff).
            ----->at Start = 48, it is gone even more.
            Hypothesis: The click/thud/pluck is in the ROM Instrument (sample).

            -->(b) Interesting: L2 Filter (HPF) differs from L1 Filter (LPF).
            ----->Thud/click/pluck is present with some filters and not others.
            ----->With HPFs, raising the Freq gets rid of the low end (non-click)
            ----->With LPFs, raising the Freq adds the click.
            Conclusion: The click/thud/pluck is in the sample
            Corollary: You can get change it by modifying the sample start and filter settings.

            4. I changed the L2 ROM Instrument (bas:xxxx at 1st and then others). Got some interesting attacks with other samples on L2.

            5. To see if there were patchcords involved too, I started turning the source controller to off in each patchcord.
            --> (a) L2 cord #08 is interesting
            ------> VEnvSus amount also affects the amount of thud/click

            Anyhow, I hope this helps explain what seems to be going on in this patch.

            Steve

            PS: Somewhere I wrote about taking apart an organ patch. I will see if I can find that as I found the process very insightful. Will try to start a "Deconstructing Presets" index point.


            --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "Ricard" wrote:
            >
            > Playing XL-7 preset 21:2 (bas:Sonic), there's a 'thud' at the start of the sound which however is only present if the sound hasn't been played for half a second or so. That is, when playing a continous melody, the 'thud' is only heard at the beginning of the melody.
            >
            > It seems the 'thud' is present already in the basic waveform (instrument) used, and somehow it sounds like the START parameter is modulated somehow. For instance, one way I guess would be if the auxilliary envelope were set up in such a way that it would advance the START parameter (due to a long release) if a note were repeated. However, I can't find a patch cord which actually does this, and the aux envelope doesn't look like it's doing anything in this patch.
            >
            > Has anyone managed to figure out why this patch sounds the way it does?
            >

          • Ricard
            I experimented a bit more with this. The thud is definitely in the sample, and there s something weird going on in the amplifier envelope. With the release
            Message 5 of 5 , Mar 13, 2013
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              I experimented a bit more with this. The thud is definitely in the sample, and there's something weird going on in the amplifier envelope. With the release time set low, the thud happens every time, when advanced there's a longer and longer grace period. It almost sounds like the attack is slowed down if the envelope hasn't passed the release phase.

              I tried with a couple of adjacent Instrument samples which also a lot happening at the very start of the sample, but they did not behave like the Sonics sample.

              One note though: the preset is set to 'Legato fingered mode' which means it is monophonic. When switching Solo mode off, it goes polyphonic, which since now there is a voice allocation algorithm cylcing through the voices instead of playing the same voice all the time, causes the thud to appear every time.

              My theory at the moment is that the particular sample in question has something going on at the very beginning at the sample, at the same time as there is something odd with at least the volume envelope in that the attack is slowed down if it hasn't reached the idle state after the release phase. Seems like some sort of bug. I should look at the signal on an oscilloscope (or waveform editor) to see exactly what it looks like.

              /Ricard
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