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Re: Remote Control: Peculiarities: Button Functionality

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  • steve_the_composer
    Hi, Jim. NOTE: If knobs higher than 4 on the Kenton are not sending data, see the PS below. What data is the Kenton sending?I hope its not E-Mu remote control
    Message 1 of 5 , Dec 8, 2011
      Hi, Jim.

      NOTE: If knobs higher than 4 on the Kenton are not sending data, see the PS below.

      What data is the Kenton sending?I hope its not E-Mu remote control sysex--that would be very messy and highly improbable. If it is CC data, you (and your Kenton freak) have two choices:

      (1) Change the outgoing (Kenton --> E-Mu) CCs to match the E-Mu's midi controller settings.
      (2) Change the E-Mu's CCs settings to match what the Kenton is transmitting.

      I have no idea about programming the Kenton. So:

      (1) Find out what midi data the Kenton is sending. (E-loader has a midi monitor, or you can record the data in a pattern and look at it in an editor.
      (2) Press Controllers and scroll to the REALTIME CONTROLLER # page.
      (3) Set MidiA -> MidiP to whateber the Kenton is transmitting.

      If its not sending CC data, please state the data it is sending.

      I hope this helps.

      Steve

      PS: If the Kenton is not transmitting midi data higher than number 1-4, you need a Kenton expert or user group. Does the E-Mu incoming midi data led only light up with knobs 1-4 on the Kenton? If so, don't bother to change the E-Mu's controllers until you figure out the issue with the Kenton.

      --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "jim.targett" <jim_targett@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi,
      >
      > I have been working with a kenton control freak this evening, trying to get the faders to control the mp7 knobs 1-16. So far only knobs 1-4 can be remotely controlled, and the other knobs do not appear to transmit any midi when turned while in remote mode (as they should). do you have any ideas how to get remote control of the rest of the knobs?!
      >
      > Jim
      >
      > --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "steve_the_composer" <smw-mail@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Inspired by some recent discussions here, today I started devling into E-Mu's Remote Control Sysex again. I dug out some of my old material including a Cakewalk file with a bunch of sysex RC commands (virtual buttons).
      > >
      > > I discovered a peculiarity that seems like it might have some useful applications, so I thought I'd share. Some backgrouns first.
      > >
      > > Once a remote control session has been opened, you can send sysex commands to simulate button presses. The general format is as follows:
      > > F0 18 0F dd 55 40 20 bb bb pp F7
      > > where
      > > dd is the sysex id,
      > > bb bb is the button id, and
      > > pp is the button press/release [00 = release, 01 = press].
      > >
      > > One of the oddities I have known about for a few years is as follows:
      > > F0 18 0F 00 55 40 20 01 00 01 F7 = Master/Global [press]
      > > F0 18 0F 00 55 40 20 01 00 00 F7 = Master/Global [release]
      > > Notice that bb bb = 01 00. (So far, that's not the odd part.)
      > >
      > > Here's the odd part:
      > > F0 18 0F 00 55 40 20 01 00 F7 and
      > > F0 18 0F 00 55 40 20 01 00 nn F7 where nn = 02 -> 7F
      > > cycles through the record modes: Realtime, Grid, Step, Off.
      > >
      > > The concept here is that the format F0 18 0F dd 55 40 20 bb bb pp F7 does what the sysex manual says its supposed to do when pp = 00 or 01. When its missing or pp = 02 -> 7F, there are different RC functions available. (Odd = cool!!)
      > >
      > > That much I knew. I also knew that there are RC commands for the track/enable-mute buttons, like this:
      > >
      > > F0 18 0F 00 55 40 20 02 00 F7 and
      > > F0 18 0F 00 55 40 20 02 00 nn F7 where nn = 02 -> 7F
      > > are Button 6. (For nn = 00 and 01, you get Edit Preset.)
      > >
      > > So, today, I was trying to sort out what the buttons did in the different modes (track enable/mute; triggers: play note events-latch on and latch off, play beats parts, select patterns; edit preset).
      > >
      > > Here's the newest oddity/cool undocumented feature:
      > > (compare latch off mode with latch on mode)
      > >
      > > Mode: Buttons as Triggers
      > > Sub-mode: Play Note Events
      > > Setting: Latch off
      > > Panel Button:
      > > ---> note sounds and button lights when button is held.
      > > ---> sound stops and light goes out when button is released.
      > > (This is what you'd expect.)
      > > RC Sysex Buttion:
      > > ---> turns light on, not sound [light stays]
      > > ---> panel button functions as you'd expect.
      > > (Nothing earth shattering yet; but wait!)
      > >
      > > Mode: Buttons as Triggers
      > > Sub-mode: Play Note Events
      > > Setting: Latch on
      > > Panel Button:
      > > ---> note sounds and button lights when button is pressed.
      > > ---> sound and light stay on until button is pressed again
      > > ---> sound stops and light goes out when button is pressed.
      > > (This toggle function is also what you'd expect.)
      > > RC Sysex Button:
      > > ---> toggles light on and off; doesn't turn sound on or off
      > > ---> effect on panel/hardware button:
      > > ------>(1) if RC button turned light on,
      > > ---------- hardware button turns it off [no sound]
      > > ------>(2) if RC button turned light off,
      > > ---------- the sound that was playing continues and
      > > ---------- the latched note can be retriggered!!!!!
      > > ---> turn all sounds off using panel button.
      > >
      > > It is also possible to switch presets on the display and retrigger a different preset using the same button. However, switching from an arp pre-set, turns the arp off--unless you switch to another arp.
      > >
      > > With various envelopes and patchcord effects, this adds a whole new dimension to one-button performance strategies basically by turning the latched light off, leaving the sound still latched, and using the same old button to (re)trigger another sound.
      > >
      > > Steve
      > >
      >
    • steve_the_composer
      Thanks for clarifying that, Jim. Its rather gutsy to use remote control sysex mode in a performance, but if it works for you guys, great. I haven t looked,
      Message 2 of 5 , Dec 8, 2011
        Thanks for clarifying that, Jim. Its rather gutsy to use remote control sysex mode in a performance, but if it works for you guys, great. I haven't looked, but now that you mention it, it does sound very familiar that sysex parameters exist for only knobs 1-4. I will have to dig out my documentation, but if the knobs don't output data in rc mode (which I seem to recall using as a guide when I was mining rc), I am doubtful.

        Somewhere (here or in the P2K group), I posted a table after having mined remote control values from 0x00 to 0x7f. I will try to find the table and post a link. Also, somewhere here in the message archives (I believe) are additional discussions of remote control sysex parameters. I will see if I can find those posts (or a single link to a message that has a whole bunch of related links).

        Your explanation of using rc mode to do stuff with grid recording sounds interesting. I will have to read it when my stomach is not yelling at me to make dinner. I will also have to re-read why using CCs will not help.

        In the meantime, how many bytes of sysex code can you program into each Kenton knob? I ask because there may be a solution using something I described as part of a discussion of embedded sysex. I thing I have a few demos, including one that turns the track enable/mute/trigger lights on and off in patterns when played from the sequencer.

        The basic concept with embedded rc sysex is that you can go to a particular menu page, put the cursor where you want, and then turn the main encoder knob all the way left or right [via rc] to set your starting point. Once you know where your cursor is and what value it has, you can in essence manipulate the E-Mu by simulating display changes.

        I mention this as a >>possible<< way to do your grid recording gate changes.

        I did the embedded rc sysex thing using a pattern in the sequencer; I am not sure you can do the same thing with the Kenton. Do you have a link to a pdf manual that explains its programmability?

        Steve




        --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "jim.targett" <jim_targett@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Steve,
        >
        > Thanks for the quick reply!
        >
        > The kenton is sending remote control sysex, and works beautifully with knobs 1-4. The freak is capable of 14bit unsigned variables! The problem is that I don't know the id number for knobs 5-16. The sysex implementation manual 2.2 only has the id no for knobs "a/e, b/f, c/g, d/h", which i assume refers to the rackmount proteus 2000's rather than the command stations. i tried to continue incrementing the knob id's, but it didnt work. Also, when in remote control mode the knobs etc are supposed to send their sysex data out of the midi out on mp7 but knobs 5-16 don't! knobs 1-4 work fine and send their appropriate midi sysex data out when in rc mode.
        >
        > I have to use the remote sysex rather than midi cc, because the idea was to get control of grid record gate times / velocities using the 16 faders on the control freak. Its a shame cause I was lookin forward to creating some grooves with the 16 faders! Works fine with knobs 1-4 but obviously that's not really good enough! I reckon if I used midi cc's instead, it would just give me control over whatever knobs a-p are patched to in the preset assigned to that channel. Do the command stations respond to any other sysex remote messages not in the manual?
        >
        > Any ideas or input would be most welcome!
        >
        >
        > --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "steve_the_composer" <smw-mail@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi, Jim.
        > >
        > > NOTE: If knobs higher than 4 on the Kenton are not sending data, see the PS below.
        > >
        > > What data is the Kenton sending?I hope its not E-Mu remote control sysex--that would be very messy and highly improbable. If it is CC data, you (and your Kenton freak) have two choices:
        > >
        > > (1) Change the outgoing (Kenton --> E-Mu) CCs to match the E-Mu's midi controller settings.
        > > (2) Change the E-Mu's CCs settings to match what the Kenton is transmitting.
        > >
        > > I have no idea about programming the Kenton. So:
        > >
        > > (1) Find out what midi data the Kenton is sending. (E-loader has a midi monitor, or you can record the data in a pattern and look at it in an editor.
        > > (2) Press Controllers and scroll to the REALTIME CONTROLLER # page.
        > > (3) Set MidiA -> MidiP to whateber the Kenton is transmitting.
        > >
        > > If its not sending CC data, please state the data it is sending.
        > >
        > > I hope this helps.
        > >
        > > Steve
        > >
        > > PS: If the Kenton is not transmitting midi data higher than number 1-4, you need a Kenton expert or user group. Does the E-Mu incoming midi data led only light up with knobs 1-4 on the Kenton? If so, don't bother to change the E-Mu's controllers until you figure out the issue with the Kenton.
        > >
        > > --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "jim.targett" <jim_targett@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Hi,
        > > >
        > > > I have been working with a kenton control freak this evening, trying to get the faders to control the mp7 knobs 1-16. So far only knobs 1-4 can be remotely controlled, and the other knobs do not appear to transmit any midi when turned while in remote mode (as they should). do you have any ideas how to get remote control of the rest of the knobs?!
        > > >
        > > > Jim
        > > >
        > > > --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "steve_the_composer" <smw-mail@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Inspired by some recent discussions here, today I started devling into E-Mu's Remote Control Sysex again. I dug out some of my old material including a Cakewalk file with a bunch of sysex RC commands (virtual buttons).
        > > > >
        > > > > I discovered a peculiarity that seems like it might have some useful applications, so I thought I'd share. Some backgrouns first.
        > > > >
        > > > > Once a remote control session has been opened, you can send sysex commands to simulate button presses. The general format is as follows:
        > > > > F0 18 0F dd 55 40 20 bb bb pp F7
        > > > > where
        > > > > dd is the sysex id,
        > > > > bb bb is the button id, and
        > > > > pp is the button press/release [00 = release, 01 = press].
        > > > >
        > > > > One of the oddities I have known about for a few years is as follows:
        > > > > F0 18 0F 00 55 40 20 01 00 01 F7 = Master/Global [press]
        > > > > F0 18 0F 00 55 40 20 01 00 00 F7 = Master/Global [release]
        > > > > Notice that bb bb = 01 00. (So far, that's not the odd part.)
        > > > >
        > > > > Here's the odd part:
        > > > > F0 18 0F 00 55 40 20 01 00 F7 and
        > > > > F0 18 0F 00 55 40 20 01 00 nn F7 where nn = 02 -> 7F
        > > > > cycles through the record modes: Realtime, Grid, Step, Off.
        > > > >
        > > > > The concept here is that the format F0 18 0F dd 55 40 20 bb bb pp F7 does what the sysex manual says its supposed to do when pp = 00 or 01. When its missing or pp = 02 -> 7F, there are different RC functions available. (Odd = cool!!)
        > > > >
        > > > > That much I knew. I also knew that there are RC commands for the track/enable-mute buttons, like this:
        > > > >
        > > > > F0 18 0F 00 55 40 20 02 00 F7 and
        > > > > F0 18 0F 00 55 40 20 02 00 nn F7 where nn = 02 -> 7F
        > > > > are Button 6. (For nn = 00 and 01, you get Edit Preset.)
        > > > >
        > > > > So, today, I was trying to sort out what the buttons did in the different modes (track enable/mute; triggers: play note events-latch on and latch off, play beats parts, select patterns; edit preset).
        > > > >
        > > > > Here's the newest oddity/cool undocumented feature:
        > > > > (compare latch off mode with latch on mode)
        > > > >
        > > > > Mode: Buttons as Triggers
        > > > > Sub-mode: Play Note Events
        > > > > Setting: Latch off
        > > > > Panel Button:
        > > > > ---> note sounds and button lights when button is held.
        > > > > ---> sound stops and light goes out when button is released.
        > > > > (This is what you'd expect.)
        > > > > RC Sysex Buttion:
        > > > > ---> turns light on, not sound [light stays]
        > > > > ---> panel button functions as you'd expect.
        > > > > (Nothing earth shattering yet; but wait!)
        > > > >
        > > > > Mode: Buttons as Triggers
        > > > > Sub-mode: Play Note Events
        > > > > Setting: Latch on
        > > > > Panel Button:
        > > > > ---> note sounds and button lights when button is pressed.
        > > > > ---> sound and light stay on until button is pressed again
        > > > > ---> sound stops and light goes out when button is pressed.
        > > > > (This toggle function is also what you'd expect.)
        > > > > RC Sysex Button:
        > > > > ---> toggles light on and off; doesn't turn sound on or off
        > > > > ---> effect on panel/hardware button:
        > > > > ------>(1) if RC button turned light on,
        > > > > ---------- hardware button turns it off [no sound]
        > > > > ------>(2) if RC button turned light off,
        > > > > ---------- the sound that was playing continues and
        > > > > ---------- the latched note can be retriggered!!!!!
        > > > > ---> turn all sounds off using panel button.
        > > > >
        > > > > It is also possible to switch presets on the display and retrigger a different preset using the same button. However, switching from an arp pre-set, turns the arp off--unless you switch to another arp.
        > > > >
        > > > > With various envelopes and patchcord effects, this adds a whole new dimension to one-button performance strategies basically by turning the latched light off, leaving the sound still latched, and using the same old button to (re)trigger another sound.
        > > > >
        > > > > Steve
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • steve_the_composer
        I just looked at the table--sorry to say, its just the buttons. I am wondering if I didn t do a table for the knobs because I discovered there was no
        Message 3 of 5 , Dec 8, 2011
          I just looked at the table--sorry to say, its just the buttons. I am wondering if I didn't do a table for the knobs because I discovered there was no functionality other than what was in the sysex manual (as I believe you have discovered).
        • steve_the_composer
          Nice!!!! Glad to hear you were able to make it work. Thanks for sharing the details of your solution; I share in your joy at fashioning this solution. Perhaps
          Message 4 of 5 , Dec 23, 2011
            Nice!!!! Glad to hear you were able to make it work. Thanks for sharing the details of your solution; I share in your joy at fashioning this solution. Perhaps it will inspire others to use remote control for things like this and other performance techniques.
            Steve



            --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "jtoxon" <nativewit@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Steve,
            >
            > I managed in the end to get the control freak to control the grid record knobs. It works -almost- perfectly. . .
            >
            > I set each fader to do the following each time its value changed:-
            >
            > 1. - Press corresponding trigger button
            > 2. - dial encoder back down to zero
            > 3. - dial encoder back up again by an amount equal to the fader value (0-127).
            >
            > In between 1. and 2. I put some blank bytes to give the mp7 time to respond to the trigger button press. It works fine when seq is stopped, but once playing it occasionally updates the previous grid value as well as the new one. It needs a tiny bit more delay time before the encoder movements. To get round this I programmed the button above each slider to do the following:-
            >
            > Button press:- press trigger button
            >
            > Button release:- Dial encoder down, Dial encoder up again to fader value.
            >
            > The delay between pressing and releasing the button is enough for the mp7 to respond correctly. You can press them as quick as you like and it works fine, setting the grid value to its corresponding fader value. You can also use this to copy values to other bars!
            >
            > I also set up one of the other function buttons to toggle between "Loop Current Bar" and "Loop Off" which is useful.
            >
            > Thanks for the idea about zeroing encoders, I prob wouldn't have been able to do it without that, so I'm very grateful!
            >
            > Jim
            >
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