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RE: [wwbc] Re: Photos + itinerary

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  • Adrian Jowett
    Elliott To comment on the last bit of your little speech, it s not just the farming fraternity that push up the price of the land, don t forget our landed
    Message 1 of 24 , Mar 8, 2001
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      Elliott
      To comment on the last bit of your little speech, it's not just the farming
      fraternity that push up the price of the land, don't forget our landed
      gentry. The good old hunting, shooting and fishing brigade, who are
      responsible for the management of vast areas of the British countryside so
      that they can sportingly reduce the numbers of our little furred and
      feathered friends.
      I'm not particularly worried about the numbers of foxes in the country,
      they are a nuisance to many people, but more so in towns than the
      countryside as the urban fox population now far outstrips the country one
      (more dustbins to raid?). And of course the birds are generally bred
      specially (it's easier to shoot vast flocks of tame birds than have to take
      aim at a few wild ones flying for cover). The thing that worries me is what
      fox hunting says about the human species. As has been pointed out far more
      animals are killed by cars than hunts, also the idea of foxes in hen houses
      is a little silly considering the vast majority of British hens have never
      been near one in this age of intensive farming. So if it's not an effective
      method of controlling a serious pest problem why do it? Surely people in
      the twenty first century can't enjoy chasing a defenceless animal around
      the country side with the aim of catching it and having their dogs rip it
      to pieces? That would be barbaric! Sadly this would seem to be the case,
      and as I said, it worries me what this says about my fellow man.

      Adrian


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Elliott Bignell [SMTP:ebignell01@...]
      Sent: 08 March 2001 10:40
      To: wwbc@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [wwbc] Re: Photos + itinerary

      Hi, Dougie,

      No, we do not need farmers, at least, not the current
      ones we have in the UK. We need food. That requires
      someone to farm, but it does not imply that those
      currently doing so are the only ones able or entitled
      to do so. I need someone to produce wheat for bread,
      but that doesn't mean I need someone to produce wheat
      for bread by exterminating wildflowers and birds,
      crushing the soil with heavy machinery and allowing it
      to run off into the rivers and drenching the wheat
      with toxic chemicals. That doesn't mean that I, and
      other working people, should be excluded from owning
      land by overcapitalisation and excluded from walking
      the land by fences.

      The proposition that if one particular businessman
      goes out of business, then the business itself will
      disappear is simply false. They cannot roll up their
      fields and take them off to the city. The land
      remains, and if the current industry can be stamped
      out before the last of the soil runs off, it will
      remain productive. If the industry collapses,
      crucially, it will become affordable to ordinary
      people, as it is in France. 100,000 Britons now live
      in Brittany alone, and nearly all of them produce some
      of their own food. 25% of the population of France is
      partially involved in farming, which has a great deal
      to do with France's vibrant and varied eating culture.
      The people still know what their food IS!

      Britain is traditionally dewy-eyed about farming, but
      that's largely because they're basically ignorant of
      what goes on on farms, and what ends up in their food,
      and just how much they are paying. Even the
      overwhelming majority of country people are no longer
      involved in the process - they can't afford the land.
      This situation is inherently unhealthy, and it's
      costing us the Earth.

      Cheers...
      Elliott

      --- Dougie Rankine <rankine@...>
      wrote:
      > Dear Elliot,
      > Is that a more emotional form of the "Evolution of
      > the Species"? Social
      > Darwinism rearing its ugly head? Farming is
      > important, farmers are
      > important. They feed us, directly and through the
      > economy, we need them as
      > much as they need us. There are also a lot of
      > industries ancillary to
      > farming, which will be affected. One bankrupt farm
      > is one less computer
      > needed. Does the parasite destroy the host? For
      > that reason they have a
      > lot of clout. We live in a society where there are
      > two kinds of clout, the
      > clout of wealth and the clout of wisdom. They
      > clash, sometimes they
      > compromise, sometimes one wins over the other,
      > sometimes they both win,
      > sometimes they both lose, then we are all on the
      > wrong side of the fan. It
      > is a zero sum game.
      > All the best,
      > Dougie.


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    • Dougie Rankine
      Dear Elliot, We agree, we do need farmers, perhaps not the present kind of farmers, but more ecologically sound ones! (to use one of my more hackneyed
      Message 2 of 24 , Mar 8, 2001
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        Dear Elliot,
        We agree, we do need farmers, perhaps not the present kind of farmers, but
        more ecologically sound ones! (to use one of my more hackneyed phrases!)
        You can't change the farmers or the system all at once, you have to do both
        over a period of time. However that would take conscious direction from
        government with the backing of a substantial part of the people and the
        farmers have a lot of clout in that area, representation in government,
        through MAFF, the NFU, the aggro-chemical industry to name but a few. Would
        anyone go back to working the land without tractors or the mechanisation
        which we operate now in the farming industry? Not an easy process. How do
        you price the land? The way that Karl Marx suggests in Das Kapital, or as
        Adam Smith suggested, which point was taken up by K.M?... That is already
        being done, do we return to small farms, to "organic" farming, to small-time
        production?... I don't think we can afford the luxury.

        If all of the consultants working in the National Health Service refused to
        renew their contracts and went on holiday, who would we be trusting for the
        brain operation and where would we be getting one from and would we have the
        money to pay for it? (if we needed it, of course!) Lenin argued in one of
        his treatises, that dual systems had to be set up if things were to be
        changed, both of them running along side one another, so that the "better"
        one could take over. This was revolutionary talk of course, which was
        eventually turned into revolutionary action and then the Soviet Union was
        born. Look what the "winners", the proletariat, did to farming and the
        farmers, in the name of socialism and communism. 100,000 Britons living in
        Brittany ain't going to solve the food problem, but it is leading to a lot
        of property speculation which the French are getting rather upset about as
        it is increasing house prices and land prices and forcing a lot of French
        peasants out of business, out of their local communities and into the
        cities. It won't be long before those forces in the French parliament start
        to raise their voices about it.

        We don't have a tradition of peasant farming in this country, crofting and
        hill farming is very small in the industry and the trend is toward larger
        farms and farming being seen as an industry because it is more efficient to
        do it that way. People want quality food at a cheap price. I have nothing
        against the food served up at McDonalds, in fact I rather like it and go
        there quite often. Very nutritious, good quality, perhaps even too
        nutritious, but I can't help being a greedy pig, when it comes to their
        hamburgers and sauces and cheeses! I like to buy my food at the big
        supermarkets because I know that I am going to get quality and regular
        standards at a reasonable price. There is a move towards farmers markets in
        the countryside, but unfortunately, very few farmers are selling their
        produce direct to the public through them, it is more the "organic" and twee
        people who are using them, selling to the tourists. The farmers want the
        government to subsidise them so that they can compete with the supermarkets.
        Subsidies have become a habit, necessary in their time when the country was
        short of the basic foodstuffs. Nowadays it is a bit different, we are all a
        bit more prosperous and we have lots of choice.

        Perhaps it won't be long before we are growing meat on the production line,
        like we grow tomatoes, the bio technical industry is heading that way. That
        will destroy one of the joys of visiting the countryside and passing by the
        pig farm when the bore is rooting noisily away at the sow.
        I don't agree that present day farming practices are costing us the earth,
        either. They are contributing to some of the processes which can have a
        long term effect on our living practices, but it is no worse than the motor
        car, industrialisation, power stations, nuclear power and war. I am sure
        that if people can't discover the laws of nature and practice them, then
        some other superior species will evolve, or be created that can. Though,
        the earth as a biosphere doesn't need human beings at all to continue in
        existence, (that is provided that one doesn't believe in solipsism of
        course!)
        All the best,
        Dougie.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Elliott Bignell [mailto:ebignell01@...]
        Sent: 08 March 2001 10:40
        To: wwbc@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [wwbc] Re: Photos + itinerary

        Hi, Dougie,

        No, we do not need farmers, at least, not the current
        ones we have in the UK. We need food. That requires
        someone to farm, but it does not imply that those
        currently doing so are the only ones able or entitled
        to do so. I need someone to produce wheat for bread,
        but that doesn't mean I need someone to produce wheat
        for bread by exterminating wildflowers and birds,
        crushing the soil with heavy machinery and allowing it
        to run off into the rivers and drenching the wheat
        with toxic chemicals. That doesn't mean that I, and
        other working people, should be excluded from owning
        land by overcapitalisation and excluded from walking
        the land by fences.

        The proposition that if one particular businessman
        goes out of business, then the business itself will
        disappear is simply false. They cannot roll up their
        fields and take them off to the city. The land
        remains, and if the current industry can be stamped
        out before the last of the soil runs off, it will
        remain productive. If the industry collapses,
        crucially, it will become affordable to ordinary
        people, as it is in France. 100,000 Britons now live
        in Brittany alone, and nearly all of them produce some
        of their own food. 25% of the population of France is
        partially involved in farming, which has a great deal
        to do with France's vibrant and varied eating culture.
        The people still know what their food IS!

        Britain is traditionally dewy-eyed about farming, but
        that's largely because they're basically ignorant of
        what goes on on farms, and what ends up in their food,
        and just how much they are paying. Even the
        overwhelming majority of country people are no longer
        involved in the process - they can't afford the land.
        This situation is inherently unhealthy, and it's
        costing us the Earth.

        Cheers...
        Elliott
      • Dougie Rankine
        Dear Guru, Sometimes the economic ones are the most important ones. Sometimes other forces rule. If you had the money would you fly across the Atlantic or
        Message 3 of 24 , Mar 8, 2001
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          Dear Guru,
          Sometimes the economic ones are the most important ones. Sometimes other
          forces rule. If you had the money would you fly across the Atlantic or sail
          it in a bucket? Human's have been chasing each other since there were at
          least two of them on the planet, sometimes they did it for fun, for the
          sheer pleasure of it, sometimes they did it for food, sometimes they did it
          with ritual, sometimes they did it for vengeance. In fact, think of a
          reason, a motive, and they did it. They still do, as a matter of fact.
          All the best,
          Dougie.

          -----Original Message-----
          From: guru@... [mailto:guru@...]
          Sent: 08 March 2001 10:37
          To: wwbc@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [wwbc] Re: Photos + itinerary

          For me the issue is not about how many foxes are killed
          in a year (accidents do happen) as much as the nature
          of a fox hunt - a fox is chased for miles, cornered and
          killed by the hounds and the pack.. I am sure that this
          is what people object to most. As for the fox-hunting
          bill being debated during the foot-and-mouth outbreak,
          the nation has to, and can, continue to operate on
          multiple tracks, levels and issues. The business of the
          day has to continue while the people responsible for
          looking after the foot-and-mouth crisis, the rail
          accident, etc, etc, continue to work at those issues.

          On the foot-and-mouth issue, I too cannot see the
          reason behind the large scale slaughter, but remain
          open to the reasons behind doing this, apart from the
          purely economic ones.

          Regards,

          Guru
        • Dougie Rankine
          Dear Dexter, What s yours, informed or otherwise? All the best, Dougie. ... From: Dexter Casey [mailto:Dexter.Casey@msdw.com] Sent: 08 March 2001 11:06 To:
          Message 4 of 24 , Mar 8, 2001
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            Dear Dexter,
            What's yours, informed or otherwise?
            All the best,
            Dougie.

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Dexter Casey [mailto:Dexter.Casey@...]
            Sent: 08 March 2001 11:06
            To: wwbc@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [wwbc] Re: Photos + itinerary

            Keep it coming you guys. This is a very interesting and stimulating
            discussion. Anymore opinions out there? Informed or otherwise?

            Dex
          • Dougie Rankine
            Dear Ben, Sustainability in what, corporate participation, or saving the species? Why bother? What difference does it make? Die rich or die poor? All the
            Message 5 of 24 , Mar 8, 2001
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              Dear Ben,
              Sustainability in what, corporate participation, or saving the species? Why
              bother? What difference does it make? Die rich or die poor?
              All the best,
              Dougie.

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Benjamin H. Rosenbloom [mailto:benjamin@...]
              Sent: 08 March 2001 11:12
              To: wwbc@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [wwbc] Re: Photos + itinerary

              Deep Change and The Next Step both by Quinn are along the lines of what to
              do for corporate participation in a sustainability movement.

              Sustainability seems the only conscious choice we can make for the future of
              our species, yet too often we are blinded to this choice by greed.

              Ben
            • Dougie Rankine
              Dear Adrian, The best huntin , shootin and fishin land in Scotland is owned by the corporates. The most expensive parts of the towns and cities are owned by
              Message 6 of 24 , Mar 8, 2001
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                Dear Adrian,
                The best huntin', shootin' and fishin' land in Scotland is owned by the
                corporates. The most expensive parts of the towns and cities are owned by
                the corporates or by people working for the corporates. They are the new
                landed gentry, they have taken over from the hereditary blood lot's position
                in the hierarchy. Since capitalism took over from feudalism, money has been
                more important than land. Who else should own it, the peasants, the
                workers, the intellectuals, the "people"? One of the big mistakes the
                Soviet Union made was that the people didn't realise how valuable the land
                was until a price was put on it. Human beings are by their very nature,
                hunters, they hunt here, they hunt there, they hunt and hack over computers,
                out in space, on the moon, over rubbish tips, anything you can think of,
                they hunt. Why don't we ban people hunting over rubbish tips, its far more
                dangerous for them and for us, all those diseases and poisons that could be
                passed around. I am not a fox hunter myself, and I couldn't care less
                whether it is banned or supported. How do you stop man's instinct to hunt?
                You can't in my book. What is wrong with his instinct to hunt, perhaps we
                could find that part of the brain and operate on it, or treat it chemically,
                or give them therapy, or do you just feel sorry for the fox?
                All the best,
                Dougie.

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Adrian Jowett [mailto:ajowett@...]
                Sent: 08 March 2001 11:38
                To: 'wwbc@yahoogroups.com'
                Subject: RE: [wwbc] Re: Photos + itinerary

                Elliott
                To comment on the last bit of your little speech, it's not just the farming
                fraternity that push up the price of the land, don't forget our landed
                gentry. The good old hunting, shooting and fishing brigade, who are
                responsible for the management of vast areas of the British countryside so
                that they can sportingly reduce the numbers of our little furred and
                feathered friends.
                I'm not particularly worried about the numbers of foxes in the country,
                they are a nuisance to many people, but more so in towns than the
                countryside as the urban fox population now far outstrips the country one
                (more dustbins to raid?). And of course the birds are generally bred
                specially (it's easier to shoot vast flocks of tame birds than have to take
                aim at a few wild ones flying for cover). The thing that worries me is what
                fox hunting says about the human species. As has been pointed out far more
                animals are killed by cars than hunts, also the idea of foxes in hen houses
                is a little silly considering the vast majority of British hens have never
                been near one in this age of intensive farming. So if it's not an effective
                method of controlling a serious pest problem why do it? Surely people in
                the twenty first century can't enjoy chasing a defenceless animal around
                the country side with the aim of catching it and having their dogs rip it
                to pieces? That would be barbaric! Sadly this would seem to be the case,
                and as I said, it worries me what this says about my fellow man.

                Adrian
              • Dexter Casey
                My uninformed opinion is that Mass production farming is unnatural and damaging to the environment. However you could say the same for Hospitals. You can t
                Message 7 of 24 , Mar 8, 2001
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                  My uninformed opinion is that Mass production farming is unnatural and damaging
                  to the environment. However you could say the same for Hospitals. You can't
                  remove a core function with countless dependencies without causing chaos.
                  Temporary Chaos is a useful change agent, however what would take up the
                  slack? Subsistence farming? There would have to be an awful lot of mobilized
                  country folk available for that or else everything would be taken into
                  management by the government. The government would inevitably privatize and we
                  are back at square one. An alternative is tighter regulation of the farming
                  methods employed today. However all legislation and regulatory procedures are
                  open to corruption so that is not going to be effective either. My opinion is
                  this subject is too complex for my brain to handle. I will jump back on the
                  bench and observe the remainder of the debate that grew out of a discussion
                  about photography enhancing mnemonics!

                  Thanks
                  Dexter

                  Dougie Rankine wrote:

                  > Dear Dexter,
                  > What's yours, informed or otherwise?
                  > All the best,
                  > Dougie.
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Dexter Casey [mailto:Dexter.Casey@...]
                  > Sent: 08 March 2001 11:06
                  > To: wwbc@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [wwbc] Re: Photos + itinerary
                  >
                  > Keep it coming you guys. This is a very interesting and stimulating
                  > discussion. Anymore opinions out there? Informed or otherwise?
                  >
                  > Dex
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe via email: From your email program, send a blank message to:
                  > wwbc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                • Elliott C Bignell
                  Funny how that keeps happening, isn t it? Radiant thinking in real-time. Elliott /////////////////////////////////// My opinion is this subject is too complex
                  Message 8 of 24 , Mar 8, 2001
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                    Funny how that keeps happening, isn't it? Radiant thinking in real-time.

                    Elliott

                    ///////////////////////////////////

                    My opinion is
                    this subject is too complex for my brain to handle. I will jump back on the
                    bench and observe the remainder of the debate that grew out of a discussion
                    about photography enhancing mnemonics!
                  • Dougie Rankine
                    Dear Dexter, I love chaos, but I don t know if I am prepared to go hungry just because someone else loves it. I love change, but only when it is change for
                    Message 9 of 24 , Mar 8, 2001
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                      Dear Dexter,
                      I love chaos, but I don't know if I am prepared to go hungry just because
                      someone else loves it. I love change, but only when it is change for the
                      better, for me. If someone else is prepared" to take up the slack", then
                      fine. I am quite prepared to sit back and watch. I hate these things
                      otherwise. It is far better to have ordered chaos, with minimum effects on
                      others, in particular, oneself, don't you think? However the world ain't
                      like that. There are too many people in love with promoting chaos and its
                      theory without bothering about the consequences of starting it.

                      There is nothing wrong with mass production in farming as long as it is
                      done properly, with due regard to human beings, animals and the environment.
                      Mass production is not "unnatural" it is no more natural than keeping hens
                      in henhouses, or allowing them to be "free range". My dad always reckons
                      that I was invented. When I asked him where I came from, he said that I was
                      a "glee in his ee'" a product of human artifice, an invention in his mind's
                      eye, which he communicated to my mother, by other than verbal means. He had
                      a vivid imagination. Is art natural, or artifice? Informed opinion is
                      always better than uninformed opinion, don't you think? One should never
                      sit on the fence, it is very uncomfortable on one's bottom.
                      All the best,
                      Dougie.

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Dexter Casey [mailto:Dexter.Casey@...]
                      Sent: 08 March 2001 14:35
                      To: wwbc@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [wwbc] Re: Photos + itinerary

                      My uninformed opinion is that Mass production farming is unnatural and
                      damaging
                      to the environment. However you could say the same for Hospitals. You
                      can't
                      remove a core function with countless dependencies without causing chaos.
                      Temporary Chaos is a useful change agent, however what would take up the
                      slack? Subsistence farming? There would have to be an awful lot of
                      mobilized
                      country folk available for that or else everything would be taken into
                      management by the government. The government would inevitably privatize and
                      we
                      are back at square one. An alternative is tighter regulation of the farming
                      methods employed today. However all legislation and regulatory procedures
                      are
                      open to corruption so that is not going to be effective either. My opinion
                      is
                      this subject is too complex for my brain to handle. I will jump back on the
                      bench and observe the remainder of the debate that grew out of a discussion
                      about photography enhancing mnemonics!

                      Thanks
                      Dexter
                    • Dougie Rankine
                      Dear Elliot, Now, that was very funny! It had me laughing me socks off. All the best, Dougie. ... From: Elliott C Bignell
                      Message 10 of 24 , Mar 8, 2001
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                        Dear Elliot,
                        Now, that was very funny! It had me laughing me socks off.
                        All the best,
                        Dougie.

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Elliott C Bignell [mailto:elliott_c_bignell@...-elmer.com]
                        Sent: 08 March 2001 14:49
                        To: wwbc@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [wwbc] Re: Photos + itinerary


                        Funny how that keeps happening, isn't it? Radiant thinking in real-time.

                        Elliott

                        ///////////////////////////////////

                        My opinion is
                        this subject is too complex for my brain to handle. I will jump back on the
                        bench and observe the remainder of the debate that grew out of a discussion
                        about photography enhancing mnemonics!
                      • George Wade
                        We have some organic farmers here in Kochi - a rebellious part of Japan. They are planning to spread their technology to Asia so that the rich people may have
                        Message 11 of 24 , Mar 8, 2001
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                          We have some organic farmers here in Kochi - a rebellious part of Japan. They are planning to spread their technology to Asia so that the rich people may have a choice of unpolluted food. The idea is purely practical: in time it will spread downwards to the middle and poorer classes.

                          If they started with people who cannot afford it it would never get anywhere. If they try too seriously in Japan, only, there just isn't enough arable land between the mountains to feed many people so the idea doesn't go very far here. But the development goes on.

                          The ideas you've all expressed are important enough to MindMap by people who understand the technology and social structures. I know that argument will simply keep us in the past and present, all too efficiently.

                          George,
                          Kochi

                          On March 09 2001, Elliott C Bignell <elliott_c_bignell@...-elmer.com> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >Funny how that keeps happening, isn't it? Radiant thinking in real-time.
                          >
                          >Elliott
                          >
                          >///////////////////////////////////
                          >
                          >My opinion is
                          >this subject is too complex for my brain to handle. I will jump back on the
                          >bench and observe the remainder of the debate that grew out of a discussion
                          >about photography enhancing mnemonics!
                        • Dougie Rankine
                          Dear George, It is interesting how these changes take place. Radiant thinking through time, generations and classes. In late Victorian England when the
                          Message 12 of 24 , Mar 9, 2001
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                            Dear George,
                            It is interesting how these changes take place. Radiant thinking through
                            time, generations and classes. In late Victorian England when the middle
                            and upper classes used to retire to the South Coast, Brighton and so on, a
                            new white bread was developed, completely devoid of everything but starch.
                            This white bread was very expensive and therefore only available to those
                            with the money. The working classes were eating the "raw" stuff. As time
                            went by, the fashion crept down through to the lower classes until it
                            reached the bottom. Now it is the middle classes who tend to eat the
                            organic, the wholemeal bread and the so called "nutritious" foods and it is
                            the working classes who do the fry ups. One can't put it all down to class
                            of course, I have seen many a teacher and middle class person in McDonald's
                            after school, but this is something that isn't generally talked about in
                            Elizabethan England of today. It is definitely "Non U"!
                            All the best,
                            Dougie.

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: George Wade [mailto:geogwade@...]
                            Sent: 09 March 2001 01:26
                            To: wwbc@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [wwbc] Re: Photos + itinerary

                            We have some organic farmers here in Kochi - a rebellious part of Japan.
                            They are planning to spread their technology to Asia so that the rich people
                            may have a choice of unpolluted food. The idea is purely practical: in time
                            it will spread downwards to the middle and poorer classes.

                            If they started with people who cannot afford it it would never get
                            anywhere. If they try too seriously in Japan, only, there just isn't enough
                            arable land between the mountains to feed many people so the idea doesn't go
                            very far here. But the development goes on.

                            The ideas you've all expressed are important enough to MindMap by people who
                            understand the technology and social structures. I know that argument will
                            simply keep us in the past and present, all too efficiently.

                            George,
                            Kochi

                            On March 09 2001, Elliott C Bignell <elliott_c_bignell@...-elmer.com>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >Funny how that keeps happening, isn't it? Radiant thinking in real-time.
                            >
                            >Elliott
                            >
                            >///////////////////////////////////
                            >
                            >My opinion is
                            >this subject is too complex for my brain to handle. I will jump back on
                            the
                            >bench and observe the remainder of the debate that grew out of a discussion
                            >about photography enhancing mnemonics!




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