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Re: [wwbc] Re:PI (what is worth remembering)

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  • cmartin336@aol.com
    Hi John, to be a bit more specific: I use the normal study methods, like browsing a study text, taking notes, preparing a concept or a mindmap. Formulate
    Message 1 of 21 , Feb 1 12:11 AM
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      Hi John,


      to be a bit more specific:

      I use the normal study methods, like browsing a study text, taking notes, preparing a concept or a mindmap. Formulate questions and doing repetitions, using the flashcard method of Leitner, which I have made the experience is very useful. This method helps me to do the book keeping of the needed repetitions.

      I apply mnemonic methods only, if there are some facts, like historical data for instance, which are not easy to memorise with these methods, after having done some repetitions.

      For me there is no need to memorise everything, like phone numbers and daily life stuff. A pencil and a piece of paper is all I need for it.

      What is good and easy to use is the Roman room method or journey method, for instance, when I do give a report, it is helpful to remember all items, about which I intend to speak. But using an overhead even that is not really needed.

      What is important for me, is to remember the methods, with which one can solve problems. And for that mnemonics is not helpful, only training. One has to solve a lot of problems. By doing it, one remembers them automatically. Like mathematical or physical formulas. If you understand the formulas and if you apply them for some time, you remember them.

      And to remember physical constants to several figures is not really needed, because it depends on the target of the calculations, how many figures are needed and make sense and then I just look them up or I have them available in an algebra software program like Maple anyway.

      regards

      Claus




      -----Ursprüngliche Mitteilung-----
      Von: jfm1061@...
      An: wwbc@yahoogroups.com
      Verschickt: Do., 1.Feb.2007, 4:39
      Thema: Re: [wwbc] Re:PI (what is worth remembering)


      The thing about mnemomics it that it is not new, and for the most part not
      special. Most people can come up with some kind of way to remember something,
      if thay take the time to do so. The question I ask you and all the member of
      the group is "How do you make use of these skills in real life?" I will not
      pretend to have the answer. From the first day I learned to develop a trained
      memory, I have been looking for ways to use it. The time spent pegging and
      linking has been fun. The memory skills that I have, make me appear to be a
      genius. But I am not. The skills I have make people think I have special
      powers, but I have none. What I do have is what all of us have: a super
      computer in my head. I just know how to work the software. Sometimes I make
      mistakes, but that is okay. It is how I learn.

      Maybe the memory books you have are not realistic. Perhaps the technics are
      too "over the top" to master. Or maybe you are looking too deeply into a
      simple skill that is ment to just help, not cure a condition. There are many
      roads to the same distination, mnemomics are just one of many routes.

      Take care,
      John

      cmartin336@... wrote:
      Hi John,

      the funny thing is, that all books about mnemonics just stop, after they have
      presented the technics, but they don´t go on to show, how useful information is
      memorised with these technics.

      regards

      Claus


      -----Ursprüngliche Mitteilung-----
      Von: jfm1061@...
      An: wwbc@yahoogroups.com
      Verschickt: Mi., 31.Jan.2007, 20:34
      Thema: Re: [wwbc] Re:PI (what is worth remembering)

      I think you are right. It is nice to be able to remember PI to 10,000 digits,
      but what is it going to do for your life? There are many who love to remember
      what I call "useless information". This is a short list the things I consider
      useless information: Names of all the states and their capitals, the numeral
      order of the alphabet, what was served to Harry Potter at the first feast, names

      of Oscar winners of best picture, actor, actress or director. The winning words
      of the last 20 spelling bees. The list goes on and on. What I strive to do is
      learn information that is useful, and than create a list of keywords that bring
      the information back to my recollection. That to my way of thinking, is a good
      use of the skills we work so hard to master.

      John

      cmartin336@... wrote:
      These are questions, which one should really think a bit about.

      We live at a time, at which many people are very interested to get our money and

      they they are doing their best, to influence us.

      All this hunting for records is nonsense. It is not good for your health and you

      waste too much time and you neglect to develop your other abilities.

      One should analyse, why one is doing it. Does one really want to do it for
      oneself. Would one do it, if nobody else would be aware it ? Or is one dependent

      on the applause from others ?

      The example to memorise pi to thousands of digits:

      Would it not be more senseful to use the time and improve ones education ? Would

      anybody memorise pi, if there would not exist world championships or the guiness

      book of records ?

      We have limited resources only and we should carefully think about, that we use
      them wisely and not waste them, like at car racings for instance.

      But I doubt, that we will change our behaviour. It is very difficulty for a
      person to get wise and perhaps impossible for the majority of people. But at
      least we should be critical with what we are told by others.

      regards

      Claus

      -----Ursprüngliche Mitteilung-----
      Von: voigt@...
      An: wwbc@yahoogroups.com
      Verschickt: Di., 30.Jan.2007, 18:48
      Thema: [wwbc] Re:PI

      Good question. And what about running 100 m, or 10,000 m, or

      swimming butterfly 200 m, or doing speed cards, or formula 1 racing,

      etc. etc.

      who benefits from that? And is all that really so much fun?

      And why just put this good question only when confronted with

      something new?

      U.V.

      www.likanas.de

      --- In wwbc@yahoogroups.com, "Igor Karpov" <karpov.igor@...> wrote:

      >

      > Sorry to be a party-pooper, but who benefits from this? Is it

      really that

      > much fun?

      >

      >

      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      Also see the collabarative Mentat Wiki at http://ludism.org/mentat for

      information on how to become a better thinker.

      Yahoo! Groups Links

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      mailto:wwbc-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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      Yahoo! Groups Links

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    • Igor Karpov
      To U.V. All the things you list - running 100 m, or 10,000 m, or swimming butterfly 200 m, or doing speed cards*(sic),* or formula 1 racing are sports, and
      Message 2 of 21 , Feb 1 5:43 AM
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        To U.V.

        All the things you list - 'running 100 m, or 10,000 m, or swimming butterfly
        200 m, or doing speed cards*(sic),* or formula 1 racing' are sports, and
        physical ones, at that. They are good for physical health, if done the right
        way. I can see how they can be fun to watch for many. But what about
        memorizing PI? I can only compare it to 'Stupid Human Tricks', or some such.
        Am I wrong? It won't be the first time. :)

        BTW, my purpose is not to criticise, but to stimulate an interesting
        discussion

        All the best.

        Igor


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • mnempi
        To Igor! ... Yes, no doubt, and so is Pi-permutation. ... I answer that the distinction between physical sport and mental sport is not quite as clear as you
        Message 3 of 21 , Feb 1 2:03 PM
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          To Igor!

          >All the things you list ... are sports<

          Yes, no doubt, and so is Pi-permutation.

          >... and physical ones, at that.<

          I answer that the distinction between physical sport and mental
          sport is not quite as clear as you seem to suggest. Indeed these two
          matters overlap. Running 100m has a serious mental side, which might
          be more decisive for the success of the participant than a naive
          spectator might perhaps imagine. On the other hand, doing something
          like p(N=5,000, n=2, k=2,500) or participating in a chess tournament
          has a considerable physical aspect, which again affects the
          success of the participant.

          >They are good for physical health, if done the right way.<

          Well, what does this mean to say: "if done the right way." I hope,
          it does not mean: "if done without much ambition", because this
          would derive the matter of its main characteristic as a sport. Now I
          do doubt that running 100m seriously over a long time and with the
          aim to reach a "record", or even to reach one`s own limits, is going
          to be so very healthy. Just look at the professional 100m runners,
          how they deform themselves by concentrated 100m-muscles. Will this
          be good to keep a healthy heart? I have my doubts.
          So, without any hesitation I add: "Pi-sports is good for mental
          health, if done the right way."

          >I can see how they can be fun to watch for many. But what about
          memorizing PI?<

          Well, "the pleasure of the many" is a difficult category to argue
          with. And, though you certainly are right in this, that a 100 m
          sprint offers much more to the eyes than a production of a sequence
          of numbers, still the latter is not without its charm, if properly
          arranged. When I produced p(N=5,000, n=2, k=2,500) in 2002, I sat in
          the audience hall of Matthias-Claudius-Gymnasium in Hamburg, and all
          the numbers produced were made instantly visible on a screen, each
          cipher having its own colour. So the black screen got gradually
          filled with coloured spots untill it was totally filled. And this
          was much appreciated by the onlooking pupils (not, by the way by the
          adult teachers, who saw no use in the matter, being much too wise
          for that childish endeavour). On www.likanas.de > Pi you may find a
          photo of the event.

          Now to the essential questions.

          "What is the use of the matter?"

          -To test methods, which is inevitably important for the
          mnemotechnician,
          -To train endurance in concentration,
          -to train the imagination to handle complex images with some facility

          "Where is the pleasure?"

          -The pleasure is with the participant himself, as he goes around his
          own fine memory palace, which he always likes to re-visit.
          -And, the pleasure is to test and develop one`s own reactions.

          If you are in doubt of this, I advise you to try it out yourself in
          the following way:
          Memorize the frst 10 digits of PI: 1415926535. This should not do
          you any harm.
          Then just download the Pi software on www.likanas.de > Pi, where
          CONDITIONS will lead you to
          LAYOUT I: enter N=10, n=1, k=10, lines=10, columns=1,
          columns by column = yes, by chance=yes,
          LAYOUT II: put Numbers of digits = Divide total number
          = Positions = Blocks = Regions = 1, Absolute Position = yes,
          FONT & COLOURS: choose Pending question = red, and open
          question = green, and bold = yes, and font size = 14,
          MODUS: choose contest = yes , and max Number = 1,
          DATA: choose calculate digits = yes, and S = 1,
          then SAVE the matter, say ACCEPT = yes, START CONTEST = yes, enter
          your name or simply say o.k., and here you are in front of your
          first p (N=10, n=1, k=10).
          Have pleasure! Or rather: Try to avoid saying: "Wow". And then
          feel free to say aloud: "What is the use of this?"

          "Why waste your time with useless things? This will inevitably
          impede you to do something useful, something essential!"

          But I claim to do essential innovative work as an
          historian at the same time, as you will (hopefully) admit, if you
          read my books about mnemonics, and if you will read the book I will
          publish this year on Francesco Bianchini, or in the next years on
          the origins of Christian chronology. The point is, that in fact
          memorising Pi, helps me to keep moving.

          "Why did I invent the sport of Pi-permutation?"

          -Because I wanted to create some competition in Pi mnemonics which
          really and without restriction deserves the name of "sport".
          -Because I wanted to confront the memory sporting people with a
          serious problem. I imagined that they, who claimed to be the best
          memorizers, would be in a difficulty to complete a Pi-permutation
          over a considerable distance. In oher words: That they would not be
          able to do better that I do without changing their methods
          considerably. And look: From 2002 to the present day only one
          mnemonist has stood up to challenge me, viz. Rüdiger Gamm, who has
          very uncommon abilities. Of course for me, being a mnemotechnician,
          that is to say, a person who tries seriously to construct prope
          technique to mentally master subject matters, this is very
          comfortable.

          U.V.



          --- In wwbc@yahoogroups.com, "Igor Karpov" <karpov.igor@...> wrote:
          >
          > To U.V.
          >
          > All the things you list - 'running 100 m, or 10,000 m, or swimming
          butterfly 200 m, or doing speed cards*(sic),* or formula 1 racing'
          are sports, and physical ones, at that. They are good for physical
          health, if done the right way. I can see how they can be fun to
          watch for many. But what about memorizing PI? I can only compare it
          to 'Stupid Human Tricks', or some such.
          Am I wrong? It won't be the first time. :)

          BTW, my purpose is not to criticise, but to stimulate an interesting
          discussion

          > All the best.
          >
          > Igor
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Luis Osorio
          Hi mnempi, Does your book Mnemotechnik come with english translation? Regards lmc ... _________________________________________________________________ Express
          Message 4 of 21 , Feb 2 4:43 AM
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            Hi mnempi,

            Does your book Mnemotechnik come with english translation?

            Regards

            lmc

            >But I claim to do essential innovative work as an
            >historian at the same time, as you will (hopefully) admit, if you
            >read my books about mnemonics, and if you will read the book I will
            >publish this year on Francesco Bianchini, or in the next years on
            >the origins of Christian chronology. The point is, that in fact
            >memorising Pi, helps me to keep moving.
            >

            _________________________________________________________________
            Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE!
            http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
          • mnempi
            Unfortunately not. U.V. ... will ... FREE!
            Message 5 of 21 , Feb 2 7:45 AM
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              Unfortunately not.

              U.V.

              --- In wwbc@yahoogroups.com, "Luis Osorio" <lmcosorio@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi mnempi,
              >
              > Does your book Mnemotechnik come with english translation?
              >
              > Regards
              >
              > lmc
              >
              > >But I claim to do essential innovative work as an
              > >historian at the same time, as you will (hopefully) admit, if you
              > >read my books about mnemonics, and if you will read the book I
              will
              > >publish this year on Francesco Bianchini, or in the next years on
              > >the origins of Christian chronology. The point is, that in fact
              > >memorising Pi, helps me to keep moving.
              > >
              >
              > _________________________________________________________________
              > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's
              FREE!
              > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
              >
            • U. Lacivert
              Hi Claus, Most of us are, in one way or another, dependent on the applause of others. Social approval is key to the social life. I very well understand your
              Message 6 of 21 , Feb 2 4:53 PM
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                Hi Claus,

                Most of us are, in one way or another, dependent on the applause of
                others. Social approval is key to the social life.

                I very well understand your criticism about the way we use
                resources, but the most destructive government types in the history
                sprang out by this very idea. Freedom of choice is crucial.

                We like to filter human activities as useful and not useful, but I
                think this is not how we should look at human and human nature.
                Anything we do is part of us and as a whole it forms our cultures.
                In short, one man's garbage is another man's art.

                Cheers,
                Umut


                --- In wwbc@yahoogroups.com, cmartin336@... wrote:
                >
                > These are questions, which one should really think a bit about.
                >
                > We live at a time, at which many people are very interested to
                get our money and they they are doing their best, to influence us.
                >
                > All this hunting for records is nonsense. It is not good for your
                health and you waste too much time and you neglect to develop your
                other abilities.
                >
                > One should analyse, why one is doing it. Does one really want to
                do it for oneself. Would one do it, if nobody else would be aware
                it ? Or is one dependent on the applause from others ?
                >
                > The example to memorise pi to thousands of digits:
                >
                > Would it not be more senseful to use the time and improve ones
                education ? Would anybody memorise pi, if there would not exist
                world championships or the guiness book of records ?
                >
                > We have limited resources only and we should carefully think
                about, that we use them wisely and not waste them, like at car
                racings for instance.
                >
                > But I doubt, that we will change our behaviour. It is very
                difficulty for a person to get wise and perhaps impossible for the
                majority of people. But at least we should be critical with what we
                are told by others.
                >
                > regards
                >
                > Claus
              • Aldo
                Hi John Yes most books are pretty much misleading. They push genius, but deliver bugger all. I find it irritating. It sells but its unreasonable. There are
                Message 7 of 21 , Mar 18, 2007
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                  Hi John

                  Yes most books are pretty much misleading. They push genius, but
                  deliver bugger all. I find it irritating. It sells but its unreasonable.

                  There are exceptions. Take a book such as Higbee,K, Your memory and
                  how to use it. It gives a pretty good account of the legitimacy of
                  mnemonics. Also, look at how psych education books deal with
                  mnemonics. Fairly practically!

                  But I believe it can go much further. You have to understand
                  psychology pretty well though.

                  Visual mnemonics are good examples of learning strategies (the more
                  the better so don't restrict to the visual - abstract is just as
                  important).

                  The practical value of mnemonics is in its ability to give you a more
                  flexible grasp of imagery. So when you read a passage you will know
                  how better to treat the imagery. Not so as to place pegs and absurdity
                  everywhere, but just how to focus on imagery to help you learn,
                  remember, and communicate what you deal with. It can also help convey
                  the principle of being systematic about learning strategies.

                  Mnemonics are a great example of learning strategies. Practicing them
                  gives you a working knowledge of how imagery works while you learn.

                  How does it transfer?

                  Not particularly automatically. Just through mindful application of
                  principles, rather than techniques. So yes, if your mental framework
                  of learning is based around method of loci, link system, and so on,
                  then you will not be encouraged to flexibility/adaptability. But the
                  principles and theories can help you work flexibly (eg, dual coding,
                  interactive imagery, connecting new with old in the most flexible ways
                  possible, using multiple representations etc).

                  Learning PI can be one (game-like) way of exploring how imagery works
                  in relation to learning. Nobody is forcing anyone else to do it.

                  Perhaps a more obviously practical example - when you sit in the
                  coffee shop in the morning reading the news, you can skim over it all
                  and let it go. Or you can notice the concrete scenarios being
                  described to you, be more aware of the placement of people and
                  buildings in the descriptions, and use that imagery to help you learn
                  and understand what you are reading. You might even be more aware of
                  the sequence of actions in the story.

                  These are really only options for you as long as you are aware of the
                  principles. Practicing actively interacting images probably helps. But
                  its how you put the whole lot together that matters.

                  Aldo



                  --- In wwbc@yahoogroups.com, John Morrison <jfm1061@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > The thing about mnemomics it that it is not new, and for the most
                  part not special. Most people can come up with some kind of way to
                  remember something, if thay take the time to do so. The question I
                  ask you an
                • mnempi
                  On this years PI-day in Berlin the only new record was: p ( N=5000, n=2, k=100 ) in 7 m 6,03 s. U.V.
                  Message 8 of 21 , Mar 19, 2007
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                    On this years PI-day in Berlin the only new record was:
                    p ( N=5000, n=2, k=100 ) in 7 m 6,03 s.

                    U.V.
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