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Re: Mr J Strong

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  • lizandrews333
    George Wade and Jon Upton You should be ashamed of yourselves! The only conclusion this unidentified lurker can come to is that Buzan Licenced Instructors
    Message 1 of 28 , Nov 30, 2003
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      George Wade and Jon Upton

      You should be ashamed of yourselves! The only conclusion this
      unidentified "lurker" can come to is that Buzan Licenced Instructors
      will not tolerate questions concerning their methods.

      You side-step the most relevant questions about learning to learn,
      and team up to push out and junk-email a valuable (albeit direct)
      member. The questions shared were on target, polite to non-BLIs, and
      helpful to learners. You want to censor them!

      Whether you are aware of it or not, you do consistently sell on this
      group. I have been doing some checking---Your books are misleading!
      You show no respect!

      I leave this Buzan convention disappointed
      Elizabeth Andrews



      Learning to learn
      Australia






      --- In wwbc@yahoogroups.com, GeorgeWade <georgewade1@m...> wrote:
      > Jon,
      >
      > I feel sorry for Jay - and feel that he is bright. He probably has
      got
      > something brilliant to share... but nobody in the world will
      benefit
      > from it till he learns to be respectful of any group he joins and
      then
      > of himself.
      >
      > Back to enjoying the Mnemonists, that I am just beginning to
      understand.
      >
      > George
      >
      > On Sunday, November 30, 2003, at 07:38 AM, Jon Upton wrote:
      >
      > > Mr Strong
      > >
      > > Again you prove yourself to be a prat
      > >
      > > Play with your own middle wicket as you seem to enjoy it
      > >
      > > I have alongside George awarded you the 'go to Junk E-mail card'
      > >
      > > I trust that at some stage in the near future our good and kind
      > > moderator
      > > will relieve the wwbc community of your endless drivel
      > >
      > > good bye
      > >
      > > Jon
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • GeorgeWade
      The full message is at I don t want to quote the whole thing: copyright! Maybe thinking is changing - slowly On a recent trip to
      Message 2 of 28 , Nov 30, 2003
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        The full message is at <http://www.edwdebono.com/> I don't want to
        quote the whole thing: copyright!

        Maybe thinking is changing - slowly

        On a recent trip to Australia for an Economics Advisory Board Meeting,
        I was told by one of the Board members that as a young man he had read
        one of my books. This had changed his thinking - and as a result he
        had won a Nobel prize.......
        Nor is it a matter of traditional logic and analysis. Those things
        remain an important part of thinking - but there is much more. For
        example ninety per cent of the errors in thinking are errors of
        perception (David Perkins). Sadly, traditional education systems are
        so very far behind. I was recently appointed visitng Professor of
        creative thinking at the University of Central England (Birmingham).
        Maybe things are changing - slowly.

        Edward de Bono nmt
        29th November 2003


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Rob Carder
        George et al, As I stated in my earlier (and only) mail re: J Strong, he is attention seeking and controversy provoking. These people are best dealt with by
        Message 3 of 28 , Dec 1, 2003
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          George et al,

          As I stated in my earlier (and only) mail re: J Strong, he is attention seeking and controversy provoking. These people are best dealt with by being ignored. Please let this be the last post on this forum that is wasted on him.

          Rob

          GeorgeWade <georgewade1@...> wrote:
          Jon,

          I feel sorry for Jay - and feel that he is bright. He probably has got
          something brilliant to share... but nobody in the world will benefit
          from it till he learns to be respectful of any group he joins and then
          of himself.

          Back to enjoying the Mnemonists, that I am just beginning to understand.

          George

          On Sunday, November 30, 2003, at 07:38 AM, Jon Upton wrote:

          > Mr Strong
          >
          > Again you prove yourself to be a prat
          >
          > Play with your own middle wicket as you seem to enjoy it
          >
          > I have alongside George awarded you the 'go to Junk E-mail card'
          >
          > I trust that at some stage in the near future our good and kind
          > moderator
          > will relieve the wwbc community of your endless drivel
          >
          > good bye
          >
          > Jon

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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        • Jon Upton
          Dear Elizabeth I think you perhaps should review Mr Strongs postings Why should we put up with personal attacks from an individual Was he valueable? when asked
          Message 4 of 28 , Dec 1, 2003
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            Dear Elizabeth

            I think you perhaps should review Mr Strongs postings

            Why should we put up with personal attacks from an individual

            Was he valueable? when asked to substantiate or explain his claims he just
            wrote rubbish back

            Of course we sell on this group - we believe, we are passionate - we all
            sell ourselves and our beliefs everyday of our lives

            If you look back over the past postings in the archive you will find that
            most of us including myself and George will do anything we can to help
            people

            We learnt many years ago that 'givers gain'

            We have the right to personal censorship I only suggested the moderator
            remove Mr Strong when his postings became personal and offensive

            As I stated in my past posting to Mr Strong I advise anybody to take the
            parts of Tony's work they find useful and mould them to fit their needs - I
            don't agree with everything he (Tony) says

            You are falling into the same category as Mr Strong you make a wild
            statement that Mr Buzan's books are misleading but you do not say in what
            way or how you can substantiate your claim

            With regard to respect I respect everybodys right to hold an opinion I just
            ask that they to respect my right to challenge that opinion

            If you are interested in Mind Mapping and don't want to believe the work of
            Tony may I suggest you read the book Mapwise by Oliver Caviglioli and Ian
            Harris isbn 1-85539-059-0 www.networkpress.co.uk

            Please don't leave the group on my account I honestly believe that there is
            much to gain from being a member of the wwbc

            Kind regards on a very wet UK morning

            Jon Upton



            _____

            From: lizandrews333 [mailto:LizAndrews333@...]
            Sent: 01 December 2003 03:13
            To: wwbc@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [wwbc] Re: Mr J Strong


            George Wade and Jon Upton

            You should be ashamed of yourselves! The only conclusion this
            unidentified "lurker" can come to is that Buzan Licenced Instructors
            will not tolerate questions concerning their methods.

            You side-step the most relevant questions about learning to learn,
            and team up to push out and junk-email a valuable (albeit direct)
            member. The questions shared were on target, polite to non-BLIs, and
            helpful to learners. You want to censor them!

            Whether you are aware of it or not, you do consistently sell on this
            group. I have been doing some checking---Your books are misleading!
            You show no respect!

            I leave this Buzan convention disappointed
            Elizabeth Andrews



            Learning to learn
            Australia






            --- In wwbc@yahoogroups.com, GeorgeWade <georgewade1@m...> wrote:
            > Jon,
            >
            > I feel sorry for Jay - and feel that he is bright. He probably has
            got
            > something brilliant to share... but nobody in the world will
            benefit
            > from it till he learns to be respectful of any group he joins and
            then
            > of himself.
            >
            > Back to enjoying the Mnemonists, that I am just beginning to
            understand.
            >
            > George
            >
            > On Sunday, November 30, 2003, at 07:38 AM, Jon Upton wrote:
            >
            > > Mr Strong
            > >
            > > Again you prove yourself to be a prat
            > >
            > > Play with your own middle wicket as you seem to enjoy it
            > >
            > > I have alongside George awarded you the 'go to Junk E-mail card'
            > >
            > > I trust that at some stage in the near future our good and kind
            > > moderator
            > > will relieve the wwbc community of your endless drivel
            > >
            > > good bye
            > >
            > > Jon
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • cmartin336@aol.com
            In einer eMail vom 30.11.03 15:22:45 (MEZ) Mitteleuropäische Zeit schreibt ... Jay: When confronted with the 1% brain useage fact , for example, one can go
            Message 5 of 28 , Dec 1, 2003
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              In einer eMail vom 30.11.03 15:22:45 (MEZ) Mitteleuropäische Zeit schreibt
              jstrong714@...:


              > When confronted with the 1% brain useage "fact", for example, one can
              > go "wow! so I should buy this book then!" or more sensibly "Pull the
              > middle one mate, you think I'm dumb or what!".

              Jay:

              "When confronted with the 1% brain useage "fact", for example, one can
              go "wow! so I should buy this book then!" or more sensibly "Pull the
              middle one mate, you think I'm dumb or what!".

              ############

              Jay,

              I oftenly have read, that we use only 10% of our potential brain power and
              that this should have been told by Einstein.

              Up to now I never could find out, if Einstein has made such a remark. If he
              should have done it, then it was probably only a humorous remark and a crude
              estimate in the sense of "order of magnitude".

              I doubt, that anybody was able up to now to make a reliable investigation,
              how powerful our brain really is.

              But we can make an estimate ourselves, what could be possible:

              The main problem perhaps is not the training of our brain, but just the time
              we have available to train it.

              I we live 100 year and we spend each day 10 hours only for learning, then we
              would have available 100*365*10 hours for learning.

              That are 365 000 hours

              Lets assume, that we use the best methods and even are able to memorise each
              page of text, which we read and that we can master 10 pager of texts, full of
              information and with minimal redundance, then we can memorise:

              3 650 000 pages of text.

              That would be 3 650 books, each 1000 pages ( may study books have about
              1000 pages ).

              Or 100 encyclopedias.

              Does that estimate really give us a maximal limit for the capacity of our
              brain ?

              Not really, because with it we totally neglected, that we also have to learn
              to walk, to speak, to develop social abilities etc.

              And it could be, that we need very much of our brain capacity, just to learn
              these very important abilities.

              I assume, that this is the case. During our evolution learning in the sence
              of studying a topic has been done only for some thousand years and that
              means, that the development of our brain has been driven by other causes.

              My personal consequence is, just to assume, that I have much more potential
              brain capacity for learning, which ever I will have time in my life to use.
              If I use only 10% or 1% is irrelevant for me, if I have not time to use more.

              regards
              Claus




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • cmartin336@aol.com
              In einer eMail vom 01.12.03 03:25:33 (MEZ) Mitteleuropäische Zeit schreibt ... George, this demonstrates a bit the value of the 6 hats method of de Bono. You
              Message 6 of 28 , Dec 1, 2003
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                In einer eMail vom 01.12.03 03:25:33 (MEZ) Mitteleuropäische Zeit schreibt
                georgewade1@...:


                > Jon,
                >
                > I feel sorry for Jay - and feel that he is bright. He probably has got
                > something brilliant to share... but nobody in the world will benefit
                > from it till he learns to be respectful of any group he joins and then
                > of himself.
                >
                > Back to enjoying the Mnemonists, that I am just beginning to understand.
                >
                > George
                >
                George,

                this demonstrates a bit the value of the 6 hats method of de Bono.
                You always find people, who are focused too much onto one way of thinking.
                Some people are too critical or cynical, others are too optimistic etc.
                It is difficutly to develop a harmonized personality and I assume, that many
                ingredients are needed:
                - good parents and family life
                - excellent teachers
                - a wide variety of possibilities to learn and experience
                - being interested in many different topics like: fine arts, music,
                literature, natural sciences, hand craft etc.

                My experience is, that people, who are focused only onto one subject oftenly
                develop a disturbed personality. You can find that with the mathematician
                Gödel for instance and many of other famous people, but of course also with the
                normal average people.

                Therefore one should avoid to focus only on one subject, but take enough
                time also for other activities.

                The pity is, that those people, who would benefit a lot from it, are not
                willing to give it a try.

                regards

                Claus


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Nicholas Montpetit
                ... Instructors ... and ... Hi Elizabeth, I couldn t agree more with your assessment of the treatment of Jay in this group. Up to this point I ve also been a
                Message 7 of 28 , Dec 1, 2003
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                  --- In wwbc@yahoogroups.com, "lizandrews333" <LizAndrews333@h...>
                  wrote:
                  > George Wade and Jon Upton
                  >
                  > You should be ashamed of yourselves! The only conclusion this
                  > unidentified "lurker" can come to is that Buzan Licenced
                  Instructors
                  > will not tolerate questions concerning their methods.
                  >
                  > You side-step the most relevant questions about learning to learn,
                  > and team up to push out and junk-email a valuable (albeit direct)
                  > member. The questions shared were on target, polite to non-BLIs,
                  and
                  > helpful to learners. You want to censor them!

                  Hi Elizabeth,

                  I couldn't agree more with your assessment of the treatment of Jay in
                  this group. Up to this point I've also been a lurker, but it's time
                  for me to risk attack and state that Jay's questions -- if actually
                  answered -- would be very useful to somebody who is trying to learn
                  more about the techniques covered in this group.

                  Time for me to leave,

                  -Nick
                • GeorgeWade
                  ... This is one of the more tolerant groups on the net. Many other moderators would have terminated Jay after the 2nd attack. Ian is to be commended for his
                  Message 8 of 28 , Dec 1, 2003
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                    On Sunday, November 30, 2003, at 07:13 PM, lizandrews333 wrote:

                    > George Wade and Jon Upton
                    >
                    > You should be ashamed of yourselves!  The only conclusion this
                    > unidentified "lurker" can come to is that Buzan Licenced Instructors
                    > will not tolerate questions concerning their methods.

                    This is one of the more tolerant groups on the net. Many other
                    moderators would have
                    'terminated' Jay after the 2nd attack. Ian is to be commended for his
                    patience.

                    > You side-step the most relevant questions about learning to learn,
                    > and team up to push out and junk-email a valuable (albeit direct)
                    > member.  The questions shared were on target, polite to non-BLIs, and
                    > helpful to learners.  You want to censor them!

                    I did not want to censor questions: that would be up to the moderator.
                    I wanted to let
                    Jay know that I'd not listen to his attacks. We did start by answering
                    Jay's questions, too.

                    None of the Buzan licensed instructors on the WWBC even sign themselves
                    "BLI" in
                    postings. You begin to make me ashamed of my modesty!

                    >  Whether you are aware of it or not, you do consistently sell on this
                    > group.  I have been doing some checking---Your books are misleading! 
                    > You show no respect!

                    There are some questions worth exploring about why some people have
                    been incredibly
                    successful and some not at all with Buzan Trek. We could not explore
                    that while Jay was
                    being so abusive.

                    About 60% of the people in the middle get good average results from
                    Buzan Trek. What
                    would you say, Linda? Good average or very good average results?

                    I have never been able to make much use of Edward de Bono's very
                    powerful thinking
                    tools. I know why and have just started to Mind Map them. I have never
                    attacked people
                    or ideas on de Bono's conferences. That is not the way to learn
                    anything.

                    Attacks on de Bono's 'Creative Team' would only last for ten seconds
                    after the moderators
                    noticed them. That is another way of handling email groups.

                    > I leave this Buzan convention disappointed

                    We can't satisfy everbody, Elizabeth, but this group does try hard.

                    George
                    signing 'Buzan licensed instructor' for once...


                    > Elizabeth Andrews
                    > Learning to learn
                    > Australia


                    > --- In wwbc@yahoogroups.com, GeorgeWade <georgewade1@m...> wrote:
                    > > Jon,
                    > >
                    > > I feel sorry for Jay - and feel that he is bright. He probably has
                    > got
                    > > something brilliant to share...  but nobody in the world will
                    > benefit
                    > > from it till he learns to be respectful of any group he joins and
                    > then
                    > > of himself.
                    > >
                    > > Back to enjoying the Mnemonists, that I am just beginning to
                    > understand.
                    > >
                    > > George

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • cmartin336@aol.com
                    In einer eMail vom 02.12.03 14:58:16 (MEZ) Mitteleuropäische Zeit schreibt ... Hi Unmut, it looks like, that we all agree, that language learning needs time
                    Message 9 of 28 , Dec 2, 2003
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                      In einer eMail vom 02.12.03 14:58:16 (MEZ) Mitteleuropäische Zeit schreibt
                      lacivert@...:


                      > I assume that
                      > some people can achieve even better results, if this
                      > is their primary goal, but I do not really think you
                      > can reach any level better than 3 in less than 3 or 4
                      > months even with scrupulous work (very rare exceptions
                      > do not count).
                      >

                      Hi Unmut,

                      it looks like, that we all agree, that language learning needs time and that
                      means a motivated person probably 1 or 2 years to reach level 3 or 4.

                      Perhaps we should send in the future some comments to the companies, which
                      make such unrealistic promises.

                      regards
                      Claus


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Eric Dawson
                      I miss Jay, please don t leave Nick. Eric ... From: Nicholas Montpetit To: wwbc@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 8:45 AM Subject: [wwbc] Re: Mr
                      Message 10 of 28 , Dec 4, 2003
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                        I miss Jay, please don't leave Nick.

                        Eric
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Nicholas Montpetit
                        To: wwbc@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 8:45 AM
                        Subject: [wwbc] Re: Mr J Strong


                        --- In wwbc@yahoogroups.com, "lizandrews333" <LizAndrews333@h...>
                        wrote:
                        > George Wade and Jon Upton
                        >
                        > You should be ashamed of yourselves! The only conclusion this
                        > unidentified "lurker" can come to is that Buzan Licenced
                        Instructors
                        > will not tolerate questions concerning their methods.
                        >
                        > You side-step the most relevant questions about learning to learn,
                        > and team up to push out and junk-email a valuable (albeit direct)
                        > member. The questions shared were on target, polite to non-BLIs,
                        and
                        > helpful to learners. You want to censor them!

                        Hi Elizabeth,

                        I couldn't agree more with your assessment of the treatment of Jay in
                        this group. Up to this point I've also been a lurker, but it's time
                        for me to risk attack and state that Jay's questions -- if actually
                        answered -- would be very useful to somebody who is trying to learn
                        more about the techniques covered in this group.

                        Time for me to leave,

                        -Nick


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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