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Republique v5.0 [BETA] Morale

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  • gunny87@ymail.com
    I believe that disorder (unformed) is a result of movement or combat and not morale. As units move over or through an obstacale they can lose unit cohesion
    Message 1 of 7 , Aug 4, 2012
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      I believe that disorder (unformed) is a result of movement or combat and not morale. As units move over or through an obstacale they can lose unit cohesion and become disordered. Units would be diordered at the end of an attack and need to take time to reform the ranks. This was often the case as a ACW reenactor when we passed through woods or crossed a stream as the rank and file would lose alinment causing the unit to take time and reform before continueing on. Morale on the other hand is a mental state that may affect physical performance. A better choice for morale would be "concerned" or "worried" as they are in fact contributors to morale (20 years experience as a US Marine) and would be more in line with 'rattled", "shaken", and "demoralized".

      Gunny
    • gunny87@ymail.com
      A case in point; A French account of an actual column advance; When we got about a thousand yards from the English line the men would begin to get
      Message 2 of 7 , Aug 8, 2012
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        A case in point;

        A French account of an actual column advance;

        "When we got about a thousand yards from the English line the men would begin to get anxious...the quick-step became a run, the ranks tended to melt into each other, the agitation became tumultuous. Many soldiers began to fire as they ran...The enemy's return, delivered with simultaneous precision absolutely blasted us. Decimated by it, we reeled together, trying to recover our equilibrium...[then] they were upon us, pressing us into a disorderly retreat."

        Oman, "Column and Line in the Peninsular War", 341-342. Oman's source is Marshal Thomas Bugeaud

        this account clearly shows that disorder occurred due to physical actions, breaking into a run, recieving volley fire and a bayonet charge. Anticipating these actions resulted in changed morale and was a contributing factor in the complete breakdown of the French attack.

        --- In wtj_wargames@yahoogroups.com, "gunny87@..." <gunny87@...> wrote:
        >
        > I believe that disorder (unformed) is a result of movement or combat and not morale. As units move over or through an obstacale they can lose unit cohesion and become disordered. Units would be disordered at the end of an attack and need to take time to reform the ranks. This was often the case as a ACW reenactor when we passed through woods or crossed a stream as the rank and file would lose alinment causing the unit to take time and reform before continueing on. Morale on the other hand is a mental state that may affect physical performance. A better choice for morale would be "concerned" or "worried" as they are in fact contributors to morale (20 years experience as a US Marine) and would be more in line with 'rattled", "shaken", and "demoralized".
        >
        > Gunny
        >
      • AlbertE
        For Gunny and others: One of the innovations of the Napoleonic era WAS [?] the use of what is called the massed column. The combination in the right ratio of
        Message 3 of 7 , Aug 8, 2012
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          For Gunny and others:

          One of the innovations of the Napoleonic era WAS [?] the use of what is called the massed column. The combination in the right ratio of line and column to maximize firepower and movement both [?]. I am almost asking this as a rhetorical question. It is also not that Napoleon invented this type of movement but that he institutionalized the massed column and perfected the formation and used to the greatest extent possible.

          Al L.


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: gunny87@...
          To: wtj_wargames@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 7:08 PM
          Subject: [wtj_wargames] Re: Republique v5.0 [BETA] Morale



          A case in point;

          A French account of an actual column advance;

          "When we got about a thousand yards from the English line the men would begin to get anxious...the quick-step became a run, the ranks tended to melt into each other, the agitation became tumultuous. Many soldiers began to fire as they ran...The enemy's return, delivered with simultaneous precision absolutely blasted us. Decimated by it, we reeled together, trying to recover our equilibrium...[then] they were upon us, pressing us into a disorderly retreat."

          Oman, "Column and Line in the Peninsular War", 341-342. Oman's source is Marshal Thomas Bugeaud

          this account clearly shows that disorder occurred due to physical actions, breaking into a run, recieving volley fire and a bayonet charge. Anticipating these actions resulted in changed morale and was a contributing factor in the complete breakdown of the French attack.

          --- In wtj_wargames@yahoogroups.com, "gunny87@..." <gunny87@...> wrote:
          >
          > I believe that disorder (unformed) is a result of movement or combat and not morale. As units move over or through an obstacale they can lose unit cohesion and become disordered. Units would be disordered at the end of an attack and need to take time to reform the ranks. This was often the case as a ACW reenactor when we passed through woods or crossed a stream as the rank and file would lose alinment causing the unit to take time and reform before continueing on. Morale on the other hand is a mental state that may affect physical performance. A better choice for morale would be "concerned" or "worried" as they are in fact contributors to morale (20 years experience as a US Marine) and would be more in line with 'rattled", "shaken", and "demoralized".
          >
          > Gunny
          >





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • wtjcom
          Technically you are correct, however Republique speeds game play by combining various elements that otherwise might remain distinct. For example, volley fire
          Message 4 of 7 , Aug 8, 2012
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            Technically you are correct, however Republique speeds game play by combining various elements that otherwise might remain distinct. For example, volley fire has been folded into a more general combat environment. Similarly, morale and unit order have been wound together and elements (and terminology) for both are liberally used - sometimes in tandem. I know this is an abstraction, but it was done to push game play as far as possible into a grand-tactical format... the rules were written mainly for doing very large battles (IE - Wagram, Borodino).

            Hope that helps,
            Jim


            --- In wtj_wargames@yahoogroups.com, "gunny87@..." <gunny87@...> wrote:
            >
            > I believe that disorder (unformed) is a result of movement or combat and not morale. As units move over or through an obstacale they can lose unit cohesion and become disordered. Units would be diordered at the end of an attack and need to take time to reform the ranks. This was often the case as a ACW reenactor when we passed through woods or crossed a stream as the rank and file would lose alinment causing the unit to take time and reform before continueing on. Morale on the other hand is a mental state that may affect physical performance. A better choice for morale would be "concerned" or "worried" as they are in fact contributors to morale (20 years experience as a US Marine) and would be more in line with 'rattled", "shaken", and "demoralized".
            >
            > Gunny
            >
          • gunny87@ymail.com
            French columns were rarely if ever massed. Columns of companies was companies in line with enough space between to allow companies to wheel to form a line to
            Message 5 of 7 , Aug 8, 2012
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              French columns were rarely if ever massed. Columns of companies was companies in line with enough space between to allow companies to wheel to form a line to the left or right. Column of divisions was 2 companies in line abreast with wheeling space for each division (3 divisions in a French Battalion with 6 companies). The Austrians did use a massed column in 1809 and later that put a regiment into a solid mass when atacked by cavalry that then took a severe pounding by artillery. Napoleon thought the column as a formation to rapidly move on the battlefield but not as the actual fighting formation. At Austerlitz the assualt on Pratzen Hieghts was done with Regiments in line not column

              "The tactical details of the attack by Soult's 1st division are clearly described by a French participant, General Thiébault. Nearing the village of Pratzen, the 1st Battalion of the 14th deploys into line and is rebuffed in its attack upon the village. Thiébault leads a counterattack with the regiment's 2nd Battalion which "deployed as it ran".

              But the in NapsBattles actual unit formation is beyond the scope of a corps commander.

              Gunny

              --- In wtj_wargames@yahoogroups.com, "AlbertE" <alnsnmyralb@...> wrote:
              >
              > For Gunny and others:
              >
              > One of the innovations of the Napoleonic era WAS [?] the use of what is called the massed column. The combination in the right ratio of line and column to maximize firepower and movement both [?]. I am almost asking this as a rhetorical question. It is also not that Napoleon invented this type of movement but that he institutionalized the massed column and perfected the formation and used to the greatest extent possible.
              >
              > Al L.
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: gunny87@...
              > To: wtj_wargames@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 7:08 PM
              > Subject: [wtj_wargames] Re: Republique v5.0 [BETA] Morale
              >
              >
              >
              > A case in point;
              >
              > A French account of an actual column advance;
              >
              > "When we got about a thousand yards from the English line the men would begin to get anxious...the quick-step became a run, the ranks tended to melt into each other, the agitation became tumultuous. Many soldiers began to fire as they ran...The enemy's return, delivered with simultaneous precision absolutely blasted us. Decimated by it, we reeled together, trying to recover our equilibrium...[then] they were upon us, pressing us into a disorderly retreat."
              >
              > Oman, "Column and Line in the Peninsular War", 341-342. Oman's source is Marshal Thomas Bugeaud
              >
              > this account clearly shows that disorder occurred due to physical actions, breaking into a run, recieving volley fire and a bayonet charge. Anticipating these actions resulted in changed morale and was a contributing factor in the complete breakdown of the French attack.
              >
              > --- In wtj_wargames@yahoogroups.com, "gunny87@" <gunny87@> wrote:
              > >
              > > I believe that disorder (unformed) is a result of movement or combat and not morale. As units move over or through an obstacale they can lose unit cohesion and become disordered. Units would be disordered at the end of an attack and need to take time to reform the ranks. This was often the case as a ACW reenactor when we passed through woods or crossed a stream as the rank and file would lose alinment causing the unit to take time and reform before continueing on. Morale on the other hand is a mental state that may affect physical performance. A better choice for morale would be "concerned" or "worried" as they are in fact contributors to morale (20 years experience as a US Marine) and would be more in line with 'rattled", "shaken", and "demoralized".
              > >
              > > Gunny
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Brad Lehman
              Yes it does and it makes sense when looking at the larger picture.   Thanks, Gunny ... From: wtjcom Subject: [wtj_wargames] Re:
              Message 6 of 7 , Aug 8, 2012
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                Yes it does and it makes sense when looking at the larger picture.
                 
                Thanks, Gunny

                --- On Thu, 8/9/12, wtjcom <manfred@...> wrote:


                From: wtjcom <manfred@...>
                Subject: [wtj_wargames] Re: Republique v5.0 [BETA] Morale
                To: wtj_wargames@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Thursday, August 9, 2012, 2:53 AM



                 



                Technically you are correct, however Republique speeds game play by combining various elements that otherwise might remain distinct. For example, volley fire has been folded into a more general combat environment. Similarly, morale and unit order have been wound together and elements (and terminology) for both are liberally used - sometimes in tandem. I know this is an abstraction, but it was done to push game play as far as possible into a grand-tactical format... the rules were written mainly for doing very large battles (IE - Wagram, Borodino).

                Hope that helps,
                Jim

                --- In wtj_wargames@yahoogroups.com, "gunny87@..." <gunny87@...> wrote:
                >
                > I believe that disorder (unformed) is a result of movement or combat and not morale. As units move over or through an obstacale they can lose unit cohesion and become disordered. Units would be diordered at the end of an attack and need to take time to reform the ranks. This was often the case as a ACW reenactor when we passed through woods or crossed a stream as the rank and file would lose alinment causing the unit to take time and reform before continueing on. Morale on the other hand is a mental state that may affect physical performance. A better choice for morale would be "concerned" or "worried" as they are in fact contributors to morale (20 years experience as a US Marine) and would be more in line with 'rattled", "shaken", and "demoralized".
                >
                > Gunny
                >








                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Brad Lehman
                Oops, meant republique ... From: gunny87@ymail.com Subject: [wtj_wargames] Re: Republique v5.0 [BETA] Morale To:
                Message 7 of 7 , Aug 8, 2012
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                  Oops, meant republique


                  --- On Thu, 8/9/12, gunny87@... <gunny87@...> wrote:


                  From: gunny87@... <gunny87@...>
                  Subject: [wtj_wargames] Re: Republique v5.0 [BETA] Morale
                  To: wtj_wargames@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Thursday, August 9, 2012, 3:00 AM



                   



                  French columns were rarely if ever massed. Columns of companies was companies in line with enough space between to allow companies to wheel to form a line to the left or right. Column of divisions was 2 companies in line abreast with wheeling space for each division (3 divisions in a French Battalion with 6 companies). The Austrians did use a massed column in 1809 and later that put a regiment into a solid mass when atacked by cavalry that then took a severe pounding by artillery. Napoleon thought the column as a formation to rapidly move on the battlefield but not as the actual fighting formation. At Austerlitz the assualt on Pratzen Hieghts was done with Regiments in line not column

                  "The tactical details of the attack by Soult's 1st division are clearly described by a French participant, General Thiébault. Nearing the village of Pratzen, the 1st Battalion of the 14th deploys into line and is rebuffed in its attack upon the village. Thiébault leads a counterattack with the regiment's 2nd Battalion which "deployed as it ran".

                  But the in NapsBattles actual unit formation is beyond the scope of a corps commander.

                  Gunny

                  --- In wtj_wargames@yahoogroups.com, "AlbertE" <alnsnmyralb@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > For Gunny and others:
                  >
                  > One of the innovations of the Napoleonic era WAS [?] the use of what is called the massed column. The combination in the right ratio of line and column to maximize firepower and movement both [?]. I am almost asking this as a rhetorical question. It is also not that Napoleon invented this type of movement but that he institutionalized the massed column and perfected the formation and used to the greatest extent possible.
                  >
                  > Al L.
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: gunny87@...
                  > To: wtj_wargames@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 7:08 PM
                  > Subject: [wtj_wargames] Re: Republique v5.0 [BETA] Morale
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > A case in point;
                  >
                  > A French account of an actual column advance;
                  >
                  > "When we got about a thousand yards from the English line the men would begin to get anxious...the quick-step became a run, the ranks tended to melt into each other, the agitation became tumultuous. Many soldiers began to fire as they ran...The enemy's return, delivered with simultaneous precision absolutely blasted us. Decimated by it, we reeled together, trying to recover our equilibrium...[then] they were upon us, pressing us into a disorderly retreat."
                  >
                  > Oman, "Column and Line in the Peninsular War", 341-342. Oman's source is Marshal Thomas Bugeaud
                  >
                  > this account clearly shows that disorder occurred due to physical actions, breaking into a run, recieving volley fire and a bayonet charge. Anticipating these actions resulted in changed morale and was a contributing factor in the complete breakdown of the French attack.
                  >
                  > --- In wtj_wargames@yahoogroups.com, "gunny87@" <gunny87@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I believe that disorder (unformed) is a result of movement or combat and not morale. As units move over or through an obstacale they can lose unit cohesion and become disordered. Units would be disordered at the end of an attack and need to take time to reform the ranks. This was often the case as a ACW reenactor when we passed through woods or crossed a stream as the rank and file would lose alinment causing the unit to take time and reform before continueing on. Morale on the other hand is a mental state that may affect physical performance. A better choice for morale would be "concerned" or "worried" as they are in fact contributors to morale (20 years experience as a US Marine) and would be more in line with 'rattled", "shaken", and "demoralized".
                  > >
                  > > Gunny
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >








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