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Re: [wtcattack] On The Recent Killings In Israel

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  • Ian C Naish
    Arafat, Sharon, Rumsfield, et al. will all meet up in hell, wher they can compare notes. Ian ________________________________________________________________
    Message 1 of 5 , Dec 3, 2001
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      Arafat, Sharon, Rumsfield, et al. will all meet up in
      hell, wher they can compare notes.

      Ian

      ________________________________________________________________
      Nokia 5510 looks weird sounds great.
      Go to http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/nokia/ discover and win it!
      The competition ends 16 th of December 2001.
    • Jack Malki
      David, You sound very much like me. I am not against any people. I just want to see both Israelis and Palestinians live in peace. Please let me offer some
      Message 2 of 5 , Dec 4, 2001
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        David,
        You sound very much like me. I am not against any people. I just want
        to see both Israelis and Palestinians live in peace. Please let me
        offer some alternate thoughts to some of what you said, however.


        "There is a BIG difference between fighting against your occupiers and
        targeting civilians. The Palestinians who throw rocks at Israeli
        soldiers are fighting their occupiers. The bombings of malls and buses
        are terrorist acts. The Palestinians lose ALL credibility when these
        things happen."

        David, you are right about the loss of support for the Palestinian
        cause. The suicide bombers are desperate and short-sighted
        politically. However, I can understand how people can be driven to
        that point of desperation by such a hideous occupation that has gone
        on now for decades with no end in sight.


        "Now I feel that until the Palestinians and their sympathizers STOP
        THE TARGETING OF CIVILIANS, any peace process is impossible. The
        bombing of civilians by Palestinians MUST STOP or peace is
        impossible."

        Again, I agree. However, Israel is probably making one of it's most
        stupid, self-defeating decisions right about now. It is considering
        getting rid of Arafat. If the Israelis do that they will be getting
        rid of a secular leader. That will inevitably strengthen the hands of
        the fanatic religious leaders who, until recently, have never had the
        support of more than 20% of the Palestinians. The result for Israel
        will be even more attacks on civilians.


        "I for one was previously sympathetic to the Palestinians, but now I
        am forced to admit that that evil bastard Sharon is right on this one
        issue."

        Thanks for calling Sharon an evil bastard. My feelings exactly. But he
        is also a very shrewd leader. My guess is that his real goal is to
        realize the ultimate Zionist dream of Eretz Israel. That dream, which
        many extreme rightists like Sharon harbor, is to get rid of all
        non-Jews in Israel and expand Israel's borders to where they were in
        biblical times. Sounds unrealistic, to be sure. But Sharon and quite a
        few others in Israeli leadership feel that way. The Tourism Minister
        who was recently killed was a prime example of that mindset, and
        that's one of the main reasons the Palestinians targeted him.

        So, it may be that Sharon's real objective is to strengthen the hands
        of the religious fanatics among the Palestinians. That way the
        Palestinian cause loses all respectability in the world and Israel can
        commence it's verson of "ethnic cleansing." I am not positive, and a
        smart guy like Sharon would never admit it in public, but I am pretty
        sure that is exactly what he's after based on his past behaviour.


        "The Palestinians must FIRST stop the terrorists, THEN the peace
        process can resume."

        This seems reasonable, but there are a couple of reasons why I don't
        think it is realistic.

        First, before this Intifada started about a year ago, when there was
        some hope for a real peace, you may remember that Palestinians were
        relatively peaceful. But, even while they were talking peace, the
        Israelis were doing something very sinister: they were very actively
        building new illegal settlements, paving new Jewish only roads, and
        generally doing the exact opposite of what a peace partner should do.
        Ha'aretz newspaper, one of Israel's better ones, reported that during
        this "peace process" period, Israel did more illegal settlement
        building than at any other time in it's history. So, to Palestinians,
        the Israeli call for them to "stop the fighting and then we'll talk
        peace" is a sham.

        Secondly, the collapse of the talks, the the installation in Israel of
        an extreme right-wing Arab-hating leader, coupled by a hideous
        occupation of hostile military rule, rapidly expanding Jewish
        settlements, brutal reprisals against Palestinians, bulldozers,
        checkpoints, Jewish only roads, and no sign of an end to this
        nightmare makes it almost impossible for people to sit back and put
        their trust in genuine good motives from the Israelis. In other words,
        too many Palestinians now believe that Israel is not really interested
        in peace. If she was interested in peace, many ask, then why did she
        pursue all those peace-killing policies during the peaceful period
        before the Intifada began, such as the expedited settlement
        constructions, etc.

        ----------

        David, I believe that Israel holds the key to peace. It's really
        simple: end the occupation. Let the Palestinians breath free. By doing
        so the Israelis will have extinguished the fuel of injustice and
        hostile occupation which keeps the Palestinians fighting.

        So, in a sense, I blame Israel for the killing of her own citizens,
        because her policies are only creating enemies that are more desperate
        and determined, and she keeps the fuel of injustice filled to the
        brim.

        Jack
      • michad03
        In many ways I agree with you. I blame Sharon for the collapse of the Clinton-based peace process, though the Palestinian millitants sure helped him along. But
        Message 3 of 5 , Dec 6, 2001
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          In many ways I agree with you. I blame Sharon for the collapse of the
          Clinton-based peace process, though the Palestinian millitants sure
          helped him along. But the more violent Hamas becomes, the more I cannot
          help but see things from Sharon's view. Until Hamas is stopped, how can
          there be peace?

          As for Israel targeting Arafat, I think I agree that this seems to be a
          blunder. It seems like they may be attacking the only comparatively
          moderate force on the Palestinian side. I wouldn't be surprised if
          Sharon really just wants to destroy or push out all Palestinians. But
          Hamas is giving him all the ammunition he needs. In fact, if the
          Palestinians had simply shrugged off Sharon's cynical power play where
          he went to the Temple Mount with a huge show of force, Sharon wouldn't
          even be in power now. But instead they handed him power on a plate and
          continue to do so. The future of the area SHOULD lie with Peres, Barak
          and maybe Arafat, but currently the future is being determined by
          Sharon and Hamas. THAT is scary.

          David
          http://home.talkcity.com/YosemiteDr/mole333/index.html

          --- In wtcattack@y..., "Jack Malki" <custom@p...> wrote:
          > David,
          > You sound very much like me. I am not against any people. I just want
          > to see both Israelis and Palestinians live in peace. Please let me
          > offer some alternate thoughts to some of what you said, however.
          >
          >
          > "There is a BIG difference between fighting against your occupiers and
          > targeting civilians. The Palestinians who throw rocks at Israeli
          > soldiers are fighting their occupiers. The bombings of malls and buses
          > are terrorist acts. The Palestinians lose ALL credibility when these
          > things happen."
          >
          > David, you are right about the loss of support for the Palestinian
          > cause. The suicide bombers are desperate and short-sighted
          > politically. However, I can understand how people can be driven to
          > that point of desperation by such a hideous occupation that has gone
          > on now for decades with no end in sight.
          >
          >
          > "Now I feel that until the Palestinians and their sympathizers STOP
          > THE TARGETING OF CIVILIANS, any peace process is impossible. The
          > bombing of civilians by Palestinians MUST STOP or peace is
          > impossible."
          >
          > Again, I agree. However, Israel is probably making one of it's most
          > stupid, self-defeating decisions right about now. It is considering
          > getting rid of Arafat. If the Israelis do that they will be getting
          > rid of a secular leader. That will inevitably strengthen the hands of
          > the fanatic religious leaders who, until recently, have never had the
          > support of more than 20% of the Palestinians. The result for Israel
          > will be even more attacks on civilians.
          >
          >
          > "I for one was previously sympathetic to the Palestinians, but now I
          > am forced to admit that that evil bastard Sharon is right on this one
          > issue."
          >
          > Thanks for calling Sharon an evil bastard. My feelings exactly. But he
          > is also a very shrewd leader. My guess is that his real goal is to
          > realize the ultimate Zionist dream of Eretz Israel. That dream, which
          > many extreme rightists like Sharon harbor, is to get rid of all
          > non-Jews in Israel and expand Israel's borders to where they were in
          > biblical times. Sounds unrealistic, to be sure. But Sharon and quite a
          > few others in Israeli leadership feel that way. The Tourism Minister
          > who was recently killed was a prime example of that mindset, and
          > that's one of the main reasons the Palestinians targeted him.
          >
          > So, it may be that Sharon's real objective is to strengthen the hands
          > of the religious fanatics among the Palestinians. That way the
          > Palestinian cause loses all respectability in the world and Israel can
          > commence it's verson of "ethnic cleansing." I am not positive, and a
          > smart guy like Sharon would never admit it in public, but I am pretty
          > sure that is exactly what he's after based on his past behaviour.
          >
          >
          > "The Palestinians must FIRST stop the terrorists, THEN the peace
          > process can resume."
          >
          > This seems reasonable, but there are a couple of reasons why I don't
          > think it is realistic.
          >
          > First, before this Intifada started about a year ago, when there was
          > some hope for a real peace, you may remember that Palestinians were
          > relatively peaceful. But, even while they were talking peace, the
          > Israelis were doing something very sinister: they were very actively
          > building new illegal settlements, paving new Jewish only roads, and
          > generally doing the exact opposite of what a peace partner should do.
          > Ha'aretz newspaper, one of Israel's better ones, reported that during
          > this "peace process" period, Israel did more illegal settlement
          > building than at any other time in it's history. So, to Palestinians,
          > the Israeli call for them to "stop the fighting and then we'll talk
          > peace" is a sham.
          >
          > Secondly, the collapse of the talks, the the installation in Israel of
          > an extreme right-wing Arab-hating leader, coupled by a hideous
          > occupation of hostile military rule, rapidly expanding Jewish
          > settlements, brutal reprisals against Palestinians, bulldozers,
          > checkpoints, Jewish only roads, and no sign of an end to this
          > nightmare makes it almost impossible for people to sit back and put
          > their trust in genuine good motives from the Israelis. In other words,
          > too many Palestinians now believe that Israel is not really interested
          > in peace. If she was interested in peace, many ask, then why did she
          > pursue all those peace-killing policies during the peaceful period
          > before the Intifada began, such as the expedited settlement
          > constructions, etc.
          >
          > ----------
          >
          > David, I believe that Israel holds the key to peace. It's really
          > simple: end the occupation. Let the Palestinians breath free. By doing
          > so the Israelis will have extinguished the fuel of injustice and
          > hostile occupation which keeps the Palestinians fighting.
          >
          > So, in a sense, I blame Israel for the killing of her own citizens,
          > because her policies are only creating enemies that are more desperate
          > and determined, and she keeps the fuel of injustice filled to the
          > brim.
          >
          > Jack
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