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Signal Reports

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  • fred_darrah
    Hello to All, I have noticed recently on contacts that many are not giving signal reports. For a valid contact I think this would be a required part of a
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 1, 2011
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      Hello to All,
      I have noticed recently on contacts that many are not giving signal reports. For a valid contact I think this would be a required part of a valid QSO. If I am wrong please let me know. I always give a signal report and feel one should be sent in return.
      73 Fred N9GUE
    • Russ K2TXB
      Depends on what you mean by a report. A report can be a signal report like 599 (CW), S9(SSB), S2(CW MS), 26 (HSMS). It can also be a grid square or a contact
      Message 2 of 10 , Apr 1, 2011
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        Depends on what you mean by a report.  A report can be a signal report like 599 (CW), S9(SSB), S2(CW MS), 26 (HSMS).  It can also be a grid square or a contact number (like in SS).  And for EME it can be simply 'O'.  All of these are valid reports for making a valid contact.  In fact, almost any piece of information can be used for a report as long as the two parties have agreed on it's use.  So you could have a contest where the reports are a date-time value, or the town you were born in, or the number of element in your antenna, etc etc.  In WSJT, by convention, we agree that a single tone, sent steadily for the whole transmission, can be both a report and an acknowledgement.  All valid.
         
        If you are hearing people sending just calls and then RRR, 73, with no kind of report, then I'd agree that is not right.
         
        73, Russ K2TXB
         


        From: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of fred_darrah
        Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 4:17 PM
        To: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [wsjtgroup] Signal Reports

         

        Hello to All,
        I have noticed recently on contacts that many are not giving signal reports. For a valid contact I think this would be a required part of a valid QSO. If I am wrong please let me know. I always give a signal report and feel one should be sent in return.
        73 Fred N9GUE

      • fred_darrah
        I think what is being said is, there is no minimum acceptable standards for a valid QSO. How can one agree between each other what is valid in JT65 mode at the
        Message 3 of 10 , Apr 2, 2011
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          I think what is being said is, there is no minimum acceptable standards for a valid QSO. How can one agree between each other what is valid in JT65 mode at the time of the QSO? There must be a minimum standard for ARRL awards taken from QSL cards. I have had one operator that never sent an RRR or a 73 and threw a fit when I would not validate the contact. Do each of us make up our own standards.
          73 Fred N9GUE
        • K. D. Sarchet
          Fred, I am assuming you are using terrestrial JT65A as the mode, rather than EME, so I ll reference that. The old-timers to that mode taught me that you
          Message 4 of 10 , Apr 2, 2011
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            Fred,

             

            I am assuming you are using terrestrial JT65A as the mode, rather than EME, so I’ll reference that.  The old-timers to that mode taught me that you exchanged call signs, locator and signal reports for a valid QSO.  And the 73 was optional.  That said, I don’t know who their tutor was or who originated that rule.  Personally, I totally agree with your point about not confirming without a signal report.  I have been in the same situation, and unless I get a call sign, grid and report, I don’t QSL.  That is just my opinion.

             

            73 de WY5R - KD

             

            JT65A Power Calculator

             

            From: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of fred_darrah
            Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2011 6:30 AM
            To: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [wsjtgroup] Signal Reports

             

             

            I think what is being said is, there is no minimum acceptable standards for a valid QSO. How can one agree between each other what is valid in JT65 mode at the time of the QSO? There must be a minimum standard for ARRL awards taken from QSL cards. I have had one operator that never sent an RRR or a 73 and threw a fit when I would not validate the contact. Do each of us make up our own standards.
            73 Fred N9GUE

          • Russ K2TXB
            ... for a valid QSO. ... of the QSO? ... have had one ... validate the ... I Think you took what I said in the wrong way. When operating JT65 the CONVENTION
            Message 5 of 10 , Apr 2, 2011
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              Fred wrote:

              > I think what is being said is, there is no minimum acceptable standards
              for a valid QSO.
              > How can one agree between each other what is valid in JT65 mode at he time
              of the QSO?
              > There must be a minimum standard for ARRL awards taken from QSL cards. I
              have had one
              > operator that never sent an RRR or a 73 and threw a fit when I would not
              validate the
              > contact. Do each of us make up our own standards.
              > 73 Ftred N9GUE


              I Think you took what I said in the wrong way. When operating JT65 the
              CONVENTION is to use OOO and RO to exchange signal reports. If you are
              working someone random then you use that - or else it is not going to be
              understood by the other. Exchange of grid squares as done in JT65 is not
              considered to be a report exchange. This is because the grids are sent
              before receiving an acknowledgement. A valid QSO between K2XXX and N3YYY
              MUST include the proper receipt of BOTH callsigns, reports, and
              acknowledgements. Note that the report is a very key part of the exchange,
              because it tells the other operator that you have received both calls
              correctly. Without a report, one station or the other will continue sending
              calls forever (or until he gives up). It goes like this:

              Assume that either N3YYY has called CQ or the contact is prearranged (sked).
              First is the initial call. The only important part is the call signs, any
              other information is superfluous, but may be included. The report cannot be
              part of the initial call.
              The initial call is repeated by K2XXX until he receives a report (indicating
              that N3YYY has received both calls).

              1) K2XXX de N3YYY

              Once N3YYY receives BOTH calls, he may then begin sending the report, but he
              CANNOT send the report until he has received BOTH calls. Also he MUST
              continue sending both calls until he receives a report back.

              2) N3YYY de K2XXX REPORT

              Once N3YYY receives both calls AND the report he can send RRR and his own
              report, proceeding to step 3. But he CANNOT send the report until he has
              received both calls. If he gets the calls but not the report then he
              proceeds to step 2, sending calls and report. In that case both stations
              are on step two, and continue with step two until one of them gets the
              report. This is because the report is the piece of information that tells
              you that the other station has received both calls.

              3) RRR REPORT

              Note that for step 3, no calls are required since the sending station KNOWS
              that the other station has received the calls (or else he would not have
              sent a report). Once K2XXX receives the report, he proceeds to step 4,
              sending his own acknowledgement.

              4) RRR

              Once the final RRR acknowledgement is received, the contact is complete.
              Both stations have received both calls and a report, and both stations have
              received acknowledgement of those facts. However mostly it is good to then
              exchange 73's. Otherwise the station sending step 4 will not know for sure
              that the other guy actually received it. (It does not matter if he knows,
              the contact is complete and valid if the RRR was received by both parties,
              even if no subsequent information is exchanged.)

              5) 73 de N3YYY
              6) 73 de K2XXX

              If both stations follow the rules above, there will be no questions about it
              being a valid contact. If one station does not send a report or rogers,
              then it cannot be valid because there is no way the other station could have
              received this crucial piece of information.

              Also, I should mention that any exchange of QSO information by any means
              other than via their transmitters and receivers, does invalidate the
              contact. This especially includes internet chat pages. If you chat to the
              other guy "are you receiving me yet, and he answers yes or no, the contact
              is not valid. (It can still be completed, but both stations have to start
              over, throwing out any information they may already have received.)

              73, Russ K2TXB
            • rsnnj5
              Personally, I think the discussion of valid contacts is being made way too complicated. The ARRL Operating Manual states, ... for a valid QSO to take place,
              Message 6 of 10 , Apr 2, 2011
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                Personally, I think the discussion of valid contacts is being made way too complicated.

                The ARRL Operating Manual states, "... for a valid QSO to take place, you must exchange full call signs, some piece of information, and acknowledgment. ..." It may not be the authority, but it likely summarizes what we all adher to at one time or another.

                Obviously, the MAJORITY of contacts made use a signal report as that "some piece of information". Outside of other guidance we read, learned, or whatever, we use the signal report.

                However, other specialized contact methods have developed and evolved using other "pieces of information" that better suit the needs for that communication.

                (2) EME uses OOO and RO.
                (3) WSJT meteor scatter uses report (ie, 26) or grid. For instance, WSJT QsoS in VHF contests needs the "grid". And the program setup allows the using reports or grids as the defaults.
                (4) Some contests use reports and one other piece of info.
                (4a) Some contests use reports and many other pieces of info (sweepstakes).
                (4b) Some contests (many) use NO SIG REPORT, just other info. (CQ VHF contests, ARRL VHF contests, many RTTY contests).

                If anyone wants to operate where they only accept exchange of signal reports as a valid contact, more power to you. But it means you are likely avoiding contesting. That's fine TOO, but you are missing some great opportunities for new countries, grids, states, and new friends.

                Steve, W5KI
              • Roger Schneider
                For what it’s worth, LoTW requires no signal report to validate a qso. Roger W9FF For what it’s worth, LoTW requires no signal report to validate a qso.
                Message 7 of 10 , Apr 2, 2011
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                  For what it’s worth, LoTW requires no signal report to validate a qso.    Roger W9FF
                • Jim Kennedy
                  Nicely stated Steve. I agree and I am sure many others do also. Jim W7OUU ... From: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                  Message 8 of 10 , Apr 2, 2011
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                  • Barry Garratt
                    That pretty much sums it up Steve. Well said! Barry KS7DX From: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rsnnj5 Sent:
                    Message 9 of 10 , Apr 2, 2011
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                      That pretty much sums it up Steve. Well said!

                       

                      Barry KS7DX

                       

                       

                       

                      From: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rsnnj5
                      Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2011 9:16 AM
                      To: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [wsjtgroup] Re: Signal Reports

                       

                       

                      Personally, I think the discussion of valid contacts is being made way too complicated.

                      The ARRL Operating Manual states, "... for a valid QSO to take place, you must exchange full call signs, some piece of information, and acknowledgment. ..." It may not be the authority, but it likely summarizes what we all adher to at one time or another.

                      Obviously, the MAJORITY of contacts made use a signal report as that "some piece of information". Outside of other guidance we read, learned, or whatever, we use the signal report.

                      However, other specialized contact methods have developed and evolved using other "pieces of information" that better suit the needs for that communication.

                      (2) EME uses OOO and RO.
                      (3) WSJT meteor scatter uses report (ie, 26) or grid. For instance, WSJT QsoS in VHF contests needs the "grid". And the program setup allows the using reports or grids as the defaults.
                      (4) Some contests use reports and one other piece of info.
                      (4a) Some contests use reports and many other pieces of info (sweepstakes).
                      (4b) Some contests (many) use NO SIG REPORT, just other info. (CQ VHF contests, ARRL VHF contests, many RTTY contests).

                      If anyone wants to operate where they only accept exchange of signal reports as a valid contact, more power to you. But it means you are likely avoiding contesting. That's fine TOO, but you are missing some great opportunities for new countries, grids, states, and new friends.

                      Steve, W5KI

                    • K. D. Sarchet
                      Thanks Steve, As others have said, very well put. You have confirmed the operating procedure that was pointed out to me several years ago when I started
                      Message 10 of 10 , Apr 3, 2011
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                        Thanks Steve,

                         

                        As others have said, very well put.

                         

                        You have confirmed the operating procedure that was pointed out to me several years ago when I started terrestrial JT65.  The information exchanged is the signal report.  The grid just happens to be with the call sign and part of the protocol built-in to the CQ and the answer to the CQ.  With a trailing confirmation via RRR or 73.

                        Incidentally, I was curious to know who and how this process was started.   I received several direct emails on the subject and a couple of them pointed out that the procedure you outlined was originally suggested as a confirmation procedure by Ed Tilton, W1HDQ back in the early 1960’s.  Ed was the original ARRL editor for “The World Above 50MHz”.

                         

                        73 de WY5R - KD

                         

                        JT65A Power Calculator

                         

                        From: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rsnnj5
                        Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2011 11:16 AM
                        To: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [wsjtgroup] Re: Signal Reports

                         

                         

                        Personally, I think the discussion of valid contacts is being made way too complicated.

                        The ARRL Operating Manual states, "... for a valid QSO to take place, you must exchange full call signs, some piece of information, and acknowledgment. ..." It may not be the authority, but it likely summarizes what we all adher to at one time or another.

                        Obviously, the MAJORITY of contacts made use a signal report as that "some piece of information". Outside of other guidance we read, learned, or whatever, we use the signal report.

                        However, other specialized contact methods have developed and evolved using other "pieces of information" that better suit the needs for that communication.

                        (2) EME uses OOO and RO.
                        (3) WSJT meteor scatter uses report (ie, 26) or grid. For instance, WSJT QsoS in VHF contests needs the "grid". And the program setup allows the using reports or grids as the defaults.
                        (4) Some contests use reports and one other piece of info.
                        (4a) Some contests use reports and many other pieces of info (sweepstakes).
                        (4b) Some contests (many) use NO SIG REPORT, just other info. (CQ VHF contests, ARRL VHF contests, many RTTY contests).

                        If anyone wants to operate where they only accept exchange of signal reports as a valid contact, more power to you. But it means you are likely avoiding contesting. That's fine TOO, but you are missing some great opportunities for new countries, grids, states, and new friends.

                        Steve, W5KI

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