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RE: [wsjtgroup] Re: Tx1 ... Why add to it?

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  • Russ K2TXB
    Bill wrote: Reading through this thread, this is clearly the misunderstanding that Russ has. Both stations do not need to (nor should they) send every message.
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 8, 2009
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      Bill wrote:
       
      Reading through this thread, this is clearly the misunderstanding that Russ has. Both stations do not need to (nor should they) send every message. The messages alternate. Only one station sends R26 (which contains that station's "roger"). Then the other station sends RRR. And that's it. It's a QSO.
       
      Oh Boy!  Sorry Bill and others.  I forget that I have not been too active here, and on the air, since my move in 2007.  So I could not rightfully expect you to know of my history or accomplishments.  As one who started trying HSMS in the 1970's, using slowed down and speeded up tape recorders to send and receive CW at a couple of hundred WPM, and was very active in with the first HSMS computer programs, and who worked his way through all of the various renditions of FSK441, once it became available, I can assure you that I know exactly what the procedures are, what the rules are, and how to use them to best advantage.
       
      That said, I can see nothing in my previous comments to lead anyone to think that I think that every message has to be used by both stations.  Believe me, I know very well that is untrue.  Perhaps your misunderstanding arises from my use of RRR to represent sending of rogers.  OF COURSE sending R26 also sends rogers.  R26 means, exactly, RRR (got your report{and calls}), and your report is 26.  So, of course, when you receive R26 you are receiving the RRR signal!!!!!
       
      However one person I replied to said that it was good enough that only one side of the QSO received RRR.  That is completely untrue.
       
      Regards, Russ K2TXB   (FM29PT - WAS, WAC, 44 DXCC, 419 Grids, 597 MS contacts - all on 2 meters - now moved to FN20MB).
       
       


      From: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill W5WVO
      Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 1:30 PM
      To: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com; nz3m_dave
      Subject: Re: [wsjtgroup] Re: Tx1 ... Why add to it?

       

      Reading through this thread, this is clearly the misunderstanding that Russ has. Both stations do not need to (nor should they) send every message. The messages alternate. Only one station sends R26 (which contains that station's "roger"). Then the other station sends RRR. And that's it. It's a QSO.
       
      If you press the F5 key in WSJT, you will see Joe Taylor's very clear explanation of who sends what when.
       
      Bill W5WVO
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: nz3m_dave
      Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 11:09 AM
      Subject: [wsjtgroup] Re: Tx1 ... Why add to it?

       

      Russ,

      TX3 is the first "roger" (R26). Both stations don't need to receive RRR or TX4

      73
      Dave NZ3M

      --- In wsjtgroup@yahoogrou ps.com, "Russ K2TXB" <k2txb@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dave said:
      >
      > Only one received RRR makes a complete QSO. If you are sending RRR and the
      > other station reports on the chat that he received it, it's a QSO. I' don't
      > know what you are trying to say here.
      >
      > That is not right. The rules clearly state that BOTH stations must receive
      > rogers in order for the contact to be valid. If you receive RRR and have
      > not yet sent them, the contact is not complete and does not count. Further
      > if you receive RRR and send your own RRR, but the other station never copies
      > it, the contact is likewise void.
      >
      > I once almost completed a meteor scatter contact with a station in Colorado,
      > a distance of over 1900 miles from my FM29 location. It would have been a
      > world record 2 meter MS contact, and would probably have stood for many many
      > years. But I never received his RRR. Everything else was complete, we had
      > both calls each way, full reports, and he got my RRR. I can assure you that
      > it was very tempting to claim it as a complete QSO - especially as I had
      > been trying to make that path for many years. But it never happened and
      > most likely never will (for me). That is the nature of meteor scatter - you
      > can not make all the contacts, and if you want to be proud of the contacts
      > you have made it is essential that, in your own heart, you know that every
      > claimed QSO was done with strict adherence to the rules and that no one can
      > legitimately question your accomplishment.
      >
      > 73, Russ K2TXB
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > _____
      >
      > From: wsjtgroup@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf
      > Of nz3m_dave
      > Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 10:20 AM
      > To: wsjtgroup@yahoogrou ps.com
      > Subject: [wsjtgroup] Re: Tx1 ... Why add to it?
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Only one received RRR makes a complete QSO. If you are sending RRR and the
      > other station reports on the chat that he received it, it's a QSO. I' don't
      > know what you are trying to say here.
      >
      > Dave NZ3M
      >
      > --- In wsjtgroup@yahoogrou <mailto:wsjtgroup% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com,
      > "Russ K2TXB" <k2txb@> wrote:
      > But you should never check those channels until you have
      > received RRR yourself. Why not? Because if you check the chat page when you
      > have not received RRR, and you see that your partner is saying he received
      > the RRR, then you have received part of the necessary QSO information via a
      > means that is not part of the legal QSO requirements. At that point it is a
      > busted contact and must be done over.
      >
      > Therefore it is wise to never look at the chat page until your QSO is
      > complete, or you have given up...
      >
      > > 73, Russ K2TXB
      > >
      >

    • Randy Tipton
      When there is any douby it is best to refer back to the SOP. The SOP has been around a long time for Meteor Scatter operators. I feel we should all adhere not
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 8, 2009
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        When there is any douby it is best to refer back to the SOP. The SOP has
        been around
        a long time for Meteor Scatter operators. I feel we should all adhere not
        only to the SOP
        but also the operating suggestions given at the top of the PJ page. These
        page instructions
        are actually well thought out and enhance the pj process for all of us. (The
        PJ operating
        instructions was not part of this thed so just a side thought)

        One thing I believe should be changed is the Link found at the top of
        PJ page to the SOP. Contacts today are using FSK or JT6M modes and the link
        should be
        changed to ... http://www.qsl.net/w8wn/hscw/papers/fsk-sop.html If others
        agree, maybe Chris can make that change.

        Several years ago we simplified the SOP and several stations in the group
        assisted ...
        it is posted here... http://www.ykc.com/wa5ufh/Misc/ShortSOP.htm The intent
        was not to
        change a single element but to simplify it for newbie's.

        When you read the SOP there are a few exceptions for changing messages. They
        are related to message Tx2 and CQ. This relates to some of the discussion on
        going.

        Clearly the Grid in the CQ is for portable / MM stations.
        The Grid square is to be used as reports in contests.
        Tx2 Msg may be changed to shorten the msg length for low power stations.
        Both stations receive the "Roger" and it is suggested 'to be sure' by
        receiving it twice!

        The SOP recommendation for Low Power Stations copied...
        "Note on WSJT's FSK441 North American reporting: The #2 Standard Text Box
        defaults to "Firstcall report Secondcall report report" (e.g., K1JT 26 W8WN
        2626). The reason for this format is to allow monitoring stations to tell
        which station they're hearing. Since the pair of calls is the longest string
        of text to exchange, lower-power stations may find it advantageous to change
        this to "Firstcall report Secondcall report" or even "Firstcall Secondcall
        report."

        This change is definitely recommended for contests when the Grid Square is
        required for the report."

        (Note: I take advantage of the above, it has been helpful I believe
        especially on two meters.)

        Copied from the SOP:
        "Other sometimes-used exchanges:
        Burst length "S" report. Standard in North America since the 1950's for slow
        CW and later for SSB.
        Grid square. Required for most contests. Sometimes used by portable or /MM
        stations; however, on FSK441, it is becomming common for the portable or /MM
        station to include their current grid in the CQ . The grid square normally
        should not be used on HSMS for the report except for contests."

        Concerning sending the Grid in a CQ the SOP States...
        "CQ with GRID SQUARE - It is now common for /MM, /M, and portable stations
        (who may change locations) to include their Grid Square in the CQ. This
        enables the receiving stations to know the location of the portable/mobile
        station, and whether or not they need that particular grid square. Thus,
        W1LP/MM might call "CQ W1LP EL62". This is not recommended for fixed
        stations - it adds unnecessary information to the CQ, as the locations of
        most fixed stations are usually already known."

        Concerning the receipt of two "Rogers"
        Copied from the SOP:
        "When both get a pair of Rogers (you usually need at least two to be
        sure!), the QSO is officially complete. However, the other station will not
        know this. So it is customary to then send "73" to let the other station
        know that it's complete, even though the "73" is not required for a complete
        QSO."

        The Required Protocol is:
        REQUIREMENTS FOR A QSO:
        The same as for any mode of operation or propagation - an exchange of both
        call signs, an exchange of some type of information or report, and an
        exchange of confirmation of the same.
        When a station copies both calls, he sends calls and report.
        If he gets both calls and a report, he sends his report & Roger.
        If he gets report and Roger, he sends Rogers.
        When both get a pair of Rogers (you usually need at least two to be sure!),
        the QSO is officially complete. However, the other station will not know
        this. So it is customary to then send "73" to let the other station know
        that it's complete, even though the "73" is not required for a complete QSO.




        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Clay W7CE" <w7ce@...>
        To: <wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 9:17 AM
        Subject: Re: [wsjtgroup] Tx1 ... Why add to it?


        >> 1. Prior to receiving both calls, only send both calls (or CQ plus your
        >> call). *
        >>
        >> * For random contacts it is acceptable to send your grid with the CQ, but
        >> in
        >> that case the grid square must NEVER be used as the report.
        >>
        >> 73, Russ K2TXB
        >>
        >
        > Your explanation of how things should work implies that the grid reporting
        > option (necessary for contest Q's) can never be used if you sent your grid
        > with the CQ. In grid reporting, you report your grid in either TX2 or TX3
        > as part of the normal sequence. In either reporting system there is
        > nothing
        > wrong with sending your grid along with the CQ. The redundancy of sending
        > it with the CQ and then later with TX2 does not invalidate the contact or
        > make it confusing.
        >
        > Likewise, if you're in the normal reporting system, then sending your grid
        > along with TX1 has no impact on the remainder of the exchange. It's
        > simply
        > an extra piece of unrequired info. No different then sending "73 Tnx" for
        > TX5. It may require longer pings for a good decode, but that should be
        > left
        > up to the operators and the conditions to determine. I don't see any need
        > for a hard and fast rule here. I suppose some might be confused by this
        > (is
        > it TX1 normal report, or TX2 grid report?). However, if someone answers
        > my
        > "CQ W7CE CN87" with "W7CE K7*** DN13" this is no room for confusion. The
        > only valid possibility is that they are sending TX1, since TX2 can only be
        > sent after both calls have been copied.
        >
        > 73,
        > Clay W7CE
        >
        >
        >
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