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RE: [wsjtgroup] Tx1 ... Why add to it?

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  • Russ K2TXB
    Hi Randy. I agree with you 100%. Grid square should never be included in the TX1 message. And I think the main reasons people do it are either that they are
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 8, 2009
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      Hi Randy. I agree with you 100%. Grid square should never be included in the TX1 message.  And I think the main reasons people do it are either that they are copying someone else who does it, or that they are trying to 'shorten' the QSO by sending the report along with the calls.  But the accepted format for making a contact in this country is to only send the report when you have successfully copied both his call and your call.  Thus sending the report prior to the reception of calls is totally confusing to those who try to abide by the rules.  The rules are simple:
       
      1. Prior to receiving both calls, only send both calls (or CQ plus your call). *
      2. After receiving both calls (but not a report) only send both calls plus report.
      3. After receiving both calls and the report, send only RRR.
      4. When both stations receive RRR, the contact is complete.
       
      The exchange of 73 facilitates making sure that the RRR has been received by both.  If you receive 73 then it is clear that the other station has received your rogers.  That makes it easier to know when it is ok to quit.  But it is in no way necessary to send or receive 73 for it to be a good contact.  If you receive a QSL card from the other station then that is your confirmation that he received your RRR.  Of course there are numerous other ways to find out if the RRR's were received, and all of them are legal and above board.  Some of those methods are via chat page, by cluster, by email, by telephone, etc.  But you should never check those channels until you have received RRR yourself.  Why not?  Because if you check the chat page when you have not received RRR, and you see that your partner is saying he received the RRR, then you have received part of the necessary QSO information via a means that is not part of the legal QSO requirements.  At that point it is a busted contact and must be done over.
       
      Therefore it is wise to never look at the chat page until your QSO is complete, or you have given up...
       
      * For random contacts it is acceptable to send your grid with the CQ, but in that case the grid square must NEVER be used as the report.
       
      73, Russ K2TXB 


      From: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Randy Tipton
      Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 2:47 PM
      To: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [wsjtgroup] Tx1 ... Why add to it?

       

      Not a big issue but lets consider this...

      The use of the "Grid" square in Tx1 message has fooled me a few times.
      The SOP & messages as designed are supposed to be bullet proof. That is
      there should be no reason to doubt any message received provided the SOP
      is being followed.

      I know several are using the "Grid" format in Tx1. I am not "picking on
      anyone" but am questioning the practice. (If it is good we should all be
      using it) Could be I am missing something and it is a good thing adding
      to messages. I am interested in hearing what others think.

      I believe we are 'drifting' away from the SOP and that I believe will bring
      question to our contacts and accomplishments.

      Lets say a station K5ME is sending CQ. I answer him with Tx1. After 20
      minutes I receive partial calls and 10 minutes latter I receive his call
      plus grid.
      It might look like this...
      KGME WA5UFH (First Decode after 20 minutes or more)
      latter..
      K5ME EM00 (second ping received ...)

      Now I think, ok he is using "Grid" as report. A complete message would
      be in my mind at the time that he is sending ...
      WA5UFH EM00 K5ME EM00EM00

      I now have both calls and it appears he is sending something different. I
      really don't know what is going on except to assume he is using "Grids"
      as reports or he has a "non-standard" message Tx1entered.

      If I assumed the EM00 was his report and start sending His Rgr plus Report I
      am wrong... he is still sending Tx1 with a "non-standard msg" ... busted
      contact...

      I assume K5ME is "Portable" or "Using Grids as a Reports ... "This should
      not happen... If I assume it is part of msg tx2 them I move to tx3 ...
      bottom line is a busted contact.

      I believe the use of "Grid" in Tx1 serves no purpose. If the contact is a
      schedule the other station already knows your Grid. If a Random contact
      it doesn't matter since the station decoding already has a good enough
      antenna az direction to complete a qso and decode because he already
      has decoded both calls. Antenna az pointing is not that critical but that is
      another issue.

      The use of grids as a report does have a place in HSMS. I believe it has two
      good uses.

      Grids are used as reports in most contests and by rovers but notice they are
      not necessary in message Tx1 even for these situations. Not all rovers are
      using PJ and the Grid as a Report works great to let the other person know
      I am possibly in a new grid or am a new initial contact for them while
      providing
      that "Unknown" piece of information required for a "contact". In this case
      the
      standard reports 26 and 27 are not exchanged.

      During contests it is a required part of the contact exchange so using
      it as a "Rpt" serves both purposes. I have worked N5SIX rover in many grids
      and I captured all those grids in his "Report" or "CQ". Rovers may wish to
      use their grid
      in a CQ but it can cause confusion if repeated in Tx1.

      With six meters there might be less concern for message length but the
      SOP should be followed. For two meters the message length is more important.
      I have had busted contacts on two meters because I never got Both Calls but
      did get a single call with a "Grid"! Receiving A5UFH K5ME EM00 is
      frustrating after running 20 - 30 minutes into a schedule. I needed both
      calls
      and had the ping width large enough to get the missing "W" but instead I got
      a "Grid".

      The below is copied from the SOP:

      "REQUIREMENTS FOR A QSO:
      The same as for any mode of operation or propagation - an exchange of both
      call signs, an exchange of some type of information or report, and an
      exchange of confirmation of reception of the report or information. "

      (Somewhere the ARRL has documented what constitutes a contact. I could
      not find that definition but the above is close to its wording.

      The "Some type of information" could be a wx report, single report, first
      name, State etc. but with HSMS using FSK441 it is 26 or 27. The exception is
      during a contest requiring grid square exchange or maybe a portable station
      not using
      PJ. Rovers or Portable stations using "PJ assist" generally use standard
      messages
      and share the Grid location on the logger.

      When using Grid as a report, only use the first (4) characters. I have
      copied
      some who sent (6)! Example: R EL19pa R EL19pa ... too much hi

      I believe we should reframe from using the Grid in Tx1 because it clearly
      is not needed or required and can only add confusion. I would be interested
      in seeing how others feel about this issue.

      We all have taken the liberty of using the 73 message or after the final
      Rogers are received by both stations to send short messages. TNX QSO
      or NICE PINGS etc.

      My thoughts on Tx1 msg's in a nut shell... Use only the Tx1 canned message
      for all situations.

      Tip

    • Clay W7CE
      ... Your explanation of how things should work implies that the grid reporting option (necessary for contest Q s) can never be used if you sent your grid with
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 8, 2009
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        > 1. Prior to receiving both calls, only send both calls (or CQ plus your
        > call). *
        >
        > * For random contacts it is acceptable to send your grid with the CQ, but
        > in
        > that case the grid square must NEVER be used as the report.
        >
        > 73, Russ K2TXB
        >

        Your explanation of how things should work implies that the grid reporting
        option (necessary for contest Q's) can never be used if you sent your grid
        with the CQ. In grid reporting, you report your grid in either TX2 or TX3
        as part of the normal sequence. In either reporting system there is nothing
        wrong with sending your grid along with the CQ. The redundancy of sending
        it with the CQ and then later with TX2 does not invalidate the contact or
        make it confusing.

        Likewise, if you're in the normal reporting system, then sending your grid
        along with TX1 has no impact on the remainder of the exchange. It's simply
        an extra piece of unrequired info. No different then sending "73 Tnx" for
        TX5. It may require longer pings for a good decode, but that should be left
        up to the operators and the conditions to determine. I don't see any need
        for a hard and fast rule here. I suppose some might be confused by this (is
        it TX1 normal report, or TX2 grid report?). However, if someone answers my
        "CQ W7CE CN87" with "W7CE K7*** DN13" this is no room for confusion. The
        only valid possibility is that they are sending TX1, since TX2 can only be
        sent after both calls have been copied.

        73,
        Clay W7CE
      • nz3m_dave
        Only one received RRR makes a complete QSO. If you are sending RRR and the other station reports on the chat that he received it, it s a QSO. I don t know
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 8, 2009
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          Only one received RRR makes a complete QSO. If you are sending RRR and the other station reports on the chat that he received it, it's a QSO. I' don't know what you are trying to say here.

          Dave NZ3M



          --- In wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com, "Russ K2TXB" <k2txb@...> wrote:
          But you should never check those channels until you have
          received RRR yourself. Why not? Because if you check the chat page when you have not received RRR, and you see that your partner is saying he received the RRR, then you have received part of the necessary QSO information via a means that is not part of the legal QSO requirements. At that point it is a busted contact and must be done over.

          Therefore it is wise to never look at the chat page until your QSO is
          complete, or you have given up...

          > 73, Russ K2TXB
          >
        • Russ K2TXB
          Clay said: Your explanation of how things should work implies that the grid reporting option (necessary for contest Q s) can never be used if you sent your
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 8, 2009
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            Clay said:
             
            Your explanation of how things should work implies that the grid reporting
            option (necessary for contest Q's) can never be used if you sent your grid
            with the CQ. In grid reporting, you report your grid in either TX2 or TX3
            as part of the normal sequence. In either reporting system there is nothing
            wrong with sending your grid along with the CQ. The redundancy of sending
            it with the CQ and then later with TX2 does not invalidate the contact or
            make it confusing.
            It can.  The other station already knows your report before he ever receives it from you, if he copied it with your CQ. This means that if he only copies part of the grid, he might consider he has it and skip directly to RRR.  Of course you are right if you assume that everyone will patiently wait until they have recevied the grid again, but how many contesters have that patience in the heat of the contest.  I never send my grid with CQ in a contest.  Not necessary since it is the report too.
             
            I think that too many operators are sliding down the slippery slope of taking shortcuts with the procedure for contacts.  Just look at HF DXing!  I would bet that 60% of contacts made are not valid due to the loose procedures used.  (If you do not understand what I mean, I will provide examples...)  I'd hate to see VHF operators start doing the same things.  Strict adherence to the rules is the best answer.
             
            73, Russ K2TXB


            From: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Clay W7CE
            Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 10:17 AM
            To: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [wsjtgroup] Tx1 ... Why add to it?

             

            > 1. Prior to receiving both calls, only send both calls (or CQ plus your
            > call). *
            >
            > * For random contacts it is acceptable to send your grid with the CQ, but
            > in
            > that case the grid square must NEVER be used as the report.
            >
            > 73, Russ K2TXB
            >

            Your explanation of how things should work implies that the grid reporting
            option (necessary for contest Q's) can never be used if you sent your grid
            with the CQ. In grid reporting, you report your grid in either TX2 or TX3
            as part of the normal sequence. In either reporting system there is nothing
            wrong with sending your grid along with the CQ. The redundancy of sending
            it with the CQ and then later with TX2 does not invalidate the contact or
            make it confusing.

            Likewise, if you're in the normal reporting system, then sending your grid
            along with TX1 has no impact on the remainder of the exchange. It's simply
            an extra piece of unrequired info. No different then sending "73 Tnx" for
            TX5. It may require longer pings for a good decode, but that should be left
            up to the operators and the conditions to determine. I don't see any need
            for a hard and fast rule here. I suppose some might be confused by this (is
            it TX1 normal report, or TX2 grid report?). However, if someone answers my
            "CQ W7CE CN87" with "W7CE K7*** DN13" this is no room for confusion. The
            only valid possibility is that they are sending TX1, since TX2 can only be
            sent after both calls have been copied.

            73,
            Clay W7CE

          • Russ K2TXB
            Dave said: Only one received RRR makes a complete QSO. If you are sending RRR and the other station reports on the chat that he received it, it s a QSO. I
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 8, 2009
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              Dave said:
               
              Only one received RRR makes a complete QSO. If you are sending RRR and the other station reports on the chat that he received it, it's a QSO. I' don't know what you are trying to say here.

              That is not right.  The rules clearly state that BOTH stations must receive rogers in order for the contact to be valid.  If you receive RRR and have not yet sent them, the contact is not complete and does not count.  Further if you receive RRR and send your own RRR, but the other station never copies it, the contact is likewise void.
               
              I once almost completed a meteor scatter contact with a station in Colorado, a distance of over 1900 miles from my FM29 location.  It would have been a world record 2 meter MS contact, and would probably have stood for many many years.  But I never received his RRR.  Everything else was complete, we had both calls each way, full reports, and he got my RRR.  I can assure you that it was very tempting to claim it as a complete QSO - especially as I had been trying to make that path for many years.  But it never happened and most likely never will (for me).  That is the nature of meteor scatter - you can not make all the contacts, and if you want to be proud of the contacts you have made it is essential that, in your own heart, you know that every claimed QSO was done with strict adherence to the rules and that no one can legitimately question your accomplishment.
               
              73, Russ K2TXB



              From: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of nz3m_dave
              Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 10:20 AM
              To: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [wsjtgroup] Re: Tx1 ... Why add to it?

               

              Only one received RRR makes a complete QSO. If you are sending RRR and the other station reports on the chat that he received it, it's a QSO. I' don't know what you are trying to say here.

              Dave NZ3M

              --- In wsjtgroup@yahoogrou ps.com, "Russ K2TXB" <k2txb@...> wrote:
              But you should never check those channels until you have
              received RRR yourself. Why not? Because if you check the chat page when you have not received RRR, and you see that your partner is saying he received the RRR, then you have received part of the necessary QSO information via a means that is not part of the legal QSO requirements. At that point it is a busted contact and must be done over.

              Therefore it is wise to never look at the chat page until your QSO is
              complete, or you have given up...

              > 73, Russ K2TXB
              >

            • nz3m_dave
              Russ, TX3 is the first roger (R26). Both stations don t need to receive RRR or TX4 73 Dave NZ3M
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 8, 2009
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                Russ,

                TX3 is the first "roger" (R26). Both stations don't need to receive RRR or TX4

                73
                Dave NZ3M





                --- In wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com, "Russ K2TXB" <k2txb@...> wrote:
                >
                > Dave said:
                >
                > Only one received RRR makes a complete QSO. If you are sending RRR and the
                > other station reports on the chat that he received it, it's a QSO. I' don't
                > know what you are trying to say here.
                >
                > That is not right. The rules clearly state that BOTH stations must receive
                > rogers in order for the contact to be valid. If you receive RRR and have
                > not yet sent them, the contact is not complete and does not count. Further
                > if you receive RRR and send your own RRR, but the other station never copies
                > it, the contact is likewise void.
                >
                > I once almost completed a meteor scatter contact with a station in Colorado,
                > a distance of over 1900 miles from my FM29 location. It would have been a
                > world record 2 meter MS contact, and would probably have stood for many many
                > years. But I never received his RRR. Everything else was complete, we had
                > both calls each way, full reports, and he got my RRR. I can assure you that
                > it was very tempting to claim it as a complete QSO - especially as I had
                > been trying to make that path for many years. But it never happened and
                > most likely never will (for me). That is the nature of meteor scatter - you
                > can not make all the contacts, and if you want to be proud of the contacts
                > you have made it is essential that, in your own heart, you know that every
                > claimed QSO was done with strict adherence to the rules and that no one can
                > legitimately question your accomplishment.
                >
                > 73, Russ K2TXB
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > _____
                >
                > From: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                > Of nz3m_dave
                > Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 10:20 AM
                > To: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [wsjtgroup] Re: Tx1 ... Why add to it?
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Only one received RRR makes a complete QSO. If you are sending RRR and the
                > other station reports on the chat that he received it, it's a QSO. I' don't
                > know what you are trying to say here.
                >
                > Dave NZ3M
                >
                > --- In wsjtgroup@yahoogrou <mailto:wsjtgroup%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com,
                > "Russ K2TXB" <k2txb@> wrote:
                > But you should never check those channels until you have
                > received RRR yourself. Why not? Because if you check the chat page when you
                > have not received RRR, and you see that your partner is saying he received
                > the RRR, then you have received part of the necessary QSO information via a
                > means that is not part of the legal QSO requirements. At that point it is a
                > busted contact and must be done over.
                >
                > Therefore it is wise to never look at the chat page until your QSO is
                > complete, or you have given up...
                >
                > > 73, Russ K2TXB
                > >
                >
              • Bill W5WVO
                Reading through this thread, this is clearly the misunderstanding that Russ has. Both stations do not need to (nor should they) send every message. The
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 8, 2009
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                  Reading through this thread, this is clearly the misunderstanding that Russ has. Both stations do not need to (nor should they) send every message. The messages alternate. Only one station sends R26 (which contains that station's "roger"). Then the other station sends RRR. And that's it. It's a QSO.
                   
                  If you press the F5 key in WSJT, you will see Joe Taylor's very clear explanation of who sends what when.
                   
                  Bill W5WVO
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: nz3m_dave
                  Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 11:09 AM
                  Subject: [wsjtgroup] Re: Tx1 ... Why add to it?

                   

                  Russ,

                  TX3 is the first "roger" (R26). Both stations don't need to receive RRR or TX4

                  73
                  Dave NZ3M

                  --- In wsjtgroup@yahoogrou ps.com, "Russ K2TXB" <k2txb@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dave said:
                  >
                  > Only one received RRR makes a complete QSO. If you are sending RRR and the
                  > other station reports on the chat that he received it, it's a QSO. I' don't
                  > know what you are trying to say here.
                  >
                  > That is not right. The rules clearly state that BOTH stations must receive
                  > rogers in order for the contact to be valid. If you receive RRR and have
                  > not yet sent them, the contact is not complete and does not count. Further
                  > if you receive RRR and send your own RRR, but the other station never copies
                  > it, the contact is likewise void.
                  >
                  > I once almost completed a meteor scatter contact with a station in Colorado,
                  > a distance of over 1900 miles from my FM29 location. It would have been a
                  > world record 2 meter MS contact, and would probably have stood for many many
                  > years. But I never received his RRR. Everything else was complete, we had
                  > both calls each way, full reports, and he got my RRR. I can assure you that
                  > it was very tempting to claim it as a complete QSO - especially as I had
                  > been trying to make that path for many years. But it never happened and
                  > most likely never will (for me). That is the nature of meteor scatter - you
                  > can not make all the contacts, and if you want to be proud of the contacts
                  > you have made it is essential that, in your own heart, you know that every
                  > claimed QSO was done with strict adherence to the rules and that no one can
                  > legitimately question your accomplishment.
                  >
                  > 73, Russ K2TXB
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > _____
                  >
                  > From: wsjtgroup@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf
                  > Of nz3m_dave
                  > Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 10:20 AM
                  > To: wsjtgroup@yahoogrou ps.com
                  > Subject: [wsjtgroup] Re: Tx1 ... Why add to it?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Only one received RRR makes a complete QSO. If you are sending RRR and the
                  > other station reports on the chat that he received it, it's a QSO. I' don't
                  > know what you are trying to say here.
                  >
                  > Dave NZ3M
                  >
                  > --- In wsjtgroup@yahoogrou <mailto:wsjtgroup% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com,
                  > "Russ K2TXB" <k2txb@> wrote:
                  > But you should never check those channels until you have
                  > received RRR yourself. Why not? Because if you check the chat page when you
                  > have not received RRR, and you see that your partner is saying he received
                  > the RRR, then you have received part of the necessary QSO information via a
                  > means that is not part of the legal QSO requirements. At that point it is a
                  > busted contact and must be done over.
                  >
                  > Therefore it is wise to never look at the chat page until your QSO is
                  > complete, or you have given up...
                  >
                  > > 73, Russ K2TXB
                  > >
                  >

                • Russ K2TXB
                  Bill wrote: Reading through this thread, this is clearly the misunderstanding that Russ has. Both stations do not need to (nor should they) send every message.
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 8, 2009
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                    Bill wrote:
                     
                    Reading through this thread, this is clearly the misunderstanding that Russ has. Both stations do not need to (nor should they) send every message. The messages alternate. Only one station sends R26 (which contains that station's "roger"). Then the other station sends RRR. And that's it. It's a QSO.
                     
                    Oh Boy!  Sorry Bill and others.  I forget that I have not been too active here, and on the air, since my move in 2007.  So I could not rightfully expect you to know of my history or accomplishments.  As one who started trying HSMS in the 1970's, using slowed down and speeded up tape recorders to send and receive CW at a couple of hundred WPM, and was very active in with the first HSMS computer programs, and who worked his way through all of the various renditions of FSK441, once it became available, I can assure you that I know exactly what the procedures are, what the rules are, and how to use them to best advantage.
                     
                    That said, I can see nothing in my previous comments to lead anyone to think that I think that every message has to be used by both stations.  Believe me, I know very well that is untrue.  Perhaps your misunderstanding arises from my use of RRR to represent sending of rogers.  OF COURSE sending R26 also sends rogers.  R26 means, exactly, RRR (got your report{and calls}), and your report is 26.  So, of course, when you receive R26 you are receiving the RRR signal!!!!!
                     
                    However one person I replied to said that it was good enough that only one side of the QSO received RRR.  That is completely untrue.
                     
                    Regards, Russ K2TXB   (FM29PT - WAS, WAC, 44 DXCC, 419 Grids, 597 MS contacts - all on 2 meters - now moved to FN20MB).
                     
                     


                    From: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill W5WVO
                    Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 1:30 PM
                    To: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com; nz3m_dave
                    Subject: Re: [wsjtgroup] Re: Tx1 ... Why add to it?

                     

                    Reading through this thread, this is clearly the misunderstanding that Russ has. Both stations do not need to (nor should they) send every message. The messages alternate. Only one station sends R26 (which contains that station's "roger"). Then the other station sends RRR. And that's it. It's a QSO.
                     
                    If you press the F5 key in WSJT, you will see Joe Taylor's very clear explanation of who sends what when.
                     
                    Bill W5WVO
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: nz3m_dave
                    Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 11:09 AM
                    Subject: [wsjtgroup] Re: Tx1 ... Why add to it?

                     

                    Russ,

                    TX3 is the first "roger" (R26). Both stations don't need to receive RRR or TX4

                    73
                    Dave NZ3M

                    --- In wsjtgroup@yahoogrou ps.com, "Russ K2TXB" <k2txb@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Dave said:
                    >
                    > Only one received RRR makes a complete QSO. If you are sending RRR and the
                    > other station reports on the chat that he received it, it's a QSO. I' don't
                    > know what you are trying to say here.
                    >
                    > That is not right. The rules clearly state that BOTH stations must receive
                    > rogers in order for the contact to be valid. If you receive RRR and have
                    > not yet sent them, the contact is not complete and does not count. Further
                    > if you receive RRR and send your own RRR, but the other station never copies
                    > it, the contact is likewise void.
                    >
                    > I once almost completed a meteor scatter contact with a station in Colorado,
                    > a distance of over 1900 miles from my FM29 location. It would have been a
                    > world record 2 meter MS contact, and would probably have stood for many many
                    > years. But I never received his RRR. Everything else was complete, we had
                    > both calls each way, full reports, and he got my RRR. I can assure you that
                    > it was very tempting to claim it as a complete QSO - especially as I had
                    > been trying to make that path for many years. But it never happened and
                    > most likely never will (for me). That is the nature of meteor scatter - you
                    > can not make all the contacts, and if you want to be proud of the contacts
                    > you have made it is essential that, in your own heart, you know that every
                    > claimed QSO was done with strict adherence to the rules and that no one can
                    > legitimately question your accomplishment.
                    >
                    > 73, Russ K2TXB
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > _____
                    >
                    > From: wsjtgroup@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf
                    > Of nz3m_dave
                    > Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 10:20 AM
                    > To: wsjtgroup@yahoogrou ps.com
                    > Subject: [wsjtgroup] Re: Tx1 ... Why add to it?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Only one received RRR makes a complete QSO. If you are sending RRR and the
                    > other station reports on the chat that he received it, it's a QSO. I' don't
                    > know what you are trying to say here.
                    >
                    > Dave NZ3M
                    >
                    > --- In wsjtgroup@yahoogrou <mailto:wsjtgroup% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com,
                    > "Russ K2TXB" <k2txb@> wrote:
                    > But you should never check those channels until you have
                    > received RRR yourself. Why not? Because if you check the chat page when you
                    > have not received RRR, and you see that your partner is saying he received
                    > the RRR, then you have received part of the necessary QSO information via a
                    > means that is not part of the legal QSO requirements. At that point it is a
                    > busted contact and must be done over.
                    >
                    > Therefore it is wise to never look at the chat page until your QSO is
                    > complete, or you have given up...
                    >
                    > > 73, Russ K2TXB
                    > >
                    >

                  • Randy Tipton
                    When there is any douby it is best to refer back to the SOP. The SOP has been around a long time for Meteor Scatter operators. I feel we should all adhere not
                    Message 9 of 18 , Aug 8, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      When there is any douby it is best to refer back to the SOP. The SOP has
                      been around
                      a long time for Meteor Scatter operators. I feel we should all adhere not
                      only to the SOP
                      but also the operating suggestions given at the top of the PJ page. These
                      page instructions
                      are actually well thought out and enhance the pj process for all of us. (The
                      PJ operating
                      instructions was not part of this thed so just a side thought)

                      One thing I believe should be changed is the Link found at the top of
                      PJ page to the SOP. Contacts today are using FSK or JT6M modes and the link
                      should be
                      changed to ... http://www.qsl.net/w8wn/hscw/papers/fsk-sop.html If others
                      agree, maybe Chris can make that change.

                      Several years ago we simplified the SOP and several stations in the group
                      assisted ...
                      it is posted here... http://www.ykc.com/wa5ufh/Misc/ShortSOP.htm The intent
                      was not to
                      change a single element but to simplify it for newbie's.

                      When you read the SOP there are a few exceptions for changing messages. They
                      are related to message Tx2 and CQ. This relates to some of the discussion on
                      going.

                      Clearly the Grid in the CQ is for portable / MM stations.
                      The Grid square is to be used as reports in contests.
                      Tx2 Msg may be changed to shorten the msg length for low power stations.
                      Both stations receive the "Roger" and it is suggested 'to be sure' by
                      receiving it twice!

                      The SOP recommendation for Low Power Stations copied...
                      "Note on WSJT's FSK441 North American reporting: The #2 Standard Text Box
                      defaults to "Firstcall report Secondcall report report" (e.g., K1JT 26 W8WN
                      2626). The reason for this format is to allow monitoring stations to tell
                      which station they're hearing. Since the pair of calls is the longest string
                      of text to exchange, lower-power stations may find it advantageous to change
                      this to "Firstcall report Secondcall report" or even "Firstcall Secondcall
                      report."

                      This change is definitely recommended for contests when the Grid Square is
                      required for the report."

                      (Note: I take advantage of the above, it has been helpful I believe
                      especially on two meters.)

                      Copied from the SOP:
                      "Other sometimes-used exchanges:
                      Burst length "S" report. Standard in North America since the 1950's for slow
                      CW and later for SSB.
                      Grid square. Required for most contests. Sometimes used by portable or /MM
                      stations; however, on FSK441, it is becomming common for the portable or /MM
                      station to include their current grid in the CQ . The grid square normally
                      should not be used on HSMS for the report except for contests."

                      Concerning sending the Grid in a CQ the SOP States...
                      "CQ with GRID SQUARE - It is now common for /MM, /M, and portable stations
                      (who may change locations) to include their Grid Square in the CQ. This
                      enables the receiving stations to know the location of the portable/mobile
                      station, and whether or not they need that particular grid square. Thus,
                      W1LP/MM might call "CQ W1LP EL62". This is not recommended for fixed
                      stations - it adds unnecessary information to the CQ, as the locations of
                      most fixed stations are usually already known."

                      Concerning the receipt of two "Rogers"
                      Copied from the SOP:
                      "When both get a pair of Rogers (you usually need at least two to be
                      sure!), the QSO is officially complete. However, the other station will not
                      know this. So it is customary to then send "73" to let the other station
                      know that it's complete, even though the "73" is not required for a complete
                      QSO."

                      The Required Protocol is:
                      REQUIREMENTS FOR A QSO:
                      The same as for any mode of operation or propagation - an exchange of both
                      call signs, an exchange of some type of information or report, and an
                      exchange of confirmation of the same.
                      When a station copies both calls, he sends calls and report.
                      If he gets both calls and a report, he sends his report & Roger.
                      If he gets report and Roger, he sends Rogers.
                      When both get a pair of Rogers (you usually need at least two to be sure!),
                      the QSO is officially complete. However, the other station will not know
                      this. So it is customary to then send "73" to let the other station know
                      that it's complete, even though the "73" is not required for a complete QSO.




                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Clay W7CE" <w7ce@...>
                      To: <wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 9:17 AM
                      Subject: Re: [wsjtgroup] Tx1 ... Why add to it?


                      >> 1. Prior to receiving both calls, only send both calls (or CQ plus your
                      >> call). *
                      >>
                      >> * For random contacts it is acceptable to send your grid with the CQ, but
                      >> in
                      >> that case the grid square must NEVER be used as the report.
                      >>
                      >> 73, Russ K2TXB
                      >>
                      >
                      > Your explanation of how things should work implies that the grid reporting
                      > option (necessary for contest Q's) can never be used if you sent your grid
                      > with the CQ. In grid reporting, you report your grid in either TX2 or TX3
                      > as part of the normal sequence. In either reporting system there is
                      > nothing
                      > wrong with sending your grid along with the CQ. The redundancy of sending
                      > it with the CQ and then later with TX2 does not invalidate the contact or
                      > make it confusing.
                      >
                      > Likewise, if you're in the normal reporting system, then sending your grid
                      > along with TX1 has no impact on the remainder of the exchange. It's
                      > simply
                      > an extra piece of unrequired info. No different then sending "73 Tnx" for
                      > TX5. It may require longer pings for a good decode, but that should be
                      > left
                      > up to the operators and the conditions to determine. I don't see any need
                      > for a hard and fast rule here. I suppose some might be confused by this
                      > (is
                      > it TX1 normal report, or TX2 grid report?). However, if someone answers
                      > my
                      > "CQ W7CE CN87" with "W7CE K7*** DN13" this is no room for confusion. The
                      > only valid possibility is that they are sending TX1, since TX2 can only be
                      > sent after both calls have been copied.
                      >
                      > 73,
                      > Clay W7CE
                      >
                      >
                      >
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