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Re: Tx1 ... Why add to it? Why not?

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  • Dave Miller
    Tip, r u keeping score on this one. I have absolutely no problem with grids in a CQ, in fact I prefer them for proper beam positioning. I don t send grids
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 2, 2009
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      Tip,

      r u keeping score on this one. I have absolutely no problem with grids in a CQ, in fact I prefer them for proper beam positioning. I don't send grids in TX1 cause they are not part of the SOP template and might cause confusion at this point. But what is the consensus here concerning the report, grid report or signal report or both?

      Dave N9SS
    • Randy Tipton
      Dave, no score keeping ... It will always be an option I suppose that the user has. In set-up /options most will probably stick with the reports because it
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 3, 2009
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        Dave, no score keeping ... It will always be an option I suppose that the
        user has. In set-up /options most will probably stick with the "reports"
        because it is the default when the program is first loaded and what the
        majority are using.


        I accept "Grids" as the unknown piece of information for the contact.

        If I am running a sked that will be "new / special to me" I will want to use
        the single tone short hand messages. The Grid as report might be the cause
        of a busted contact? We have all noticed that when we get to the single tone
        messages the contact progresses faster. i.e. more pings are heard.

        My concern was using what is an "option for reports" in Tx 1 message Grids.
        I have no problem with the Grid in the CQ especially for rovers / portable
        stations without PJ assistance. But if I was calling CQ on two meters I
        personally would not use it because of the added text length that must be
        decoded. CQ D7 WA5UFH EL19 vs. CQ D7 WA5UFH

        So no score card Dave, but I do hope those using the Grid in Tx1 give it
        some consideration. Thanks for your comments.

        Tip



        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Dave Miller" <n9ssham@...>
        To: <wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 10:10 PM
        Subject: [wsjtgroup] Re: Tx1 ... Why add to it? Why not?


        > Tip,
        >
        > r u keeping score on this one. I have absolutely no problem with grids in
        > a CQ, in fact I prefer them for proper beam positioning. I don't send
        > grids in TX1 cause they are not part of the SOP template and might cause
        > confusion at this point. But what is the consensus here concerning the
        > report, grid report or signal report or both?
        >
        > Dave N9SS
        >
        >
        >
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      • Russ K2TXB
        Hi Randy. I agree with you 100%. Grid square should never be included in the TX1 message. And I think the main reasons people do it are either that they are
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 8, 2009
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          Hi Randy. I agree with you 100%. Grid square should never be included in the TX1 message.  And I think the main reasons people do it are either that they are copying someone else who does it, or that they are trying to 'shorten' the QSO by sending the report along with the calls.  But the accepted format for making a contact in this country is to only send the report when you have successfully copied both his call and your call.  Thus sending the report prior to the reception of calls is totally confusing to those who try to abide by the rules.  The rules are simple:
           
          1. Prior to receiving both calls, only send both calls (or CQ plus your call). *
          2. After receiving both calls (but not a report) only send both calls plus report.
          3. After receiving both calls and the report, send only RRR.
          4. When both stations receive RRR, the contact is complete.
           
          The exchange of 73 facilitates making sure that the RRR has been received by both.  If you receive 73 then it is clear that the other station has received your rogers.  That makes it easier to know when it is ok to quit.  But it is in no way necessary to send or receive 73 for it to be a good contact.  If you receive a QSL card from the other station then that is your confirmation that he received your RRR.  Of course there are numerous other ways to find out if the RRR's were received, and all of them are legal and above board.  Some of those methods are via chat page, by cluster, by email, by telephone, etc.  But you should never check those channels until you have received RRR yourself.  Why not?  Because if you check the chat page when you have not received RRR, and you see that your partner is saying he received the RRR, then you have received part of the necessary QSO information via a means that is not part of the legal QSO requirements.  At that point it is a busted contact and must be done over.
           
          Therefore it is wise to never look at the chat page until your QSO is complete, or you have given up...
           
          * For random contacts it is acceptable to send your grid with the CQ, but in that case the grid square must NEVER be used as the report.
           
          73, Russ K2TXB 


          From: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Randy Tipton
          Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 2:47 PM
          To: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [wsjtgroup] Tx1 ... Why add to it?

           

          Not a big issue but lets consider this...

          The use of the "Grid" square in Tx1 message has fooled me a few times.
          The SOP & messages as designed are supposed to be bullet proof. That is
          there should be no reason to doubt any message received provided the SOP
          is being followed.

          I know several are using the "Grid" format in Tx1. I am not "picking on
          anyone" but am questioning the practice. (If it is good we should all be
          using it) Could be I am missing something and it is a good thing adding
          to messages. I am interested in hearing what others think.

          I believe we are 'drifting' away from the SOP and that I believe will bring
          question to our contacts and accomplishments.

          Lets say a station K5ME is sending CQ. I answer him with Tx1. After 20
          minutes I receive partial calls and 10 minutes latter I receive his call
          plus grid.
          It might look like this...
          KGME WA5UFH (First Decode after 20 minutes or more)
          latter..
          K5ME EM00 (second ping received ...)

          Now I think, ok he is using "Grid" as report. A complete message would
          be in my mind at the time that he is sending ...
          WA5UFH EM00 K5ME EM00EM00

          I now have both calls and it appears he is sending something different. I
          really don't know what is going on except to assume he is using "Grids"
          as reports or he has a "non-standard" message Tx1entered.

          If I assumed the EM00 was his report and start sending His Rgr plus Report I
          am wrong... he is still sending Tx1 with a "non-standard msg" ... busted
          contact...

          I assume K5ME is "Portable" or "Using Grids as a Reports ... "This should
          not happen... If I assume it is part of msg tx2 them I move to tx3 ...
          bottom line is a busted contact.

          I believe the use of "Grid" in Tx1 serves no purpose. If the contact is a
          schedule the other station already knows your Grid. If a Random contact
          it doesn't matter since the station decoding already has a good enough
          antenna az direction to complete a qso and decode because he already
          has decoded both calls. Antenna az pointing is not that critical but that is
          another issue.

          The use of grids as a report does have a place in HSMS. I believe it has two
          good uses.

          Grids are used as reports in most contests and by rovers but notice they are
          not necessary in message Tx1 even for these situations. Not all rovers are
          using PJ and the Grid as a Report works great to let the other person know
          I am possibly in a new grid or am a new initial contact for them while
          providing
          that "Unknown" piece of information required for a "contact". In this case
          the
          standard reports 26 and 27 are not exchanged.

          During contests it is a required part of the contact exchange so using
          it as a "Rpt" serves both purposes. I have worked N5SIX rover in many grids
          and I captured all those grids in his "Report" or "CQ". Rovers may wish to
          use their grid
          in a CQ but it can cause confusion if repeated in Tx1.

          With six meters there might be less concern for message length but the
          SOP should be followed. For two meters the message length is more important.
          I have had busted contacts on two meters because I never got Both Calls but
          did get a single call with a "Grid"! Receiving A5UFH K5ME EM00 is
          frustrating after running 20 - 30 minutes into a schedule. I needed both
          calls
          and had the ping width large enough to get the missing "W" but instead I got
          a "Grid".

          The below is copied from the SOP:

          "REQUIREMENTS FOR A QSO:
          The same as for any mode of operation or propagation - an exchange of both
          call signs, an exchange of some type of information or report, and an
          exchange of confirmation of reception of the report or information. "

          (Somewhere the ARRL has documented what constitutes a contact. I could
          not find that definition but the above is close to its wording.

          The "Some type of information" could be a wx report, single report, first
          name, State etc. but with HSMS using FSK441 it is 26 or 27. The exception is
          during a contest requiring grid square exchange or maybe a portable station
          not using
          PJ. Rovers or Portable stations using "PJ assist" generally use standard
          messages
          and share the Grid location on the logger.

          When using Grid as a report, only use the first (4) characters. I have
          copied
          some who sent (6)! Example: R EL19pa R EL19pa ... too much hi

          I believe we should reframe from using the Grid in Tx1 because it clearly
          is not needed or required and can only add confusion. I would be interested
          in seeing how others feel about this issue.

          We all have taken the liberty of using the 73 message or after the final
          Rogers are received by both stations to send short messages. TNX QSO
          or NICE PINGS etc.

          My thoughts on Tx1 msg's in a nut shell... Use only the Tx1 canned message
          for all situations.

          Tip

        • Clay W7CE
          ... Your explanation of how things should work implies that the grid reporting option (necessary for contest Q s) can never be used if you sent your grid with
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 8, 2009
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            > 1. Prior to receiving both calls, only send both calls (or CQ plus your
            > call). *
            >
            > * For random contacts it is acceptable to send your grid with the CQ, but
            > in
            > that case the grid square must NEVER be used as the report.
            >
            > 73, Russ K2TXB
            >

            Your explanation of how things should work implies that the grid reporting
            option (necessary for contest Q's) can never be used if you sent your grid
            with the CQ. In grid reporting, you report your grid in either TX2 or TX3
            as part of the normal sequence. In either reporting system there is nothing
            wrong with sending your grid along with the CQ. The redundancy of sending
            it with the CQ and then later with TX2 does not invalidate the contact or
            make it confusing.

            Likewise, if you're in the normal reporting system, then sending your grid
            along with TX1 has no impact on the remainder of the exchange. It's simply
            an extra piece of unrequired info. No different then sending "73 Tnx" for
            TX5. It may require longer pings for a good decode, but that should be left
            up to the operators and the conditions to determine. I don't see any need
            for a hard and fast rule here. I suppose some might be confused by this (is
            it TX1 normal report, or TX2 grid report?). However, if someone answers my
            "CQ W7CE CN87" with "W7CE K7*** DN13" this is no room for confusion. The
            only valid possibility is that they are sending TX1, since TX2 can only be
            sent after both calls have been copied.

            73,
            Clay W7CE
          • nz3m_dave
            Only one received RRR makes a complete QSO. If you are sending RRR and the other station reports on the chat that he received it, it s a QSO. I don t know
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 8, 2009
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              Only one received RRR makes a complete QSO. If you are sending RRR and the other station reports on the chat that he received it, it's a QSO. I' don't know what you are trying to say here.

              Dave NZ3M



              --- In wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com, "Russ K2TXB" <k2txb@...> wrote:
              But you should never check those channels until you have
              received RRR yourself. Why not? Because if you check the chat page when you have not received RRR, and you see that your partner is saying he received the RRR, then you have received part of the necessary QSO information via a means that is not part of the legal QSO requirements. At that point it is a busted contact and must be done over.

              Therefore it is wise to never look at the chat page until your QSO is
              complete, or you have given up...

              > 73, Russ K2TXB
              >
            • Russ K2TXB
              Clay said: Your explanation of how things should work implies that the grid reporting option (necessary for contest Q s) can never be used if you sent your
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 8, 2009
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                Clay said:
                 
                Your explanation of how things should work implies that the grid reporting
                option (necessary for contest Q's) can never be used if you sent your grid
                with the CQ. In grid reporting, you report your grid in either TX2 or TX3
                as part of the normal sequence. In either reporting system there is nothing
                wrong with sending your grid along with the CQ. The redundancy of sending
                it with the CQ and then later with TX2 does not invalidate the contact or
                make it confusing.
                It can.  The other station already knows your report before he ever receives it from you, if he copied it with your CQ. This means that if he only copies part of the grid, he might consider he has it and skip directly to RRR.  Of course you are right if you assume that everyone will patiently wait until they have recevied the grid again, but how many contesters have that patience in the heat of the contest.  I never send my grid with CQ in a contest.  Not necessary since it is the report too.
                 
                I think that too many operators are sliding down the slippery slope of taking shortcuts with the procedure for contacts.  Just look at HF DXing!  I would bet that 60% of contacts made are not valid due to the loose procedures used.  (If you do not understand what I mean, I will provide examples...)  I'd hate to see VHF operators start doing the same things.  Strict adherence to the rules is the best answer.
                 
                73, Russ K2TXB


                From: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Clay W7CE
                Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 10:17 AM
                To: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [wsjtgroup] Tx1 ... Why add to it?

                 

                > 1. Prior to receiving both calls, only send both calls (or CQ plus your
                > call). *
                >
                > * For random contacts it is acceptable to send your grid with the CQ, but
                > in
                > that case the grid square must NEVER be used as the report.
                >
                > 73, Russ K2TXB
                >

                Your explanation of how things should work implies that the grid reporting
                option (necessary for contest Q's) can never be used if you sent your grid
                with the CQ. In grid reporting, you report your grid in either TX2 or TX3
                as part of the normal sequence. In either reporting system there is nothing
                wrong with sending your grid along with the CQ. The redundancy of sending
                it with the CQ and then later with TX2 does not invalidate the contact or
                make it confusing.

                Likewise, if you're in the normal reporting system, then sending your grid
                along with TX1 has no impact on the remainder of the exchange. It's simply
                an extra piece of unrequired info. No different then sending "73 Tnx" for
                TX5. It may require longer pings for a good decode, but that should be left
                up to the operators and the conditions to determine. I don't see any need
                for a hard and fast rule here. I suppose some might be confused by this (is
                it TX1 normal report, or TX2 grid report?). However, if someone answers my
                "CQ W7CE CN87" with "W7CE K7*** DN13" this is no room for confusion. The
                only valid possibility is that they are sending TX1, since TX2 can only be
                sent after both calls have been copied.

                73,
                Clay W7CE

              • Russ K2TXB
                Dave said: Only one received RRR makes a complete QSO. If you are sending RRR and the other station reports on the chat that he received it, it s a QSO. I
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 8, 2009
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                  Dave said:
                   
                  Only one received RRR makes a complete QSO. If you are sending RRR and the other station reports on the chat that he received it, it's a QSO. I' don't know what you are trying to say here.

                  That is not right.  The rules clearly state that BOTH stations must receive rogers in order for the contact to be valid.  If you receive RRR and have not yet sent them, the contact is not complete and does not count.  Further if you receive RRR and send your own RRR, but the other station never copies it, the contact is likewise void.
                   
                  I once almost completed a meteor scatter contact with a station in Colorado, a distance of over 1900 miles from my FM29 location.  It would have been a world record 2 meter MS contact, and would probably have stood for many many years.  But I never received his RRR.  Everything else was complete, we had both calls each way, full reports, and he got my RRR.  I can assure you that it was very tempting to claim it as a complete QSO - especially as I had been trying to make that path for many years.  But it never happened and most likely never will (for me).  That is the nature of meteor scatter - you can not make all the contacts, and if you want to be proud of the contacts you have made it is essential that, in your own heart, you know that every claimed QSO was done with strict adherence to the rules and that no one can legitimately question your accomplishment.
                   
                  73, Russ K2TXB



                  From: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of nz3m_dave
                  Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 10:20 AM
                  To: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [wsjtgroup] Re: Tx1 ... Why add to it?

                   

                  Only one received RRR makes a complete QSO. If you are sending RRR and the other station reports on the chat that he received it, it's a QSO. I' don't know what you are trying to say here.

                  Dave NZ3M

                  --- In wsjtgroup@yahoogrou ps.com, "Russ K2TXB" <k2txb@...> wrote:
                  But you should never check those channels until you have
                  received RRR yourself. Why not? Because if you check the chat page when you have not received RRR, and you see that your partner is saying he received the RRR, then you have received part of the necessary QSO information via a means that is not part of the legal QSO requirements. At that point it is a busted contact and must be done over.

                  Therefore it is wise to never look at the chat page until your QSO is
                  complete, or you have given up...

                  > 73, Russ K2TXB
                  >

                • nz3m_dave
                  Russ, TX3 is the first roger (R26). Both stations don t need to receive RRR or TX4 73 Dave NZ3M
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 8, 2009
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                    Russ,

                    TX3 is the first "roger" (R26). Both stations don't need to receive RRR or TX4

                    73
                    Dave NZ3M





                    --- In wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com, "Russ K2TXB" <k2txb@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Dave said:
                    >
                    > Only one received RRR makes a complete QSO. If you are sending RRR and the
                    > other station reports on the chat that he received it, it's a QSO. I' don't
                    > know what you are trying to say here.
                    >
                    > That is not right. The rules clearly state that BOTH stations must receive
                    > rogers in order for the contact to be valid. If you receive RRR and have
                    > not yet sent them, the contact is not complete and does not count. Further
                    > if you receive RRR and send your own RRR, but the other station never copies
                    > it, the contact is likewise void.
                    >
                    > I once almost completed a meteor scatter contact with a station in Colorado,
                    > a distance of over 1900 miles from my FM29 location. It would have been a
                    > world record 2 meter MS contact, and would probably have stood for many many
                    > years. But I never received his RRR. Everything else was complete, we had
                    > both calls each way, full reports, and he got my RRR. I can assure you that
                    > it was very tempting to claim it as a complete QSO - especially as I had
                    > been trying to make that path for many years. But it never happened and
                    > most likely never will (for me). That is the nature of meteor scatter - you
                    > can not make all the contacts, and if you want to be proud of the contacts
                    > you have made it is essential that, in your own heart, you know that every
                    > claimed QSO was done with strict adherence to the rules and that no one can
                    > legitimately question your accomplishment.
                    >
                    > 73, Russ K2TXB
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > _____
                    >
                    > From: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                    > Of nz3m_dave
                    > Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 10:20 AM
                    > To: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [wsjtgroup] Re: Tx1 ... Why add to it?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Only one received RRR makes a complete QSO. If you are sending RRR and the
                    > other station reports on the chat that he received it, it's a QSO. I' don't
                    > know what you are trying to say here.
                    >
                    > Dave NZ3M
                    >
                    > --- In wsjtgroup@yahoogrou <mailto:wsjtgroup%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com,
                    > "Russ K2TXB" <k2txb@> wrote:
                    > But you should never check those channels until you have
                    > received RRR yourself. Why not? Because if you check the chat page when you
                    > have not received RRR, and you see that your partner is saying he received
                    > the RRR, then you have received part of the necessary QSO information via a
                    > means that is not part of the legal QSO requirements. At that point it is a
                    > busted contact and must be done over.
                    >
                    > Therefore it is wise to never look at the chat page until your QSO is
                    > complete, or you have given up...
                    >
                    > > 73, Russ K2TXB
                    > >
                    >
                  • Bill W5WVO
                    Reading through this thread, this is clearly the misunderstanding that Russ has. Both stations do not need to (nor should they) send every message. The
                    Message 9 of 18 , Aug 8, 2009
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                      Reading through this thread, this is clearly the misunderstanding that Russ has. Both stations do not need to (nor should they) send every message. The messages alternate. Only one station sends R26 (which contains that station's "roger"). Then the other station sends RRR. And that's it. It's a QSO.
                       
                      If you press the F5 key in WSJT, you will see Joe Taylor's very clear explanation of who sends what when.
                       
                      Bill W5WVO
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: nz3m_dave
                      Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 11:09 AM
                      Subject: [wsjtgroup] Re: Tx1 ... Why add to it?

                       

                      Russ,

                      TX3 is the first "roger" (R26). Both stations don't need to receive RRR or TX4

                      73
                      Dave NZ3M

                      --- In wsjtgroup@yahoogrou ps.com, "Russ K2TXB" <k2txb@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Dave said:
                      >
                      > Only one received RRR makes a complete QSO. If you are sending RRR and the
                      > other station reports on the chat that he received it, it's a QSO. I' don't
                      > know what you are trying to say here.
                      >
                      > That is not right. The rules clearly state that BOTH stations must receive
                      > rogers in order for the contact to be valid. If you receive RRR and have
                      > not yet sent them, the contact is not complete and does not count. Further
                      > if you receive RRR and send your own RRR, but the other station never copies
                      > it, the contact is likewise void.
                      >
                      > I once almost completed a meteor scatter contact with a station in Colorado,
                      > a distance of over 1900 miles from my FM29 location. It would have been a
                      > world record 2 meter MS contact, and would probably have stood for many many
                      > years. But I never received his RRR. Everything else was complete, we had
                      > both calls each way, full reports, and he got my RRR. I can assure you that
                      > it was very tempting to claim it as a complete QSO - especially as I had
                      > been trying to make that path for many years. But it never happened and
                      > most likely never will (for me). That is the nature of meteor scatter - you
                      > can not make all the contacts, and if you want to be proud of the contacts
                      > you have made it is essential that, in your own heart, you know that every
                      > claimed QSO was done with strict adherence to the rules and that no one can
                      > legitimately question your accomplishment.
                      >
                      > 73, Russ K2TXB
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > _____
                      >
                      > From: wsjtgroup@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf
                      > Of nz3m_dave
                      > Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 10:20 AM
                      > To: wsjtgroup@yahoogrou ps.com
                      > Subject: [wsjtgroup] Re: Tx1 ... Why add to it?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Only one received RRR makes a complete QSO. If you are sending RRR and the
                      > other station reports on the chat that he received it, it's a QSO. I' don't
                      > know what you are trying to say here.
                      >
                      > Dave NZ3M
                      >
                      > --- In wsjtgroup@yahoogrou <mailto:wsjtgroup% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com,
                      > "Russ K2TXB" <k2txb@> wrote:
                      > But you should never check those channels until you have
                      > received RRR yourself. Why not? Because if you check the chat page when you
                      > have not received RRR, and you see that your partner is saying he received
                      > the RRR, then you have received part of the necessary QSO information via a
                      > means that is not part of the legal QSO requirements. At that point it is a
                      > busted contact and must be done over.
                      >
                      > Therefore it is wise to never look at the chat page until your QSO is
                      > complete, or you have given up...
                      >
                      > > 73, Russ K2TXB
                      > >
                      >

                    • Russ K2TXB
                      Bill wrote: Reading through this thread, this is clearly the misunderstanding that Russ has. Both stations do not need to (nor should they) send every message.
                      Message 10 of 18 , Aug 8, 2009
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                        Bill wrote:
                         
                        Reading through this thread, this is clearly the misunderstanding that Russ has. Both stations do not need to (nor should they) send every message. The messages alternate. Only one station sends R26 (which contains that station's "roger"). Then the other station sends RRR. And that's it. It's a QSO.
                         
                        Oh Boy!  Sorry Bill and others.  I forget that I have not been too active here, and on the air, since my move in 2007.  So I could not rightfully expect you to know of my history or accomplishments.  As one who started trying HSMS in the 1970's, using slowed down and speeded up tape recorders to send and receive CW at a couple of hundred WPM, and was very active in with the first HSMS computer programs, and who worked his way through all of the various renditions of FSK441, once it became available, I can assure you that I know exactly what the procedures are, what the rules are, and how to use them to best advantage.
                         
                        That said, I can see nothing in my previous comments to lead anyone to think that I think that every message has to be used by both stations.  Believe me, I know very well that is untrue.  Perhaps your misunderstanding arises from my use of RRR to represent sending of rogers.  OF COURSE sending R26 also sends rogers.  R26 means, exactly, RRR (got your report{and calls}), and your report is 26.  So, of course, when you receive R26 you are receiving the RRR signal!!!!!
                         
                        However one person I replied to said that it was good enough that only one side of the QSO received RRR.  That is completely untrue.
                         
                        Regards, Russ K2TXB   (FM29PT - WAS, WAC, 44 DXCC, 419 Grids, 597 MS contacts - all on 2 meters - now moved to FN20MB).
                         
                         


                        From: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill W5WVO
                        Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 1:30 PM
                        To: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com; nz3m_dave
                        Subject: Re: [wsjtgroup] Re: Tx1 ... Why add to it?

                         

                        Reading through this thread, this is clearly the misunderstanding that Russ has. Both stations do not need to (nor should they) send every message. The messages alternate. Only one station sends R26 (which contains that station's "roger"). Then the other station sends RRR. And that's it. It's a QSO.
                         
                        If you press the F5 key in WSJT, you will see Joe Taylor's very clear explanation of who sends what when.
                         
                        Bill W5WVO
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: nz3m_dave
                        Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 11:09 AM
                        Subject: [wsjtgroup] Re: Tx1 ... Why add to it?

                         

                        Russ,

                        TX3 is the first "roger" (R26). Both stations don't need to receive RRR or TX4

                        73
                        Dave NZ3M

                        --- In wsjtgroup@yahoogrou ps.com, "Russ K2TXB" <k2txb@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Dave said:
                        >
                        > Only one received RRR makes a complete QSO. If you are sending RRR and the
                        > other station reports on the chat that he received it, it's a QSO. I' don't
                        > know what you are trying to say here.
                        >
                        > That is not right. The rules clearly state that BOTH stations must receive
                        > rogers in order for the contact to be valid. If you receive RRR and have
                        > not yet sent them, the contact is not complete and does not count. Further
                        > if you receive RRR and send your own RRR, but the other station never copies
                        > it, the contact is likewise void.
                        >
                        > I once almost completed a meteor scatter contact with a station in Colorado,
                        > a distance of over 1900 miles from my FM29 location. It would have been a
                        > world record 2 meter MS contact, and would probably have stood for many many
                        > years. But I never received his RRR. Everything else was complete, we had
                        > both calls each way, full reports, and he got my RRR. I can assure you that
                        > it was very tempting to claim it as a complete QSO - especially as I had
                        > been trying to make that path for many years. But it never happened and
                        > most likely never will (for me). That is the nature of meteor scatter - you
                        > can not make all the contacts, and if you want to be proud of the contacts
                        > you have made it is essential that, in your own heart, you know that every
                        > claimed QSO was done with strict adherence to the rules and that no one can
                        > legitimately question your accomplishment.
                        >
                        > 73, Russ K2TXB
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > _____
                        >
                        > From: wsjtgroup@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf
                        > Of nz3m_dave
                        > Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 10:20 AM
                        > To: wsjtgroup@yahoogrou ps.com
                        > Subject: [wsjtgroup] Re: Tx1 ... Why add to it?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Only one received RRR makes a complete QSO. If you are sending RRR and the
                        > other station reports on the chat that he received it, it's a QSO. I' don't
                        > know what you are trying to say here.
                        >
                        > Dave NZ3M
                        >
                        > --- In wsjtgroup@yahoogrou <mailto:wsjtgroup% 40yahoogroups. com> ps.com,
                        > "Russ K2TXB" <k2txb@> wrote:
                        > But you should never check those channels until you have
                        > received RRR yourself. Why not? Because if you check the chat page when you
                        > have not received RRR, and you see that your partner is saying he received
                        > the RRR, then you have received part of the necessary QSO information via a
                        > means that is not part of the legal QSO requirements. At that point it is a
                        > busted contact and must be done over.
                        >
                        > Therefore it is wise to never look at the chat page until your QSO is
                        > complete, or you have given up...
                        >
                        > > 73, Russ K2TXB
                        > >
                        >

                      • Randy Tipton
                        When there is any douby it is best to refer back to the SOP. The SOP has been around a long time for Meteor Scatter operators. I feel we should all adhere not
                        Message 11 of 18 , Aug 8, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          When there is any douby it is best to refer back to the SOP. The SOP has
                          been around
                          a long time for Meteor Scatter operators. I feel we should all adhere not
                          only to the SOP
                          but also the operating suggestions given at the top of the PJ page. These
                          page instructions
                          are actually well thought out and enhance the pj process for all of us. (The
                          PJ operating
                          instructions was not part of this thed so just a side thought)

                          One thing I believe should be changed is the Link found at the top of
                          PJ page to the SOP. Contacts today are using FSK or JT6M modes and the link
                          should be
                          changed to ... http://www.qsl.net/w8wn/hscw/papers/fsk-sop.html If others
                          agree, maybe Chris can make that change.

                          Several years ago we simplified the SOP and several stations in the group
                          assisted ...
                          it is posted here... http://www.ykc.com/wa5ufh/Misc/ShortSOP.htm The intent
                          was not to
                          change a single element but to simplify it for newbie's.

                          When you read the SOP there are a few exceptions for changing messages. They
                          are related to message Tx2 and CQ. This relates to some of the discussion on
                          going.

                          Clearly the Grid in the CQ is for portable / MM stations.
                          The Grid square is to be used as reports in contests.
                          Tx2 Msg may be changed to shorten the msg length for low power stations.
                          Both stations receive the "Roger" and it is suggested 'to be sure' by
                          receiving it twice!

                          The SOP recommendation for Low Power Stations copied...
                          "Note on WSJT's FSK441 North American reporting: The #2 Standard Text Box
                          defaults to "Firstcall report Secondcall report report" (e.g., K1JT 26 W8WN
                          2626). The reason for this format is to allow monitoring stations to tell
                          which station they're hearing. Since the pair of calls is the longest string
                          of text to exchange, lower-power stations may find it advantageous to change
                          this to "Firstcall report Secondcall report" or even "Firstcall Secondcall
                          report."

                          This change is definitely recommended for contests when the Grid Square is
                          required for the report."

                          (Note: I take advantage of the above, it has been helpful I believe
                          especially on two meters.)

                          Copied from the SOP:
                          "Other sometimes-used exchanges:
                          Burst length "S" report. Standard in North America since the 1950's for slow
                          CW and later for SSB.
                          Grid square. Required for most contests. Sometimes used by portable or /MM
                          stations; however, on FSK441, it is becomming common for the portable or /MM
                          station to include their current grid in the CQ . The grid square normally
                          should not be used on HSMS for the report except for contests."

                          Concerning sending the Grid in a CQ the SOP States...
                          "CQ with GRID SQUARE - It is now common for /MM, /M, and portable stations
                          (who may change locations) to include their Grid Square in the CQ. This
                          enables the receiving stations to know the location of the portable/mobile
                          station, and whether or not they need that particular grid square. Thus,
                          W1LP/MM might call "CQ W1LP EL62". This is not recommended for fixed
                          stations - it adds unnecessary information to the CQ, as the locations of
                          most fixed stations are usually already known."

                          Concerning the receipt of two "Rogers"
                          Copied from the SOP:
                          "When both get a pair of Rogers (you usually need at least two to be
                          sure!), the QSO is officially complete. However, the other station will not
                          know this. So it is customary to then send "73" to let the other station
                          know that it's complete, even though the "73" is not required for a complete
                          QSO."

                          The Required Protocol is:
                          REQUIREMENTS FOR A QSO:
                          The same as for any mode of operation or propagation - an exchange of both
                          call signs, an exchange of some type of information or report, and an
                          exchange of confirmation of the same.
                          When a station copies both calls, he sends calls and report.
                          If he gets both calls and a report, he sends his report & Roger.
                          If he gets report and Roger, he sends Rogers.
                          When both get a pair of Rogers (you usually need at least two to be sure!),
                          the QSO is officially complete. However, the other station will not know
                          this. So it is customary to then send "73" to let the other station know
                          that it's complete, even though the "73" is not required for a complete QSO.




                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Clay W7CE" <w7ce@...>
                          To: <wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 9:17 AM
                          Subject: Re: [wsjtgroup] Tx1 ... Why add to it?


                          >> 1. Prior to receiving both calls, only send both calls (or CQ plus your
                          >> call). *
                          >>
                          >> * For random contacts it is acceptable to send your grid with the CQ, but
                          >> in
                          >> that case the grid square must NEVER be used as the report.
                          >>
                          >> 73, Russ K2TXB
                          >>
                          >
                          > Your explanation of how things should work implies that the grid reporting
                          > option (necessary for contest Q's) can never be used if you sent your grid
                          > with the CQ. In grid reporting, you report your grid in either TX2 or TX3
                          > as part of the normal sequence. In either reporting system there is
                          > nothing
                          > wrong with sending your grid along with the CQ. The redundancy of sending
                          > it with the CQ and then later with TX2 does not invalidate the contact or
                          > make it confusing.
                          >
                          > Likewise, if you're in the normal reporting system, then sending your grid
                          > along with TX1 has no impact on the remainder of the exchange. It's
                          > simply
                          > an extra piece of unrequired info. No different then sending "73 Tnx" for
                          > TX5. It may require longer pings for a good decode, but that should be
                          > left
                          > up to the operators and the conditions to determine. I don't see any need
                          > for a hard and fast rule here. I suppose some might be confused by this
                          > (is
                          > it TX1 normal report, or TX2 grid report?). However, if someone answers
                          > my
                          > "CQ W7CE CN87" with "W7CE K7*** DN13" this is no room for confusion. The
                          > only valid possibility is that they are sending TX1, since TX2 can only be
                          > sent after both calls have been copied.
                          >
                          > 73,
                          > Clay W7CE
                          >
                          >
                          >
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