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Re: [wsjtgroup] Picking a Bone With Gene

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  • Owen Wormser
    I know Gene very well and have for many years as a member of our K8GP contest group. I believe you all have misread or misunderstood Gene s writing. I know
    Message 1 of 24 , May 4 10:48 AM
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      I know Gene very well and have for many years as a member of our K8GP contest group. I believe you all have misread or misunderstood Gene's writing. I know him to be deeply interested in and an exploiter of WSJT modes. Owen, K3CB

      -----Original Message-----
      >From: Dave Ackrill <dave.g0dja@...>
      >Sent: May 4, 2009 5:38 PM
      >To: WSJT Group <wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com>
      >Subject: Re: [wsjtgroup] Picking a Bone With Gene
      >
      >Les Rayburn wrote:
      >> With all due respect to Gene Zimmerman, W3ZZ, I have to disagree with some statements that he made in the May 2009 Issue of QST. In his column, "The World Above 50Mhz" Gene writes;
      >
      >Not having read the article mentioned, I can't comment on it in
      >particular. However, it does sound like the familiar decrying of
      >anything 'new' that comes along.
      >
      >In my time I've seen various articles predicting how some development
      >was going to 'kill the hobby' or 'make it too easy to work people'. I
      >suspect that similar arguments were put out before I became active as
      >well going back in time.
      >
      >Having used WSJT and fairly modest VHF set ups I can certainly refute
      >the suggestion that every contact is completed, I remember many tests
      >resulting in incomplete contacts or no reflections at all.
      >
      >However, personally I do not use the deep search option as, and as I say
      >this is just my personal preference, I am not comfortable with the
      >philosophy behind searching a database to that level during an attempted
      >contact. Although, I do have to say that if I know the name, callsign
      >and locator of the other station that I'm going to work on CW, then
      >there's not a lot of 'other' information that I don't already know that
      >is needed to complete a CW contact...
      >
      >Dave (G0DJA)
      >
      >
      >------------------------------------
      >
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      >
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      >
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      >
      >
      >
    • Doug Millar
      Hi All, I just re read Gene s article. It is an excellent article that wants to discuss how to energize VHF/UHF contests by changing the scoring. It is an
      Message 2 of 24 , May 4 11:14 AM
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        Hi All,
        I just re read Gene's article. It is an excellent article that wants
        to discuss how to energize VHF/UHF contests by changing the scoring.
        It is an excellent article with much to think about. Along the way he
        mentions FSK441 prejudicially. That is unfortunate. I think there
        are two separate issues. We should discuss scoring on its own merits
        and how to improve it. If Gene wants to get into a discussion about
        digital modes, that should be separate. If Gene is a JT supporter,
        perhaps he needs to clarify his position. I would hate to see a flame
        war about digital modes that covered up the necessity of discussing scoring.
        My 2 cents: If we are interested in more participation in contests,
        then let's find a way to use digital modes and not make it a yes/no decision.
        Doug Millar K6JEY
      • Jordan
        Wow....I think that wold be the broadest assumption I ve heard in ages.... Technically speaking, I see no difference between any of the JT modes and the former
        Message 3 of 24 , May 4 11:54 AM
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          Wow....I think that wold be the broadest assumption I've heard in ages....
          Technically speaking, I see no difference between any of the JT modes and the former use of HSMS, hi-speed CW, which was often sent at 1000 lpm+, and right down to folks who have used chart recorders and 10hz BP filters to visually decode the returning CW...All of these methods are adaptions to need and to improve station performance using 'state of the art' at-the-time methods.
          I also recall this being a condition of license, but that is another matter altogether.
           
          There are so many misconceptions regarding JT modes and weak signal operating that needs to be better understood before it gets chastised to the point of hate.
           
          With the JT modes, a new world of w-s operating has opened for me, and I am one among many that I know spend far more time active knowing that at least there are signals to be heard...Here in Alberta, and other areas with sparse populations, JT modes have been a god-send.....
           
          73...Jordan VE6ZT
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 11:07 AM
          Subject: [wsjtgroup] Picking a Bone With Gene

          With all due respect to Gene Zimmerman, W3ZZ, I have to disagree with some statements that he made in the May 2009 Issue of QST. In his column, "The World Above 50Mhz" Gene writes;
           
          "we must consider FSK441 digital contacts that, while sometimes more difficult to set up, technically utilize the skill of Joe Taylor, K1JT, as a software author to complete".
           
          Sorry Gene, but using that logic, you're technically using the skills of Icom engineers, or TE Systems design to complete your SSB or CW contacts. There is certainly skill involved in making FSK441 meteor scatter contacts, especially those on the fringe areas of possible propagation range.
           
          Predicting optimum paths, time of day, and time of year are a big part of the equation. To get good at it takes a fair amount of study on the part of the operator. Also, station designed must be optimized for meteor scatter work. And manipulating the software to pull out really distant contacts has a pretty step learning curve. Please explain how that differs from similar skill sets used in other areas of contesting.
           
          If your experience with the mode is limited to working a few super stations with high power, large gain antennas, and optimum paths on 6 Meters, then yes, perhaps the contacts could be considered almost "automatic". But try those modest station contacts on 222 or 432 and see how easy it is.
           
          Gene goes on to say, "Given even a modest station-100W to a small beam- most of your WSJT contacts are guaranteed if the other station shows up."
           
          Again, I'm not sure how active Gene is on WSJT, but contacts, even with stations much better equipped than he describes are hardly guaranteed. In fact, the majority of contacts attempted during contests or any other period are not completed. Even when coordinated using resources like Ping Jockey. At least not on 2 Meters. During last year's contests I had WSJT skeds with a number of stations, and completed only two of those. Some of these were with powerhouse contests stations, who were multi-op. 
           
          After contest correspondence revealed that they did indeed "show up" but the rox simply didn't allow the contact to be completed before one or both of us had to move on to another attempt.  
           
          These remarks reveal a basis than many VHF men have toward the digital modes. Since it's new and unfamiliar to them, they dismiss it as being somehow "less than" the older modes. I think this is very contrary to the pioneering spirit of the bands. In the 1940's and 50's, don't you think that anyone in the ranks of VHF/UHF work would have given their eye teeth for a mode that would offer several db of improvement over CW?
           
          All that being said, Zimmerman's logic about adding distance scoring to the September contest makes a lot of sense. I believe that it would encourage VHF men to give WSJT more of their operating time, which I think would be healthy for all of us. For some of us who have compromised stations, WSJT represents the best chance for awards like VUCC on 2 Meters, but the lack of stations using the mode makes that difficult. I think a distance scoring based contest would increase the usage of WSJT, and further development of the software would advance the state of the art.
           
          73,
           
          Les Rayburn, N1LF
          EM63nf
          121 Mayfair Park
          Maylene, AL 35114
           
           

        • Al
          My 2 cents.. I am old enough to remember the FIGHTS some hams had over AM vs. SSB! Al WA4EWV ... From: Jordan To: Les Rayburn ; VHF Contesting Reflector ;
          Message 4 of 24 , May 4 12:08 PM
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            My 2 cents..
            I am old enough to remember the FIGHTS some hams had over AM vs. SSB!
            Al
            WA4EWV
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Jordan
            Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 1:54 PM
            Subject: Re: [wsjtgroup] Picking a Bone With Gene

            Wow....I think that wold be the broadest assumption I've heard in ages....
            Technically speaking, I see no difference between any of the JT modes and the former use of HSMS, hi-speed CW, which was often sent at 1000 lpm+, and right down to folks who have used chart recorders and 10hz BP filters to visually decode the returning CW...All of these methods are adaptions to need and to improve station performance using 'state of the art' at-the-time methods.
            I also recall this being a condition of license, but that is another matter altogether.
             
            There are so many misconceptions regarding JT modes and weak signal operating that needs to be better understood before it gets chastised to the point of hate.
             
            With the JT modes, a new world of w-s operating has opened for me, and I am one among many that I know spend far more time active knowing that at least there are signals to be heard...Here in Alberta, and other areas with sparse populations, JT modes have been a god-send.... .
             
            73...Jordan VE6ZT
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 11:07 AM
            Subject: [wsjtgroup] Picking a Bone With Gene

            With all due respect to Gene Zimmerman, W3ZZ, I have to disagree with some statements that he made in the May 2009 Issue of QST. In his column, "The World Above 50Mhz" Gene writes;
             
            "we must consider FSK441 digital contacts that, while sometimes more difficult to set up, technically utilize the skill of Joe Taylor, K1JT, as a software author to complete".
             
            Sorry Gene, but using that logic, you're technically using the skills of Icom engineers, or TE Systems design to complete your SSB or CW contacts. There is certainly skill involved in making FSK441 meteor scatter contacts, especially those on the fringe areas of possible propagation range.
             
            Predicting optimum paths, time of day, and time of year are a big part of the equation. To get good at it takes a fair amount of study on the part of the operator. Also, station designed must be optimized for meteor scatter work. And manipulating the software to pull out really distant contacts has a pretty step learning curve. Please explain how that differs from similar skill sets used in other areas of contesting.
             
            If your experience with the mode is limited to working a few super stations with high power, large gain antennas, and optimum paths on 6 Meters, then yes, perhaps the contacts could be considered almost "automatic". But try those modest station contacts on 222 or 432 and see how easy it is.
             
            Gene goes on to say, "Given even a modest station-100W to a small beam- most of your WSJT contacts are guaranteed if the other station shows up."
             
            Again, I'm not sure how active Gene is on WSJT, but contacts, even with stations much better equipped than he describes are hardly guaranteed. In fact, the majority of contacts attempted during contests or any other period are not completed. Even when coordinated using resources like Ping Jockey. At least not on 2 Meters. During last year's contests I had WSJT skeds with a number of stations, and completed only two of those. Some of these were with powerhouse contests stations, who were multi-op. 
             
            After contest correspondence revealed that they did indeed "show up" but the rox simply didn't allow the contact to be completed before one or both of us had to move on to another attempt.  
             
            These remarks reveal a basis than many VHF men have toward the digital modes. Since it's new and unfamiliar to them, they dismiss it as being somehow "less than" the older modes. I think this is very contrary to the pioneering spirit of the bands. In the 1940's and 50's, don't you think that anyone in the ranks of VHF/UHF work would have given their eye teeth for a mode that would offer several db of improvement over CW?
             
            All that being said, Zimmerman's logic about adding distance scoring to the September contest makes a lot of sense. I believe that it would encourage VHF men to give WSJT more of their operating time, which I think would be healthy for all of us. For some of us who have compromised stations, WSJT represents the best chance for awards like VUCC on 2 Meters, but the lack of stations using the mode makes that difficult. I think a distance scoring based contest would increase the usage of WSJT, and further development of the software would advance the state of the art.
             
            73,
             
            Les Rayburn, N1LF
            EM63nf
            121 Mayfair Park
            Maylene, AL 35114
             
             

          • Barry Garratt
            Then Owen in so far as you know Gene quite well and the rest of us obviously don t have this advantage perhaps you can explain to all of us what we have
            Message 5 of 24 , May 4 12:24 PM
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              Then Owen in so far as you know Gene quite well and the rest of us obviously don't have this advantage perhaps you can explain to all of us what we have misread and misunderstood. I've just reread Gene's comments and to me they seem pretty clear.
               
              Barry VE3CDX/W7 


              From: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Owen Wormser
              Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 10:48 AM
              To: Dave Ackrill; WSJT Group
              Subject: Re: [wsjtgroup] Picking a Bone With Gene

              I know Gene very well and have for many years as a member of our K8GP contest group. I believe you all have misread or misunderstood Gene's writing. I know him to be deeply interested in and an exploiter of WSJT modes. Owen, K3CB

              -----Original Message-----

              >From: Dave Ackrill <
              href="mailto:dave.g0dja%40tiscali.co.uk">dave.g0dja@tiscali. co.uk>
              >Sent:
              May 4, 2009 5:38 PM
              >To: WSJT Group <
              href="mailto:wsjtgroup%40yahoogroups.com">wsjtgroup@yahoogrou ps.com>
              >Subject:
              Re: [wsjtgroup] Picking a Bone With Gene
              >
              >Les Rayburn
              wrote:
              >> With all due respect to Gene Zimmerman, W3ZZ, I have to
              disagree with some statements that he made in the May 2009 Issue of QST. In his column, "The World Above 50Mhz" Gene writes;
              >
              >Not having read the
              article mentioned, I can't comment on it in
              >particular. However, it does
              sound like the familiar decrying of
              >anything 'new' that comes
              along.
              >
              >In my time I've seen various articles predicting how some
              development
              >was going to 'kill the hobby' or 'make it too easy to work
              people'. I
              >suspect that similar arguments were put out before I became
              active as
              >well going back in time.
              >
              >Having used WSJT and
              fairly modest VHF set ups I can certainly refute
              >the suggestion that
              every contact is completed, I remember many tests
              >resulting in
              incomplete contacts or no reflections at all.
              >
              >However, personally
              I do not use the deep search option as, and as I say
              >this is just my
              personal preference, I am not comfortable with the
              >philosophy behind
              searching a database to that level during an attempted
              >contact.
              Although, I do have to say that if I know the name, callsign
              >and locator
              of the other station that I'm going to work on CW, then
              >there's not a
              lot of 'other' information that I don't already know that
              >is needed to
              complete a CW contact...
              >
              >Dave
              (G0DJA)
              >
              >
              >----------- --------- --------- -------
              >
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              unsubscribe, send an email to:
              >
              href="mailto:wsjtgroup-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com">wsjtgroup-unsubscri be@yahoogroups. com
              >
              >WSJTGroup
              HomePage http://www.ykc. com/wa5ufh/
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >Yahoo! Groups
              Links
              >
              >
              >

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            • Mike(W5UC) & Kathy(K5MWH)
              ... I lost respect for Zimmerman several years ago, and quit reading _World Above 50 MHZ_ when he insisted that VHF/UHF distance records MUST be published in
              Message 6 of 24 , May 4 12:42 PM
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                Les Rayburn wrote:
                >
                > With all due respect to Gene Zimmerman, W3ZZ, I have to disagree with
                > some statements that he made in the May 2009 Issue of QST. In his
                > column, "The World Above 50Mhz" Gene writes;



                I lost respect for Zimmerman several years ago, and quit reading _World
                Above 50 MHZ_ when he insisted that VHF/UHF distance records MUST be
                published in kilometers rather than miles, and refused to acknowledge
                the need to at least publish both figures. I don't know how far a
                kilometer is, and don't care. The US is a nation whose distances are
                measured in miles. Our minds automatically comprehend distances in
                miles, and most of us don't want to be Europeanized. If Europeans are
                happy with Kilometers, thats great, but I don't want to have to find a
                calculator and conversion chart to figure out how far away my contact was.

                73,
                Mike, W5UC
                "American by birth. Texan by the grace of God*
                http://www.the912project.com
                http://www.suddenlink.net/pages/w5uc/
              • Joe - WDØM
                Many years ago US Metric Association took a survey to determine which countries have /officially/ adopted the metric system. According to that survey, the
                Message 7 of 24 , May 4 1:03 PM
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                  "Many years ago US Metric Association took a survey to determine which countries have officially adopted the metric system. According to that survey, the only other countries besides the U.S. that have not officially adopted the metric system are Liberia (in western Africa) and Burma (also known as Myanmar, in Southeast Asia)."

                  http://lamar.colostate.edu/~hillger/internat.htm

                  I see the believers in non-metric standards are in good company internationally.

                  73,

                  Joe
                  WDØM

                  (a Texan by accident of birth)


                  Mike(W5UC) & Kathy(K5MWH) wrote:

                  Les Rayburn wrote:
                  >
                  > With all due respect to Gene Zimmerman, W3ZZ, I have to disagree with
                  > some statements that he made in the May 2009 Issue of QST. In his
                  > column, "The World Above 50Mhz" Gene writes;

                  I lost respect for Zimmerman several years ago, and quit reading _World
                  Above 50 MHZ_ when he insisted that VHF/UHF distance records MUST be
                  published in kilometers rather than miles, and refused to acknowledge
                  the need to at least publish both figures. I don't know how far a
                  kilometer is, and don't care. The US is a nation whose distances are
                  measured in miles. Our minds automatically comprehend distances in
                  miles, and most of us don't want to be Europeanized. If Europeans are
                  happy with Kilometers, thats great, but I don't want to have to find a
                  calculator and conversion chart to figure out how far away my contact was.

                  73,
                  Mike, W5UC
                  "American by birth. Texan by the grace of God*
                  http://www.the912pr oject.com
                  http://www.suddenli nk.net/pages/ w5uc/

                • Dave Ackrill
                  ... As I said in my reply, I have not read the article and, therefore, had to base my reply on the information given in the original posting. I hope that the
                  Message 8 of 24 , May 4 1:18 PM
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                    Doug Millar wrote:
                    > I think there
                    > are two separate issues. We should discuss scoring on its own merits
                    > and how to improve it. If Gene wants to get into a discussion about
                    > digital modes, that should be separate. If Gene is a JT supporter,
                    > perhaps he needs to clarify his position.

                    As I said in my reply, I have not read the article and, therefore, had
                    to base my reply on the information given in the original posting.

                    I hope that the reply made clear that I was not doing a critique of the
                    article, but the attitude that is sometimes engendered by 'new'
                    techniques and systems. It is not that long ago that opponents of modes
                    like PSK31 were attempting to invoke the then UK regulations by
                    suggesting that they were a 'code or cypher' which were, at that time,
                    specifically disallowed.

                    I have a saying of my own that misquotes a famous saying about the
                    British and USA, that at times we appear to be a hobby where people are
                    separated by a common interest...

                    I've sometimes been surprised by friends of mine, who I thought had
                    broad minds, suggesting that some new development was 'not real radio'.
                    I often wonder what they are afraid of? In the age of the internet,
                    social networking and mobile phones Amateur Radio still enthuses people
                    to build stuff, operate on a variety of bands using many different modes
                    and discover how to make contact with many, or few, other people.

                    Dave (G0DJA)
                  • Dave Ackrill
                    ... In the UK, despite what you might read, we use both. The speed limits are in MPH and distances on signs in miles. However, some of the imperial measures
                    Message 9 of 24 , May 4 1:22 PM
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                      Mike(W5UC) & Kathy(K5MWH) wrote:
                      > Les Rayburn wrote:
                      >> With all due respect to Gene Zimmerman, W3ZZ, I have to disagree with
                      >> some statements that he made in the May 2009 Issue of QST. In his
                      >> column, "The World Above 50Mhz" Gene writes;
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I lost respect for Zimmerman several years ago, and quit reading _World
                      > Above 50 MHZ_ when he insisted that VHF/UHF distance records MUST be
                      > published in kilometers rather than miles, and refused to acknowledge
                      > the need to at least publish both figures. I don't know how far a
                      > kilometer is, and don't care.

                      In the UK, despite what you might read, we use both.

                      The speed limits are in MPH and distances on signs in miles.

                      However, some of the imperial measures are different between UK and USA.
                      Like, I think, the gallon?

                      So, I have no problem with our contests being scored in km per point as
                      it makes for bigger scores. LOL

                      Dave (G0DJA)
                    • Mike(W5UC) & Kathy(K5MWH)
                      ... On this matter, what happens in some other country is unimportant. I remember a number of years ago when there was a big push to force the US to convert
                      Message 10 of 24 , May 4 1:28 PM
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                        Joe - WDØM wrote:
                        >
                        > "Many years ago US Metric Association took a survey to determine which
                        > countries have /officially/ adopted the metric system. According to
                        > that survey, the only other countries besides the U.S. that have not
                        > /officially/ adopted the metric system are *Liberia* (in western
                        > Africa) and *Burma* (also known as *Myanmar*, in Southeast Asia)."
                        >
                        > http://lamar.colostate.edu/~hillger/internat.htm
                        >
                        > I see the believers in non-metric standards are in good company
                        > internationally.
                        >











                        On this matter, what happens in some other country is unimportant. I
                        remember a number of years ago when there was a big push to force the US
                        to convert to metric. It didn't happen, and isn't likely to.
                        /Unofficially or officially, the people of this country didn't/don't
                        want it. / This argument reminds me of the parent asking the child why
                        he/she did a particular thing, and the child responds "well, Bobby did
                        it". It would appear that the influence of the US Metric Association is
                        insignificant at best.

                        73,
                        Mike, W5UC
                        "American by birth. Texan by the grace of God*
                        http://www.the912project.com
                        http://www.suddenlink.net/pages/w5uc/
                      • Doug Millar
                        Hi Dave, I think in both of your posts that you are quite right. I think in any situation of change there are usually three types of reactions: 1. Those who
                        Message 11 of 24 , May 4 1:37 PM
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                          Hi Dave,
                          I think in both of your posts that you are quite right.

                          I think in any situation of change there are usually three types
                          of reactions:
                          1. Those who reluctantly go into the future rear-end first
                          (looking backwards).
                          2. Those who look to the future but have their focus on the present.
                          3. Those who look to the future and are thinking ahead.
                          The constant is the progression of time, of course.
                          I believe, as has been said, we are supposed to be in group 3.
                          73,
                          Doug
                        • Joe - WDØM
                          In this country, in most every industrial application, it s metric, since we have to sell American products in the rest of the world. As a former director of
                          Message 12 of 24 , May 4 1:50 PM
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                            In this country, in most every industrial application, it's metric, since we have to sell American products in the rest of the world.  As a former director of contracting for the USAF, I can assure you that the equipment/aircraft/systems we purchase are metric, are as most parts on your American made automobile.  So, I guess it does matter as to what is being done in this country since large parts of your daily life ARE metric - perhaps people haven't noticed.

                            I have to agree - with metrics comes a "bigger" score!

                            73,

                            Joe, Colonel, USAF (Ret)
                            WDØM
                            Texan by accident of birth

                            Mike(W5UC) & Kathy(K5MWH) wrote:

                            Joe - WDØM wrote:
                            >
                            > "Many years ago US Metric Association took a survey to determine which
                            > countries have /officially/ adopted the metric system. According to
                            > that survey, the only other countries besides the U.S. that have not
                            > /officially/ adopted the metric system are *Liberia* (in western
                            > Africa) and *Burma* (also known as *Myanmar*, in Southeast Asia)."
                            >
                            > http://lamar. colostate. edu/~hillger/ internat. htm
                            >
                            > I see the believers in non-metric standards are in good company
                            > internationally.
                            >

                            On this matter, what happens in some other country is unimportant. I
                            remember a number of years ago when there was a big push to force the US
                            to convert to metric. It didn't happen, and isn't likely to.
                            /Unofficially or officially, the people of this country didn't/don't
                            want it. / This argument reminds me of the parent asking the child why
                            he/she did a particular thing, and the child responds "well, Bobby did
                            it". It would appear that the influence of the US Metric Association is
                            insignificant at best.

                            73,
                            Mike, W5UC
                            "American by birth. Texan by the grace of God*
                            http://www.the912pr oject.com
                            http://www.suddenli nk.net/pages/ w5uc/

                          • Andy obrien
                            On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Mike(W5UC) & Kathy(K5MWH) ... This is very sad, that one would stop reading an article based on such an obscure viewpoint. Andy
                            Message 13 of 24 , May 4 2:16 PM
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                              On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Mike(W5UC) & Kathy(K5MWH)
                              <w5uc@...> wrote:
                              >

                              > I lost respect for Zimmerman several years ago, and quit reading _World
                              > Above 50 MHZ_ when he insisted that VHF/UHF distance records MUST be
                              > published in kilometers rather than miles, and refused to acknowledge
                              > the need to at least publish both figures. I don't know how far a
                              > kilometer is, and don't care. The US is a nation whose distances are
                              > measured in miles. Our minds automatically comprehend distances in
                              > miles, and most of us don't want to be Europeanized. If Europeans are
                              > happy with Kilometers, thats great, but I don't want to have to find a
                              > calculator and conversion chart to figure out how far away my contact was.
                              >
                              > 73,
                              > Mike, W5UC
                              > "American by birth. Texan by the grace of God*
                              > http://www.the912project.com
                              > http://www.suddenlink.net/pages/w5uc/


                              This is very sad, that one would stop reading an article based on such
                              an obscure viewpoint.


                              Andy K3UK.
                            • Mike(W5UC) & Kathy(K5MWH)
                              ... Joe, that s just fantastic, but the bottom line is that my wife & I don t drive a military jet to Houston and back. The fact still remains that the US
                              Message 14 of 24 , May 4 2:27 PM
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                                Joe - WDØM wrote:
                                >
                                > In this country, in most every industrial application, it's metric,
                                > since we have to sell American products in the rest of the world. As
                                > a former director of contracting for the USAF, I can assure you that
                                > the equipment/aircraft/systems we purchase are metric, are as most
                                > parts on your American made automobile. So, I guess it does matter as
                                > to what is being done in this country since large parts of your daily
                                > life ARE metric - perhaps people haven't noticed.
                                >
                                > I have to agree - with metrics comes a "bigger" score!
                                >
                                > 73,
                                >
                                > Joe, Colonel, USAF (Ret)
                                > WDØM
                                > Texan by accident of birth
                                >

















                                Joe, that's just fantastic, but the bottom line is that my wife & I
                                don't drive a military jet to Houston and back. The fact still remains
                                that the US population doesn't want distances in km, and we are still
                                able to successfully make it from here to work, or from here to Dallas
                                despite the fact that our distances are measured in those cruddy old
                                miles miles. This still goes back to the parent and the child. Just
                                because the folks in BFE do it doesn't mean that we should.

                                73,
                                Mike, W5UC
                                "American by birth. Texan by the grace of God*
                                http://www.the912project.com
                                http://www.suddenlink.net/pages/w5uc/
                              • Mike(W5UC) & Kathy(K5MWH)
                                /This is very sad, that one would stop reading an article based on such an obscure viewpoint. Andy K3UK./ Maybe so, maybe no. The reason we as a nation
                                Message 15 of 24 , May 4 2:53 PM
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                                  /This is very sad, that one would stop reading an article based on such
                                  an obscure viewpoint.

                                  Andy K3UK./

                                  Maybe so, maybe no. The reason we as a nation continue to drift toward
                                  mediocrity is that we no longer stand up and say "I don't like that",
                                  and others impose their will on us and move on.

                                  This thread has drifted waaaaayyyy off topic, so I will cease further
                                  comment. Thanks for the discussion.

                                  73,
                                  Mike, W5UC
                                  "American by birth. Texan by the grace of God*
                                  http://www.the912project.com
                                  http://www.suddenlink.net/pages/w5uc/



















































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































                                  >
                                  >
                                • Joe - WDØM
                                  Bottom line is that your car that you drive to Houston (and probably your ham radio equipment) uses metric parts - and if you work on it, you probably have
                                  Message 16 of 24 , May 4 3:05 PM
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                                    Bottom line is that your car that you drive to Houston (and probably your ham radio equipment) uses metric parts - and if you work on it, you probably have metric tools in your tool box.  Your mechanic certainly does.

                                    Having lived and worked around the world, and driven the autobahnen of Germany at well over 200 kph, as well as the English motorways at their maximum mph allowed, I find it sad that closed mindedness ends up in someone not reading an article simply based upon dimensional measurement.  That ends up in an individual's not understanding, in toto, the arguments set forth therein because they don't want to learn another form of dimensional measurement.  We certainly don't want to understand the rest of the world....

                                    My Corvette has a button I can push to switch from mph to kph - it's fun to see the look on a passenger's face when we're doing over 100 kph, and they think it's mph.  At least Chevrolet understands that being American doesn't obviate the possibility that American owners understand metrics.....

                                    I still love the "larger" score offered by using kilometers.  However, I suppose we could revert to the basis for the Anglo Saxon system which we now call the inch/foot/yard system:  "
                                    both the foot and the yard are based on the Saxon ynce (inch), the foot being 36 barleycorns and the yard 108."   That means we'd be measuring distances as the width of barleycorns, and a mile would be 190,080 of them.  Come to think of it, THAT gives you a MUCH larger number than kilometers!  Anyone want to use a new system based upon miles?

                                    73,

                                    Joe
                                    WDØM

                                    Mike(W5UC) & Kathy(K5MWH) wrote:

                                    Joe - WDØM wrote:
                                    >
                                    > In this country, in most every industrial application, it's metric,
                                    > since we have to sell American products in the rest of the world. As
                                    > a former director of contracting for the USAF, I can assure you that
                                    > the equipment/aircraft/ systems we purchase are metric, are as most
                                    > parts on your American made automobile. So, I guess it does matter as
                                    > to what is being done in this country since large parts of your daily
                                    > life ARE metric - perhaps people haven't noticed.
                                    >
                                    > I have to agree - with metrics comes a "bigger" score!
                                    >
                                    > 73,
                                    >
                                    > Joe, Colonel, USAF (Ret)
                                    > WDØM
                                    > Texan by accident of birth
                                    >

                                    Joe, that's just fantastic, but the bottom line is that my wife & I
                                    don't drive a military jet to Houston and back. The fact still remains
                                    that the US population doesn't want distances in km, and we are still
                                    able to successfully make it from here to work, or from here to Dallas
                                    despite the fact that our distances are measured in those cruddy old
                                    miles miles. This still goes back to the parent and the child. Just
                                    because the folks in BFE do it doesn't mean that we should.

                                    73,
                                    Mike, W5UC
                                    "American by birth. Texan by the grace of God*
                                    http://www.the912pr oject.com
                                    http://www.suddenli nk.net/pages/ w5uc/

                                  • Paul Whatton
                                    Strange as it may seem, in the UK the adoption of litres for buying petrol and milk, or kg for buying groceries has become a normal part of daily life. Just
                                    Message 17 of 24 , May 4 3:21 PM
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                                      Strange as it may seem, in the UK the adoption of litres for buying
                                      petrol and milk, or kg for buying groceries has become a normal part of
                                      daily life. Just as my dual-national, bilingual children swap between
                                      their European languages, us oldies swap between metric & imperial
                                      without thinking about it. We do have some real curiosities, for example
                                      buying 4" x 2" timber in metre lengths :-) And if yu go to buy aluminium
                                      rod to build that new antenna you can't be sure until you measure it if
                                      it's been drawn in imperial or metric, something that's caught me out a
                                      few times. But as Dave G0DJA pointed out we have clung onto the really
                                      important things like buying beer in the pub (but not the supermarket)
                                      in pints and driving in miles per hour :-) I don't think anyone feels
                                      less British because of metric. It's the swamping of British culture by
                                      Hollywood cinema & US TV that does that for us :-) (Retires under the
                                      table).

                                      73 Paul G4DCV

                                      Mike(W5UC) & Kathy(K5MWH) wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > /This is very sad, that one would stop reading an article based on such
                                      > an obscure viewpoint.
                                      >
                                      > Andy K3UK./
                                      >
                                      > Maybe so, maybe no. The reason we as a nation continue to drift toward
                                      > mediocrity is that we no longer stand up and say "I don't like that",
                                      > and others impose their will on us and move on.
                                      >
                                      > This thread has drifted waaaaayyyy off topic, so I will cease further
                                      > comment. Thanks for the discussion.
                                      >
                                      > 73,
                                      > Mike, W5UC
                                      > "American by birth. Texan by the grace of God*
                                      > http://www.the912project.com <http://www.the912project.com>
                                      > http://www.suddenlink.net/pages/w5uc/
                                      > <http://www.suddenlink.net/pages/w5uc/>
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • Paul Whatton
                                      PS I meant to ask. Are you guys going to start asking for MS skeds on the 6 foot 6 and 7 tenths band? :-) Happy days 73 Paul G4DCV
                                      Message 18 of 24 , May 4 3:32 PM
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                                        PS I meant to ask. Are you guys going to start asking for MS skeds on
                                        the 6 foot 6 and 7 tenths band? :-)

                                        Happy days

                                        73 Paul G4DCV
                                      • Joe - WDØM
                                        I always thought that mediocrity was a result of not trying harder to understand new things and improve yourself..... See y all on the 6 foot 6 and 7 tenths
                                        Message 19 of 24 , May 4 3:42 PM
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                                          I always thought that mediocrity was a result of not trying harder to understand new things and improve yourself.....

                                          "See y'all on the "
                                          6 foot 6 and 7 tenths band"  (Thanks Paul!)

                                          73,

                                          Joe
                                          WDØM
                                          Texan by accident of birth
                                          Mike(W5UC) & Kathy(K5MWH) wrote:
                                          " Maybe so, maybe no. The reason we as a nation continue to drift toward  mediocrity is that we no longer stand up and say "I don't like that",  and others impose their will on us and move on."
                                          Mike, W5UC
                                          "American by birth. Texan by the grace of God*
                                        • Paul Whatton
                                          Hi Joe I couldn t be bothered to work out what 50MHz was- 19 feet something :-) While I m at it can I just mention another thing on this topic that gets right
                                          Message 20 of 24 , May 4 4:07 PM
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                                            Hi Joe

                                            I couldn't be bothered to work out what 50MHz was- 19 feet something :-)

                                            While I'm at it can I just mention another thing on this topic that gets
                                            right up my nose. :-) Why oh why do M2 not give metric dimensions as
                                            well as inches in their instructions? I've bought three of their
                                            (excellent) antennas for 2m, a pair of 5W 17s for the contest group and
                                            a 9 ele which I use here at home. I sometimes have to assemble the 17
                                            eles in the dark, when it's cold and blowing a gale and when I'd really,
                                            really rather be tucked up in the warm pub (pub = bar) down the road.

                                            To centre just one element taking into account the variable boom
                                            diameter just isn't any fun at all using inches and fractions of them.
                                            And I have 34 of the damn things to do! On VHF National Field Day we run
                                            two arrays of 5W 17 eles which we assemble in a farmer's field and so
                                            that's 68 elements!!! Arghhhh! Millimetres would be so much easier...
                                            Trust me, it would. At least in the UK we have tape measures that have
                                            inches on them as well as metric.

                                            My poor friends inthe rest of Europe who have never seen an inch, let
                                            alone know what 6 of them look like, are stuffed!

                                            Why do M2 do this to us? Surely not arrogance or a one finger salute to
                                            their customers in Europe? Great yagis, bloody awful parochial instructions!

                                            Metric rules KO!

                                            73 Paul G4DCV

                                            Joe - WDØM wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > I always thought that mediocrity was a result of not trying harder to
                                            > understand new things and improve yourself.....
                                            >
                                            > "See y'all on the "6 foot 6 and 7 tenths band" (Thanks Paul!)
                                            >
                                            > 73,
                                            >
                                            > Joe
                                            > WDØM
                                            > Texan by accident of birth
                                            >> Mike(W5UC) & Kathy(K5MWH) wrote:
                                            >>> " Maybe so, maybe no. The reason we as a nation continue to drift
                                            >>> toward mediocrity is that we no longer stand up and say "I don't
                                            >>> like that", and others impose their will on us and move on."
                                            >>> Mike, W5UC
                                            >>> "American by birth. Texan by the grace of God*
                                            >
                                            >
                                          • Joe - WDØM
                                            Metrics are just to much easier to work with....no trying to figure out feet and inches.....when I lived in Germany, or traveled through Europe or Asia, it was
                                            Message 21 of 24 , May 4 8:24 PM
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                                              Metrics are just to much easier to work with....no trying to figure out feet and inches.....when I lived in Germany, or traveled through Europe or Asia, it was so easy.  I'm ambi-dimensional, I suppose....I can get by with either - but metric measurement is just so logical...as highlighted when NASA used Imperial units of measurement instead of metrics, causing the Mars Climate Orbiter to miss its mark and destroy the spacecraft.

                                              Next time I'm in Europe, I'll pick up the tab for a pint and a plowmans at your favorite pub...until then, kilometers for measuring distance in WSJT sounds fine to me.

                                              Cheers,

                                              Joe
                                              WDØM

                                              Paul Whatton wrote:

                                              Hi Joe

                                              I couldn't be bothered to work out what 50MHz was- 19 feet something :-)

                                              While I'm at it can I just mention another thing on this topic that gets
                                              right up my nose. :-) Why oh why do M2 not give metric dimensions as
                                              well as inches in their instructions? I've bought three of their
                                              (excellent) antennas for 2m, a pair of 5W 17s for the contest group and
                                              a 9 ele which I use here at home. I sometimes have to assemble the 17
                                              eles in the dark, when it's cold and blowing a gale and when I'd really,
                                              really rather be tucked up in the warm pub (pub = bar) down the road.

                                              To centre just one element taking into account the variable boom
                                              diameter just isn't any fun at all using inches and fractions of them.
                                              And I have 34 of the damn things to do! On VHF National Field Day we run
                                              two arrays of 5W 17 eles which we assemble in a farmer's field and so
                                              that's 68 elements!!! Arghhhh! Millimetres would be so much easier...
                                              Trust me, it would. At least in the UK we have tape measures that have
                                              inches on them as well as metric.

                                              My poor friends inthe rest of Europe who have never seen an inch, let
                                              alone know what 6 of them look like, are stuffed!

                                              Why do M2 do this to us? Surely not arrogance or a one finger salute to
                                              their customers in Europe? Great yagis, bloody awful parochial instructions!

                                              Metric rules KO!

                                              73 Paul G4DCV

                                              Joe - WDØM wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > I always thought that mediocrity was a result of not trying harder to
                                              > understand new things and improve yourself.... .
                                              >
                                              > "See y'all on the "6 foot 6 and 7 tenths band" (Thanks Paul!)
                                              >
                                              > 73,
                                              >
                                              > Joe
                                              > WDØM
                                              > Texan by accident of birth
                                              >> Mike(W5UC) & Kathy(K5MWH) wrote:
                                              >>> " Maybe so, maybe no. The reason we as a nation continue to drift
                                              >>> toward mediocrity is that we no longer stand up and say "I don't
                                              >>> like that", and others impose their will on us and move on."
                                              >>> Mike, W5UC
                                              >>> "American by birth. Texan by the grace of God*
                                              >
                                              >

                                            • Russ K2TXB
                                              Well Mike, if you don t think the US has converted to metric then you must never have to work on any cars, tractors, lawn mowers, wheelbarrows, etc with hand
                                              Message 22 of 24 , May 4 8:47 PM
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                                                Well Mike, if you don't think the US has converted to metric then you must never have to work on any cars, tractors, lawn mowers, wheelbarrows, etc with hand tools.  These days it is not only necessary to have a full set of wrenches and sockets in both US and metric sizes; you also have to maintain a stock of metric sized nuts, bolts, and washers.  Also metric size taps and dies.  And this is just for a hobbyist.  I imagine that any auto shop would tell of an even greater requirement.
                                                 
                                                Also I see a lot of road signs, these days that show distances in KM.  Medical tubing is measured in centimeters as are a lot of other medical and scientific supplies and tools.
                                                 
                                                While I like the old 1/4, 3/8. 7/16, 1/2, 5/8, 9/16, 3/4. 7/8 inch wrenches, it is time to realize that it would be better if the whole world was on the same standard.  Of course places that sell tools are making out with the current dual system as they get to sell twice as much stuff.
                                                 
                                                73, Russ K2TXB
                                                 
                                                PS: It seems pretty petty to "Lose Respect" for Gene over such a small point.  I have known Gene for many years and he is a very enthusiastic VHF and above operator and supporter.  I also do not agree with his comments on FSK441, but I can respect the man without requiring him to always agree with me.
                                                 


                                                From: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike(W5UC) & Kathy(K5MWH)
                                                Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 4:29 PM
                                                To: Joe - WDØM
                                                Cc: WSJT Group
                                                Subject: Re: [wsjtgroup] Picking a Bone With Gene

                                                Joe - WDØM wrote:
                                                >
                                                > "Many years ago US Metric Association took a survey to determine which
                                                > countries have /officially/ adopted the metric system. According to
                                                > that survey, the only other countries besides the U.S. that have not
                                                > /officially/ adopted the metric system are *Liberia* (in western
                                                > Africa) and *Burma* (also known as *Myanmar*, in Southeast Asia)."
                                                >
                                                > http://lamar. colostate. edu/~hillger/ internat. htm
                                                >
                                                > I see the believers in non-metric standards are in good company
                                                > internationally.
                                                >

                                                On this matter, what happens in some other country is unimportant. I
                                                remember a number of years ago when there was a big push to force the US
                                                to convert to metric. It didn't happen, and isn't likely to.
                                                /Unofficially or officially, the people of this country didn't/don't
                                                want it. / This argument reminds me of the parent asking the child why
                                                he/she did a particular thing, and the child responds "well, Bobby did
                                                it". It would appear that the influence of the US Metric Association is
                                                insignificant at best.

                                                73,
                                                Mike, W5UC
                                                "American by birth. Texan by the grace of God*
                                                http://www.the912pr oject.com
                                                http://www.suddenli nk.net/pages/ w5uc/

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