Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Newbie Question from an "Oldtimer"

Expand Messages
  • Mark Hambrice
    Ok, I ve been around Meteor Scatter and have been interested in EME for some time now and I should know this, but... when someone says that they have so many
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 21, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      Ok, I've been around Meteor Scatter and have been interested in EME for some time now and I should know this, but... when someone says that they have so many "initials", or completed a new "initial", what are they refering to? Is it possibly working a particular grid for the first time?
       
      I've heard the term used over the years, but I never really gave it much thought. Perhaps it is just sinility setting in after too much rf floating around the shack. 
       
      Mark
    • George Sintchak/WA2VNV
      Mark, initials are the same as grid squares. Not sure where the usage came from, but seems to be from European stations. Maybe someone will enlighten us.
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 21, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        Mark,
        "initials" are the same as grid squares.
        Not sure where the usage came from, but seems to be from European stations.
        Maybe someone will enlighten us.
         
        George
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 12:00 PM
        Subject: [wsjtgroup] Newbie Question from an "Oldtimer"

        Ok, I've been around Meteor Scatter and have been interested in EME for some time now and I should know this, but... when someone says that they have so many "initials", or completed a new "initial", what are they refering to? Is it possibly working a particular grid for the first time?
         
        I've heard the term used over the years, but I never really gave it much thought. Perhaps it is just sinility setting in after too much rf floating around the shack. 
         
        Mark

      • Randy Tipton
        Initials mean the total number of unique calls worked. This definition is copied from K1SIX s six meter listing of initials. Snip: For these particular tables,
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 21, 2008
        • 0 Attachment

          Initials mean the total number of unique calls worked. This definition is copied from K1SIX’s six meter listing of initials.

           

          Snip:

          For these particular tables, the definition of a new "INITIAL CONTACT" is as follows:  Either a different callsign
          OR the same callsign that travels to a different 4 digit grid square OR STATE OR DXCC Entity even if that State
          or DXCC entity is within the original 4 digit grid square!

          End of paste…

           

          The Random QSO Award is obtained by working 15 Initials during random hour sessions or approved events

          as stated in the rules such as: NAHSMS Contests, January & September Contests etc. There is a table of RQA Standings

          on the wsjtgroup webpage.

           

          Bob K1SIX keeps a table of MS records including “Initials” which can be found at:

          http://k1six.com/6MWSJT.htm There are other databases as well where operators can enter their “Initials” for meteor
          scatter contacts.  

           

          Some databases have distorted numbers and this is probably due to stations not understanding the definition
          as given on K1SIX’s webpage for an initial contact.  So I believe your question is important and it would be helpful
          to have that definition posted on websites which have Standings Tables for MS Initials.

           

          My numbers are as following: Meteor Scatter  Initials 50 MHz = 346 and 144 MHz = 218 .  As with any data, it required
          a discipline to maintain accurate information and thank goodness for logging programs
          .

           

          Hope that helps…

          Randy Tipton (Tip)
          WA5UFH EL19pa
          778 CR 123
          Edna , Texas 77957 
          Email                             : wa5ufh@...
          __________________________________
          Web Pages                 :
          Home Page                 : www.qsl.net/wa5ufh
          WSJTGROUP                       : www.ykc.com/wa5ufh
          NAHSMS Contest Site       : www.ykc.com/wa5ufh/Rally/NAHSMS.htm
          Digital On Six            : www.ykc.com/wa5ufh/DOS/index.html

          -----Original Message-----
          From:
          wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Hambrice
          Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 11:00 AM
          To:
          wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [wsjtgroup] Newbie Question from an "Oldtimer"

           

          Ok, I've been around Meteor Scatter and have been interested in EME for some time now and I should know this, but... when someone says that they have so many "initials", or completed a new "initial", what are they refering to? Is it possibly working a particular grid for the first time?

           

          I've heard the term used over the years, but I never really gave it much thought. Perhaps it is just sinility setting in after too much rf floating around the shack. 

           

          Mark

        • Russ K2TXB
          Hi Randy. One important point is that if a guest operator operates at your station, it is NOT a new initial for the people he contacts (unless they have not
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 21, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Randy. One important point is that if a guest operator operates at your station, it is NOT a new initial for the people he contacts (unless they have not already worked you).  For most operations no one cares all that much about that, but the EME community is very concious about it.  For that reason, when I operate as a guest at any EME station, I always use the call of the station and not my own.  It makes it much easier for the people I contact to determine if it is a new initial for them.
             
            73, Russ K2TXB


            From: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Randy Tipton
            Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 12:41 PM
            To: 'Mark Hambrice'; wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] RE: [wsjtgroup] Newbie Question from an "Oldtimer"

            Initials mean the total number of unique calls worked. This definition is copied from K1SIX’s six meter listing of initials.

             

            Snip:

            For these particular tables, the definition of a new "INITIAL CONTACT" is as follows:  Either a different callsign
            OR the same callsign that travels to a different 4 digit grid square OR STATE OR DXCC Entity even if that State
            or DXCC entity is within the original 4 digit grid square!

            End of paste…

             

            The Random QSO Award is obtained by working 15 Initials during random hour sessions or approved events

            as stated in the rules such as: NAHSMS Contests, January & September Contests etc. There is a table of RQA Standings

            on the wsjtgroup webpage.

             

            Bob K1SIX keeps a table of MS records including “Initials” which can be found at:

            http://k1six. com/6MWSJT. htm There are other databases as well where operators can enter their “Initials” for meteor
            scatter contacts.  

             

            Some databases have distorted numbers and this is probably due to stations not understanding the definition
            as given on K1SIX’s webpage for an initial contact.  So I believe your question is important and it would be helpful
            to have that definition posted on websites which have Standings Tables for MS Initials.

             

            My numbers are as following: Meteor Scatter  Initials 50 MHz = 346 and 144 MHz = 218 .  As with any data, it required
            a discipline to maintain accurate information and thank goodness for logging programs
            .

             

            Hope that helps…

            Randy Tipton (Tip)
            WA5UFH EL19pa
            778 CR 123
            Edna , Texas 77957 
            Email                             : wa5ufh@...
            ____________ _________ _________ ____
            Web Pages                 :
            Home Page                 : www.qsl.net/ wa5ufh
            WSJTGROUP                       : www.ykc.com/ wa5ufh
            NAHSMS Contest Site       : www.ykc.com/ wa5ufh/Rally/ NAHSMS.htm
            Digital On Six            : www.ykc.com/ wa5ufh/DOS/ index.html

            -----Original Message-----
            From:
            wsjtgroup@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of Mark Hambrice
            Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 11:00 AM
            To:
            wsjtgroup@yahoogrou ps.com
            Subject: [wsjtgroup] Newbie Question from an "Oldtimer"

             

            Ok, I've been around Meteor Scatter and have been interested in EME for some time now and I should know this, but... when someone says that they have so many "initials", or completed a new "initial", what are they refering to? Is it possibly working a particular grid for the first time?

             

            I've heard the term used over the years, but I never really gave it much thought. Perhaps it is just sinility setting in after too much rf floating around the shack. 

             

            Mark

          • Randy Tipton
            First, I am not an authority however using the definition given this is the way I see it for your scenarios ... Snip: Either a different callsign OR the
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 21, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              First, I am not an authority however using the definition given this is the
              way I see it for your scenarios ...

              Snip:
              Either a different callsign OR the /_same callsign_/ that travels to a
              different 4 digit grid square OR STATE OR DXCC Entity even if that State
              or DXCC entity is within the original 4 digit grid square!


              Using the same call in the 1980 from two different grids would qualify as
              two initials for those working G4DCV in both grids.

              If you operate with (3) different calls signs from the same location,
              stations working you would qualify for 3 initials with completions with each
              call. They are all unique calls in a specific grid.

              If you work stations using the club call, those stations working you for the
              first time have a unique call which is an initial.

              It appears to me that the definition covers all the situations you gave.

              In some families with more than one licensed ham you can get additional
              initials easily by changing operators / calls. Of course each must be a
              legit completion.

              I have worked KD5IUG/M via meteor scatter in numerous grids. When Bruce
              received his new call N5SIX I was able to work him again in all those grids
              for new initials with his new call.

              Perhaps the best way to look at it is from the receiving stations
              perspective. He logs different unique calls even if it is all worked from
              the same station at the same location on the same day.

              Paul G4DCV, you have plenty of initials to give out! Now if you used too
              many calls it would dilute your count of initials worked? (maybe a
              disadvantage and you have to keep records for initial contacts for each call
              used!)

              To my knowledge the "Initials" figure is not used for any awards except the
              RQA which takes only 15 initials for the certificate. Mostly it can be used
              for bragging etc. The numbers also demonstrate to a newbie or someone just
              getting started what is possible using say eme or ms on a specific band. At
              one time in NA there were only a few operators using HSMS. So a newbie can
              look at the initials worked by stations in close proximity and know what
              they can expect to work or hear. No one wants to get on a new band or mode
              and have nobody to work.

              Maybe the definition in Eu does not fit but I believe it has been accepted
              for NA. I see stations posting "initials" for 222 / 432 / EME / MS etc.

              I wonder if there are other definitions for "Initials" in NA or is the above
              definitions accepted?


              Randy Tipton (Tip)
              WA5UFH EL19pa
              778 CR 123
              Edna , Texas 77957
              Email : wa5ufh@...
              __________________________________
              Web Pages :
              Home Page : www.qsl.net/wa5ufh
              WSJTGROUP : www.ykc.com/wa5ufh
              NAHSMS Contest Site : www.ykc.com/wa5ufh/Rally/NAHSMS.htm
              Digital On Six : www.ykc.com/wa5ufh/DOS/index.html


              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Paul Whatton [mailto:paul@...]
              > Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 1:27 PM
              > To: Randy Tipton
              > Subject: Re: [wsjtgroup] Newbie Question from an "Oldtimer"
              >
              > Hi Randy
              >
              > Thanks for posting this. I hadn't seen this definition of an initial
              > which I had always assumed to mean a new unique station or the same
              > callsign in a different grid square. The definition poses some questions
              > for me.
              >
              > This is going to get complex. :-)
              >
              > Back in the 1980s I worked several stations as G4DCV on EME CW from
              > JO01. Then in the past 4 years having moved house to IO91 I got
              > interested in EME again. So working the same stations again means they
              > have 2 initials from me? (I've done this with W5UN and KB8RQ and
              > possibly some others)
              >
              > But I'm now the current holder of 3 different callsigns from here at home.
              >
              > In the UK those of us who had a B Class (VHF only) licence issued in the
              > past and then later took the CW test to upgrade to a A Class full
              > licence have been allowed to re-apply for our B callsigns because the CW
              > test is no longer required for HF. I had G8FUR (a B licence) issued in
              > 1972 and then surrendered it in 1974 after passing the CW test and got
              > G4DCV. But when the rules changed, for old times sake, I asked for G8FUR
              > back and now hold it in addition to G4DCV. I can use either and both
              > hold the same full UK priveleges.
              >
              > One day I answered a CQ from KB8RQ (or maybe it was W5UN) as G8FUR just
              > for fun. So he now has 3 initials from me from two different QTHs?
              >
              > But to make things even more complex I'm also the holder of a club call
              > which we use for contests, M0MAD. If I work KB8RQ as M0MAD does he have
              > 4 initials? And then if my friend M0COH comes around and operates my
              > station as M0COH/P does KB8RQ have 5 initials from two different QTHs?
              >
              > It all seems a bit odd. Maybe I'm missing something or maybe the
              > definition of an initial needs a re-visit?
              >
              > Regards
              >
              > Paul G4DCV (mostly)
              >
              > Randy Tipton wrote:
              > >
              > > Initials mean the total number of unique calls worked. This definition
              > > is copied from K1SIX's six meter listing of initials.
              > >
              > > Snip:
              > >
              > > For these particular tables, the definition of a new "INITIAL CONTACT"
              > > is as follows: Either a different callsign
              > > OR the /_same callsign_/ that travels to a different 4 digit grid
              > > square OR STATE OR DXCC Entity even if that State
              > > or DXCC entity is within the original 4 digit grid square!
              > >
              > > End of paste.
              > >
              > > The Random QSO Award is obtained by working 15 Initials during random
              > > hour sessions or approved events
              > >
              > > as stated in the rules such as: NAHSMS Contests, January & September
              > > Contests etc. There is a table of RQA Standings
              > >
              > > on the wsjtgroup webpage.
              > >
              > > Bob K1SIX keeps a table of MS records including "Initials" which can
              > > be found at:
              > >
              > > http://k1six.com/6MWSJT.htm <http://k1six.com/6MWSJT.htm> There are
              > > other databases as well where operators can enter their "Initials" for
              > > meteor
              > > scatter contacts.
              > >
              > > Some databases have distorted numbers and this is probably due to
              > > stations not understanding the definition
              > > as given on K1SIX's webpage for an initial contact. So I believe your
              > > question is important and it would be helpful
              > > to have that definition posted on websites which have Standings Tables
              > > for MS Initials.
              > >
              > > My numbers are as following: Meteor Scatter Initials 50 MHz = 346 and
              > > 144 MHz = 218 . As with any data, it required
              > > a discipline to maintain accurate information and thank goodness for
              > > logging programs.
              > >
              > > Hope that helps.
              > >
              > > Randy Tipton (Tip)
              > > WA5UFH EL19pa
              > > 778 CR 123
              > > Edna , Texas 77957
              > > Email : wa5ufh@...
              > > __________________________________
              > > Web Pages :
              > > Home Page : www.qsl.net/wa5ufh
              > > WSJTGROUP : www.ykc.com/wa5ufh
              > > NAHSMS Contest Site : www.ykc.com/wa5ufh/Rally/NAHSMS.htm
              > > Digital On Six : www.ykc.com/wa5ufh/DOS/index.html
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > *From:* wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com]
              > > *On Behalf Of *Mark Hambrice
              > > *Sent:* Thursday, February 21, 2008 11:00 AM
              > > *To:* wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com
              > > *Subject:* [wsjtgroup] Newbie Question from an "Oldtimer"
              > >
              > > Ok, I've been around Meteor Scatter and have been interested in EME
              > > for some time now and I //should// know this, but... when someone says
              > > that they have so many "initials", or completed a new "initial", what
              > > are they refering to? Is it possibly working a particular grid for the
              > > first time?
              > >
              > > I've heard the term used over the years, but I never really gave it
              > > much thought. Perhaps it is just sinility setting in after too much rf
              > > floating around the shack.
              > >
              > > Mark
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > >
              > > No virus found in this incoming message.
              > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
              > > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.9/1290 - Release Date:
              > 20/02/2008 20:45
              > >
            • Russ K2TXB
              Randy, you did not comment on my previous post in your reply to Paul, but I want to make my point again, and in (I hope) a slightly clearer way. In the EME
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 21, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Randy, you did not comment on my previous post in your reply to Paul, but I want to make my point again, and in (I hope) a slightly clearer way.
                 
                In the EME community, a new initial is not determined as a new call sign, but by whether or not you have previously worked the same physical station in the same physical location.
                 
                Thus if I get a new call and continue operating at the same location it does not count for a new initial for anyone.  Nor does it count if I operate my station with a different call for a contest, or just a guest operator - because it is the same station.
                 
                On the other hand, if I pack up my station and move it to a different location, that is far enough away, then it does count for a new initial even though I use the same call sign.
                 
                Another example would be if a portable station sets up his station on my property.  Now this is a different set of physical equipment, and everyone he works gets a new initial from it.
                 
                In no case does the call sign used matter, it is the station and location that matters.  Therefore I contend that whoever said it was determined by a different call sign is incorrect.
                 
                Logically, what bragging rights would I have by saying I have worked 15000 initials on 2 meters, if half of them were duplicate contacts with the same station, but using a different call?  It is far more of an achievement that I can say that I worked 15000 different stations on 2 meters.
                 
                I think a lot of the newer hams do not recognise the difference between a station and a call.  But it is significant.  I invite anyone to post this same question on moon-net.  I think you will find that everyone there will agree with the above.  But I do not believe this definition of initials should be exclusive to EME.  It makes more sense in general.
                 
                Very 73, Russ K2TXB
                 


                From: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Randy Tipton
                Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 6:07 PM
                To: 'Paul Whatton'; wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [wsjtgroup] Newbie Question from an "Oldtimer"

                First, I am not an authority however using the definition given this is the
                way I see it for your scenarios ...

                Snip:
                Either a different callsign OR the /_same callsign_/ that travels to a
                different 4 digit grid square OR STATE OR DXCC Entity even if that State
                or DXCC entity is within the original 4 digit grid square!

                Using the same call in the 1980 from two different grids would qualify as
                two initials for those working G4DCV in both grids.

                If you operate with (3) different calls signs from the same location,
                stations working you would qualify for 3 initials with completions with each
                call. They are all unique calls in a specific grid.

                If you work stations using the club call, those stations working you for the
                first time have a unique call which is an initial.

                It appears to me that the definition covers all the situations you gave.

                In some families with more than one licensed ham you can get additional
                initials easily by changing operators / calls. Of course each must be a
                legit completion.

                I have worked KD5IUG/M via meteor scatter in numerous grids. When Bruce
                received his new call N5SIX I was able to work him again in all those grids
                for new initials with his new call.

                Perhaps the best way to look at it is from the receiving stations
                perspective. He logs different unique calls even if it is all worked from
                the same station at the same location on the same day.

                Paul G4DCV, you have plenty of initials to give out! Now if you used too
                many calls it would dilute your count of initials worked? (maybe a
                disadvantage and you have to keep records for initial contacts for each call
                used!)

                To my knowledge the "Initials" figure is not used for any awards except the
                RQA which takes only 15 initials for the certificate. Mostly it can be used
                for bragging etc. The numbers also demonstrate to a newbie or someone just
                getting started what is possible using say eme or ms on a specific band. At
                one time in NA there were only a few operators using HSMS. So a newbie can
                look at the initials worked by stations in close proximity and know what
                they can expect to work or hear. No one wants to get on a new band or mode
                and have nobody to work.

                Maybe the definition in Eu does not fit but I believe it has been accepted
                for NA. I see stations posting "initials" for 222 / 432 / EME / MS etc.

                I wonder if there are other definitions for "Initials" in NA or is the above
                definitions accepted?

                Randy Tipton (Tip)
                WA5UFH EL19pa
                778 CR 123
                Edna , Texas 77957
                Email : wa5ufh@...
                ____________ _________ _________ ____
                Web Pages :
                Home Page : www.qsl.net/ wa5ufh
                WSJTGROUP : www.ykc.com/ wa5ufh
                NAHSMS Contest Site : www.ykc.com/ wa5ufh/Rally/ NAHSMS.htm
                Digital On Six : www.ykc.com/ wa5ufh/DOS/ index.html


                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Paul Whatton [mailto:paul@.... uk]
                > Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 1:27 PM
                > To: Randy Tipton
                > Subject: Re: [wsjtgroup] Newbie Question from an "Oldtimer"
                >
                > Hi Randy
                >
                > Thanks for posting this. I hadn't seen this definition of an initial
                > which I had always assumed to mean a new unique station or the same
                > callsign in a different grid square. The definition poses some questions
                > for me.
                >
                > This is going to get complex. :-)
                >
                > Back in the 1980s I worked several stations as G4DCV on EME CW from
                > JO01. Then in the past 4 years having moved house to IO91 I got
                > interested in EME again. So working the same stations again means they
                > have 2 initials from me? (I've done this with W5UN and KB8RQ and
                > possibly some others)
                >
                > But I'm now the current holder of 3 different callsigns from here at home.
                >
                > In the UK those of us who had a B Class (VHF only) licence issued in the
                > past and then later took the CW test to upgrade to a A Class full
                > licence have been allowed to re-apply for our B callsigns because the CW
                > test is no longer required for HF. I had G8FUR (a B licence) issued in
                > 1972 and then surrendered it in 1974 after passing the CW test and got
                > G4DCV. But when the rules changed, for old times sake, I asked for G8FUR
                > back and now hold it in addition to G4DCV. I can use either and both
                > hold the same full UK priveleges.
                >
                > One day I answered a CQ from KB8RQ (or maybe it was W5UN) as G8FUR just
                > for fun. So he now has 3 initials from me from two different QTHs?
                >
                > But to make things even more complex I'm also the holder of a club call
                > which we use for contests, M0MAD. If I work KB8RQ as M0MAD does he have
                > 4 initials? And then if my friend M0COH comes around and operates my
                > station as M0COH/P does KB8RQ have 5 initials from two different QTHs?
                >
                > It all seems a bit odd. Maybe I'm missing something or maybe the
                > definition of an initial needs a re-visit?
                >
                > Regards
                >
                > Paul G4DCV (mostly)
                >
                > Randy Tipton wrote:
                > >
                > > Initials mean the total number of unique calls worked. This definition
                > > is copied from K1SIX's six meter listing of initials.
                > >
                > > Snip:
                > >
                > > For these particular tables, the definition of a new "INITIAL CONTACT"
                > > is as follows: Either a different callsign
                > > OR the /_same callsign_/ that travels to a different 4 digit grid
                > > square OR STATE OR DXCC Entity even if that State
                > > or DXCC entity is within the original 4 digit grid square!
                > >
                > > End of paste.
                > >
                > > The Random QSO Award is obtained by working 15 Initials during random
                > > hour sessions or approved events
                > >
                > > as stated in the rules such as: NAHSMS Contests, January & September
                > > Contests etc. There is a table of RQA Standings
                > >
                > > on the wsjtgroup webpage.
                > >
                > > Bob K1SIX keeps a table of MS records including "Initials" which can
                > > be found at:
                > >
                > > http://k1six. com/6MWSJT. htm <http://k1six. com/6MWSJT. htm> There are
                > > other databases as well where operators can enter their "Initials" for
                > > meteor
                > > scatter contacts.
                > >
                > > Some databases have distorted numbers and this is probably due to
                > > stations not understanding the definition
                > > as given on K1SIX's webpage for an initial contact. So I believe your
                > > question is important and it would be helpful
                > > to have that definition posted on websites which have Standings Tables
                > > for MS Initials.
                > >
                > > My numbers are as following: Meteor Scatter Initials 50 MHz = 346 and
                > > 144 MHz = 218 . As with any data, it required
                > > a discipline to maintain accurate information and thank goodness for
                > > logging programs.
                > >
                > > Hope that helps.
                > >
                > > Randy Tipton (Tip)
                > > WA5UFH EL19pa
                > > 778 CR 123
                > > Edna , Texas 77957
                > > Email : wa5ufh@...
                > > ____________ _________ _________ ____
                > > Web Pages :
                > > Home Page : www.qsl.net/ wa5ufh
                > > WSJTGROUP : www.ykc.com/ wa5ufh
                > > NAHSMS Contest Site : www.ykc.com/ wa5ufh/Rally/ NAHSMS.htm
                > > Digital On Six : www.ykc.com/ wa5ufh/DOS/ index.html
                > >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > *From:* wsjtgroup@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogrou ps.com]
                > > *On Behalf Of *Mark Hambrice
                > > *Sent:* Thursday, February 21, 2008 11:00 AM
                > > *To:* wsjtgroup@yahoogrou ps.com
                > > *Subject:* [wsjtgroup] Newbie Question from an "Oldtimer"
                > >
                > > Ok, I've been around Meteor Scatter and have been interested in EME
                > > for some time now and I //should// know this, but... when someone says
                > > that they have so many "initials", or completed a new "initial", what
                > > are they refering to? Is it possibly working a particular grid for the
                > > first time?
                > >
                > > I've heard the term used over the years, but I never really gave it
                > > much thought. Perhaps it is just sinility setting in after too much rf
                > > floating around the shack.
                > >
                > > Mark
                > >
                > >
                > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                > >
                > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                > > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.9/1290 - Release Date:
                > 20/02/2008 20:45
                > >

              • Randy Tipton
                Russ, I am not familiar with what eme operators have called initials Thanks for pointing out the differences. Where is the definition for an eme initial? I
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 21, 2008
                • 0 Attachment

                  Russ, I am not familiar with what eme operators have called initials Thanks for pointing out the differences. Where is the
                  definition for an eme initial? I would like to know for reference. (Note I have 1 eme initial, hi)

                   

                  So what you are saying is ms initials or different from eme. I was not aware of that.

                  Thanks…

                   

                  Tip (WA5UFH)

                   

                   

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From:
                  Russ K2TXB [mailto:k2txb@...]
                  Sent:
                  Thursday, February 21, 2008 9:21 PM
                  To:
                  'Randy Tipton'; 'Paul Whatton'; wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [wsjtgroup] Newbie Question from an "Oldtimer"

                   

                  Randy, you did not comment on my previous post in your reply to Paul, but I want to make my point again, and in (I hope) a slightly clearer way.

                   

                  In the EME community, a new initial is not determined as a new call sign, but by whether or not you have previously worked the same physical station in the same physical location.

                   

                  Thus if I get a new call and continue operating at the same location it does not count for a new initial for anyone.  Nor does it count if I operate my station with a different call for a contest, or just a guest operator - because it is the same station.

                   

                  On the other hand, if I pack up my station and move it to a different location, that is far enough away, then it does count for a new initial even though I use the same call sign.

                   

                  Another example would be if a portable station sets up his station on my property.  Now this is a different set of physical equipment, and everyone he works gets a new initial from it.

                   

                  In no case does the call sign used matter, it is the station and location that matters.  Therefore I contend that whoever said it was determined by a different call sign is incorrect.

                   

                  Logically, what bragging rights would I have by saying I have worked 15000 initials on 2 meters, if half of them were duplicate contacts with the same station, but using a different call?  It is far more of an achievement that I can say that I worked 15000 different stations on 2 meters.

                   

                  I think a lot of the newer hams do not recognise the difference between a station and a call.  But it is significant.  I invite anyone to post this same question on moon-net.  I think you will find that everyone there will agree with the above.  But I do not believe this definition of initials should be exclusive to EME.  It makes more sense in general.

                   

                  Very 73, Russ K2TXB

                   

                   


                  From: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Randy Tipton
                  Sent:
                  Thursday, February 21, 2008 6:07 PM
                  To: 'Paul Whatton'; wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [wsjtgroup] Newbie Question from an "Oldtimer"

                  First, I am not an authority however using the definition given this is the
                  way I see it for your scenarios ...

                  Snip:
                  Either a different callsign OR the /_same callsign_/ that travels to a
                  different 4 digit grid square OR STATE OR DXCC Entity even if that State
                  or DXCC entity is within the original 4 digit grid square!

                  Using the same call in the 1980 from two different grids would qualify as
                  two initials for those working G4DCV in both grids.

                  If you operate with (3) different calls signs from the same location,
                  stations working you would qualify for 3 initials with completions with each
                  call. They are all unique calls in a specific grid.

                  If you work stations using the club call, those stations working you for the
                  first time have a unique call which is an initial.

                  It appears to me that the definition covers all the situations you gave.

                  In some families with more than one licensed ham you can get additional
                  initials easily by changing operators / calls. Of course each must be a
                  legit completion.

                  I have worked KD5IUG/M via meteor scatter in numerous grids. When Bruce
                  received his new call N5SIX I was able to work him again in all those grids
                  for new initials with his new call.

                  Perhaps the best way to look at it is from the receiving stations
                  perspective. He logs different unique calls even if it is all worked from
                  the same station at the same location on the same day.

                  Paul G4DCV, you have plenty of initials to give out! Now if you used too
                  many calls it would dilute your count of initials worked? (maybe a
                  disadvantage and you have to keep records for initial contacts for each call
                  used!)

                  To my knowledge the "Initials" figure is not used for any awards except the
                  RQA which takes only 15 initials for the certificate. Mostly it can be used
                  for bragging etc. The numbers also demonstrate to a newbie or someone just
                  getting started what is possible using say eme or ms on a specific band. At
                  one time in NA there were only a few operators using HSMS. So a newbie can
                  look at the initials worked by stations in close proximity and know what
                  they can expect to work or hear. No one wants to get on a new band or mode
                  and have nobody to work.

                  Maybe the definition in Eu does not fit but I believe it has been accepted
                  for NA. I see stations posting "initials" for 222 / 432 / EME / MS etc.

                  I wonder if there are other definitions for "Initials" in NA or is the above
                  definitions accepted?

                  Randy Tipton (Tip)
                  WA5UFH EL19pa
                  778 CR 123
                  Edna , Texas 77957
                  Email : wa5ufh@...
                  ____________ _________ _________ ____
                  Web Pages :
                  Home Page : www.qsl.net/ wa5ufh
                  WSJTGROUP : www.ykc.com/ wa5ufh
                  NAHSMS Contest Site : www.ykc.com/ wa5ufh/Rally/ NAHSMS.htm
                  Digital On Six : www.ykc.com/ wa5ufh/DOS/ index.html


                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Paul Whatton [mailto:paul@.... uk]
                  > Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 1:27 PM
                  > To: Randy Tipton
                  > Subject: Re: [wsjtgroup] Newbie Question from an "Oldtimer"
                  >
                  > Hi Randy
                  >
                  > Thanks for posting this. I hadn't seen this definition of an initial
                  > which I had always assumed to mean a new unique station or the same
                  > callsign in a different grid square. The definition poses some questions
                  > for me.
                  >
                  > This is going to get complex. :-)
                  >
                  > Back in the 1980s I worked several stations as G4DCV on EME CW from
                  > JO01. Then in the past 4 years having moved house to IO91 I got
                  > interested in EME again. So working the same stations again means they
                  > have 2 initials from me? (I've done this with W5UN and KB8RQ and
                  > possibly some others)
                  >
                  > But I'm now the current holder of 3 different callsigns from here at home.
                  >
                  > In the UK those of us who had a B Class (VHF only) licence issued in the
                  > past and then later took the CW test to upgrade to a A Class full
                  > licence have been allowed to re-apply for our B callsigns because the CW
                  > test is no longer required for HF. I had G8FUR (a B licence) issued in
                  > 1972 and then surrendered it in 1974 after passing the CW test and got
                  > G4DCV. But when the rules changed, for old times sake, I asked for G8FUR
                  > back and now hold it in addition to G4DCV. I can use either and both
                  > hold the same full UK priveleges.
                  >
                  > One day I answered a CQ from KB8RQ (or maybe it was W5UN) as G8FUR just
                  > for fun. So he now has 3 initials from me from two different QTHs?
                  >
                  > But to make things even more complex I'm also the holder of a club call
                  > which we use for contests, M0MAD. If I work KB8RQ as M0MAD does he have
                  > 4 initials? And then if my friend M0COH comes around and operates my
                  > station as M0COH/P does KB8RQ have 5 initials from two different QTHs?
                  >
                  > It all seems a bit odd. Maybe I'm missing something or maybe the
                  > definition of an initial needs a re-visit?
                  >
                  > Regards
                  >
                  > Paul G4DCV (mostly)
                  >
                  > Randy Tipton wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Initials mean the total number of unique calls worked. This definition
                  > > is copied from K1SIX's six meter listing of initials.
                  > >
                  > > Snip:
                  > >
                  > > For these particular tables, the definition of a new "INITIAL CONTACT"
                  > > is as follows: Either a different callsign
                  > > OR the /_same callsign_/ that travels to a different 4 digit grid
                  > > square OR STATE OR DXCC Entity even if that State
                  > > or DXCC entity is within the original 4 digit grid square!
                  > >
                  > > End of paste.
                  > >
                  > > The Random QSO Award is obtained by working 15 Initials during random
                  > > hour sessions or approved events
                  > >
                  > > as stated in the rules such as: NAHSMS Contests, January & September
                  > > Contests etc. There is a table of RQA Standings
                  > >
                  > > on the wsjtgroup webpage.
                  > >
                  > > Bob K1SIX keeps a table of MS records including "Initials" which can
                  > > be found at:
                  > >
                  > > http://k1six. com/6MWSJT. htm <http://k1six. com/6MWSJT. htm> There are
                  > > other databases as well where operators can enter their "Initials" for
                  > > meteor
                  > > scatter contacts.
                  > >
                  > > Some databases have distorted numbers and this is probably due to
                  > > stations not understanding the definition
                  > > as given on K1SIX's webpage for an initial contact. So I believe your
                  > > question is important and it would be helpful
                  > > to have that definition posted on websites which have Standings Tables
                  > > for MS Initials.
                  > >
                  > > My numbers are as following: Meteor Scatter Initials 50 MHz = 346 and
                  > > 144 MHz = 218 . As with any data, it required
                  > > a discipline to maintain accurate information and thank goodness for
                  > > logging programs.
                  > >
                  > > Hope that helps.
                  > >
                  > > Randy Tipton (Tip)
                  > > WA5UFH EL19pa
                  > > 778 CR 123
                  > > Edna , Texas 77957
                  > > Email : wa5ufh@...
                  > > ____________ _________ _________ ____
                  > > Web Pages :
                  > > Home Page : www.qsl.net/ wa5ufh
                  > > WSJTGROUP : www.ykc.com/ wa5ufh
                  > > NAHSMS Contest Site : www.ykc.com/ wa5ufh/Rally/ NAHSMS.htm
                  > > Digital On Six : www.ykc.com/ wa5ufh/DOS/ index.html
                  > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > *From:* wsjtgroup@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogrou ps.com]
                  > > *On Behalf Of *Mark Hambrice
                  > > *Sent:* Thursday, February 21, 2008 11:00 AM
                  > > *To:* wsjtgroup@yahoogrou ps.com
                  > > *Subject:* [wsjtgroup] Newbie Question from an "Oldtimer"
                  > >
                  > > Ok, I've been around Meteor Scatter and have been interested in EME
                  > > for some time now and I //should// know this, but... when someone says
                  > > that they have so many "initials", or completed a new "initial", what
                  > > are they refering to? Is it possibly working a particular grid for the
                  > > first time?
                  > >
                  > > I've heard the term used over the years, but I never really gave it
                  > > much thought. Perhaps it is just sinility setting in after too much rf
                  > > floating around the shack.
                  > >
                  > > Mark
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                  > >
                  > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                  > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                  > > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.9/1290 - Release Date:
                  > 20/02/2008 20:45
                  > >

                • Randy Tipton
                  Just the term Initial has various meaning in the VHF community as we have seen. Again that is why I like seeing the definition to describe a set of data like
                  Message 8 of 11 , Feb 22, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment

                    Just the term “Initial” has various meaning in the VHF community as we have seen.

                     

                    Again that is why I like seeing the definition to describe a set of data like the 6 Mtr tables on K1SIX’s website.

                    He states that for his tables this is how you determine your numbers…

                     

                    For these particular tables, the definition of a new "INITIAL CONTACT" is as follows:  Either a different callsign OR
                    the same callsign that travels to a different 4 digit grid square OR STATE OR DXCC Entity even if that State or DXCC
                    entity is within the original 4 digit grid square!

                     

                    The ARRL has rules for the VUCC etc. I suppose EME Standings have a different defimition?

                     

                    So when I say Initial Contact I mean “contact” i.e. station not grid.

                     

                    If  I work a new Grid, it is an “Initial Grid” and probably a “Initial Contact” also. Thus one would almost always have
                    more initial contacts than unique grids.

                     

                    By the way, I recommend six meter operators to use the K1SIX WSJT Standings Tables, they do show what is possible
                    with WSJT on the magic band. http://k1six.com/6MWSJT.htm

                     

                    It also appears the definition of “Initial” is propagation mode sensitive. (eme / ms / tropo)

                     

                    Randy (WA5UFH)

                     

                     

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From:
                    wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of George Sintchak/WA2VNV
                    Sent:
                    Thursday, February 21, 2008 11:07 AM
                    To:
                    Mark Hambrice; wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [wsjtgroup] Newbie Question from an "Oldtimer"

                     

                    Mark,

                    "initials" are the same as grid squares.

                    Not sure where the usage came from, but seems to be from European stations.

                    Maybe someone will enlighten us.

                     

                    George

                     

                     

                    ----- Original Message -----

                    Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 12:00 PM

                    Subject: [wsjtgroup] Newbie Question from an "Oldtimer"

                     

                    Ok, I've been around Meteor Scatter and have been interested in EME for some time now and I should know this, but... when someone says that they have so many "initials", or completed a new "initial", what are they refering to? Is it possibly working a particular grid for the first time?

                     

                    I've heard the term used over the years, but I never really gave it much thought. Perhaps it is just sinility setting in after too much rf floating around the shack. 

                     

                    Mark

                  • Mark Hambrice
                    Thanks Randy and the Group, Initially (pun intended), I thought it may have been intirely grid related. Now I see where the station ties in, also. I now have
                    Message 9 of 11 , Feb 22, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Thanks Randy and the Group,

                      Initially (pun intended), I thought it may have been intirely grid
                      related. Now I see where the station ties in, also.

                      I now have some references and I will check out the K1SIX site. I
                      really do appreciate all of the guidance.

                      I have never really thought about initials as a way of looking at my
                      contacts, being entirely grid motovated, but I can see where it would
                      be an interesting perspective.

                      Thanks again for all of the responses and help!

                      Mark, KØXXX
                    • Bryce Ofstie
                      Thanks for clearing that up Russ. After reading your description I was interested in how the logging program I use (VQLog) generates a summary of EME initials
                      Message 10 of 11 , Feb 22, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Thanks for clearing that up Russ. After reading your description I was
                        interested in how the logging program I use (VQLog) generates a summary of
                        EME initials and discovered it does have a manual method of letting it know
                        about equivalent callsigns (which I would not have used without this
                        discussion).

                        <clip from VQLog help>
                        Generates a summary of the EME initial QSOs for a certain band. In order to
                        produce an accurate summary you should provide the program with enough
                        information in the "EME" tab, such as equivalent callsigns (same initial) or
                        forcing the QSO as a new initial (change of QTH, etc.). The list of
                        equivalent callsigns is also accessible within the configuration options.
                        Use this window to maintain a list of equivalent callsigns. This is,
                        callsigns that must be treated by the program as belonging to the same
                        station or operator. This list is specially important to allow the program
                        to generate correct summaries of EME initials, but it is also used when
                        retrieving the list of QSOs with a certain station (all equivalent callsigns
                        will be shown) and in a few other functions.
                        <clip>

                        73,
                        Bryce, KI0LE

                        http://www.cpinternet.com/~ki0le/



                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Russ K2TXB" <k2txb@...>

                        > In the EME community, a new initial is not determined as a new call sign,
                        > but by whether or not you have previously worked the same physical station
                        > in the same physical location.
                      • Paul Whatton
                        Thanks Russ and everyone who replied to this and clarified what an initial means. I had always assumed that if I used my second callsign from here it wouldn t
                        Message 11 of 11 , Feb 22, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Thanks Russ and everyone who replied to this and clarified what an
                          initial means. I had always assumed that if I used my second callsign
                          from here it wouldn't count as a new initial which is why I was suprised
                          at the definition.

                          BTW do any of you need JO00 on 2m EME? Our M0MAD contest QTH is JO00EW
                          and I can rustle up a pair of M2 17 elements down there. I'll be there
                          for the ARRL HF SSB contest over the first weekend in March. It's also
                          the European 2m and 70cm contest but this year we are concentrating on
                          HF. No promises but if there are enough HF ops I may take 2m anyway. We
                          have internet so if I can be QRV on EME that weekend I'll pop up on the
                          JT65 EME chat at chris.org

                          73 Paul G4DCV/G8FUR/M0MAD
                          http://www.madjacks.org.uk

                          Russ K2TXB wrote:
                          > Randy, you did not comment on my previous post in your reply to Paul,
                          > but I want to make my point again, and in (I hope) a slightly clearer way.
                          >
                          > In the EME community, a new initial is not determined as a new call
                          > sign, but by whether or not you have previously worked the same
                          > physical station in the same physical location.
                          >
                          > Thus if I get a new call and continue operating at the same location
                          > it does not count for a new initial for anyone. Nor does it count if
                          > I operate my station with a different call for a contest, or just a
                          > guest operator - because it is the same station.
                          >
                          > On the other hand, if I pack up my station and move it to a different
                          > location, that is far enough away, then it does count for a new
                          > initial even though I use the same call sign.
                          >
                          > Another example would be if a portable station sets up his station on
                          > my property. Now this is a different set of physical equipment, and
                          > everyone he works gets a new initial from it.
                          >
                          > In no case does the call sign used matter, it is the station and
                          > location that matters. Therefore I contend that whoever said it was
                          > determined by a different call sign is incorrect.
                          >
                          > Logically, what bragging rights would I have by saying I have worked
                          > 15000 initials on 2 meters, if half of them were duplicate contacts
                          > with the same station, but using a different call? It is far more of
                          > an achievement that I can say that I worked 15000 different stations
                          > on 2 meters.
                          >
                          > I think a lot of the newer hams do not recognise the difference
                          > between a station and a call. But it is significant. I invite anyone
                          > to post this same question on moon-net. I think you will find that
                          > everyone there will agree with the above. But I do not believe this
                          > definition of initials should be exclusive to EME. It makes more
                          > sense in general.
                          >
                          > Very 73, Russ K2TXB
                          >
                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.