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Brendan Quest 2014

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  • ve1sky
    A group of amateurs will be attempting a 2m trans-Atlantic QSO from Pouch Cove, NF to EU from July 4-12, 2014. Details are available on our website:
    Message 1 of 4 , Mar 26, 2014

      A group of amateurs will be attempting a 2m  trans-Atlantic QSO from Pouch Cove, NF to EU from July 4-12, 2014.  Details are available on our website: www.brendanquest.org .


      The group will be attempting to complete the QSO in traditional CW or SSB to win the Brendan Trophy.  A Brendan Shield may be awarded for digital modes or HSCW. 


      I have a question for the WSJTGROUP that is being hotly debated in a private group and has not been resolved.  Given the need for double hop Es, chordal Es or a mixed mode of propagation such as Es and tropo, Es and meteors, or tropo and meteors; what would the best WSJT operating mode be? 


      Two possibilities are currently being debated:

      1) use JT65B as a CQ beacon on even minutes.  If a station copies us and the signal is audible, CW or SSB would be sent back (tailended) after a JT65B QSO or try.  If the signal is not audible, only the JT65B QSO would be attempted.


      2) use FSK441 constantly.  An EU ham points out that FSK441 DX greater than 3000km in EU has been achieved many times using meteors and Es or tropo-ducting and meteors.  He claims that JT65 on 2m has not achieved the DX required and should not be used.  Currently EU trans-Atlantic beacons are sending JT65B and CW in hopes of being heard and copied.


      A look at the Make More Miles on VHF website documents many of the EU DX events on 2m.  SSB, CW and FSK441 have been used.  The North Atlantic crossing may be a different context than 2m EU DX.


      A difference between Option1 and 2 is that as a weak signal mode JT65 can show sub-audible traces and meteors.  Non-continuous weak traces with or without meteors may indicate that another mode is necessary to get decodes.  FSK441 is not a weak signal mode and it will not 'see' those traces.    "Seeing signals' and 'decoding signals'  are two very different and desirable abilities and matching modes to propagation is essential to success. 


      The Brendan Team has run this topic around for several weeks.  If you are familiar with the nuances of the topic and care to discuss it here, the team and several advisors we have contacted will all be very interested in your insights as to the optimal way to do what hasn't yet been done - send and receive a 2m signal across the Atlantic.  All the information that you should need is found on the website: www.brendanquest.org   Please look at the website, debate and discuss among yourselves and team members will look for best approaches to the Brendan Quest. Thank you!  Your input will be part of all of our success.

      73,
      Roger (Sky),  VE1SKY

    • Daniel Brouillard
      Hi y a Roger ISCAT-B can be used on 2m also. Many time in light and very light tropo mixed with ionoscatter work pretty well on 2m and 6m. FSK441 was tested
      Message 2 of 4 , Mar 26, 2014
        Hi y'a Roger

        ISCAT-B can be used on 2m also. Many time in light and very light tropo mixed with ionoscatter work pretty well on 2m and 6m.

        FSK441 was tested with Jim WA3LBI many time and we find ISCAT-B was working each time on 2m and never heard Jim with FSK . ROger, Jim and I have about 375mi aways each other. This week end if you have time let try ISCAT-B for our 400mi distance on 2m

        For your project, I'm sure you can do something good with ISCAT-B. By the way, ISCAT are a bit more sensitive than FSK.

        Dany in FN35 the great black hole of the world...HI!

        On 2014-03-26 18:54, ve1sky@... wrote:
         

        A group of amateurs will be attempting a 2m  trans-Atlantic QSO from Pouch Cove, NF to EU from July 4-12, 2014.  Details are available on our website: www.brendanquest.org .


        The group will be attempting to complete the QSO in traditional CW or SSB to win the Brendan Trophy.  A Brendan Shield may be awarded for digital modes or HSCW. 


        I have a question for the WSJTGROUP that is being hotly debated in a private group and has not been resolved.  Given the need for double hop Es, chordal Es or a mixed mode of propagation such as Es and tropo, Es and meteors, or tropo and meteors; what would the best WSJT operating mode be? 


        Two possibilities are currently being debated:

        1) use JT65B as a CQ beacon on even minutes.  If a station copies us and the signal is audible, CW or SSB would be sent back (tailended) after a JT65B QSO or try.  If the signal is not audible, only the JT65B QSO would be attempted.


        2) use FSK441 constantly.  An EU ham points out that FSK441 DX greater than 3000km in EU has been achieved many times using meteors and Es or tropo-ducting and meteors.  He claims that JT65 on 2m has not achieved the DX required and should not be used.  Currently EU trans-Atlantic beacons are sending JT65B and CW in hopes of being heard and copied.


        A look at the Make More Miles on VHF website documents many of the EU DX events on 2m.  SSB, CW and FSK441 have been used.  The North Atlantic crossing may be a different context than 2m EU DX.


        A difference between Option1 and 2 is that as a weak signal mode JT65 can show sub-audible traces and meteors.  Non-continuous weak traces with or without meteors may indicate that another mode is necessary to get decodes.  FSK441 is not a weak signal mode and it will not 'see' those traces.    "Seeing signals' and 'decoding signals'  are two very different and desirable abilities and matching modes to propagation is essential to success. 


        The Brendan Team has run this topic around for several weeks.  If you are familiar with the nuances of the topic and care to discuss it here, the team and several advisors we have contacted will all be very interested in your insights as to the optimal way to do what hasn't yet been done - send and receive a 2m signal across the Atlantic.  All the information that you should need is found on the website: www.brendanquest.org   Please look at the website, debate and discuss among yourselves and team members will look for best approaches to the Brendan Quest. Thank you!  Your input will be part of all of our success.

        73,
        Roger (Sky),  VE1SKY


        --
        Daniel S. Brouillard VE2DSB
        FN35hs
      • Lance Collister, W7GJ
        Yes, you can find the comparison in the User Manual - ISCAT is much more sensitive than FSK441. FSK441 was developed to make the most of strong, short bursts
        Message 3 of 4 , Mar 26, 2014
          Yes, you can find the comparison in the User Manual - ISCAT is much more sensitive
          than FSK441. FSK441 was developed to make the most of strong, short bursts on meteor
          pings. ISCAT and JT65A are for much weaker signals of longer duration... ISCAT is
          listed as 16dB more sensitive than FSK441 and JT65A (NOT including the Deep Search)
          is 24 dB better. Those are HUGE increases in sensitivity!!! Just imagine trying to
          increase your antenna gain by 24 dB!!!

          I strongly suggest that you try to use JT65B with AGRESSIVE DEEP SEARCH! GL and VY
          73, Lance


          On 3/26/2014 11:37 PM, Daniel Brouillard wrote:
          >
          >
          > Hi y'a Roger
          >
          > ISCAT-B can be used on 2m also. Many time in light and very light tropo mixed with
          > ionoscatter work pretty well on 2m and 6m.
          >
          > FSK441 was tested with Jim WA3LBI many time and we find ISCAT-B was working each
          > time on 2m and never heard Jim with FSK . ROger, Jim and I have about 375mi aways
          > each other. This week end if you have time let try ISCAT-B for our 400mi distance on 2m
          >
          > For your project, I'm sure you can do something good with ISCAT-B. By the way,
          > ISCAT are a bit more sensitive than FSK.
          >
          > Dany in FN35 the great black hole of the world...HI!
          >
          > On 2014-03-26 18:54, ve1sky@... wrote:
          >> Â
          >>
          >> A group of amateurs will be attempting a 2m trans-Atlantic QSO from Pouch Cove,
          >> NF to EU from July 4-12, 2014. Details are available on our website:
          >> www.brendanquest.org .
          >>
          >>
          >> The group will be attempting to complete the QSO in traditional CW or SSB to win
          >> the Brendan Trophy. A Brendan Shield may be awarded for digital modes or HSCW.Â
          >>
          >>
          >> I have a question for the WSJTGROUP that is being hotly debated in a private group
          >> and has not been resolved. Given the need for double hop Es, chordal Es or a
          >> mixed mode of propagation such as Es and tropo, Es and meteors, or tropo and
          >> meteors; what would the best WSJT operating mode be?Â
          >>
          >>
          >> Two possibilities are currently being debated:
          >>
          >> 1) use JT65B as a CQ beacon on even minutes. If a station copies us and the
          >> signal is audible, CW or SSB would be sent back (tailended) after a JT65B QSO or
          >> try. If the signal is not audible, only the JT65B QSO would be attempted.
          >>
          >>
          >> 2) use FSK441 constantly. An EU ham points out that FSK441 DX greater than 3000km
          >> in EU has been achieved many times using meteors and Es or tropo-ducting and
          >> meteors. He claims that JT65 on 2m has not achieved the DX required and should
          >> not be used. Currently EU trans-Atlantic beacons are sending JT65B and CW in
          >> hopes of being heard and copied.
          >>
          >>
          >> A look at the Make More Miles on VHF website documents many of the EU DX events on
          >> 2m. SSB, CW and FSK441 have been used. The North Atlantic crossing may be a
          >> different context than 2m EU DX.
          >>
          >>
          >> A difference between Option1 and 2 is that as a weak signal mode JT65 can show
          >> sub-audible traces and meteors. Non-continuous weak traces with or without
          >> meteors may indicate that another mode is necessary to get decodes. FSK441 is not
          >> a weak signal mode and it will not 'see' those traces.   "Seeing signals' and
          >> 'decoding signals' are two very different and desirable abilities and matching
          >> modes to propagation is essential to success.Â
          >>
          >>
          >> The Brendan Team has run this topic around for several weeks. If you are familiar
          >> with the nuances of the topic and care to discuss it here, the team and several
          >> advisors we have contacted will all be very interested in your insights as to the
          >> optimal way to do what hasn't yet been done - send and receive a 2m signal across
          >> the Atlantic. All the information that you should need is found on the website:
          >> www.brendanquest.org  Please look at the website, debate and discuss among
          >> yourselves and team members will look for best approaches to the Brendan Quest.
          >> Thank you! Your input will be part of all of our success.
          >>
          >> 73,
          >> Roger (Sky), VE1SKY
          >>
          >
          > --
          > Daniel S. Brouillard VE2DSB
          > FN35hs
          >
          >
          >


          --
          Lance Collister, W7GJ
          (ex WA3GPL, WA1JXN, WA1JXN/C6A, ZF2OC/ZF8, E51SIX, 3D2LR, 5W0GJ, E6M, TX5K)
          P.O. Box 73
          Frenchtown, MT 59834-0073
          USA
          TEL: (406) 626-5728
          QTH: DN27ub
          URL: http://www.bigskyspaces.com/w7gj
          Windows Messenger: W7GJ@...
          Skype: lanceW7GJ
          2m DXCC #11/6m DXCC #815

          Interested in 6m EME? Ask me about subscribing to the Magic Band EME
          email group, or just fill in the request box at the bottom of my web
          page (above)!
        • Alexandre Moleiro
          I must agree that ISCAT is a better option than FSK441. If it is desired just to see signals have you considered WSPR as a beacon ? 73 s de Alex On Thursday,
          Message 4 of 4 , Mar 30, 2014
            I must agree that ISCAT is a better option than FSK441.

            If it is desired just to "see signals" have you considered WSPR as a beacon ?

            73's de Alex

            On Thursday, March 27, 2014 3:36 AM, "ve1sky@..." <ve1sky@...> wrote:
             
            A group of amateurs will be attempting a 2m  trans-Atlantic QSO from Pouch Cove, NF to EU from July 4-12, 2014.  Details are available on our website: www.brendanquest.org .

            The group will be attempting to complete the QSO in traditional CW or SSB to win the Brendan Trophy.  A Brendan Shield may be awarded for digital modes or HSCW. 

            I have a question for the WSJTGROUP that is being hotly debated in a private group and has not been resolved.  Given the need for double hop Es, chordal Es or a mixed mode of propagation such as Es and tropo, Es and meteors, or tropo and meteors; what would the best WSJT operating mode be? 

            Two possibilities are currently being debated:
            1) use JT65B as a CQ beacon on even minutes.  If a station copies us and the signal is audible, CW or SSB would be sent back (tailended) after a JT65B QSO or try.  If the signal is not audible, only the JT65B QSO would be attempted.

            2) use FSK441 constantly.  An EU ham points out that FSK441 DX greater than 3000km in EU has been achieved many times using meteors and Es or tropo-ducting and meteors.  He claims that JT65 on 2m has not achieved the DX required and should not be used.  Currently EU trans-Atlantic beacons are sending JT65B and CW in hopes of being heard and copied.

            A look at the Make More Miles on VHF website documents many of the EU DX events on 2m.  SSB, CW and FSK441 have been used.  The North Atlantic crossing may be a different context than 2m EU DX.

            A difference between Option1 and 2 is that as a weak signal mode JT65 can show sub-audible traces and meteors.  Non-continuous weak traces with or without meteors may indicate that another mode is necessary to get decodes.  FSK441 is not a weak signal mode and it will not 'see' those traces.    "Seeing signals' and 'decoding signals'  are two very different and desirable abilities and matching modes to propagation is essential to success. 

            The Brendan Team has run this topic around for several weeks.  If you are familiar with the nuances of the topic and care to discuss it here, the team and several advisors we have contacted will all be very interested in your insights as to the optimal way to do what hasn't yet been done - send and receive a 2m signal across the Atlantic.  All the information that you should need is found on the website: www.brendanquest.org   Please look at the website, debate and discuss among yourselves and team members will look for best approaches to the Brendan Quest. Thank you!  Your input will be part of all of our success.
            73,
            Roger (Sky),  VE1SKY


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