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To the party that just told me "less pwr" on 15M

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  • Dave 'Doc' Corio
    Someone just sent the phrase LESS PWR on the frequency I had just called CQ on. That signal was as wide as a PSK31 signal. Please consider that we may have
    Message 1 of 10 , Sep 22, 2013
      Someone just sent the phrase "LESS PWR" on the frequency I had just
      called CQ on.

      That signal was as wide as a PSK31 signal. Please consider that we
      may have an excellent path between our stations before you criticize
      what you perceive as excessive power. Your signal was +12 dB - perhaps
      your power was excessive, or, more likely, we simply had a great path!

      73
      Doc
      KB3MOW
    • Ed
      I have also been tempted recently to do the same thing..send a message to someone who seemed to be blanking out my entire graphical display with what appeared
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 22, 2013

         

        I have also been tempted recently to do the same thing….send a message to someone who seemed to be blanking out my entire graphical display with what appeared to be a too strong signal…… but fortunately I held off.  Yes,  I guess propagation can, and does play a greater part in these strong signals I occasionally see.

         

        Ed   K7AAT

         

         

        From: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave 'Doc' Corio
        Subject: [wsjtgroup] To the party that just told me "less pwr" on 15M

         

         

        Someone just sent the phrase "LESS PWR" on the frequency I had just
        called CQ on.

        That signal was as wide as a PSK31 signal. Please consider that we
        may have an excellent path between our stations before you criticize
        what you perceive as excessive power. Your signal was +12 dB - perhaps
        your power was excessive, or, more likely, we simply had a great path!

        73
        Doc
        KB3MOW

      • Bob
        Easiest thing to do is adjust one s own RF gain control. If the offending signal looks normal, blame your good reception, NOT the other guy. After all a
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 22, 2013
          Easiest thing to do is adjust one's own RF gain control.  If the "offending" signal looks normal, blame your good reception, NOT the other guy.  After all a +12 to someone one hop away might be a -20 to someone else a bit further down the pipe.

          I had fun with JT9 on 30 meters a couple of nights ago running 5 watts out and was hitting VK3AMA with a +3 report 10,000+ miles away.  I finished the QSO with the power at 0.5 watts.

          73, Bob, WB4SON

        • Ed
          The problem I have, and one that has no solution I believe, is that these strong +12 signals blank my graphical display, and I assume also block much weaker
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 22, 2013

             

            The problem I have,  and one that has no solution I believe,  is that these strong +12 signals blank my graphical display,  and I assume also block much weaker signals from being decoded.  Turning down the RF gain is not going to help copying the weak stations I am trying to decode.    I cannot operate if such a station is booming in.   Fortunately it seems to be a fairly rare occurrence so far.

             

            Ed   K7AAT

             

             

            From: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob
            Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 12:40 PM
            To: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [wsjtgroup] To the party that just told me "less pwr" on 15M

             

             

            Easiest thing to do is adjust one's own RF gain control.  If the "offending" signal looks normal, blame your good reception, NOT the other guy.  After all a +12 to someone one hop away might be a -20 to someone else a bit further down the pipe.

             

            I had fun with JT9 on 30 meters a couple of nights ago running 5 watts out and was hitting VK3AMA with a +3 report 10,000+ miles away.  I finished the QSO with the power at 0.5 watts.

             

            73, Bob, WB4SON

             

          • David Cole
            Hi, Kill your AGC, then adjust the RF Gain. If you have filters, use them... I can work a station on JT9, with a +5 100 HZ away. With the other station
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 22, 2013
              Hi,

              Kill your AGC, then adjust the RF Gain. If you have filters, use
              them... I can work a station on JT9, with a +5 100 HZ away. With the
              other station being +15

              I use the notch filter, and the bandpass filter adjustments.
              --
              Thanks and 73's,
              Dave (NK7Z),
              Moderator Yahoo's MixW group, Yahoo's Dopplergram group, and Yahoo
              MM-SSTV group.
              For equipment reviews see: http://www.nk7z.net




              On Sun, 2013-09-22 at 15:10 -0700, Ed wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > The problem I have, and one that has no solution I believe, is that
              > these strong +12 signals blank my graphical display, and I assume
              > also block much weaker signals from being decoded. Turning down the
              > RF gain is not going to help copying the weak stations I am trying to
              > decode. I cannot operate if such a station is booming in.
              > Fortunately it seems to be a fairly rare occurrence so far.
              >
              >
              >
              > Ed K7AAT
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > From: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com] On
              > Behalf Of Bob
              > Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 12:40 PM
              > To: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [wsjtgroup] To the party that just told me "less pwr" on
              > 15M
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Easiest thing to do is adjust one's own RF gain control. If the
              > "offending" signal looks normal, blame your good reception, NOT the
              > other guy. After all a +12 to someone one hop away might be a -20 to
              > someone else a bit further down the pipe.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > I had fun with JT9 on 30 meters a couple of nights ago running 5 watts
              > out and was hitting VK3AMA with a +3 report 10,000+ miles away. I
              > finished the QSO with the power at 0.5 watts.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > 73, Bob, WB4SON
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Ian GM4KLN
              Hi Ed I regularly get the strong station syndrome you refer to, as I am a perfect single-skip distance into southern EU, with huge sigs frequently upwards of
              Message 6 of 10 , Sep 22, 2013

                Hi Ed

                I regularly get the strong station syndrome you refer to, as I am a perfect single-skip distance into southern EU, with huge sigs frequently upwards of +15.

                 

                All I need to do is turn AGC off: I can still copy weak sigs (- 20 to -25 typically) at the same time.  I can always turn pre-amps off, or even switch in the attenuator: I don’t ever recall not being able to resolve a weak sig with a little experimentation.

                 

                Rig is an early IC-756.

                 

                73, Ian GM4KLN

                 

                 

                From: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ed
                Sent: 22 September 2013 23:10
                To: 'Bob'; wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [wsjtgroup] To the party that just told me "less pwr" on 15M

                 

                 

                 

                The problem I have,  and one that has no solution I believe,  is that these strong +12 signals blank my graphical display,  and I assume also block much weaker signals from being decoded.  Turning down the RF gain is not going to help copying the weak stations I am trying to decode.    I cannot operate if such a station is booming in.   Fortunately it seems to be a fairly rare occurrence so far.

                 

                Ed   K7AAT

                 

                 

                From: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob
                Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 12:40 PM
                To: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [wsjtgroup] To the party that just told me "less pwr" on 15M

                 

                 

                Easiest thing to do is adjust one's own RF gain control.  If the "offending" signal looks normal, blame your good reception, NOT the other guy.  After all a +12 to someone one hop away might be a -20 to someone else a bit further down the pipe.

                 

                I had fun with JT9 on 30 meters a couple of nights ago running 5 watts out and was hitting VK3AMA with a +3 report 10,000+ miles away.  I finished the QSO with the power at 0.5 watts.

                 

                73, Bob, WB4SON

                 

              • Bob
                Quoting: The problem I have, and one that has no solution I believe, is that these strong +12 signals blank my graphical display, and I assume also block
                Message 7 of 10 , Sep 22, 2013
                  Quoting:  "The problem I have,  and one that has no solution I believe,  is that these strong +12 signals blank my graphical display,  and I assume also block much weaker signals from being decoded.  Turning down the RF gain is not going to help copying the weak stations I am trying to decode.    I cannot operate if such a station is booming in.   Fortunately it seems to be a fairly rare occurrence so far."


                  First, to put this in perspective, let me give you a slightly different situation.  I'm operating during a contest and desperately want to work that rare DX station that is calling CQ in the 100 Hz gap between two KW stations with 7 element beams on 150 foot towers.  Now I might not be able to copy that rare DX station given the strong adjacent signals.  I might "wish" that the two strong stations would just go away, but I certainly have NO right to ask either of them to QSY or reduce power, or stop what they are doing for my sake.

                  Second, what you see on the display is just that -- what is on the display.  It is a visual aid.  It has nothing to do with how the signals are decoded by WSJT -- fat signals on the display mean nothing other than the signal is so strong it still has energy across several bins.

                  HOWEVER, and this is often the problem, if you do have one or two very strong signals, AND you have your AGC turned on, then you might have your RF gain automatically reduced to the point that you can't decode the desired signal.  There are two solutions:

                  First: Turn your AGC off and reduce your RF gain to the point where your receiver no longer overloads from the strongest signals.  That has helped me many times.

                  Second:  Use your filters.  Narrow the passband so that the strong signals are no longer in the passband.  Or use your notch filter to take them out.  Use of the filters almost always works.


                  I'm sympathetic -- It would be a great world if all signals were -12, but they aren't.  Different paths make some weaker and some stronger.  Sometimes folks do run excessive power.  Others start sending RTTY in the JT65/JT9 area.  But it really is our job, as operators on "the other side" to do our best with the tools we have to work the ones we want.


                  73
                • Carol & Fred Darrah
                  There should never be a time when adjacent signals blank the graphical display while operating digital modes. If this is happening, I would think there are
                  Message 8 of 10 , Sep 22, 2013
                    There should never be a time when adjacent signals blank the graphical display while operating digital modes. If this is happening, I would think there are somethings wrong in your settings. I never run AGC. RF gain needs to be set to the lowest point you can set it, as it increases the noise levels. A check of your sound card settings is in order and if you use the Mic input be sure the Mic boost is off. The only time a signal should mess with the display is if it is very close to you in distance. Copying very weak stations is also more about the loss in your coax or switches, or even your tuner. I have used several radios and different computers and sound cards, in the past 20 years I have been on digital modes and never had the problem described.
                    Fred  N9GUE



                    From: Bob <wb4son@...>
                    To: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 9:14 PM
                    Subject: Re: [wsjtgroup] To the party that just told me "less pwr" on 15M

                     
                    Quoting:  "The problem I have,  and one that has no solution I believe,  is that these strong +12 signals blank my graphical display,  and I assume also block much weaker signals from being decoded.  Turning down the RF gain is not going to help copying the weak stations I am trying to decode.    I cannot operate if such a station is booming in.   Fortunately it seems to be a fairly rare occurrence so far."


                    First, to put this in perspective, let me give you a slightly different situation.  I'm operating during a contest and desperately want to work that rare DX station that is calling CQ in the 100 Hz gap between two KW stations with 7 element beams on 150 foot towers.  Now I might not be able to copy that rare DX station given the strong adjacent signals.  I might "wish" that the two strong stations would just go away, but I certainly have NO right to ask either of them to QSY or reduce power, or stop what they are doing for my sake.

                    Second, what you see on the display is just that -- what is on the display.  It is a visual aid.  It has nothing to do with how the signals are decoded by WSJT -- fat signals on the display mean nothing other than the signal is so strong it still has energy across several bins.

                    HOWEVER, and this is often the problem, if you do have one or two very strong signals, AND you have your AGC turned on, then you might have your RF gain automatically reduced to the point that you can't decode the desired signal.  There are two solutions:

                    First: Turn your AGC off and reduce your RF gain to the point where your receiver no longer overloads from the strongest signals.  That has helped me many times.

                    Second:  Use your filters.  Narrow the passband so that the strong signals are no longer in the passband.  Or use your notch filter to take them out.  Use of the filters almost always works.


                    I'm sympathetic -- It would be a great world if all signals were -12, but they aren't.  Different paths make some weaker and some stronger.  Sometimes folks do run excessive power.  Others start sending RTTY in the JT65/JT9 area.  But it really is our job, as operators on "the other side" to do our best with the tools we have to work the ones we want.


                    73


                  • Ed
                    For the record on this discussion, I too do NOT run with AGC turned on. I use a SignaLink USB interface and set it to show a signal level on WSJTX of
                    Message 9 of 10 , Sep 22, 2013

                       

                      For the record on this discussion,  I too do NOT run with AGC turned on.  I  use a SignaLink USB interface and set it to show a signal level on WSJTX of between 20 and 30dB.   I believe that is the recommended range of Joe, the author.

                       

                      Additional,  I will grant that I have not played with my radios fine filter system to see if that helps.   Been busy this weekend.  Will experiment later.

                       

                      Ed   K7AAT

                       

                       

                      From: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carol & Fred Darrah
                      Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 7:35 PM
                      To: Bob; wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [wsjtgroup] To the party that just told me "less pwr" on 15M

                       

                       

                      There should never be a time when adjacent signals blank the graphical display while operating digital modes. If this is happening, I would think there are somethings wrong in your settings. I never run AGC. RF gain needs to be set to the lowest point you can set it, as it increases the noise levels. A check of your sound card settings is in order and if you use the Mic input be sure the Mic boost is off. The only time a signal should mess with the display is if it is very close to you in distance. Copying very weak stations is also more about the loss in your coax or switches, or even your tuner. I have used several radios and different computers and sound cards, in the past 20 years I have been on digital modes and never had the problem described.
                      Fred  N9GUE

                       

                       


                      From: Bob <wb4son@...>
                      To: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 9:14 PM
                      Subject: Re: [wsjtgroup] To the party that just told me "less pwr" on 15M

                       

                       

                      Quoting:  "The problem I have,  and one that has no solution I believe,  is that these strong +12 signals blank my graphical display,  and I assume also block much weaker signals from being decoded.  Turning down the RF gain is not going to help copying the weak stations I am trying to decode.    I cannot operate if such a station is booming in.   Fortunately it seems to be a fairly rare occurrence so far."

                       

                       

                      First, to put this in perspective, let me give you a slightly different situation.  I'm operating during a contest and desperately want to work that rare DX station that is calling CQ in the 100 Hz gap between two KW stations with 7 element beams on 150 foot towers.  Now I might not be able to copy that rare DX station given the strong adjacent signals.  I might "wish" that the two strong stations would just go away, but I certainly have NO right to ask either of them to QSY or reduce power, or stop what they are doing for my sake.

                       

                      Second, what you see on the display is just that -- what is on the display.  It is a visual aid.  It has nothing to do with how the signals are decoded by WSJT -- fat signals on the display mean nothing other than the signal is so strong it still has energy across several bins.

                       

                      HOWEVER, and this is often the problem, if you do have one or two very strong signals, AND you have your AGC turned on, then you might have your RF gain automatically reduced to the point that you can't decode the desired signal.  There are two solutions:

                       

                      First: Turn your AGC off and reduce your RF gain to the point where your receiver no longer overloads from the strongest signals.  That has helped me many times.

                       

                      Second:  Use your filters.  Narrow the passband so that the strong signals are no longer in the passband.  Or use your notch filter to take them out.  Use of the filters almost always works.

                       

                       

                      I'm sympathetic -- It would be a great world if all signals were -12, but they aren't.  Different paths make some weaker and some stronger.  Sometimes folks do run excessive power.  Others start sending RTTY in the JT65/JT9 area.  But it really is our job, as operators on "the other side" to do our best with the tools we have to work the ones we want.

                       

                      73

                       

                    • k4djg
                      As I use FlexRadio (F1.5K and F3K), I haven t found a way to turn OFF AGC. If I have just missed something, will someone please set me straight, as I WANT to
                      Message 10 of 10 , Sep 24, 2013

                         As I use FlexRadio (F1.5K and F3K), I haven't found a way to turn OFF AGC.  If I have just missed something, will someone please set me straight, as I WANT to turn it off!


                        Bob, K4DJG



                        ---In wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com, <k7aat.ed@...> wrote:

                         

                        For the record on this discussion,  I too do NOT run with AGC turned on.  I  use a SignaLink USB interface and set it to show a signal level on WSJTX of between 20 and 30dB.   I believe that is the recommended range of Joe, the author.

                         

                        Additional,  I will grant that I have not played with my radios fine filter system to see if that helps.   Been busy this weekend.  Will experiment later.

                         

                        Ed   K7AAT

                         

                         

                        From: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carol & Fred Darrah
                        Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 7:35 PM
                        To: Bob; wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [wsjtgroup] To the party that just told me "less pwr" on 15M

                         

                         

                        There should never be a time when adjacent signals blank the graphical display while operating digital modes. If this is happening, I would think there are somethings wrong in your settings. I never run AGC. RF gain needs to be set to the lowest point you can set it, as it increases the noise levels. A check of your sound card settings is in order and if you use the Mic input be sure the Mic boost is off. The only time a signal should mess with the display is if it is very close to you in distance. Copying very weak stations is also more about the loss in your coax or switches, or even your tuner. I have used several radios and different computers and sound cards, in the past 20 years I have been on digital modes and never had the problem described.
                        Fred  N9GUE

                         

                         


                        From: Bob <wb4son@...>
                        To: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2013 9:14 PM
                        Subject: Re: [wsjtgroup] To the party that just told me "less pwr" on 15M

                         

                         

                        Quoting:  "The problem I have,  and one that has no solution I believe,  is that these strong +12 signals blank my graphical display,  and I assume also block much weaker signals from being decoded.  Turning down the RF gain is not going to help copying the weak stations I am trying to decode.    I cannot operate if such a station is booming in.   Fortunately it seems to be a fairly rare occurrence so far."

                         

                         

                        First, to put this in perspective, let me give you a slightly different situation.  I'm operating during a contest and desperately want to work that rare DX station that is calling CQ in the 100 Hz gap between two KW stations with 7 element beams on 150 foot towers.  Now I might not be able to copy that rare DX station given the strong adjacent signals.  I might "wish" that the two strong stations would just go away, but I certainly have NO right to ask either of them to QSY or reduce power, or stop what they are doing for my sake.

                         

                        Second, what you see on the display is just that -- what is on the display.  It is a visual aid.  It has nothing to do with how the signals are decoded by WSJT -- fat signals on the display mean nothing other than the signal is so strong it still has energy across several bins.

                         

                        HOWEVER, and this is often the problem, if you do have one or two very strong signals, AND you have your AGC turned on, then you might have your RF gain automatically reduced to the point that you can't decode the desired signal.  There are two solutions:

                         

                        First: Turn your AGC off and reduce your RF gain to the point where your receiver no longer overloads from the strongest signals.  That has helped me many times.

                         

                        Second:  Use your filters.  Narrow the passband so that the strong signals are no longer in the passband.  Or use your notch filter to take them out.  Use of the filters almost always works.

                         

                         

                        I'm sympathetic -- It would be a great world if all signals were -12, but they aren't.  Different paths make some weaker and some stronger.  Sometimes folks do run excessive power.  Others start sending RTTY in the JT65/JT9 area.  But it really is our job, as operators on "the other side" to do our best with the tools we have to work the ones we want.

                         

                        73

                         

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