Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [wsjtgroup] 10dB RX Level Shift after TX

Expand Messages
  • chas cartmel
    Koe -(K0OG) - loads of Joes around hihi Tried to recreate the problem here on my Windoze 8 Pro 64 bit machine, but could not do so. This latest version seems
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 18, 2013
    • 0 Attachment

      Koe –(K0OG) – loads of Joes around hihi

       

      Tried to recreate the problem here on my Windoze 8 Pro 64 bit machine, but could not do so.  This latest version seems stable here but only been running for 30 minutes or so.

      73

      Charlie

      www.G4EST.me.uk

       

      From: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of k0og
      Sent: 18 August 2013 05:04
      To: wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [wsjtgroup] 10dB RX Level Shift after TX

       

       

      Greetings,

      I welcome the changes to WSJT-X v1.2 r3563, but find a bug was introduced.

      When I opened it, after just running v1.1 r 3520, I found that the TX and RX levels had shifted, which was a surprise to me. I re-adjusted the levels with the sliders and it seemed to work well. Upon closing, then successive openings, I found that the TX level is consistent from opening to opening, but I find that the RX level is 10dB lower than the previous opening. If I transmit (either to carry on a QSO or just transmit a tune signal even with the radio turned off to eliminate RF problems), the actual RX level bumps up by exactly 10dB, but the RX level slide in WSJT-X does not move, nor do the Windows sound mixer sliders move. I have tried all the different settings in the configuration for transmitting into left, right, mono, or both audio channels, and none of the settings affect this 10dB jump.

      To demonstrate this problem, do the following:

      Open WSJT-X, then adjust the RX slider in WSJT-X for some level on the received noise (e.g., 40dB). Now, open the Windows mixer panel, recording panel, and just "touch" the input (in my case I use the "Line In" fader), and you will observe the RX level to instantly drop by 10dB. Go to WSJT-X and transmit a tune tone for a little bit (just one second or so is enough), and as soon as you go back to RX mode you will see the level jump back up 10dB to the original level.

      So, it seems that some audio input level control in WSJT-X is unstable, and is altered by a TX operation.

      Another observation is this: If you follow the above test procedure, observing the precipitous 10dB drop in input audio level, and simple close WSJT-X and then re-open it, it does the same thing as if you TX briefly, and the audio level jumps back up 10dB.

      73,
      -Joe-

    • g4wjs
      ... Hi Joe, ... I am not able to reproduce this but I only have a Windows 8 system and the control of audio levels in Windows changed considerably when Vista
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 18, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com, "k0og" <counsil@...> wrote:
        >
        > Greetings,
        Hi Joe,
        >
        > I welcome the changes to WSJT-X v1.2 r3563, but find a bug was introduced.
        >
        > When I opened it, after just running v1.1 r 3520, I found that the TX and RX levels had shifted, which was a surprise to me. I re-adjusted the levels with the sliders and it seemed to work well. Upon closing, then successive openings, I found that the TX level is consistent from opening to opening, but I find that the RX level is 10dB lower than the previous opening. If I transmit (either to carry on a QSO or just transmit a tune signal even with the radio turned off to eliminate RF problems), the actual RX level bumps up by exactly 10dB, but the RX level slide in WSJT-X does not move, nor do the Windows sound mixer sliders move. I have tried all the different settings in the configuration for transmitting into left, right, mono, or both audio channels, and none of the settings affect this 10dB jump.
        >
        > To demonstrate this problem, do the following:
        >
        > Open WSJT-X, then adjust the RX slider in WSJT-X for some level on the received noise (e.g., 40dB). Now, open the Windows mixer panel, recording panel, and just "touch" the input (in my case I use the "Line In" fader), and you will observe the RX level to instantly drop by 10dB. Go to WSJT-X and transmit a tune tone for a little bit (just one second or so is enough), and as soon as you go back to RX mode you will see the level jump back up 10dB to the original level.
        >
        > So, it seems that some audio input level control in WSJT-X is unstable, and is altered by a TX operation.
        >
        > Another observation is this: If you follow the above test procedure, observing the precipitous 10dB drop in input audio level, and simple close WSJT-X and then re-open it, it does the same thing as if you TX briefly, and the audio level jumps back up 10dB.
        I am not able to reproduce this but I only have a Windows 8 system and the control of audio levels in Windows changed considerably when Vista was introduced.

        It would be helpful if another XP user with different audio hardware, from your Creative PCI card, could verify this issue.

        Here's a little background. We have switched to new audio software, it is now done by Qt which is the framework that gives us a cross platform GUI. The switch was made to try and unify and reduce the number of external dependencies, it also fits better into the rest of the software. This has a few externally visible consequences like different names for the audio devices and slightly different behavior; for example most users are seeing different audio level settings with the new versions. It is quite possible that what you are seeing is another consequence, in this case not benign.

        Both the old and the new audio software we use are just a layer in the audio stack, in both cases the underlying audio service on Windows is provided by the Microsoft Wave Audio Services.

        The receive audio gain is implemented entirely within WSJT-X and doesn't touch any system audio levels.

        The tx audio attenuator uses a feature of the Qt audio framework. This may use the system audio level controls although I believe it only does that on UNIX, on Windows AFAIK it is implemented in the Qt framework software.

        So I think that perhaps on Windows XP there is some link between opening an output audio stream on a device and the input levels on that same device. This shouldn't happen and I'm not sure we have any control over it either Joe.
        >
        > 73,
        > -Joe-
        >
        73
        Bill
        G4WJS.
      • Joseph A. Counsil
        Bill, Thanks for the comments & explanation. As I mentioned, I m running a Creative AudioPCI (WDM), but more specifically it uses the ES1371/ES1373 chip set.
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 18, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          Bill,

          Thanks for the comments & explanation.  As I mentioned, I'm running a Creative AudioPCI (WDM), but more specifically it uses the ES1371/ES1373 chip set.  As you mention, it appears that WSJT-X is not changing any system levels because no sliders in the Windows mixer panel change, so I presume that the change is internal to WSJT-X.  It's an irritant that I can get by with, but should be fixed if possible as it may be indicitave of some bug in the code that may bite someone else later.

          Again, thanks for your explanation & efforts!

          73,
          -Joe-

          Bill Somerville wrote:
          On 18/08/2013 05:04, k0og wrote:
           

          Greetings,

          Hi Joe,


          I welcome the changes to WSJT-X v1.2 r3563, but find a bug was introduced.

          When I opened it, after just running v1.1 r 3520, I found that the TX and RX levels had shifted, which was a surprise to me. I re-adjusted the levels with the sliders and it seemed to work well. Upon closing, then successive openings, I found that the TX level is consistent from opening to opening, but I find that the RX level is 10dB lower than the previous opening. If I transmit (either to carry on a QSO or just transmit a tune signal even with the radio turned off to eliminate RF problems), the actual RX level bumps up by exactly 10dB, but the RX level slide in WSJT-X does not move, nor do the Windows sound mixer sliders move. I have tried all the different settings in the configuration for transmitting into left, right, mono, or both audio channels, and none of the settings affect this 10dB jump.

          To demonstrate this problem, do the following:

          Open WSJT-X, then adjust the RX slider in WSJT-X for some level on the received noise (e.g., 40dB). Now, open the Windows mixer panel, recording panel, and just "touch" the input (in my case I use the "Line In" fader), and you will observe the RX level to instantly drop by 10dB. Go to WSJT-X and transmit a tune tone for a little bit (just one second or so is enough), and as soon as you go back to RX mode you will see the level jump back up 10dB to the original level.

          So, it seems that some audio input level control in WSJT-X is unstable, and is altered by a TX operation.

          Another observation is this: If you follow the above test procedure, observing the precipitous 10dB drop in input audio level, and simple close WSJT-X and then re-open it, it does the same thing as if you TX briefly, and the audio level jumps back up 10dB.

          I am not able to reproduce this but I only have a Windows 8 system and the control of audio levels in Windows changed considerably when Vista was introduced.

          It would be helpful if another XP user with different audio hardware could verify this issue. What sound chip do you have Joe?

          Here's a little background. We have switched to new audio software, it is now done by Qt which is the framework that gives us a cross platform GUI. The switch was made to try and unify and reduce the number of external dependencies, it also fits better into the rest of the software. This has a few externally visible consequences like different names for the audio devices and slightly different behaviour; for example most users are seeing different audio level settings with the new versions. It is quite possible that what you are seeing is another consequence, in this case not benign.

          Both the old and the new audio software we use are just a layer in the audio stack, in both cases the underlying audio service on Windows is provided by the Microsoft Wave Audio Services.

          The receive audio gain is implemented entirely within WSJT-X and doesn't touch any system audio levels.

          The tx audio attenuator uses a feature of the Qt audio framework. This may use the system audio level controls although I believe it only does that on UNIX, on Windows AFAIK it is implemented in the Qt framework software.

          So I think that perhaps on Windows XP there is some link between opening an output audio stream on a device and the input levels on that same device. This shouldn't happen and I'm not sure we have any control over it either Joe.


          73,
          -Joe-

          73
          Bill
          G4WJS.

          -- 
          +---------------------------------------------------------------+
          | Joseph A. Counsil  counsil@...  Phone:(573) 341-5186 |
          | 1310 Woodlawn Drive, Rolla, MO 65401  Amateur Radio: - KØOG - |
          +---------------------------------------------------------------+
          
        • k0og
          Here is another clue to follow... I found that if I exit WSJT-X and do not make any changes to the Windows level faders, then open WSJT-X again, the RX audio
          Message 4 of 8 , Aug 18, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            Here is another clue to follow...

            I found that if I exit WSJT-X and do not make any changes to the Windows level faders, then open WSJT-X again, the RX audio level comes up as normal, and I observe no 10dB jump after a TX. However, if I exit WSJT-X, make a change to the Windows LINE IN level fader, then get back into WSJT-X, the 10dB shift after TX appears. Adjustment of no fader other than LINE IN has this effect. So, it appears that the problem has some relation to the interaction between WSJT-X and Windows XP LINE IN fader.

            -Joe-
          • k0og
            I came up with a temporary work-around using a Windows batch file to close then re-open WSJT-X without making any adjustments to Windows faders between the two
            Message 5 of 8 , Aug 18, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              I came up with a temporary work-around using a Windows batch file to close then re-open WSJT-X without making any adjustments to Windows faders between the two instances.

              =====
              @echo off

              start C:\progra~1\QuickMix\QuickMix.exe c:\docume~1\jcounsil\mydocu~1\_Quickmix\wsjtx.qmx
              start c:\wsjtx11\wsjtx.exe

              ping -n 2 127.0.0.1 > nul
              taskkill /F /IM wsjtx.exe
              taskkill /F /IM jt9.exe

              start c:\wsjtx11\wsjtx.exe

              exit
              =====

              This works nicely, but of course is a kludge of a work-around and does not fix the real problem.

              73,
              -Joe-

              --- In wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com, "k0og" <counsil@...> wrote:
              >
              > Here is another clue to follow...
              >
              > I found that if I exit WSJT-X and do not make any changes to the Windows level faders, then open WSJT-X again, the RX audio level comes up as normal, and I observe no 10dB jump after a TX. However, if I exit WSJT-X, make a change to the Windows LINE IN level fader, then get back into WSJT-X, the 10dB shift after TX appears. Adjustment of no fader other than LINE IN has this effect. So, it appears that the problem has some relation to the interaction between WSJT-X and Windows XP LINE IN fader.
              >
              > -Joe-
              >
            • Joe Subich, W4TV
              WindowsXP allows applications to set the *hardware* gain on the sound card. Vista/Windows 7/Windows 8 make that gain virtual - a separate level for each
              Message 6 of 8 , Aug 18, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                WindowsXP allows applications to set the *hardware* gain on the sound
                card. Vista/Windows 7/Windows 8 make that gain "virtual" - a separate
                level for each application. You are seeing a conflict between
                applications in XP - time to upgrade since support for XP goes away in
                less than a year anyway and Microsoft is *three generations* past XP.

                73,

                ... Joe, W4TV


                On 8/18/2013 11:10 AM, k0og wrote:
                > I came up with a temporary work-around using a Windows batch file to close then re-open WSJT-X without making any adjustments to Windows faders between the two instances.
                >
                > =====
                > @echo off
                >
                > start C:\progra~1\QuickMix\QuickMix.exe c:\docume~1\jcounsil\mydocu~1\_Quickmix\wsjtx.qmx
                > start c:\wsjtx11\wsjtx.exe
                >
                > ping -n 2 127.0.0.1 > nul
                > taskkill /F /IM wsjtx.exe
                > taskkill /F /IM jt9.exe
                >
                > start c:\wsjtx11\wsjtx.exe
                >
                > exit
                > =====
                >
                > This works nicely, but of course is a kludge of a work-around and does not fix the real problem.
                >
                > 73,
                > -Joe-
                >
                > --- In wsjtgroup@yahoogroups.com, "k0og" <counsil@...> wrote:
                >>
                >> Here is another clue to follow...
                >>
                >> I found that if I exit WSJT-X and do not make any changes to the Windows level faders, then open WSJT-X again, the RX audio level comes up as normal, and I observe no 10dB jump after a TX. However, if I exit WSJT-X, make a change to the Windows LINE IN level fader, then get back into WSJT-X, the 10dB shift after TX appears. Adjustment of no fader other than LINE IN has this effect. So, it appears that the problem has some relation to the interaction between WSJT-X and Windows XP LINE IN fader.
                >>
                >> -Joe-
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
                > wsjtgroup-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > WSJTGroup Homepage --> http://www.wsjtgroup.org/
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.