Re: WS Cutoffs and Overall Time Limit
- I fell reasonably sure that the WS Board probably markets this race
to runners and potential sponsors based on prestige more than the
percentage of finishers. The fact of the matter is that a lower
percentage of finishers probably lends itself to greater level of
prestige. This is why runners like Carl (60+ years old, 2 DNF's, 0
completes) and myself (45 years old, 3 DNF's, 0 completes) keep
coming back to States. When I finally get a buckle, I don't want
somebody asking me if that's a pre or post 2001 bronze. I want the
buckle to speak for itself ... I want it to say; "Yes I finished in
less than 30 hours". See ya on the trails. Jerry McDonald
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, greg m soderlund <gsoderlund@j...> wrote:
> Regarding Carl Pegel's recent posting --
> Carl has displayed a very real and honorable desire to complete WS
> applaud him for that.
> I will pass along his letter to the WS Board when we meet in late
> September. While I am sympathetic, Carl should not be optimistic
> regarding an extension of the cutoffs for the 60+ runners.
> The primary argument against special treatment for one group of
> is the unavoidable fact that not all groups of runners can or will
> benefit. To tailor WS in such a way as to make it "Fair" for every
> as defined by age or sex is impossible. As Carl states -- "But
> does not take away that there are about 20 participants 60 and over
> year, and they, and especially those 65 and older, are at a decided
> disadvantage. The statistics confirm it." Yes, age is a major
> when considering the possibility of finishing in under 30 hours,
> it is not as you state, "Impossible." Many have finished WS and
> have broken 24 hours over the years. Age will always be a factor
> sporting event, particularly the extreme sports such as WS.
> A second but possibly the most important argument against extending
> cutoffs is the volunteers. One must be very familiar with the
> of an event as massive as WS, to completely understand this area.
> very fortunate to have the hundreds of volunteers that dedicate so
> of their time to this event year after year. To volunteer for WS
> other ultra, is to add some stress to your life. Every ultra
> walks a tightrope in this area and we never want to overextend our
> welcome and will often go to extreme lengths to make the volunteers
> happy. Adding two hours (at the front or the back) to WS simply
> not go over well with the volunteers, guaranteed. I'm sorry but
> a fact that drives many decisions regarding "Fairness" in every
> event. It is inherent, connot be avoided and is always part of any
> No unofficials, bandits or early starters will be allowed on the WS
> I very much, would like to see Carl at the finish line of WS next
> This will be my last response regarding this subject and will
> notify Carl of any changes in the rules, should they occur.
> Greg Soderlund, RD
> Western States Endurance Run http://www.ws100.com
> Way Too Cool 50K, Montrail/Patagonia American River 50
> 242 Hartnell Place, Sacramento, CA 95825 Ph : 916-456-1122
> http://www.run100s.com/snu -- E-mail: gsoderlund@j...
> On Tue, 29 Aug 2000 14:12:43 -0400 Carl Pegels <cpegels@a...>
> > I am somewhat disappointed that only a limited group of people
> > participate in a chat session such as this one. Also when a topic
> > limited interest is brought up it either creates a yawn or little
> > response. Runners over 60 make up only about 5 percent of the
> > participants and it is therefore not surprising that not a single
> > one
> > over 60 [ I believe] has participated in this discussion. The
> > responses
> > have been largely from younger runners, including those 50 year
> > olds. I
> > f I were a younger runner, i.e. under 55, I would also feel that
> > time limits are fair, at least for my fellow 55 and younger
> > But
> > that does not take away that there are about 20 participants 60
> > over
> > every year, and they, and especially those 65 and older, are at a
> > decided disadvantage. The statistics confirm it. Also be aware
> > many
> > of these nonfinishers over 65 have finished the WS100 before, and
> > some
> > have done so several times.
> > I believe the time has come to allow the 60+ and especially the
> > group an opportunity to participate and finish the run. It is
> > there
> > is a tradition, but times change. I am sure that in the early
> > of
> > Western States few people 60 and over participated, but now they
> > Also there have been precedences of famous runs changing their
> > rules.
> > The Boston Marathon used to have a qualifying time of 2:50
> > for
> > those under 40. They eventually realized that this strict rule was
> > unfair to 40 and under runners, and they changed it to make it
> > fairer.
> > Since then the Boston Marathon has grown in stature. Hence,
> > to
> > an unfair rule, or a rule that has become unfair, does not equate
> > sticking to tradition.
> > I propose that the WS Board not change the buckle times, the 24
> > 30
> > hour times to buckle for the silver and the bronze are fair. Also
> > there
> > is no need to change the cutoff times up to Michigan Bluff. The
> > majority of all runners can make those cutoffs. Forest Hill may
> > an
> > extra half hour. The cutoffs past Forest Hill should be relaxed
> > a
> > finishing time limit of 32 hours for the 60+ runners. The extra
> > for
> > the aid stations to stay open is rather minimal and I am sure
> > will
> > not object. The final clock finishing time will then be 1:00 PM.
> > Again
> > that should pose no problem for the award ceremony. The above
> > proposal
> > would do much to make the whole run much fairer to everyone. The
> > runners will still be motivated to finish under 30 hours to get a
> > buckle. But if they can't make the 30 hour time limit, and
> > has
> > shown that most can't , then at least will be able to claim that
> > they
> > finished the run.
> > If the above proposal is too radical, the Board may want to go
> > way
> > and expand the finishing time only to 31 hours. That way the race
> > would
> > finish at noon and it would at least increase the number of 60+
> > finishers to a limited extent.
> > I hope the WS Board will respond to this reasonable request from
> > 60+
> > runners. Remember eventually you will all join our group. And as
> > long as
> > you stay healthy you want to participate. Participating in an
> > where the chance of finishing is zero is not exactly an enticing
> > thing
> > to do. The reason some of us continue to try is hope, but
> > we
> > will give up. I, for one, will wait until there is some change.
> > I want to thank the audience for participating in this chat
> > If
> > any of you have the opportunity please bring my proposal to the WS
> > Board. It will give them something to ponder about. Happy
> > Carl
> > Pegels........... WS100 attempts: 2-------Finishes:0
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