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RE: [ws100] WS Cutoffs and Overall Time Limit

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  • Lewis, Chuck
    Carl.... As Hunter mentioned there s only a limited number of participants on this discussion board... My guess is that you re probably the only 60+ runner on
    Message 1 of 5 , Aug 29, 2000
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      Carl.... As Hunter mentioned there's only a limited number of participants
      on this discussion board... My guess is that you're probably the only 60+
      runner on it. There are a few other discussion boards that are very popular
      with runners across the country. You might want to take your plight there.
      As you probably know this is the WS discussion group... Not the WS Board of
      Directors. At least 2 key people have heard your concerns and even addressed
      them. Time to get back on the trail, off the soap box, and change the
      subject...........

      Hunter.... How are you doing? Good to see your still hanging around the
      group! Still running? What next on your agenda? I've broke down, at least
      for the moment, and can't seem to find the problem. I've been thinking about
      taking a break and maybe doing something new... maybe cycling, swimming
      (Yuck), or more fly fishing (Upper body). I'm hoping things will be working
      again by American River '01. Take care.
      Chuck

      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Carl Pegels [SMTP:cpegels@...]
      > Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 11:13 AM
      > To: ws100@egroups.com; cpegels@...
      > Subject: [ws100] WS Cutoffs and Overall Time Limit
      > Importance: High
      >
      > I am somewhat disappointed that only a limited group of people
      > participate in a chat session such as this one. Also when a topic of
      > limited interest is brought up it either creates a yawn or little
      > response. Runners over 60 make up only about 5 percent of the WS100
      > participants and it is therefore not surprising that not a single one
      > over 60 [ I believe] has participated in this discussion. The responses
      > have been largely from younger runners, including those 50 year olds. I
      > f I were a younger runner, i.e. under 55, I would also feel that the
      > time limits are fair, at least for my fellow 55 and younger runners. But
      > that does not take away that there are about 20 participants 60 and over
      > every year, and they, and especially those 65 and older, are at a
      > decided disadvantage. The statistics confirm it. Also be aware that many
      > of these nonfinishers over 65 have finished the WS100 before, and some
      > have done so several times.
      >
      > I believe the time has come to allow the 60+ and especially the 65+
      > group an opportunity to participate and finish the run. It is true there
      > is a tradition, but times change. I am sure that in the early years of
      > Western States few people 60 and over participated, but now they do.
      > Also there have been precedences of famous runs changing their rules.
      > The Boston Marathon used to have a qualifying time of 2:50 minutes for
      > those under 40. They eventually realized that this strict rule was
      > unfair to 40 and under runners, and they changed it to make it fairer.
      > Since then the Boston Marathon has grown in stature. Hence, sticking to
      > an unfair rule, or a rule that has become unfair, does not equate to
      > sticking to tradition.
      >
      > I propose that the WS Board not change the buckle times, the 24 and 30
      > hour times to buckle for the silver and the bronze are fair. Also there
      > is no need to change the cutoff times up to Michigan Bluff. The vast
      > majority of all runners can make those cutoffs. Forest Hill may need an
      > extra half hour. The cutoffs past Forest Hill should be relaxed with a
      > finishing time limit of 32 hours for the 60+ runners. The extra time for
      > the aid stations to stay open is rather minimal and I am sure they will
      > not object. The final clock finishing time will then be 1:00 PM. Again
      > that should pose no problem for the award ceremony. The above proposal
      > would do much to make the whole run much fairer to everyone. The 60+
      > runners will still be motivated to finish under 30 hours to get a
      > buckle. But if they can't make the 30 hour time limit, and history has
      > shown that most can't , then at least will be able to claim that they
      > finished the run.
      >
      > If the above proposal is too radical, the Board may want to go half way
      > and expand the finishing time only to 31 hours. That way the race would
      > finish at noon and it would at least increase the number of 60+
      > finishers to a limited extent.
      >
      > I hope the WS Board will respond to this reasonable request from the 60+
      > runners. Remember eventually you will all join our group. And as long as
      > you stay healthy you want to participate. Participating in an event
      > where the chance of finishing is zero is not exactly an enticing thing
      > to do. The reason some of us continue to try is hope, but eventually we
      > will give up. I, for one, will wait until there is some change.
      >
      > I want to thank the audience for participating in this chat session. If
      > any of you have the opportunity please bring my proposal to the WS
      > Board. It will give them something to ponder about. Happy running. Carl
      > Pegels........... WS100 attempts: 2-------Finishes:0
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > To Post a message, send it to: ws100@...
      >
      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: ws100-unsubscribe@...
    • Ziesing, Hunter S
      just got back from the east (7 weeks) back on the bike not sure if i do another ultra--remember i only trained 7 weeks for the WS100 and the result was a long
      Message 2 of 5 , Aug 29, 2000
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        just got back from the east (7 weeks)
        back on the bike
        not sure if i do another ultra--remember i only trained 7 weeks for the
        WS100 and the result was a long recovery from shin splints
        I will apply again and go for under 24 and train longer if i do it.
        it is gonna be tough to beat last year because finishing was the biggest
        personal victory in my life on limited training.
        I may just volunteer and do course work instead.f
        many people helped me last year and i want to return the favor
        may be i will pace run Carl (old fart)

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Lewis, Chuck [SMTP:LewisCW@...]
        > Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 12:57 PM
        > To: 'ws100@egroups.com'
        > Subject: RE: [ws100] WS Cutoffs and Overall Time Limit
        >
        > Carl.... As Hunter mentioned there's only a limited number of participants
        > on this discussion board... My guess is that you're probably the only 60+
        > runner on it. There are a few other discussion boards that are very
        > popular
        > with runners across the country. You might want to take your plight there.
        > As you probably know this is the WS discussion group... Not the WS Board
        > of
        > Directors. At least 2 key people have heard your concerns and even
        > addressed
        > them. Time to get back on the trail, off the soap box, and change the
        > subject...........
        >
        > Hunter.... How are you doing? Good to see your still hanging around the
        > group! Still running? What next on your agenda? I've broke down, at least
        > for the moment, and can't seem to find the problem. I've been thinking
        > about
        > taking a break and maybe doing something new... maybe cycling, swimming
        > (Yuck), or more fly fishing (Upper body). I'm hoping things will be
        > working
        > again by American River '01. Take care.
        > Chuck
        >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: Carl Pegels [SMTP:cpegels@...]
        > > Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 11:13 AM
        > > To: ws100@egroups.com; cpegels@...
        > > Subject: [ws100] WS Cutoffs and Overall Time Limit
        > > Importance: High
        > >
        > > I am somewhat disappointed that only a limited group of people
        > > participate in a chat session such as this one. Also when a topic of
        > > limited interest is brought up it either creates a yawn or little
        > > response. Runners over 60 make up only about 5 percent of the WS100
        > > participants and it is therefore not surprising that not a single one
        > > over 60 [ I believe] has participated in this discussion. The responses
        > > have been largely from younger runners, including those 50 year olds. I
        > > f I were a younger runner, i.e. under 55, I would also feel that the
        > > time limits are fair, at least for my fellow 55 and younger runners. But
        > > that does not take away that there are about 20 participants 60 and over
        > > every year, and they, and especially those 65 and older, are at a
        > > decided disadvantage. The statistics confirm it. Also be aware that many
        > > of these nonfinishers over 65 have finished the WS100 before, and some
        > > have done so several times.
        > >
        > > I believe the time has come to allow the 60+ and especially the 65+
        > > group an opportunity to participate and finish the run. It is true there
        > > is a tradition, but times change. I am sure that in the early years of
        > > Western States few people 60 and over participated, but now they do.
        > > Also there have been precedences of famous runs changing their rules.
        > > The Boston Marathon used to have a qualifying time of 2:50 minutes for
        > > those under 40. They eventually realized that this strict rule was
        > > unfair to 40 and under runners, and they changed it to make it fairer.
        > > Since then the Boston Marathon has grown in stature. Hence, sticking to
        > > an unfair rule, or a rule that has become unfair, does not equate to
        > > sticking to tradition.
        > >
        > > I propose that the WS Board not change the buckle times, the 24 and 30
        > > hour times to buckle for the silver and the bronze are fair. Also there
        > > is no need to change the cutoff times up to Michigan Bluff. The vast
        > > majority of all runners can make those cutoffs. Forest Hill may need an
        > > extra half hour. The cutoffs past Forest Hill should be relaxed with a
        > > finishing time limit of 32 hours for the 60+ runners. The extra time for
        > > the aid stations to stay open is rather minimal and I am sure they will
        > > not object. The final clock finishing time will then be 1:00 PM. Again
        > > that should pose no problem for the award ceremony. The above proposal
        > > would do much to make the whole run much fairer to everyone. The 60+
        > > runners will still be motivated to finish under 30 hours to get a
        > > buckle. But if they can't make the 30 hour time limit, and history has
        > > shown that most can't , then at least will be able to claim that they
        > > finished the run.
        > >
        > > If the above proposal is too radical, the Board may want to go half way
        > > and expand the finishing time only to 31 hours. That way the race would
        > > finish at noon and it would at least increase the number of 60+
        > > finishers to a limited extent.
        > >
        > > I hope the WS Board will respond to this reasonable request from the 60+
        > > runners. Remember eventually you will all join our group. And as long as
        > > you stay healthy you want to participate. Participating in an event
        > > where the chance of finishing is zero is not exactly an enticing thing
        > > to do. The reason some of us continue to try is hope, but eventually we
        > > will give up. I, for one, will wait until there is some change.
        > >
        > > I want to thank the audience for participating in this chat session. If
        > > any of you have the opportunity please bring my proposal to the WS
        > > Board. It will give them something to ponder about. Happy running. Carl
        > > Pegels........... WS100 attempts: 2-------Finishes:0
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > To Post a message, send it to: ws100@...
        > >
        > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: ws100-unsubscribe@...
        >
        >
        > To Post a message, send it to: ws100@...
        >
        > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: ws100-unsubscribe@...
        >
        >
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      • greg m soderlund
        Regarding Carl Pegel s recent posting -- Carl has displayed a very real and honorable desire to complete WS and I applaud him for that. I will pass along his
        Message 3 of 5 , Aug 29, 2000
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          Regarding Carl Pegel's recent posting --

          Carl has displayed a very real and honorable desire to complete WS and I
          applaud him for that.

          I will pass along his letter to the WS Board when we meet in late
          September. While I am sympathetic, Carl should not be optimistic
          regarding an extension of the cutoffs for the 60+ runners.

          The primary argument against special treatment for one group of runners
          is the unavoidable fact that not all groups of runners can or will
          benefit. To tailor WS in such a way as to make it "Fair" for every group
          as defined by age or sex is impossible. As Carl states -- "But that
          does not take away that there are about 20 participants 60 and over every
          year, and they, and especially those 65 and older, are at a decided
          disadvantage. The statistics confirm it." Yes, age is a major factor
          when considering the possibility of finishing in under 30 hours, however,
          it is not as you state, "Impossible." Many have finished WS and several
          have broken 24 hours over the years. Age will always be a factor in any
          sporting event, particularly the extreme sports such as WS.

          A second but possibly the most important argument against extending
          cutoffs is the volunteers. One must be very familiar with the logistics
          of an event as massive as WS, to completely understand this area. We are
          very fortunate to have the hundreds of volunteers that dedicate so much
          of their time to this event year after year. To volunteer for WS or any
          other ultra, is to add some stress to your life. Every ultra manager
          walks a tightrope in this area and we never want to overextend our
          welcome and will often go to extreme lengths to make the volunteers
          happy. Adding two hours (at the front or the back) to WS simply would
          not go over well with the volunteers, guaranteed. I'm sorry but that is
          a fact that drives many decisions regarding "Fairness" in every ultra
          event. It is inherent, connot be avoided and is always part of any
          decision.

          No unofficials, bandits or early starters will be allowed on the WS
          course.

          I very much, would like to see Carl at the finish line of WS next year!

          This will be my last response regarding this subject and will personally
          notify Carl of any changes in the rules, should they occur.

          Respectfully,

          Greg Soderlund, RD
          Western States Endurance Run http://www.ws100.com
          Way Too Cool 50K, Montrail/Patagonia American River 50
          242 Hartnell Place, Sacramento, CA 95825 Ph : 916-456-1122
          http://www.run100s.com/snu -- E-mail: gsoderlund@...


          On Tue, 29 Aug 2000 14:12:43 -0400 Carl Pegels <cpegels@...>
          writes:
          > I am somewhat disappointed that only a limited group of people
          > participate in a chat session such as this one. Also when a topic of
          > limited interest is brought up it either creates a yawn or little
          > response. Runners over 60 make up only about 5 percent of the WS100
          > participants and it is therefore not surprising that not a single
          > one
          > over 60 [ I believe] has participated in this discussion. The
          > responses
          > have been largely from younger runners, including those 50 year
          > olds. I
          > f I were a younger runner, i.e. under 55, I would also feel that the
          > time limits are fair, at least for my fellow 55 and younger runners.
          > But
          > that does not take away that there are about 20 participants 60 and
          > over
          > every year, and they, and especially those 65 and older, are at a
          > decided disadvantage. The statistics confirm it. Also be aware that
          > many
          > of these nonfinishers over 65 have finished the WS100 before, and
          > some
          > have done so several times.
          >
          > I believe the time has come to allow the 60+ and especially the 65+
          > group an opportunity to participate and finish the run. It is true
          > there
          > is a tradition, but times change. I am sure that in the early years
          > of
          > Western States few people 60 and over participated, but now they do.
          > Also there have been precedences of famous runs changing their
          > rules.
          > The Boston Marathon used to have a qualifying time of 2:50 minutes
          > for
          > those under 40. They eventually realized that this strict rule was
          > unfair to 40 and under runners, and they changed it to make it
          > fairer.
          > Since then the Boston Marathon has grown in stature. Hence, sticking
          > to
          > an unfair rule, or a rule that has become unfair, does not equate to
          > sticking to tradition.
          >
          > I propose that the WS Board not change the buckle times, the 24 and
          > 30
          > hour times to buckle for the silver and the bronze are fair. Also
          > there
          > is no need to change the cutoff times up to Michigan Bluff. The vast
          > majority of all runners can make those cutoffs. Forest Hill may need
          > an
          > extra half hour. The cutoffs past Forest Hill should be relaxed with
          > a
          > finishing time limit of 32 hours for the 60+ runners. The extra time
          > for
          > the aid stations to stay open is rather minimal and I am sure they
          > will
          > not object. The final clock finishing time will then be 1:00 PM.
          > Again
          > that should pose no problem for the award ceremony. The above
          > proposal
          > would do much to make the whole run much fairer to everyone. The 60+
          > runners will still be motivated to finish under 30 hours to get a
          > buckle. But if they can't make the 30 hour time limit, and history
          > has
          > shown that most can't , then at least will be able to claim that
          > they
          > finished the run.
          >
          > If the above proposal is too radical, the Board may want to go half
          > way
          > and expand the finishing time only to 31 hours. That way the race
          > would
          > finish at noon and it would at least increase the number of 60+
          > finishers to a limited extent.
          >
          > I hope the WS Board will respond to this reasonable request from the
          > 60+
          > runners. Remember eventually you will all join our group. And as
          > long as
          > you stay healthy you want to participate. Participating in an event
          > where the chance of finishing is zero is not exactly an enticing
          > thing
          > to do. The reason some of us continue to try is hope, but eventually
          > we
          > will give up. I, for one, will wait until there is some change.
          >
          > I want to thank the audience for participating in this chat session.
          > If
          > any of you have the opportunity please bring my proposal to the WS
          > Board. It will give them something to ponder about. Happy running.
          > Carl
          > Pegels........... WS100 attempts: 2-------Finishes:0
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
          >
          > To Post a message, send it to: ws100@...
          >
          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
          > ws100-unsubscribe@...
          >

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        • Jerry McDonald
          I fell reasonably sure that the WS Board probably markets this race to runners and potential sponsors based on prestige more than the percentage of finishers.
          Message 4 of 5 , Aug 30, 2000
          • 0 Attachment
            I fell reasonably sure that the WS Board probably markets this race
            to runners and potential sponsors based on prestige more than the
            percentage of finishers. The fact of the matter is that a lower
            percentage of finishers probably lends itself to greater level of
            prestige. This is why runners like Carl (60+ years old, 2 DNF's, 0
            completes) and myself (45 years old, 3 DNF's, 0 completes) keep
            coming back to States. When I finally get a buckle, I don't want
            somebody asking me if that's a pre or post 2001 bronze. I want the
            buckle to speak for itself ... I want it to say; "Yes I finished in
            less than 30 hours". See ya on the trails. Jerry McDonald

            --- In ws100@egroups.com, greg m soderlund <gsoderlund@j...> wrote:
            > Regarding Carl Pegel's recent posting --
            >
            > Carl has displayed a very real and honorable desire to complete WS
            and I
            > applaud him for that.
            >
            > I will pass along his letter to the WS Board when we meet in late
            > September. While I am sympathetic, Carl should not be optimistic
            > regarding an extension of the cutoffs for the 60+ runners.
            >
            > The primary argument against special treatment for one group of
            runners
            > is the unavoidable fact that not all groups of runners can or will
            > benefit. To tailor WS in such a way as to make it "Fair" for every
            group
            > as defined by age or sex is impossible. As Carl states -- "But
            that
            > does not take away that there are about 20 participants 60 and over
            every
            > year, and they, and especially those 65 and older, are at a decided
            > disadvantage. The statistics confirm it." Yes, age is a major
            factor
            > when considering the possibility of finishing in under 30 hours,
            however,
            > it is not as you state, "Impossible." Many have finished WS and
            several
            > have broken 24 hours over the years. Age will always be a factor
            in any
            > sporting event, particularly the extreme sports such as WS.
            >
            > A second but possibly the most important argument against extending
            > cutoffs is the volunteers. One must be very familiar with the
            logistics
            > of an event as massive as WS, to completely understand this area.
            We are
            > very fortunate to have the hundreds of volunteers that dedicate so
            much
            > of their time to this event year after year. To volunteer for WS
            or any
            > other ultra, is to add some stress to your life. Every ultra
            manager
            > walks a tightrope in this area and we never want to overextend our
            > welcome and will often go to extreme lengths to make the volunteers
            > happy. Adding two hours (at the front or the back) to WS simply
            would
            > not go over well with the volunteers, guaranteed. I'm sorry but
            that is
            > a fact that drives many decisions regarding "Fairness" in every
            ultra
            > event. It is inherent, connot be avoided and is always part of any
            > decision.
            >
            > No unofficials, bandits or early starters will be allowed on the WS
            > course.
            >
            > I very much, would like to see Carl at the finish line of WS next
            year!
            >
            > This will be my last response regarding this subject and will
            personally
            > notify Carl of any changes in the rules, should they occur.
            >
            > Respectfully,
            >
            > Greg Soderlund, RD
            > Western States Endurance Run http://www.ws100.com
            > Way Too Cool 50K, Montrail/Patagonia American River 50
            > 242 Hartnell Place, Sacramento, CA 95825 Ph : 916-456-1122
            > http://www.run100s.com/snu -- E-mail: gsoderlund@j...
            >
            >
            > On Tue, 29 Aug 2000 14:12:43 -0400 Carl Pegels <cpegels@a...>
            > writes:
            > > I am somewhat disappointed that only a limited group of people
            > > participate in a chat session such as this one. Also when a topic
            of
            > > limited interest is brought up it either creates a yawn or little
            > > response. Runners over 60 make up only about 5 percent of the
            WS100
            > > participants and it is therefore not surprising that not a single
            > > one
            > > over 60 [ I believe] has participated in this discussion. The
            > > responses
            > > have been largely from younger runners, including those 50 year
            > > olds. I
            > > f I were a younger runner, i.e. under 55, I would also feel that
            the
            > > time limits are fair, at least for my fellow 55 and younger
            runners.
            > > But
            > > that does not take away that there are about 20 participants 60
            and
            > > over
            > > every year, and they, and especially those 65 and older, are at a
            > > decided disadvantage. The statistics confirm it. Also be aware
            that
            > > many
            > > of these nonfinishers over 65 have finished the WS100 before, and
            > > some
            > > have done so several times.
            > >
            > > I believe the time has come to allow the 60+ and especially the
            65+
            > > group an opportunity to participate and finish the run. It is
            true
            > > there
            > > is a tradition, but times change. I am sure that in the early
            years
            > > of
            > > Western States few people 60 and over participated, but now they
            do.
            > > Also there have been precedences of famous runs changing their
            > > rules.
            > > The Boston Marathon used to have a qualifying time of 2:50
            minutes
            > > for
            > > those under 40. They eventually realized that this strict rule was
            > > unfair to 40 and under runners, and they changed it to make it
            > > fairer.
            > > Since then the Boston Marathon has grown in stature. Hence,
            sticking
            > > to
            > > an unfair rule, or a rule that has become unfair, does not equate
            to
            > > sticking to tradition.
            > >
            > > I propose that the WS Board not change the buckle times, the 24
            and
            > > 30
            > > hour times to buckle for the silver and the bronze are fair. Also
            > > there
            > > is no need to change the cutoff times up to Michigan Bluff. The
            vast
            > > majority of all runners can make those cutoffs. Forest Hill may
            need
            > > an
            > > extra half hour. The cutoffs past Forest Hill should be relaxed
            with
            > > a
            > > finishing time limit of 32 hours for the 60+ runners. The extra
            time
            > > for
            > > the aid stations to stay open is rather minimal and I am sure
            they
            > > will
            > > not object. The final clock finishing time will then be 1:00 PM.
            > > Again
            > > that should pose no problem for the award ceremony. The above
            > > proposal
            > > would do much to make the whole run much fairer to everyone. The
            60+
            > > runners will still be motivated to finish under 30 hours to get a
            > > buckle. But if they can't make the 30 hour time limit, and
            history
            > > has
            > > shown that most can't , then at least will be able to claim that
            > > they
            > > finished the run.
            > >
            > > If the above proposal is too radical, the Board may want to go
            half
            > > way
            > > and expand the finishing time only to 31 hours. That way the race
            > > would
            > > finish at noon and it would at least increase the number of 60+
            > > finishers to a limited extent.
            > >
            > > I hope the WS Board will respond to this reasonable request from
            the
            > > 60+
            > > runners. Remember eventually you will all join our group. And as
            > > long as
            > > you stay healthy you want to participate. Participating in an
            event
            > > where the chance of finishing is zero is not exactly an enticing
            > > thing
            > > to do. The reason some of us continue to try is hope, but
            eventually
            > > we
            > > will give up. I, for one, will wait until there is some change.
            > >
            > > I want to thank the audience for participating in this chat
            session.
            > > If
            > > any of you have the opportunity please bring my proposal to the WS
            > > Board. It will give them something to ponder about. Happy
            running.
            > > Carl
            > > Pegels........... WS100 attempts: 2-------Finishes:0
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
            > >
            > > To Post a message, send it to: ws100@e...
            > >
            > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
            > > ws100-unsubscribe@e...
            > >
            >
            > ________________________________________________________________
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