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RE: [ws100] WS Cutoffs and Overall Time Limit

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  • Ziesing, Hunter S
    Carl, the reason for the lack of response is that there are only 48 members on the egroups chat group. I just checked the website--egroups.com Chances are that
    Message 1 of 5 , Aug 29, 2000
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      Carl, the reason for the lack of response is that there are only 48 members
      on the egroups chat group. I just checked the website--egroups.com
      Chances are that most of the 48 participants are under 60 and take little
      interest in the over 60 thing.
      I think that you just let the 60 and over crowd start early--how hard is
      that?
      no one is to prevent you from going on the course--so do it unoffically with
      permission of the race director and a little of your own support during the
      first 5 hours in the early morning.
      This is not a race--let the buggers finish. Finishing is winning.

      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Carl Pegels [SMTP:cpegels@...]
      > Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 11:13 AM
      > To: ws100@egroups.com; cpegels@...
      > Subject: [ws100] WS Cutoffs and Overall Time Limit
      > Importance: High
      >
      > I am somewhat disappointed that only a limited group of people
      > participate in a chat session such as this one. Also when a topic of
      > limited interest is brought up it either creates a yawn or little
      > response. Runners over 60 make up only about 5 percent of the WS100
      > participants and it is therefore not surprising that not a single one
      > over 60 [ I believe] has participated in this discussion. The responses
      > have been largely from younger runners, including those 50 year olds. I
      > f I were a younger runner, i.e. under 55, I would also feel that the
      > time limits are fair, at least for my fellow 55 and younger runners. But
      > that does not take away that there are about 20 participants 60 and over
      > every year, and they, and especially those 65 and older, are at a
      > decided disadvantage. The statistics confirm it. Also be aware that many
      > of these nonfinishers over 65 have finished the WS100 before, and some
      > have done so several times.
      >
      > I believe the time has come to allow the 60+ and especially the 65+
      > group an opportunity to participate and finish the run. It is true there
      > is a tradition, but times change. I am sure that in the early years of
      > Western States few people 60 and over participated, but now they do.
      > Also there have been precedences of famous runs changing their rules.
      > The Boston Marathon used to have a qualifying time of 2:50 minutes for
      > those under 40. They eventually realized that this strict rule was
      > unfair to 40 and under runners, and they changed it to make it fairer.
      > Since then the Boston Marathon has grown in stature. Hence, sticking to
      > an unfair rule, or a rule that has become unfair, does not equate to
      > sticking to tradition.
      >
      > I propose that the WS Board not change the buckle times, the 24 and 30
      > hour times to buckle for the silver and the bronze are fair. Also there
      > is no need to change the cutoff times up to Michigan Bluff. The vast
      > majority of all runners can make those cutoffs. Forest Hill may need an
      > extra half hour. The cutoffs past Forest Hill should be relaxed with a
      > finishing time limit of 32 hours for the 60+ runners. The extra time for
      > the aid stations to stay open is rather minimal and I am sure they will
      > not object. The final clock finishing time will then be 1:00 PM. Again
      > that should pose no problem for the award ceremony. The above proposal
      > would do much to make the whole run much fairer to everyone. The 60+
      > runners will still be motivated to finish under 30 hours to get a
      > buckle. But if they can't make the 30 hour time limit, and history has
      > shown that most can't , then at least will be able to claim that they
      > finished the run.
      >
      > If the above proposal is too radical, the Board may want to go half way
      > and expand the finishing time only to 31 hours. That way the race would
      > finish at noon and it would at least increase the number of 60+
      > finishers to a limited extent.
      >
      > I hope the WS Board will respond to this reasonable request from the 60+
      > runners. Remember eventually you will all join our group. And as long as
      > you stay healthy you want to participate. Participating in an event
      > where the chance of finishing is zero is not exactly an enticing thing
      > to do. The reason some of us continue to try is hope, but eventually we
      > will give up. I, for one, will wait until there is some change.
      >
      > I want to thank the audience for participating in this chat session. If
      > any of you have the opportunity please bring my proposal to the WS
      > Board. It will give them something to ponder about. Happy running. Carl
      > Pegels........... WS100 attempts: 2-------Finishes:0
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > To Post a message, send it to: ws100@...
      >
      > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: ws100-unsubscribe@...
      >
      >
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    • Lewis, Chuck
      Carl.... As Hunter mentioned there s only a limited number of participants on this discussion board... My guess is that you re probably the only 60+ runner on
      Message 2 of 5 , Aug 29, 2000
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        Carl.... As Hunter mentioned there's only a limited number of participants
        on this discussion board... My guess is that you're probably the only 60+
        runner on it. There are a few other discussion boards that are very popular
        with runners across the country. You might want to take your plight there.
        As you probably know this is the WS discussion group... Not the WS Board of
        Directors. At least 2 key people have heard your concerns and even addressed
        them. Time to get back on the trail, off the soap box, and change the
        subject...........

        Hunter.... How are you doing? Good to see your still hanging around the
        group! Still running? What next on your agenda? I've broke down, at least
        for the moment, and can't seem to find the problem. I've been thinking about
        taking a break and maybe doing something new... maybe cycling, swimming
        (Yuck), or more fly fishing (Upper body). I'm hoping things will be working
        again by American River '01. Take care.
        Chuck

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Carl Pegels [SMTP:cpegels@...]
        > Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 11:13 AM
        > To: ws100@egroups.com; cpegels@...
        > Subject: [ws100] WS Cutoffs and Overall Time Limit
        > Importance: High
        >
        > I am somewhat disappointed that only a limited group of people
        > participate in a chat session such as this one. Also when a topic of
        > limited interest is brought up it either creates a yawn or little
        > response. Runners over 60 make up only about 5 percent of the WS100
        > participants and it is therefore not surprising that not a single one
        > over 60 [ I believe] has participated in this discussion. The responses
        > have been largely from younger runners, including those 50 year olds. I
        > f I were a younger runner, i.e. under 55, I would also feel that the
        > time limits are fair, at least for my fellow 55 and younger runners. But
        > that does not take away that there are about 20 participants 60 and over
        > every year, and they, and especially those 65 and older, are at a
        > decided disadvantage. The statistics confirm it. Also be aware that many
        > of these nonfinishers over 65 have finished the WS100 before, and some
        > have done so several times.
        >
        > I believe the time has come to allow the 60+ and especially the 65+
        > group an opportunity to participate and finish the run. It is true there
        > is a tradition, but times change. I am sure that in the early years of
        > Western States few people 60 and over participated, but now they do.
        > Also there have been precedences of famous runs changing their rules.
        > The Boston Marathon used to have a qualifying time of 2:50 minutes for
        > those under 40. They eventually realized that this strict rule was
        > unfair to 40 and under runners, and they changed it to make it fairer.
        > Since then the Boston Marathon has grown in stature. Hence, sticking to
        > an unfair rule, or a rule that has become unfair, does not equate to
        > sticking to tradition.
        >
        > I propose that the WS Board not change the buckle times, the 24 and 30
        > hour times to buckle for the silver and the bronze are fair. Also there
        > is no need to change the cutoff times up to Michigan Bluff. The vast
        > majority of all runners can make those cutoffs. Forest Hill may need an
        > extra half hour. The cutoffs past Forest Hill should be relaxed with a
        > finishing time limit of 32 hours for the 60+ runners. The extra time for
        > the aid stations to stay open is rather minimal and I am sure they will
        > not object. The final clock finishing time will then be 1:00 PM. Again
        > that should pose no problem for the award ceremony. The above proposal
        > would do much to make the whole run much fairer to everyone. The 60+
        > runners will still be motivated to finish under 30 hours to get a
        > buckle. But if they can't make the 30 hour time limit, and history has
        > shown that most can't , then at least will be able to claim that they
        > finished the run.
        >
        > If the above proposal is too radical, the Board may want to go half way
        > and expand the finishing time only to 31 hours. That way the race would
        > finish at noon and it would at least increase the number of 60+
        > finishers to a limited extent.
        >
        > I hope the WS Board will respond to this reasonable request from the 60+
        > runners. Remember eventually you will all join our group. And as long as
        > you stay healthy you want to participate. Participating in an event
        > where the chance of finishing is zero is not exactly an enticing thing
        > to do. The reason some of us continue to try is hope, but eventually we
        > will give up. I, for one, will wait until there is some change.
        >
        > I want to thank the audience for participating in this chat session. If
        > any of you have the opportunity please bring my proposal to the WS
        > Board. It will give them something to ponder about. Happy running. Carl
        > Pegels........... WS100 attempts: 2-------Finishes:0
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > To Post a message, send it to: ws100@...
        >
        > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: ws100-unsubscribe@...
      • Ziesing, Hunter S
        just got back from the east (7 weeks) back on the bike not sure if i do another ultra--remember i only trained 7 weeks for the WS100 and the result was a long
        Message 3 of 5 , Aug 29, 2000
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          just got back from the east (7 weeks)
          back on the bike
          not sure if i do another ultra--remember i only trained 7 weeks for the
          WS100 and the result was a long recovery from shin splints
          I will apply again and go for under 24 and train longer if i do it.
          it is gonna be tough to beat last year because finishing was the biggest
          personal victory in my life on limited training.
          I may just volunteer and do course work instead.f
          many people helped me last year and i want to return the favor
          may be i will pace run Carl (old fart)

          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Lewis, Chuck [SMTP:LewisCW@...]
          > Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 12:57 PM
          > To: 'ws100@egroups.com'
          > Subject: RE: [ws100] WS Cutoffs and Overall Time Limit
          >
          > Carl.... As Hunter mentioned there's only a limited number of participants
          > on this discussion board... My guess is that you're probably the only 60+
          > runner on it. There are a few other discussion boards that are very
          > popular
          > with runners across the country. You might want to take your plight there.
          > As you probably know this is the WS discussion group... Not the WS Board
          > of
          > Directors. At least 2 key people have heard your concerns and even
          > addressed
          > them. Time to get back on the trail, off the soap box, and change the
          > subject...........
          >
          > Hunter.... How are you doing? Good to see your still hanging around the
          > group! Still running? What next on your agenda? I've broke down, at least
          > for the moment, and can't seem to find the problem. I've been thinking
          > about
          > taking a break and maybe doing something new... maybe cycling, swimming
          > (Yuck), or more fly fishing (Upper body). I'm hoping things will be
          > working
          > again by American River '01. Take care.
          > Chuck
          >
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: Carl Pegels [SMTP:cpegels@...]
          > > Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 11:13 AM
          > > To: ws100@egroups.com; cpegels@...
          > > Subject: [ws100] WS Cutoffs and Overall Time Limit
          > > Importance: High
          > >
          > > I am somewhat disappointed that only a limited group of people
          > > participate in a chat session such as this one. Also when a topic of
          > > limited interest is brought up it either creates a yawn or little
          > > response. Runners over 60 make up only about 5 percent of the WS100
          > > participants and it is therefore not surprising that not a single one
          > > over 60 [ I believe] has participated in this discussion. The responses
          > > have been largely from younger runners, including those 50 year olds. I
          > > f I were a younger runner, i.e. under 55, I would also feel that the
          > > time limits are fair, at least for my fellow 55 and younger runners. But
          > > that does not take away that there are about 20 participants 60 and over
          > > every year, and they, and especially those 65 and older, are at a
          > > decided disadvantage. The statistics confirm it. Also be aware that many
          > > of these nonfinishers over 65 have finished the WS100 before, and some
          > > have done so several times.
          > >
          > > I believe the time has come to allow the 60+ and especially the 65+
          > > group an opportunity to participate and finish the run. It is true there
          > > is a tradition, but times change. I am sure that in the early years of
          > > Western States few people 60 and over participated, but now they do.
          > > Also there have been precedences of famous runs changing their rules.
          > > The Boston Marathon used to have a qualifying time of 2:50 minutes for
          > > those under 40. They eventually realized that this strict rule was
          > > unfair to 40 and under runners, and they changed it to make it fairer.
          > > Since then the Boston Marathon has grown in stature. Hence, sticking to
          > > an unfair rule, or a rule that has become unfair, does not equate to
          > > sticking to tradition.
          > >
          > > I propose that the WS Board not change the buckle times, the 24 and 30
          > > hour times to buckle for the silver and the bronze are fair. Also there
          > > is no need to change the cutoff times up to Michigan Bluff. The vast
          > > majority of all runners can make those cutoffs. Forest Hill may need an
          > > extra half hour. The cutoffs past Forest Hill should be relaxed with a
          > > finishing time limit of 32 hours for the 60+ runners. The extra time for
          > > the aid stations to stay open is rather minimal and I am sure they will
          > > not object. The final clock finishing time will then be 1:00 PM. Again
          > > that should pose no problem for the award ceremony. The above proposal
          > > would do much to make the whole run much fairer to everyone. The 60+
          > > runners will still be motivated to finish under 30 hours to get a
          > > buckle. But if they can't make the 30 hour time limit, and history has
          > > shown that most can't , then at least will be able to claim that they
          > > finished the run.
          > >
          > > If the above proposal is too radical, the Board may want to go half way
          > > and expand the finishing time only to 31 hours. That way the race would
          > > finish at noon and it would at least increase the number of 60+
          > > finishers to a limited extent.
          > >
          > > I hope the WS Board will respond to this reasonable request from the 60+
          > > runners. Remember eventually you will all join our group. And as long as
          > > you stay healthy you want to participate. Participating in an event
          > > where the chance of finishing is zero is not exactly an enticing thing
          > > to do. The reason some of us continue to try is hope, but eventually we
          > > will give up. I, for one, will wait until there is some change.
          > >
          > > I want to thank the audience for participating in this chat session. If
          > > any of you have the opportunity please bring my proposal to the WS
          > > Board. It will give them something to ponder about. Happy running. Carl
          > > Pegels........... WS100 attempts: 2-------Finishes:0
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > To Post a message, send it to: ws100@...
          > >
          > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: ws100-unsubscribe@...
          >
          >
          > To Post a message, send it to: ws100@...
          >
          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: ws100-unsubscribe@...
          >
          >
          _____________________________________________________________________
          IMPORTANT NOTICES:
          This message is intended only for the addressee. Please notify the
          sender by e-mail if you are not the intended recipient. If you are not the
          intended recipient, you may not copy, disclose, or distribute this message
          or its contents to any other person and any such actions may be unlawful.

          Banc of America Securities LLC("BAS") does not accept time
          sensitive, action-oriented messages or transaction orders, including orders
          to purchase or sell securities, via e-mail.

          BAS reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all
          messages sent to or from this e-mail address. Messages sent to or from this
          e-mail address may be stored on the BAS e-mail system.
        • greg m soderlund
          Regarding Carl Pegel s recent posting -- Carl has displayed a very real and honorable desire to complete WS and I applaud him for that. I will pass along his
          Message 4 of 5 , Aug 29, 2000
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            Regarding Carl Pegel's recent posting --

            Carl has displayed a very real and honorable desire to complete WS and I
            applaud him for that.

            I will pass along his letter to the WS Board when we meet in late
            September. While I am sympathetic, Carl should not be optimistic
            regarding an extension of the cutoffs for the 60+ runners.

            The primary argument against special treatment for one group of runners
            is the unavoidable fact that not all groups of runners can or will
            benefit. To tailor WS in such a way as to make it "Fair" for every group
            as defined by age or sex is impossible. As Carl states -- "But that
            does not take away that there are about 20 participants 60 and over every
            year, and they, and especially those 65 and older, are at a decided
            disadvantage. The statistics confirm it." Yes, age is a major factor
            when considering the possibility of finishing in under 30 hours, however,
            it is not as you state, "Impossible." Many have finished WS and several
            have broken 24 hours over the years. Age will always be a factor in any
            sporting event, particularly the extreme sports such as WS.

            A second but possibly the most important argument against extending
            cutoffs is the volunteers. One must be very familiar with the logistics
            of an event as massive as WS, to completely understand this area. We are
            very fortunate to have the hundreds of volunteers that dedicate so much
            of their time to this event year after year. To volunteer for WS or any
            other ultra, is to add some stress to your life. Every ultra manager
            walks a tightrope in this area and we never want to overextend our
            welcome and will often go to extreme lengths to make the volunteers
            happy. Adding two hours (at the front or the back) to WS simply would
            not go over well with the volunteers, guaranteed. I'm sorry but that is
            a fact that drives many decisions regarding "Fairness" in every ultra
            event. It is inherent, connot be avoided and is always part of any
            decision.

            No unofficials, bandits or early starters will be allowed on the WS
            course.

            I very much, would like to see Carl at the finish line of WS next year!

            This will be my last response regarding this subject and will personally
            notify Carl of any changes in the rules, should they occur.

            Respectfully,

            Greg Soderlund, RD
            Western States Endurance Run http://www.ws100.com
            Way Too Cool 50K, Montrail/Patagonia American River 50
            242 Hartnell Place, Sacramento, CA 95825 Ph : 916-456-1122
            http://www.run100s.com/snu -- E-mail: gsoderlund@...


            On Tue, 29 Aug 2000 14:12:43 -0400 Carl Pegels <cpegels@...>
            writes:
            > I am somewhat disappointed that only a limited group of people
            > participate in a chat session such as this one. Also when a topic of
            > limited interest is brought up it either creates a yawn or little
            > response. Runners over 60 make up only about 5 percent of the WS100
            > participants and it is therefore not surprising that not a single
            > one
            > over 60 [ I believe] has participated in this discussion. The
            > responses
            > have been largely from younger runners, including those 50 year
            > olds. I
            > f I were a younger runner, i.e. under 55, I would also feel that the
            > time limits are fair, at least for my fellow 55 and younger runners.
            > But
            > that does not take away that there are about 20 participants 60 and
            > over
            > every year, and they, and especially those 65 and older, are at a
            > decided disadvantage. The statistics confirm it. Also be aware that
            > many
            > of these nonfinishers over 65 have finished the WS100 before, and
            > some
            > have done so several times.
            >
            > I believe the time has come to allow the 60+ and especially the 65+
            > group an opportunity to participate and finish the run. It is true
            > there
            > is a tradition, but times change. I am sure that in the early years
            > of
            > Western States few people 60 and over participated, but now they do.
            > Also there have been precedences of famous runs changing their
            > rules.
            > The Boston Marathon used to have a qualifying time of 2:50 minutes
            > for
            > those under 40. They eventually realized that this strict rule was
            > unfair to 40 and under runners, and they changed it to make it
            > fairer.
            > Since then the Boston Marathon has grown in stature. Hence, sticking
            > to
            > an unfair rule, or a rule that has become unfair, does not equate to
            > sticking to tradition.
            >
            > I propose that the WS Board not change the buckle times, the 24 and
            > 30
            > hour times to buckle for the silver and the bronze are fair. Also
            > there
            > is no need to change the cutoff times up to Michigan Bluff. The vast
            > majority of all runners can make those cutoffs. Forest Hill may need
            > an
            > extra half hour. The cutoffs past Forest Hill should be relaxed with
            > a
            > finishing time limit of 32 hours for the 60+ runners. The extra time
            > for
            > the aid stations to stay open is rather minimal and I am sure they
            > will
            > not object. The final clock finishing time will then be 1:00 PM.
            > Again
            > that should pose no problem for the award ceremony. The above
            > proposal
            > would do much to make the whole run much fairer to everyone. The 60+
            > runners will still be motivated to finish under 30 hours to get a
            > buckle. But if they can't make the 30 hour time limit, and history
            > has
            > shown that most can't , then at least will be able to claim that
            > they
            > finished the run.
            >
            > If the above proposal is too radical, the Board may want to go half
            > way
            > and expand the finishing time only to 31 hours. That way the race
            > would
            > finish at noon and it would at least increase the number of 60+
            > finishers to a limited extent.
            >
            > I hope the WS Board will respond to this reasonable request from the
            > 60+
            > runners. Remember eventually you will all join our group. And as
            > long as
            > you stay healthy you want to participate. Participating in an event
            > where the chance of finishing is zero is not exactly an enticing
            > thing
            > to do. The reason some of us continue to try is hope, but eventually
            > we
            > will give up. I, for one, will wait until there is some change.
            >
            > I want to thank the audience for participating in this chat session.
            > If
            > any of you have the opportunity please bring my proposal to the WS
            > Board. It will give them something to ponder about. Happy running.
            > Carl
            > Pegels........... WS100 attempts: 2-------Finishes:0
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor
            >
            > To Post a message, send it to: ws100@...
            >
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            > ws100-unsubscribe@...
            >

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          • Jerry McDonald
            I fell reasonably sure that the WS Board probably markets this race to runners and potential sponsors based on prestige more than the percentage of finishers.
            Message 5 of 5 , Aug 30, 2000
            • 0 Attachment
              I fell reasonably sure that the WS Board probably markets this race
              to runners and potential sponsors based on prestige more than the
              percentage of finishers. The fact of the matter is that a lower
              percentage of finishers probably lends itself to greater level of
              prestige. This is why runners like Carl (60+ years old, 2 DNF's, 0
              completes) and myself (45 years old, 3 DNF's, 0 completes) keep
              coming back to States. When I finally get a buckle, I don't want
              somebody asking me if that's a pre or post 2001 bronze. I want the
              buckle to speak for itself ... I want it to say; "Yes I finished in
              less than 30 hours". See ya on the trails. Jerry McDonald

              --- In ws100@egroups.com, greg m soderlund <gsoderlund@j...> wrote:
              > Regarding Carl Pegel's recent posting --
              >
              > Carl has displayed a very real and honorable desire to complete WS
              and I
              > applaud him for that.
              >
              > I will pass along his letter to the WS Board when we meet in late
              > September. While I am sympathetic, Carl should not be optimistic
              > regarding an extension of the cutoffs for the 60+ runners.
              >
              > The primary argument against special treatment for one group of
              runners
              > is the unavoidable fact that not all groups of runners can or will
              > benefit. To tailor WS in such a way as to make it "Fair" for every
              group
              > as defined by age or sex is impossible. As Carl states -- "But
              that
              > does not take away that there are about 20 participants 60 and over
              every
              > year, and they, and especially those 65 and older, are at a decided
              > disadvantage. The statistics confirm it." Yes, age is a major
              factor
              > when considering the possibility of finishing in under 30 hours,
              however,
              > it is not as you state, "Impossible." Many have finished WS and
              several
              > have broken 24 hours over the years. Age will always be a factor
              in any
              > sporting event, particularly the extreme sports such as WS.
              >
              > A second but possibly the most important argument against extending
              > cutoffs is the volunteers. One must be very familiar with the
              logistics
              > of an event as massive as WS, to completely understand this area.
              We are
              > very fortunate to have the hundreds of volunteers that dedicate so
              much
              > of their time to this event year after year. To volunteer for WS
              or any
              > other ultra, is to add some stress to your life. Every ultra
              manager
              > walks a tightrope in this area and we never want to overextend our
              > welcome and will often go to extreme lengths to make the volunteers
              > happy. Adding two hours (at the front or the back) to WS simply
              would
              > not go over well with the volunteers, guaranteed. I'm sorry but
              that is
              > a fact that drives many decisions regarding "Fairness" in every
              ultra
              > event. It is inherent, connot be avoided and is always part of any
              > decision.
              >
              > No unofficials, bandits or early starters will be allowed on the WS
              > course.
              >
              > I very much, would like to see Carl at the finish line of WS next
              year!
              >
              > This will be my last response regarding this subject and will
              personally
              > notify Carl of any changes in the rules, should they occur.
              >
              > Respectfully,
              >
              > Greg Soderlund, RD
              > Western States Endurance Run http://www.ws100.com
              > Way Too Cool 50K, Montrail/Patagonia American River 50
              > 242 Hartnell Place, Sacramento, CA 95825 Ph : 916-456-1122
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              >
              > On Tue, 29 Aug 2000 14:12:43 -0400 Carl Pegels <cpegels@a...>
              > writes:
              > > I am somewhat disappointed that only a limited group of people
              > > participate in a chat session such as this one. Also when a topic
              of
              > > limited interest is brought up it either creates a yawn or little
              > > response. Runners over 60 make up only about 5 percent of the
              WS100
              > > participants and it is therefore not surprising that not a single
              > > one
              > > over 60 [ I believe] has participated in this discussion. The
              > > responses
              > > have been largely from younger runners, including those 50 year
              > > olds. I
              > > f I were a younger runner, i.e. under 55, I would also feel that
              the
              > > time limits are fair, at least for my fellow 55 and younger
              runners.
              > > But
              > > that does not take away that there are about 20 participants 60
              and
              > > over
              > > every year, and they, and especially those 65 and older, are at a
              > > decided disadvantage. The statistics confirm it. Also be aware
              that
              > > many
              > > of these nonfinishers over 65 have finished the WS100 before, and
              > > some
              > > have done so several times.
              > >
              > > I believe the time has come to allow the 60+ and especially the
              65+
              > > group an opportunity to participate and finish the run. It is
              true
              > > there
              > > is a tradition, but times change. I am sure that in the early
              years
              > > of
              > > Western States few people 60 and over participated, but now they
              do.
              > > Also there have been precedences of famous runs changing their
              > > rules.
              > > The Boston Marathon used to have a qualifying time of 2:50
              minutes
              > > for
              > > those under 40. They eventually realized that this strict rule was
              > > unfair to 40 and under runners, and they changed it to make it
              > > fairer.
              > > Since then the Boston Marathon has grown in stature. Hence,
              sticking
              > > to
              > > an unfair rule, or a rule that has become unfair, does not equate
              to
              > > sticking to tradition.
              > >
              > > I propose that the WS Board not change the buckle times, the 24
              and
              > > 30
              > > hour times to buckle for the silver and the bronze are fair. Also
              > > there
              > > is no need to change the cutoff times up to Michigan Bluff. The
              vast
              > > majority of all runners can make those cutoffs. Forest Hill may
              need
              > > an
              > > extra half hour. The cutoffs past Forest Hill should be relaxed
              with
              > > a
              > > finishing time limit of 32 hours for the 60+ runners. The extra
              time
              > > for
              > > the aid stations to stay open is rather minimal and I am sure
              they
              > > will
              > > not object. The final clock finishing time will then be 1:00 PM.
              > > Again
              > > that should pose no problem for the award ceremony. The above
              > > proposal
              > > would do much to make the whole run much fairer to everyone. The
              60+
              > > runners will still be motivated to finish under 30 hours to get a
              > > buckle. But if they can't make the 30 hour time limit, and
              history
              > > has
              > > shown that most can't , then at least will be able to claim that
              > > they
              > > finished the run.
              > >
              > > If the above proposal is too radical, the Board may want to go
              half
              > > way
              > > and expand the finishing time only to 31 hours. That way the race
              > > would
              > > finish at noon and it would at least increase the number of 60+
              > > finishers to a limited extent.
              > >
              > > I hope the WS Board will respond to this reasonable request from
              the
              > > 60+
              > > runners. Remember eventually you will all join our group. And as
              > > long as
              > > you stay healthy you want to participate. Participating in an
              event
              > > where the chance of finishing is zero is not exactly an enticing
              > > thing
              > > to do. The reason some of us continue to try is hope, but
              eventually
              > > we
              > > will give up. I, for one, will wait until there is some change.
              > >
              > > I want to thank the audience for participating in this chat
              session.
              > > If
              > > any of you have the opportunity please bring my proposal to the WS
              > > Board. It will give them something to ponder about. Happy
              running.
              > > Carl
              > > Pegels........... WS100 attempts: 2-------Finishes:0
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
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              >
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