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Re: [wpamushroomclub] Re: candy caps

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  • Boletebill
    John. I know there are rules for pronouncing Latin names but since many mushroom scientific names are also Greek or part Greek the rules don t stick 100%. I
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 1, 2007
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      John.
         I know there are rules for pronouncing Latin names but since many mushroom scientific names are also Greek or part Greek the rules don't stick 100%.  I have a tape recording (which I think I got from NAMA) of Alexander Smith one one side and Rolf Singer on the other pronouncing the Latin for 100 mushrooms.  Alex Smith is th American pronounciation and Rolf Singer the European.  They vary widely in their respective pronounciation. These are probably the two greatest mycologists of the 20th century...if they couldn't agree I'm not going to worry about it {:>]...
        Ed Bosman, NEMF founder and CVMS founder and leader for 30 years has written a Latin pronounciation guide for mushrooms and if I can find it I'll scan it and post it.
       
                                  Bill Yule

      sable_bp <sable_bp@...> wrote:
      Bill,

      We are looking forward to seeing you again. One of the things that
      my family is very proud of is the number of people that have learned
      a lot of Latin in our club.

      I remember all those years that John and I carried a temperature
      gage, a pH gage, and a bunch of chemicals around. We charted the
      weather, plotted locations and times and all those other things that
      we used to do. After all that, there is still many a day I think is
      going to be good for mushrooming and it stinks, or the other way
      around.

      I do have a question for you. If we are going to scientific names
      instead of common names, should we call the sulfur shelf, Laetiporus
      sulphureus, by its American pronunciation or the European
      pronunciation?

      My mushroom hunting buddy that knows a good number of mushrooms,
      tells me that the priests he had at St. Vincent College would roll
      over in their graves if they heard us pronounce Latin the way we many
      times do.

      Big John

      --- In wpamushroomclub@ yahoogroups. com, Boletebill <boletebill@ ...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Hi Big John.
      > I won't repeat what I've written in the previous post re Candy
      Caps about common names because it's an issue that everyone has to
      make up their own minds about...that is what do I want to call this
      particular mushroom, any mushroom that you know well...Do I want to
      call it Caeser's Mushroom, The American Caeser's Mushroom, Amanita
      caesera, Amanita jacksonii, Caesar's Amanita...there is no right or
      wrong because if you know the mushroom you know the mushroom. Part
      of the headache is that common names don't travel well or translate
      well...so if you hunt for the pot locally common names are all you'll
      really need. Scientist insist on scientific names for their own
      reasons, most of them good reasons, but there's no obligation for
      amateurs to learn those names or keep up with the name changes.
      Destroying Angel refers to a least six different mushrooms. All
      white, poisonous Amanitas of varying toxicity. So any Destroying
      Angel is smart to stay away from. I follow the name
      > changes because I like the stories behing the changes. It's the
      story of evolution and to me, that's the best story going, hands
      down. But that's just me.
      > I look forward to seeing you all, Big John, John III, the whole
      big happy clan of you mushroom lovers from PA...I've been absent for
      a couple of years from regional forays but I'm finding my way back
      this year and I always enjoy them immensely. Happy hunting.
      >
      > Bill Yule
      >
      > sable_bp <sable_bp@.. .> wrote:
      > Hi Bill,
      >
      > Hope to see you again at the NorthEast Foray this year, at the
      > University of Maine at Orono. Back in 1991 we went to our first
      > NorthEast Foray. It was also at the Orono Campus. This is going to
      > take us back memory lane and thousands of good mushroom hunting and
      > identification days. It was extremely impressive. Who could forget
      > eating lobster at a mushroom foray? I could tell you lots of
      stories
      > about that foray, but one of the things I remember is that at the
      > time I knew more common names of mushrooms than scientific names.
      As
      > you know, at the big NorthEast Foray the names used are almost
      always
      > scientific. We were in seventh heaven, however, I didn't know near
      > enough of a foreign language---Latin.
      >
      > The NEMF foray that year was followed by the NAMA foray. We took
      the
      > ferry across Lake Champlain. Low and behold, Alan & Arleen Bessette
      > were on the ferry with us. They were also going to the NAMA foray
      at
      > Paul Smith College in NY. Once again at Paul Smith, I was deluged
      > with scientific names. I went home from those two forays bound and
      > determined to learn more scientific names. I learned a good many of
      > them. At the famous socials, I was told that scientific names were
      > important. That way everybody could talk about the same mushroom
      > because the names were universal. No matter what country you went
      to
      > you could talk to somebody about mushrooms and everybody would know
      > what you were talking about. I believed everything I was told.
      >
      > My pursuit of science and edibles were both appeased. Since then,
      > although I have attended a ton of NAMA and NEMF Forays, I have only
      > hunted mushrooms in Canada a half dozen times and never in Europe.
      I
      > find my need to know scientific names a lot less important than I
      > used to think it was.
      >
      > Besides that, as an example, Amanita caesarea, Caesar's Mushroom
      does
      > not have the same scientific name in Europe as in the US because
      they
      > are two different species. That is the case with many mushrooms.
      > Their scientific names become less important. You know that most
      > mushroom names come from Latin or Greek. I have attended lectures
      > and read books that said it is important to know the scientific
      names
      > and what they mean. For example, in Mushrooms Demystified Aurora
      > tells us that brunne is the root word for brown, but the word brown
      > also means brown. A name by any other name is still the name and I
      > still understand the word brown better than brunne and so do the
      huge
      > majority of people. I think the problem becomes more important in
      > Europe where you have small countries very close to each other with
      > people speaking many different languages. That is different from
      > here where we all speak the same language.
      >
      > Besides those who attend a NorthEast Foray, how many of the
      millions
      > of mushroom hunters across the country know what Grifola frondosa
      > is? In western PA we call it a sheephead. In north eastern PA they
      > call it a ram's head. In Lincoff's Audubon book he calls it hen of
      > the woods. That can make things confusing. But the scientific names
      > change. What was Grifola frondosa called before? Polyporus
      > frondosus. When is it going to change again? Many scientific names
      > have changed numerous times.
      >
      > For those who are going to travel to Europe hunting mushrooms or go
      > to NAMA or NEMF forays, I suggest you learn as many scientific
      names
      > as you can. But, for the rest of the country, I think common names
      > are just fine.
      >
      > I was overjoyed when the scientists said they were going to
      > standardize common names, then we would have something more stable
      > than the scientific names. If I had been appointed to that
      > commission, I would have said for all those mushrooms that have
      > common names in the Lincoff Audubon book, let that be the standard
      > common name. I think that book has probably sold more copies that
      > other mushroom books altogether. Therefore, I feel they are widely
      > known. I have always been a little suspicious that the reason the
      > scientists formed the commission to standardize common names is
      that
      > they needed a name they could depend on, so they would be able tell
      > what mushroom they were talking about. : ) I could be wrong.
      >
      > We met Emily Johnson about forty years ago, she lived in our area.
      > She was rather well known in NAMA and NEMF circles. A couple years
      > before she died, I asked her how many mushrooms she knew. Her
      > response was, "A heck of a lot less than I used to, I can't keep up
      > with all the name changes."
      >
      > I know how she felt. They are now telling us that some puffballs
      > aren't puffballs; they are more closely related to boletes. Lately,
      > I have been giving some thought to forgetting about the scientific
      > pursuit and just enjoying the taste.
      >
      > In our club, whenever possible we like to give both the common name
      > and scientific name. We have been successful in having a number of
      > people learn a lot of scientific names. However, the English names
      > (common) are still a little easier for me to grasp than the Latin
      or
      > the Greek.
      >
      > Bill, I understand where you are coming from. We are planning on
      > attending both the NEMF and NAMA forays this year. Once again, I
      > will brush up on my Latin and Greek. It is important.
      >
      > Big John
      >
      > --- In wpamushroomclub@ yahoogroups. com, Boletebill <boletebill@ >
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi.
      > > The name's not new. You spelled it wrong, it's Lactarius
      > fragilis. It's the name of the mushroom people call Candy Caps.
      Some
      > people call Lactarius rubidus the Candy Cap. Some call L.
      camphoratus
      > the Candy Cap. L. fragilis is an Alex Smith mushroom identified in
      > the key in Hestler and Smith's monograph of Lactarius (1979). There
      > is an opinion that Candy Cap refers to any of several Lactarius
      that
      > smell of maple syrup, burnt sugar or any sweet maple-like flavor.
      > > IMHO scientific names, new, old, and recently changed are
      > important and useful to scientists and amatuers who have a deep
      > interest in all aspects of mycology. Scientific names, new, old and
      > recently changed tell a story about the mushrooms history, what we
      > used to know about it and what we think we know about it now. I
      find
      > that fascinating. Common names are great for amateurs who care
      > primarily about eating edibles and not eating poisonous mushrooms.
      Do
      > not eat any Destroying Angels, Death Caps or Deadly Galerinas. Eat
      > Meadow Mushrooms, Hens and Chickens.
      > > Since Candy Cap can refer to three or more distinct but
      > related mushrooms I can't offer you a name that fits any
      > preconception you might have except....Candy Cap. [:>}....
      > > Even though everything I've just written is true to the best of
      > my understanding I'm just kidding with you...I know what you mean
      > about those XY&%*XX name changes....they force us to keep on
      learning.
      > >
      > Respectfully
      > >
      > >
      > Bill Yule
      > > Connecticut Valley
      > Mycological Society.
      > >
      > > PS: On a serious note there are Galerinas that have a similar
      > smell and appearence so maybe it's a good idea to learn scientific
      > names. Even if you are mostly interested in edibles.
      > >
      > > "dickiephyls@ " <dickiephyls@ > wrote:
      > > Lactarius fragilus??? C'mon, this has to be a new name.
      > Got one an old man would recognize? I don't subscribe to new names.
      A
      > mushroom is a mushroom, is a mushroom. Changing names , that I
      klnow
      > of, never altered the toxicity of any mushroom. Constant name
      > changing is the plague of amateur mycology!
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > "For those who hunger after the earthly excrescences called
      > mushrooms."
      > >
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      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > "For those who hunger after the earthly excrescences called
      mushrooms."
      >
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      >




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    • dickiephyls@netzero.net
      Bill, Hopefully I didn t offend you, That s never been my demeanor. Certainly a discussion of mycological debate is well in order in a mycological atmosphere,
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 1, 2007
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        Bill, Hopefully I didn't offend you, That's never been my demeanor. Certainly a discussion of mycological debate is well in order in a mycological atmosphere, It beats a who's who discussion and near name calling about computer expertise. That argument belongs in a computer atmosphere. Actually I'm not a common name buff...the confusion over "candy caps" expedites territorial confusion, just as you said. I was brought up on Latin names back in the early fifties. There was no one out there to help me, and I was forced to go it alone. All the books embraced Latin terminology. Kaufman's Agaricaceae of Michigan became my bible (and I still refer to it often...old names now, but the same shroom) I finally developed a library of over fifty volumes on mushrooms. I became friends with all of the Latin names of the era. After knocking my butt off learning these names professional people began to invade my territory with new ones...God, would  have to do this all over again? I went along with this fiasco for several years and still embrace it to some extent, but, enough is enough. You can't teach an old dog new tricks(especially if he's bullheaded and don't want to accept them.) Now, when I read foray lists, I wonder who all of these mushrooms are? The frustration being that I know they are all old friends but are now incognito. The NAMA organization was organized during Lyndon Johnson's administration as a "People to People" project to educate the masses in different fields of interest. NAMA (National Amateur Mycological Assoc.) was designed to further the knowledge of the fungus to those interested. Notice the word ,"Mycological"; that doesn't read, "Mushrooming", so it was designed to be a scientific group. thus I think the answer is obvious. it remains...did the mushroomers invade the mycologists or visa versa. I think, however, that local and state clubs are a different story, and that's where my gripe lies. These groups are mostly "pot hunters" (I hate that name... are these searchers of marijuana or those seeking a place to go to the bathroom) there must be a better name out there somewhere. And so, to my way of thinking, the whole dilemma is simply a conflict of interests. Sheep herders or cattlemen. It all depends on your desire. And the mycological - mushroom range war will no doubt persist forever!   Keep in touch...Dick.

      • dickiephyls@netzero.net
        Here, here, Big John. As the home- brew beer said to the particles in the bottom of the glass... My very sediments Dick.
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 1, 2007
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          Here, here, Big John. As the home- brew beer said to the particles in the bottom of the glass..."My very sediments" Dick.
        • Boletebill
          I am in no way offended...I like civil discussions and friendly banter and any conversation about fungi, mushrooms. I respect others opinions and I expect that
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 1, 2007
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            I am in no way offended...I like civil discussions and friendly banter and any conversation about fungi, mushrooms. I respect others opinions and I expect that they respect mine.
             
            How about "Wild mushroom hunter-gatherers" instead of pot-hunters?
             
            I too use all three of my Kauffman volumes...they are intelligent well written guides that still work.
             
                                     Bill Yule

            "dickiephyls@..." <dickiephyls@...> wrote:
            Bill, Hopefully I didn't offend you, That's never been my demeanor. Certainly a discussion of mycological debate is well in order in a mycological atmosphere, It beats a who's who discussion and near name calling about computer expertise. That argument belongs in a computer atmosphere. Actually I'm not a common name buff...the confusion over "candy caps" expedites territorial confusion, just as you said. I was brought up on Latin names back in the early fifties. There was no one out there to help me, and I was forced to go it alone. All the books embraced Latin terminology. Kaufman's Agaricaceae of Michigan became my bible (and I still refer to it often...old names now, but the same shroom) I finally developed a library of over fifty volumes on mushrooms. I became friends with all of the Latin names of the era. After knocking my butt off learning these names professional people began to invade my territory with new ones...God, would  have to do this all over again? I went along with this fiasco for several years and still embrace it to some extent, but, enough is enough. You can't teach an old dog new tricks(especially if he's bullheaded and don't want to accept them.) Now, when I read foray lists, I wonder who all of these mushrooms are? The frustration being that I know they are all old friends but are now incognito. The NAMA organization was organized during Lyndon Johnson's administration as a "People to People" project to educate the masses in different fields of interest. NAMA (National Amateur Mycological Assoc.) was designed to further the knowledge of the fungus to those interested. Notice the word ,"Mycological" ; that doesn't read, "Mushrooming" , so it was designed to be a scientific group. thus I think the answer is obvious. it remains...did the mushroomers invade the mycologists or visa versa. I think, however, that local and state clubs are a different story, and that's where my gripe lies. These groups are mostly "pot hunters" (I hate that name... are these searchers of marijuana or those seeking a place to go to the bathroom) there must be a better name out there somewhere. And so, to my way of thinking, the whole dilemma is simply a conflict of interests. Sheep herders or cattlemen. It all depends on your desire. And the mycological - mushroom range war will no doubt persist forever!   Keep in touch...Dick.



            "For those who hunger after the earthly excrescences called mushrooms."


            Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now.

          • dickiephyls@netzero.net
            Wild mushroom hunter-gatherers ? Sorry, at 80 I can t say that all in one breath! Keep in touch, Dic k
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 2, 2007
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              Wild mushroom hunter-gatherers ? Sorry, at 80 I can't say that all in one breath! Keep in touch, Dic k
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