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Particle for idiomatic expressions

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  • lingwadeplaneta
    I m trying to translate the expression to stand in one s way . Although it s similar in many languages including Hindi and Russian (only, it s to stand
    Message 1 of 6 , Feb 13, 2010
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      I'm trying to translate the expression "to stand in one's way". Although it's similar in many languages including Hindi and Russian (only, it's "to stand across one's road"), still it's an idiomatic expression. Maybe it's a good idea to have a special marker, which would mean roughly "attention! What follows is an idiomatic expression that shouldn't be taken literally. Hope you get it; if not, feel free to ask or find a detailed explanation in a special dictionary".

      I'd take for such a particle smth close to "kwasi" ("as it were, as if"), with a slight modification, say "kwasu".

      Dmitry
    • cafaristeir
      Hao dey kare Dmitry ! I think the problem is that the speaker may not be aware he s using an idiotism. It s not as obvious when, for example, someone quotes a
      Message 2 of 6 , Feb 13, 2010
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        Hao dey kare Dmitry !

        I think the problem is that the speaker may not be aware he's using an idiotism. It's not as obvious when, for example, someone quotes a Latin phrase.
        I said sometimes, when giving an appointment : "entre midi" = "between noon". This is understood in Lorraine, especially in the north and means "between 12 and 14 o'clock" but other people did not understand this, and I did not understand why they did not understand, since this expression sounds French...
        It exists in Mosel Franconian (zwéschen Métdach) but not in Standard German...

        So, this does not solve really the problem; if the speaker is aware of this idiotism, he'll either try to avoid it, or will add: "as we say in my country..."

        Olivier
        http://sambahsa.pbworks.com/

        --- In worldlanglist@yahoogroups.com, "lingwadeplaneta" <lingwadeplaneta@...> wrote:
        >
        > I'm trying to translate the expression "to stand in one's way". Although it's similar in many languages including Hindi and Russian (only, it's "to stand across one's road"), still it's an idiomatic expression. Maybe it's a good idea to have a special marker, which would mean roughly "attention! What follows is an idiomatic expression that shouldn't be taken literally. Hope you get it; if not, feel free to ask or find a detailed explanation in a special dictionary".
        >
        > I'd take for such a particle smth close to "kwasi" ("as it were, as if"), with a slight modification, say "kwasu".
        >
        > Dmitry
        >
      • <deinx nxtxr>
        ... to hinder
        Message 3 of 6 , Feb 13, 2010
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          lingwadeplaneta wrote:
          > I'm trying to translate the expression "to stand in one's way".
          > Although it's similar in many languages including Hindi and Russian
          > (only, it's "to stand across one's road"), still it's an idiomatic
          > expression. Maybe it's a good idea to have a special marker, which
          > would mean roughly "attention! What follows is an idiomatic
          > expression that shouldn't be taken literally. Hope you get it; if
          > not, feel free to ask or find a detailed explanation in a special
          > dictionary".

          "to hinder"
        • Jens Wilkinson
          ... I basically agree with Olivier here. I don t think people will generally use a marker even if it exists, because in many cases they won t remember that
          Message 4 of 6 , Feb 15, 2010
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            --- On Sat, 2/13/10, cafaristeir <cafaristeir@...> wrote:

            >
            > So, this does not solve really the problem; if the speaker
            > is aware of this idiotism, he'll either try to avoid it, or
            > will add: "as we say in my country..."
            >

            I basically agree with Olivier here. I don't think people will generally use a marker even if it exists, because in many cases they won't remember that something is an idiom. I think it's sufficient to have a word that means "idiom," and to say, "this is an idiom, but . . ."

            Another thing is that in many cases, I think people will avoid using idioms in foreign languages. For example, in my language, "pulling one's leg" means "telling a lie," but in Japanese, "pulling one's leg" means "obstructing" or "preventing someone from doing something." But I would never think of translating "pull my leg" from English to Japanese, because I basically realize it's an idiom and would be afraid of using it without consulting a dictionary to make sure it's the same. Or as another example, we say "piece of cake" in English to mean "easy," but I would never try using that in a foreign language because I'm almost certain it will not translate into probably any other language!

            So you see, generally I will avoid using idioms. If I do use idioms, it's because I don't realize they are idioms, so I wouldn't use a marker. It's a "Catch 22" situation as we say (idiomatically) in English. :)
          • risto@kupsala.net
            I agree with Olivier and Jens. It seems that people know intuitively that idioms don t translate word to word. Really! I m not pulling your nose, as we say in
            Message 5 of 6 , Feb 15, 2010
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              I agree with Olivier and Jens. It seems that people know intuitively that
              idioms don't translate word to word. Really! I'm not pulling your nose, as
              we say in my country. ;-)

              Risto
            • lingwadeplaneta
              ... in R: like to piss over 2 fingers ... As I can see now myself, it s like to give to drink (=there s no doubt about that).
              Message 6 of 6 , Feb 15, 2010
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                --- In worldlanglist@yahoogroups.com, Jens Wilkinson <jowilkinson4@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > --- On Sat, 2/13/10, cafaristeir <cafaristeir@...> wrote:
                >
                > >
                > > So, this does not solve really the problem; if the speaker
                > > is aware of this idiotism, he'll either try to avoid it, or
                > > will add: "as we say in my country..."
                > >
                >
                > I basically agree with Olivier here. I don't think people will generally use a marker even if it exists, because in many cases they won't remember that something is an idiom. I think it's sufficient to have a word that means "idiom," and to say, "this is an idiom, but . . ."
                >
                > Another thing is that in many cases, I think people will avoid using idioms in foreign languages. For example, in my language, "pulling one's leg" means "telling a lie," but in Japanese, "pulling one's leg" means "obstructing" or "preventing someone from doing something." But I would never think of translating "pull my leg" from English to Japanese, because I basically realize it's an idiom and would be afraid of using it without consulting a dictionary to make sure it's the same. Or as another example, we say "piece of cake" in English to mean "easy,"

                in R: like to piss over 2 fingers

                > but I would never try using that in a foreign language because I'm almost certain it will not translate into probably any other language!
                >
                > So you see, generally I will avoid using idioms. If I do use idioms, it's because I don't realize they are idioms, so I wouldn't use a marker. It's a "Catch 22" situation as we say (idiomatically) in English. :)
                >

                As I can see now myself, it's like to give to drink (=there's no doubt about that).
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