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Mipela na papa

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  • Dmitri Ivanov
    The first line of Pater Noster in worldlangs: Mipela na papa, ta po sama. Cinau iu mofolo, kua tu neb. Meban di pa ja in ten. Nuy patra, kel es pa swarga.
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 5, 2009
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      The first line of "Pater Noster" in worldlangs:

      Mipela na papa, ta po sama.

      Cinau iu mofolo, kua tu neb.

      Meban di pa ja in ten.

      Nuy patra, kel es pa swarga.

      Pater noster in warwn.

      Corrections are welcome.
    • <deinx nxtxr>
      ... papa iu mofolo kua dom tu li paradis father of I+you+they that reside at (name) Heaven No caps. No colons. neb means sky, not heaven which is
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 5, 2009
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        Dmitri Ivanov wrote:
        > The first line of "Pater Noster" in worldlangs:
        >
        > Mipela na papa, ta po sama.
        >
        > Cinau iu mofolo, kua tu neb.
        >
        > Meban di pa ja in ten.
        >
        > Nuy patra, kel es pa swarga.
        >
        > Pater noster in warwn.
        >
        > Corrections are welcome.

        "papa iu mofolo kua dom tu li paradis"
        father of I+you+they that reside at (name) Heaven


        No caps.

        No colons.

        "neb" means sky, not "heaven" which is "paradis", a proper noun.

        Inserted "dom" (=to reside/dwell/live)

        I did have this posted once already along with the UDHR. I'll put
        the sample texts in the next update of the PDF.
      • Dmitri Ivanov
        ... No commas. No periods. No letters. Hand Alphabet only. (no seriousness) ... Why proper noun? Wouldn t it be more correct to reserve proper names for
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 5, 2009
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          --- In worldlanglist@yahoogroups.com, "<deinx nxtxr>" <deinx.nxtxr@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dmitri Ivanov wrote:
          > > The first line of "Pater Noster" in worldlangs:
          > >
          > > Mipela na papa, ta po sama.
          > >
          > > Cinau iu mofolo, kua tu neb.
          > >
          > > Meban di pa ja in ten.
          > >
          > > Nuy patra, kel es pa swarga.
          > >
          > > Pater noster in warwn.
          > >
          > > Corrections are welcome.
          >
          > "papa iu mofolo kua dom tu li paradis"
          > father of I+you+they that reside at (name) Heaven
          >
          >
          > No caps.
          >
          > No colons.

          No commas.

          No periods.

          No letters.

          Hand Alphabet only.

          (no seriousness)


          > "neb" means sky, not "heaven" which is "paradis", a proper noun.

          Why proper noun? Wouldn't it be more correct to reserve proper names for various versions of paradise: Elysian fields, Valhalla etc.
        • steve rice
          From: Dmitri Ivanov lingwadeplaneta@yahoo.com ... I get it: this is another daft hats joke. Well I say the gloves are off too.   ... I ll agree with Dmitri
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 5, 2009
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            From: Dmitri Ivanov lingwadeplaneta@...

            --- In worldlanglist@yahoogroups.com, "<deinx nxtxr>" <deinx.nxtxr@...> wrote:
            >
            >> No caps.

            I get it: this is another "daft hats" joke. Well I say the gloves are off too.
             
            >> "neb" means sky, not "heaven" which is "paradis", a proper noun.

            >Why proper noun? Wouldn't it be more correct to reserve proper names for various versions of paradise: Elysian fields, Valhalla etc.

            I'll agree with Dmitri here: neither Greek nor Hebrew made the distinction lexically. It's clear from texts that they were aware of the distinction, but Heb shamayim and Greek ouranos can refer to anything from the sky up. So for my Inlis rendering, I begin with

            O wi foda in skai

            though I'll also have "heven" in the more advanced vocabulary.

            Steve
          • Risto Kupsala
            ... That s fine, except there should be na in place of in . Another possiblity: me-ban di ten na di pa-pa I am uncertain about ten (sky) and pa
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 5, 2009
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              Dmitri Ivanov kirjoitti:
              > The first line of "Pater Noster" in worldlangs:
              >
              > Mipela na papa, ta po sama.
              >
              > Cinau iu mofolo, kua tu neb.
              >
              > Meban di pa ja in ten.
              >

              That's fine, except there should be "na" in place of "in". Another
              possiblity:
              me-ban di ten na di pa-pa

              I am uncertain about "ten" (sky) and "pa" (father). I think it should be
              gender-neutral, but then again, Jesus called him dad because he
              obviously had a mother. Also he lived long before Juri Gagarin, who
              actually went there, so his ignorance about the sky can be forgiven. ;-)

              > Nuy patra, kel es pa swarga.
              >
              > Pater noster in warwn.
              >
              > Corrections are welcome.
              >

              --
              Risto Kupsala
            • <deinx nxtxr>
              ... Heaven is not the same as sky though. In religious reference it s place that exists outside the realm of the physical universe as we know it. To us
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 5, 2009
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                steve rice wrote:

                >> Why proper noun? Wouldn't it be more correct to reserve proper
                >> names for various versions of paradise: Elysian fields,
                >> Valhalla etc.
                >
                > I'll agree with Dmitri here: neither Greek nor Hebrew made the
                > distinction lexically. It's clear from texts that they were aware
                > of the distinction, but Heb shamayim and Greek ouranos can refer
                > to anything from the sky up. So for my Inlis rendering, I begin
                > with
                >
                > O wi foda in skai
                >
                > though I'll also have "heven" in the more advanced vocabulary.

                "Heaven" is not the same as "sky" though. In religious reference
                it's "place" that exists outside the realm of the physical universe
                as we know it. To us non-believers it's just another myth. In
                either case it isn't the sky, the cosmos or really a "place" except
                metaphorically.
              • <deinx nxtxr>
                ... Actually I need to correct the correction because this sould have been introduced with the vocative marker o papa ... ... There are periods to mark the
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 5, 2009
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                  Dmitri Ivanov wrote:
                  > --- In worldlanglist@yahoogroups.com, "<deinx nxtxr>"
                  > <deinx.nxtxr@...> wrote:
                  >> Dmitri Ivanov wrote:
                  >>> The first line of "Pater Noster" in worldlangs:
                  >>>
                  >>> Mipela na papa, ta po sama.
                  >>>
                  >>> Cinau iu mofolo, kua tu neb.
                  >>>
                  >>> Meban di pa ja in ten.
                  >>>
                  >>> Nuy patra, kel es pa swarga.
                  >>>
                  >>> Pater noster in warwn.
                  >>>
                  >>> Corrections are welcome.
                  >> "papa iu mofolo kua dom tu li paradis" father of I+you+they
                  >> that reside at (name) Heaven

                  Actually I need to correct the correction because this sould have
                  been introduced with the vocative marker "o papa ..."


                  >> No caps.
                  >>
                  >> No colons.
                  >
                  > No commas.
                  >
                  > No periods.
                  >
                  > No letters.
                  >
                  > Hand Alphabet only.
                  >
                  > (no seriousness)

                  There are periods to mark the end of a sentence but commas aren't
                  used like in S:S: because there are already conjunctions to
                  coordinate pieces of a sentence. The S:S: comma is used like a
                  decimal point, and also to separate dates, times or similar numbers.
                • steve rice
                  ... From: deinx.nxtxr@sasxsek.org ... It s the same word in most languages I m aware of, and while Inlis is supposed to look like English and
                  Message 8 of 10 , Aug 5, 2009
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                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: "<deinx nxtxr>" deinx.nxtxr@...

                    steve rice wrote:

                    >>> Why proper noun? Wouldn't it be more correct to reserve proper
                    >>> names for various versions of paradise: Elysian fields,
                    >>> Valhalla etc.
                    >
                    >> I'll agree with Dmitri here: neither Greek nor Hebrew made the
                    >> distinction lexically. It's clear from texts that they were aware
                    >> of the distinction, but Heb shamayim and Greek ouranos can refer
                    >> to anything from the sky up. So for my Inlis rendering, I begin
                    >> with
                    >
                    >> O wi foda in skai
                    >
                    >> though I'll also have "heven" in the more advanced vocabulary.

                    >"Heaven" is not the same as "sky" though. 

                    It's the same word in most languages I'm aware of, and while Inlis is supposed to look like English and have some at-sight intelligibility for English-speakers, it isn't English. So I'll probably follow more usual conventions here, leaving the English-language distinction for more advanced vocabulary. Those who wish to be picky may always use god-ples (as distinct from god-haus, a temple or shrine).

                    >In religious reference
                    >it's "place" that exists outside the realm of the physical universe
                    >as we know it.  To us non-believers it's just another myth.  In
                    >either case it isn't the sky, the cosmos or really a "place" except
                    >metaphorically.

                    But all language is metaphorical; why be bothered about it here? The way the image arose was the old division of the world: the "earth" (the world around us) is where known phenomena occur; the "sea"/"abyss"/"underworld" (the world below) is where the scary stuff is, and the "sky" (the world above us) is where better things are--gods, stars, and so on. Because the biblical God is neither earthly (no Olympus, Zaphon, etc.) nor chthonic, he must be associated with the sky. Moreover, the most important god in most pantheons is a storm god: he sends life-giving rain and destructive storms and floods. The association with the sky is clear.

                    Now, it is true that theologically "Heaven" is distinct from the physical realm. Unfortunately even many Christians assume the primacy of the physical, though, and I've known some who were actually willing to "locate" Heaven, the New Jerusalem, or something of the sort in some corner of the universe. I doubt I can correct that misunderstanding, and it isn't the task of the lexicon to do so either.

                    Steve
                  • Jens Wilkinson
                    ... Just to add a tiny bit to what Steve wrote, it s a little complicated in Chinese and Japanese. First, in Chinese, there are two words, pronounced tian
                    Message 9 of 10 , Aug 5, 2009
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                      -- On Thu, 8/6/09, <deinx nxtxr> <deinx.nxtxr@...> wrote:

                      >
                      > "Heaven" is not the same as "sky" though.  In
                      > religious reference
                      > it's "place" that exists outside the realm of the physical
                      > universe
                      > as we know it. 
                      >

                      Just to add a tiny bit to what Steve wrote, it's a little complicated in Chinese and Japanese. First, in Chinese, there are two words, pronounced "tian" and "kong" in modern Mandarin. The word "tian" is generally taken to mean "heaven," and also means "god". So when they say "the son of heaven," it is that character. Then the word "kong" means "sky," but it actually means "emptiness." So typically in Chinese, "tian" is used to mean "heaven," while both characters, i.e. tiankong, is used to mean the sky.

                      In Japanese there is a word "sora" that means sky, and then a word "ama" that means "heaven," but which etymologically is related to rain (ame). Ama is not used to mean a specific place, but rather "the heavens," because the name of the Milky Way in Japanese is "ama no kawa," or "the heavenly river."

                      I believe that the distinction is not an important one. "the father above" seems sufficient to me.

                      Jens Wilkinson
                      Neo Patwa language: http://patwa.pbwiki.com
                    • Jens Wilkinson
                      ... It s not your fault, but I ve changed some things so would want to retranslate this. Mi-saba no papa, po anda nuwa. (our father, that sit above) Jens
                      Message 10 of 10 , Aug 5, 2009
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                        --- On Wed, 8/5/09, Dmitri Ivanov <lingwadeplaneta@...> wrote:

                        >
                        > Mipela na papa, ta po sama.
                        >

                        It's not your fault, but I've changed some things so would want to retranslate this.

                        Mi-saba no papa, po anda nuwa.
                        (our father, that sit above)

                        Jens Wilkinson
                        Neo Patwa language: http://patwa.pbwiki.com
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