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Re: [worldlanglist] Re: Netlang

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  • Stephen Rice
    ... Berendt isn t really worth investigating; it was just a relex of English into numbers--a code, in other words. It was devised by a man of the same name in
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 25, 2013
      On 7/24/13, orangev58 <orangev58@...> wrote:

      > Also, do you have any information on Berendt? I can't find anything on it,
      > or on any auxlang that used numbers.

      Berendt isn't really worth investigating; it was just a relex of
      English into numbers--a code, in other words. It was devised by a man
      of the same name in the 1960s who was apparently undergoing a midlife
      crisis. For more info:

      http://ial.wikia.com/wiki/Berendt

      There's also a reference on that site to Ao/Reformed Ao, though it
      doesn't say much.

      The music-based auxlang Solresol could be written numerically.

      In _One Language for the World_ (pp 145-146), Mario Pei writes,

      "Yet the a priori idea continues to crop up in curious ways. We have,
      for instance, a purely numerical language, conceived by a Berlin
      architect, and presented in 1921 under the name of Timerio, after its
      creator, Tiemer [some sources have "Thiemer"]. Basing himself upon
      numerical 'languages" of limited application, like Dewey's decimal
      classification of books for libraries, Herr Tiemer offers such
      combinations as 1-80-17 for "I love you." Peano, inventor of Latino
      Sine Flexione, had already presented a scheme for use in mathematical
      treatises, in which conventional signs of international application
      replace the majority of words. Gibson's Code, devised by a Coast
      Artillery officer, uses numbers, with the proviso that nouns must
      start with 1, 2, or 3, verbs with 4, adjectives with 5, adverbs with
      6, pronouns with 7, conjunctions with 8, prepositions with 9. With
      verbs, -10, -20, and -30 are used as "suffixes" to denote present,
      past, and future. "The boy eats the red apple" comes out as
      "5-111-409-10-5-516-2013." [Note that this is thus the Year of the
      Apple.] But such schemes, needless to say, could at the most replace
      only the written language, and would have no application in speech; to
      this extent, they are continuators of the systems devised by the
      medieval and Renaissance polygraphists rather than true constructed
      languages. Also, they require the syntax or word-arrangement of a
      specific language; Gibson's 5 for "the" would be unnecessary and
      perhaps incomprehensible to a Russian speaker, since Russian uses no
      articles. In final analysis, they become numerical codes for specific
      spoken tongues."

      Steve
    • rkupsala
      ... That book tells that almost every kind of imaginable language has been made, tested and tried in the auxlang scene. Netlang reminds me of a pictographic
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 26, 2013
        Steve Rice wrote:
        > In _One Language for the World_ (pp 145-146), Mario Pei writes

        That book tells that almost every kind of imaginable language has been
        made, tested and tried in the auxlang scene.

        Netlang reminds me of a pictographic language, you know, if you replaced
        numbers with images. Just today I found one pictographic language called
        Earthlang. See http://www.earthlanguage.org/english/briefsys.htm
        It resembles Netlang. It even has "Free word order between the
        subject/verb/object in a sentence" and the grammatical markers look like
        punctuation signs!

        So it's advisable to check out some existing pictographic and a-priori
        languages. There is always something new to learn.

        Personally I am in favor of spoken languages. I have made (still making) a
        language called Pandunia together with Jens. Basically you could replace
        Pandunia's words with symbols, images or numerical sequences because every
        word is unchanging. I just haven't seen any reason to do so. It is more
        pleasant to speak words, you know.

        Best regards,
        Risto Kupsala
      • orangev58
        ... Yeah I had a look at Pandunia, I like how clean it is. The problem I have with spoken languages is that we don t really speak to anyone. The only real
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 26, 2013
          > Personally I am in favor of spoken languages. I have made (still making) a
          > language called Pandunia together with Jens.

          Yeah I had a look at Pandunia, I like how clean it is.

          The problem I have with spoken languages is that we don't really speak to anyone. The only real device we have to communicate to the whole world is the internet, and it's almost entirely text.

          The internet affords us the ability to use a language without even fully understanding it. With strict grammar very simple software could construct sentences for us.

          > It is more pleasant to speak words, you know.

          I do agree with you. But I feel the auxlang problem is a practical problem. It's not about art, or pleasure or personal preference. It's about what is the simplest, most efficient way we can communicate ideas to the most number of people with the minimum misunderstanding.
        • Jens Wilkinson
          ... I think that depends a bit on who you are. I work in a fairly international place, so I end up talking to people from a range of backgrounds, mostly
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 26, 2013
            On 2013/07/27, at 12:18, "orangev58" <orangev58@...> wrote:

            >
            > The problem I have with spoken languages is that we don't really speak to anyone. The only real device we have to communicate to the whole world is the internet, and it's almost entirely text.
            >
            I think that depends a bit on who you are. I work in a fairly international place, so I end up talking to people from a range of backgrounds, mostly Japanese but from around the world. We mostly speak in English because it's the default. So for me at least it's a practical issue.

            Jens
          • Stephen Rice
            ... Risto dusts and disinfects it daily. He s a tidy guy. ... But that s changing. Podcasts, Skype, and YouTube (and similar sites) are bringing an audio and
            Message 5 of 16 , Jul 27, 2013
              On 7/26/13, orangev58 <orangev58@...> wrote:
              >> Personally I am in favor of spoken languages. I have made (still making)
              >> a
              >> language called Pandunia together with Jens.
              >
              > Yeah I had a look at Pandunia, I like how clean it is.

              Risto dusts and disinfects it daily. He's a tidy guy.

              > The problem I have with spoken languages is that we don't really speak to
              > anyone. The only real device we have to communicate to the whole world is
              > the internet, and it's almost entirely text.

              But that's changing. Podcasts, Skype, and YouTube (and similar sites)
              are bringing an audio and even visual element to internet
              communication. Various auxlangs are already active in these areas,
              though currently the only worldlang with much of an audio-visual
              presence is LdP.

              > The internet affords us the ability to use a language without even fully
              > understanding it.

              Stupidity can have the same effect. I've seen people trying to use
              auxlangs they didn't understand--I've done it myself--and the result
              often isn't useful. Curiously, Esperanto, frequently dismissed as too
              complicated, withstands such abuse better than "simpler" languages
              such as LdP and Pandunia.

              With strict grammar very simple software could construct
              > sentences for us.

              If you want to be technical, you don't need an auxlang at all, then:
              use simple grammar, reasonably unambiguous words--and something like
              Google Translate.

              >> It is more pleasant to speak words, you know.
              >
              > I do agree with you. But I feel the auxlang problem is a practical problem.
              > It's not about art, or pleasure or personal preference. It's about what is
              > the simplest, most efficient way we can communicate ideas to the most number
              > of people with the minimum misunderstanding.

              Needs vary. Tourists have different needs than scholars (and scholar
              differs from scholar according to the specific field of study),
              businesspeople and journalists have unique needs, and so on. Some can
              get by with a kind of phrasebook; others need something more complex.
              Depending on the language's structure, a basic version for limited
              needs could be set up. Probably most people who need an auxlang at all
              could get by with a kind of phrasebook; only scholars are likely to
              need more.

              Steve
            • Dana Nutter
              Why am I on this list? I cancelled all my groups and closed my Yahoo account years ago.
              Message 6 of 16 , Aug 18, 2013
                Why am I on this list? I cancelled all my groups and closed my Yahoo
                account years ago.
              • Risto Kupsala
                ... You must have subscribed with email only. Send email to worldlanglist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com. You will receive a confirmation message, reply that
                Message 7 of 16 , Aug 18, 2013
                  18.8.2013 16:12, Dana Nutter wrote:
                  > Why am I on this list? I cancelled all my groups and closed my Yahoo
                  > account years ago.

                  You must have subscribed with email only. Send email to
                  worldlanglist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com. You will receive a
                  confirmation message, reply that email and then you will be out of here.

                  This group has been quiet for over a year but you used to be active here
                  a few years ago.

                  --Risto
                • Dana Nutter
                  ... Sorry didn t mean anything personal. One of the reasons I gave up on Yahoo were all the bugs and associated privacy leaks. Likewise why I gave up
                  Message 8 of 16 , Aug 25, 2013
                    On 8/18/13 2:57 PM, Risto Kupsala wrote:
                    > 18.8.2013 16:12, Dana Nutter wrote:
                    >> Why am I on this list? I cancelled all my groups and closed my Yahoo
                    >> account years ago.
                    >
                    > You must have subscribed with email only. Send email to
                    > worldlanglist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com. You will receive a
                    > confirmation message, reply that email and then you will be out of here.
                    >
                    > This group has been quiet for over a year but you used to be active here
                    > a few years ago.
                    >
                    > --Risto
                    >

                    Sorry didn't mean anything personal. One of the reasons I gave up on
                    Yahoo were all the bugs and associated privacy leaks. Likewise why I
                    gave up Fakebook, Google and all the rest.



                    --
                    ♂ Dana Nutter
                    dana.nutter@...
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