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Veltparl and the worldlang seed

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  • Risto Kupsala
    From Mario Pei s One Language for the World: Wilhelm von Arnim s Veltparl of 1896 introduces the novel idea of applying declension not to the noun, but to the
    Message 1 of 10 , May 3, 2011
      From Mario Pei's One Language for the World:
      Wilhelm von Arnim's Veltparl of 1896 introduces the novel idea of
      applying declension not to the noun, but to the article that precedes
      it, so that we have 'el dog' ("the dog"); 'ela dog' ("of the dog"); 'ele
      dog' ("to the dog"); 'eli dog' ("the dog," object). Plurality, however,
      is indicated in the noun; all the above forms are made plural by
      changing 'dog' to 'dogy'. In vocabulary, Veltparl distinguishes itself
      from its sister mixed languages, to the extent that it offers some
      measure of proportional representation to nonwestern tongues; "garden"
      and "fire", for example, are 'kert' and 'tys', taken from Hungarian;
      "apple" is the Hindustani 'seb'; "eight" is the Vietnamese 'tam'. It is
      of interest to note that the comment of Couturat and Léau, made in the
      year 1903, to this attempt to give broader internationality to the
      international language runs: "Such fantasies show absolute indifference
      in connection with internationality."

      Judging from this fragment, Veltparl could be the earliest auxlang that
      was a worldlang.

      Reading auxlang history from Pei and others has revealed me that the
      worldlang seed has been present since the beginning of auxlanging.
      Faiguet's Langue Nouvelle, the Eurolang prototype, was inspired by a
      speech of father Lami, where he proposed making a regularized grammar
      and using the language of Tartars/Mongols as the model. So the lineage
      of synthetic/agglutinative Eurolangs were originally influenced by
      Oriental languages, in this case the Altaic languages, which have very
      regular agglutinative grammars.

      Also isolating/analytical auxlangs have their roots in the Orient.
      Gottfried Leibniz's "Rational Latin" and Characteristica Universalis
      were influenced by the isolating grammar of Chinese. In this lineage the
      Oriental influence was later acknowledged by Giuseppe Peano (who
      completed Leibniz's work with Latino sine Flexione), Lancelot Hogben and
      others.

      --
      Risto Kupsala
    • cafaristeir
      Sellamat Risto ! ... Just like Sambahsa...: is kwaun, ios kwaun, ei kwaun, iom kwaun. ... However, Faiguet doesn t tell this explicitly. He seems rather
      Message 2 of 10 , May 3, 2011
        Sellamat Risto !

        > Wilhelm von Arnim's Veltparl of 1896 introduces the novel idea of
        > applying declension not to the noun, but to the article that precedes
        > it, so that we have 'el dog' ("the dog"); 'ela dog' ("of the dog"); 'ele
        > dog' ("to the dog"); 'eli dog' ("the dog," object).

        Just like Sambahsa...: is kwaun, ios kwaun, ei kwaun, iom kwaun.



        > worldlang seed has been present since the beginning of auxlanging.
        > Faiguet's Langue Nouvelle, the Eurolang prototype, was inspired by a
        > speech of father Lami, where he proposed making a regularized grammar
        > and using the language of Tartars/Mongols as the model.

        However, Faiguet doesn't tell this explicitly. He seems rather influenced by philosophical considerations for the grammar and, for the vocabulary, he says expressis verbis he takes his inspiration from simplified French. Faiguet's invention has had a notable influence on Esperanto.


        > Gottfried Leibniz's "Rational Latin" and Characteristica Universalis
        > were influenced by the isolating grammar of Chinese. In this lineage the
        > Oriental influence was later acknowledged by Giuseppe Peano (who
        > completed Leibniz's work with Latino sine Flexione),

        That may be true for Peano, but I'm less sure for Leibnitz. Their major source of inspiration were the logics of mathematics, since they both were famous mathematicians.

        By the way, off topic : Do you know if someone has invented a reconstructed Finno-Ugric ? (Much like "Europaio" for Proto-Indo-European). From time to time, I am working on a grammar of PIE (more readable than Europaio) and I wonder if the same exists for Finno-Ugric, since it may share with PIE a common ancestry.

        Olivier
        http://sambahsa.pbworks.com/
      • risto@kupsala.net
        Hello Olivier, ... Leibniz was influenced by Chinese and he acknowledged it. So did Francis Bacon and Jean Douet before him, when they proposed universal
        Message 3 of 10 , May 4, 2011
          Hello Olivier,
          >> Gottfried Leibniz's "Rational Latin" and Characteristica Universalis
          >> were influenced by the isolating grammar of Chinese. In this lineage the
          >> Oriental influence was later acknowledged by Giuseppe Peano (who
          >> completed Leibniz's work with Latino sine Flexione),
          >
          > That may be true for Peano, but I'm less sure for Leibnitz. Their major
          > source of inspiration were the logics of mathematics, since they both were
          > famous mathematicians.

          Leibniz was influenced by Chinese and he acknowledged it. So did Francis
          Bacon and Jean Douet before him, when they proposed universal languages or
          writing systems in the 1600s. Probably Leibniz didn't know Chinese well,
          but he must have known the principle of isolating script and grammar.

          > By the way, off topic : Do you know if someone has invented a
          > reconstructed Finno-Ugric ? (Much like "Europaio" for
          > Proto-Indo-European). From time to time, I am working on a grammar of PIE
          > (more readable than Europaio) and I wonder if the same exists for
          > Finno-Ugric, since it may share with PIE a common ancestry.

          There are several reconstructions of proto Finno-Ugric, which disagree. I
          have seen some samples only. But there is no other Finno-Ugric constructed
          languages than Budinos, which is based on modern languages and Esperanto.
          I have partly sketched my own Finno-Ugric auxlang, which used also proto
          FU as a source. It's not published yet.

          -- Risto
        • Stephen Rice
          ... They weren t going by real Chinese but the hype about Chinese. Jespersen wrote in _An International Language_ that Peano thought Chinese grammar meant no
          Message 4 of 10 , May 4, 2011
            On 5/4/11, risto@... <risto@...> wrote:
            > Hello Olivier,
            >>> Gottfried Leibniz's "Rational Latin" and Characteristica Universalis
            >>> were influenced by the isolating grammar of Chinese. In this lineage the
            >>> Oriental influence was later acknowledged by Giuseppe Peano (who
            >>> completed Leibniz's work with Latino sine Flexione),
            >>
            >> That may be true for Peano, but I'm less sure for Leibnitz. Their major
            >> source of inspiration were the logics of mathematics, since they both were
            >> famous mathematicians.
            >
            > Leibniz was influenced by Chinese and he acknowledged it. So did Francis
            > Bacon and Jean Douet before him, when they proposed universal languages or
            > writing systems in the 1600s. Probably Leibniz didn't know Chinese well,
            > but he must have known the principle of isolating script and grammar.

            They weren't going by real Chinese but the hype about Chinese.
            Jespersen wrote in _An International Language_ that Peano thought
            Chinese grammar meant no grammar at all. If you're used to at least
            moderately inflected languages such as Italian or Latin, Chinese will
            seem to have "no grammar"--in fact, some people equate "grammar" and
            "inflections." This, together with the idea that Chinese used symbols
            instead of ordinary words (I get the joke, here; they didn't) would
            have suggested something mathematical.

            Steve
          • cafaristeir
            ... I hate Budinos ! Esperanto desguised with Finnish-like words... (moreover, budinos makes me think at the French word for blutwurst ). ... This sounds
            Message 5 of 10 , May 4, 2011
              > There are several reconstructions of proto Finno-Ugric, which disagree. I
              > have seen some samples only. But there is no other Finno-Ugric constructed
              > languages than Budinos, which is based on modern languages and Esperanto.

              I hate Budinos ! Esperanto desguised with Finnish-like words... (moreover, "budinos" makes me think at the French word for "blutwurst").

              > I have partly sketched my own Finno-Ugric auxlang, which used also proto
              > FU as a source. It's not published yet.

              This sounds interesting ! What is it exactly ? If not a close reconstruction of Proto-FU, does it goes more in the direction of Frenkisch (for Germanic) or Slovianski (for Slavic); or is it even the Sambahsa of FU ;-) ?

              Besides Sambahsa, I have worked a little on a reconstructed IE with clear rules for accentuation, declension and conjugation. The part on verbs isn't ready yet. This document (in French) would enable any interested person to write/speak something very close to PIE, using the serious existing resources (mainly Adams & Mallory) as a lexicon.
              The Europaio project has published the new version of its grammar today. However, apparently because of some time constraints, it seems to me it is just an updating of the former version, not a complete consolidation.

              Olivier
            • Risto Kupsala
              ... To tell you the truth, I don t know the languages that you mention at all, except Sambahsa, so I can t make that comparison. My idea was to make a language
              Message 6 of 10 , May 4, 2011
                4.5.2011 18:10, cafaristeir kirjoitti:
                >> There are several reconstructions of proto Finno-Ugric, which disagree. I
                >> have seen some samples only. But there is no other Finno-Ugric constructed
                >> languages than Budinos, which is based on modern languages and Esperanto.
                > I hate Budinos ! Esperanto desguised with Finnish-like words... (moreover, "budinos" makes me think at the French word for "blutwurst").
                >
                >> I have partly sketched my own Finno-Ugric auxlang, which used also proto
                >> FU as a source. It's not published yet.
                > This sounds interesting ! What is it exactly ? If not a close reconstruction of Proto-FU, does it goes more in the direction of Frenkisch (for Germanic) or Slovianski (for Slavic); or is it even the Sambahsa of FU ;-) ?

                To tell you the truth, I don't know the languages that you mention at
                all, except Sambahsa, so I can't make that comparison. My idea was to
                make a language that is typologically Finno-Ugric. The grammar would
                include cases, postpositions, number, person, past and present tense,
                but lack separate future tense and gender, for example, because they are
                not part of Finno-Ugric languages and mindset. Word derivation would be
                done mainly with syllable suffixes, so there wouldn't be Esperantic
                vowel ending system as in Budinos. The phonology would include ö and ü,
                which are common sounds in FU, but not vowel harmony, which has
                disappeared fully or partly from most FU languages.

                Relatively few proto FU words have been identified, so most words would
                come from later branches of the family tree. Finnic and Hungarian would
                dominate the vocabulary.

                Here's an example:
                Finnish: Elävä kala ui veden alla.
                Estonian: Elav kala ujub vee all.
                Hungarian: Eleven hal úszik a víz alatt.
                Budinos: Elijo kala ujib vetan alasa.
                My FU auxlang: Elava kala ujs veden ala.
                English: A living fish swims under the water.

                Here's another translation from a Finnish folk poem:

                Jos mun tudatu tulesis,
                eda nagatu nagusis,
                sene keden andasim,
                bar osis kuj sen kedesa,
                sene sun čokasim,
                bar osis sen su suden veresa,
                ja kaulale kabasim,
                bar osis kolo kaulala,
                vel lahe menesim,
                bar osis sen lahi veren tele.

                --
                Risto Kupsala
              • cafaristeir
                Sellamat Risto ! ... Frenkisch and Slovianski (that was presented on Auxlang) want to be the average language of their respective families. That s possible
                Message 7 of 10 , May 5, 2011
                  Sellamat Risto !

                  > To tell you the truth, I don't know the languages that you mention at
                  > all, except Sambahsa, so I can't make that comparison.

                  Frenkisch and Slovianski (that was presented on Auxlang) want to be the "average" language of their respective families. That's possible to make a practicable conlang, because those linguistic families still exist nowadays (Germanic & Slavic)

                  My idea was to
                  > make a language that is typologically Finno-Ugric. The grammar would
                  > include cases, postpositions, number, person, past and present tense,
                  > but lack separate future tense and gender, for example, because they are
                  > not part of Finno-Ugric languages and mindset. Word derivation would be
                  > done mainly with syllable suffixes, so there wouldn't be Esperantic
                  > vowel ending system as in Budinos. The phonology would include أ� and أ�,
                  > which are common sounds in FU, but not vowel harmony, which has
                  > disappeared fully or partly from most FU languages.
                  >
                  > Relatively few proto FU words have been identified, so most words would
                  > come from later branches of the family tree. Finnic and Hungarian would
                  > dominate the vocabulary.

                  Good. Then your project seems to be halfway between Europaio and Frenkisch/Slovianski. While the grammar of Proto-FU seems easily reconstructible, it is true that the common wordstock of FU languages is particularly meagre, a few hundreds, compared to the few thousands of PIE. This may be due to the fact that Proto-FU peoples were hunters-gatherers, with a lower technologic development than their southern neighbours. However, it is of course impossible to get a full PIE vocabulary for the realities of the modern world; that's why I have invented Sambahsa.


                  > Here's an example:
                  > Finnish: Elأ¤vأ¤ kala ui veden alla.
                  > Estonian: Elav kala ujub vee all.
                  > Hungarian: Eleven hal أ�szik a vأ­z alatt.
                  > Budinos: Elijo kala ujib vetan alasa.
                  > My FU auxlang: Elava kala ujs veden ala.
                  > English: A living fish swims under the water.
                  >
                  The famous "Rosetta stone" of FU languages !
                  In my reconstruction of PIE, this would be :
                  *Snىjti supo dhg^h�s gwiqwْs wىdni
                  "j" stands for "H2" and "q" for "H3". All accents must be considered as high pitches. "supo" is unstressed there; I consider that PIE had only adverbs, no pre/postpositions. "Veden" and "wedn" are related.

                  In Sambahsa : Un gwiv piskis snaht sub id wed

                  Olivier
                • deinx nxtxr
                  ... Looks like you are doing something similar to my first conlang which was a Germanicized Esperanto basically (This is where Deini loosely stems from). I
                  Message 8 of 10 , May 7, 2011
                    On 05/04/2011 04:08 PM, Risto Kupsala wrote:
                    > 4.5.2011 18:10, cafaristeir kirjoitti:
                    >>> There are several reconstructions of proto Finno-Ugric, which disagree. I
                    >>> have seen some samples only. But there is no other Finno-Ugric constructed
                    >>> languages than Budinos, which is based on modern languages and Esperanto.
                    >> I hate Budinos ! Esperanto desguised with Finnish-like words... (moreover, "budinos" makes me think at the French word for "blutwurst").
                    >>
                    >>> I have partly sketched my own Finno-Ugric auxlang, which used also proto
                    >>> FU as a source. It's not published yet.
                    >> This sounds interesting ! What is it exactly ? If not a close reconstruction of Proto-FU, does it goes more in the direction of Frenkisch (for Germanic) or Slovianski (for Slavic); or is it even the Sambahsa of FU ;-) ?
                    > To tell you the truth, I don't know the languages that you mention at
                    > all, except Sambahsa, so I can't make that comparison. My idea was to
                    > make a language that is typologically Finno-Ugric. The grammar would
                    > include cases, postpositions, number, person, past and present tense,
                    > but lack separate future tense and gender, for example, because they are
                    > not part of Finno-Ugric languages and mindset. Word derivation would be
                    > done mainly with syllable suffixes, so there wouldn't be Esperantic
                    > vowel ending system as in Budinos. The phonology would include ö and ü,
                    > which are common sounds in FU, but not vowel harmony, which has
                    > disappeared fully or partly from most FU languages.
                    >
                    > Relatively few proto FU words have been identified, so most words would
                    > come from later branches of the family tree. Finnic and Hungarian would
                    > dominate the vocabulary.
                    >
                    > Here's an example:
                    > Finnish: Elävä kala ui veden alla.
                    > Estonian: Elav kala ujub vee all.
                    > Hungarian: Eleven hal úszik a víz alatt.
                    > Budinos: Elijo kala ujib vetan alasa.
                    > My FU auxlang: Elava kala ujs veden ala.
                    > English: A living fish swims under the water.
                    >
                    > Here's another translation from a Finnish folk poem:
                    >
                    > Jos mun tudatu tulesis,
                    > eda nagatu nagusis,
                    > sene keden andasim,
                    > bar osis kuj sen kedesa,
                    > sene sun čokasim,
                    > bar osis sen su suden veresa,
                    > ja kaulale kabasim,
                    > bar osis kolo kaulala,
                    > vel lahe menesim,
                    > bar osis sen lahi veren tele.
                    >
                    Looks like you are doing something similar to my first conlang which was
                    a Germanicized Esperanto basically (This is where Deini loosely stems
                    from). I too added some phonemes like /æ œ y θ ð/.
                  • cafaristeir
                    Sellamat Dana ! ... Budinos is already a Finno-Ugrized Esperanto, just like Dingwa is an Indo-Europeanized Esperanto. I hope Risto plans something more
                    Message 9 of 10 , May 7, 2011
                      Sellamat Dana !

                      > Looks like you are doing something similar to my first conlang which was
                      > a Germanicized Esperanto basically (This is where Deini loosely stems
                      > from). I too added some phonemes like /æ Å" y θ ð/.
                      >
                      Budinos is already a "Finno-Ugrized" Esperanto, just like Dingwa is an Indo-Europeanized Esperanto. I hope Risto plans something more interesting...

                      Olivier
                    • deinx nxtxr
                      ... And I ve created a worldlang E-o and an Anglo-Esperanto. We could make some more.
                      Message 10 of 10 , May 7, 2011
                        On 05/08/2011 02:24 AM, cafaristeir wrote:
                        > Sellamat Dana !
                        >
                        >> Looks like you are doing something similar to my first conlang which was
                        >> a Germanicized Esperanto basically (This is where Deini loosely stems
                        >> from). I too added some phonemes like /æ Å" y θ ð/.
                        >>
                        > Budinos is already a "Finno-Ugrized" Esperanto, just like Dingwa is an Indo-Europeanized Esperanto. I hope Risto plans something more interesting...
                        >
                        And I've created a worldlang E-o and an Anglo-Esperanto. We could make
                        some more.
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