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Re: [wpmac] Enough!

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  • Smokey Ardisson
    ... One last off-topic discursion here: getting the rights to Rosetta would not do anyone any good running PPC apps on 10.7, because Rosetta was basically
    Message 1 of 15 , Jan 9, 2012
      On Sun Jan 8, 2012 12:12 pm ((PST)), "ted_m_p_lee" <_@_> wrote:

      > (It doesn't say, but it doesn't sound like their solution will be
      >to get the rights to Rosetta and package that with Quicken, which is
      >what one rumor was; too bad because of course that would probably
      >help with any other PPC-only applications.)

      One last off-topic discursion here: getting the rights to Rosetta
      would not do anyone any good running PPC apps on 10.7, because
      Rosetta was basically (this is an oversimplification) just a traffic
      cop that directed PPC apps' calls to the PPC versions of the system
      libraries. Since 10.7 does not ship with PPC versions of the OS
      libraries, any app would still die immediately at launch. (And while
      you could likely build a PPC version of the UNIX portions of the OS
      and a few system frameworks from the Darwin sources, you'd still be
      missing all the "Mac" stuff, and even if you could convince Apple to
      license that part of the OS to you [ha!], there'd still be the
      problem of shipping GBs of binaries, and re-architecting your app and
      Rosetta to call those libraries in whatever location you install them
      [since they're not shipped with the OS, and lipoing them together
      with the existing OS libraries on every user's system is both
      insanity and evil].)

      That particular old "rumor" was probably better classified as
      "pie-in-the-sky dream" or "hopium" ;-)

      Smokey
    • Chris Harshman
      On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 10:57 AM, Smokey Ardisson ... Cite for that? My understanding (especially since Rosetta works with Snow Leopard, which does not include
      Message 2 of 15 , Jan 9, 2012
        On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 10:57 AM, Smokey Ardisson
        <smokey.ardisson@...>wrote:

        > **
        > One last off-topic discursion here: getting the rights to Rosetta
        > would not do anyone any good running PPC apps on 10.7, because
        > Rosetta was basically (this is an oversimplification) just a traffic
        > cop that directed PPC apps' calls to the PPC versions of the system
        > libraries.
        >

        Cite for that? My understanding (especially since Rosetta works with Snow
        Leopard, which does not include PowerPC code as I understand it) is that
        Rosetta was actually doing on the fly virtualization across platforms; it's
        tech licensed from Transitive (now part of IBM), e.g., QuickTransit.

        http://news.cnet.com/The-brains-behind-Apples-Rosetta-Transitive/2100-1016_3-5736190.html


        > re-architecting your app and
        > Rosetta to call those libraries in whatever location you install them
        >

        Um, assuming *arguendo* that you're correct vis-a-vis the "PPC
        libraries," wouldn't that be the linker's job?


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Smokey Ardisson
        On Mon Jan 9, 2012 9:03 pm ((PST)), Chris Harshman ... 10.6 shipped with PPC versions of all system libraries:
        Message 3 of 15 , Jan 10, 2012
          On Mon Jan 9, 2012 9:03 pm ((PST)), "Chris Harshman"
          <harshman@...> wrote:

          >On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 10:57 AM, Smokey Ardisson
          ><smokey.ardisson@...>wrote:
          >
          >> **
          >> One last off-topic discursion here: getting the rights to Rosetta
          >> would not do anyone any good running PPC apps on 10.7, because
          >> Rosetta was basically (this is an oversimplification) just a traffic
          >> cop that directed PPC apps' calls to the PPC versions of the system
          >> libraries.
          >>
          >
          >Cite for that? My understanding (especially since Rosetta works with Snow
          >Leopard, which does not include PowerPC code as I understand it) is that
          >Rosetta was actually doing on the fly virtualization across platforms; it's
          >tech licensed from Transitive (now part of IBM), e.g., QuickTransit.
          >
          >http://news.cnet.com/The-brains-behind-Apples-Rosetta-Transitive/2100-1016_3-5736190.html

          10.6 shipped with PPC versions of all system libraries:
          http://symbols.mozilla.org/symbols_os/Mac_OS_X-10_6_8-10K549-Security_Update_2011-006-symbols.txt
          10.7 does not:
          http://symbols.mozilla.org/symbols_os/Mac_OS_X-10_7_2-11C74-symbols.txt

          (If you load each .sym file in the manifest at a URL relative to the
          symbols_os directory, you'll see for 10.6 there are PPC and x86
          files, but for 10.7 there are only x86. 10.6 and 10.7 both also have
          x86_64 parts, too, which are not included here because dump_syms was
          run only with -arch ppc -arch x86 on both OS versions.)

          If Rosetta didn't need the PPC OS routines, why in the world would
          Apple ship 10.6 with PPC versions of the libraries that it didn't
          need (since 10.6 would only install and run on Intel Macs) in
          addition to the x86 and x86_64 versions that 10.6 required? This
          isn't proof, of course, but Apple's not known for shipping MBs/GBs of
          stuff the OS doesn't need (see: Rosetta on 10.6, printer drivers on
          10.6+, Java on 10.7), and shipping a 3-arch OS when only a 2-arch OS
          is needed certainly leans in the "Rosetta needs it, but it's too big
          and too difficult to safely install after the fact when the user
          needs Rosetta" direction.

          There was also a long thread on MacInTouch sometime last year where
          people successfully installed the 10.6 Rosetta package on 10.7 and
          got "Rosetta" running, but PPC apps failed to run. I looked it up
          again, and the capstone post is here:
          http://www.macintouch.com/readerreports/lion/topic4948-004.html#item.141325
          (It looks like the InsanelyMac people are trying to do exactly what I
          "suggested", although apparently you have to start from the kernel!)

          Note also in the article you cited Jobs and especially Schiller
          remark that Rosetta is an Apple technology and that Transitive
          technology is only a part of the whole, FWIW. This could mean
          anything from "Rosetta is the technology covering the way we
          integrated the QuickTransit product into the OS" to "We don't use
          QuickTransit, but we licensed some pieces of it, or some IP related
          to it, and developed Rosetta, which works in a similar but not
          identical way". Since it's Apple, we'll likely never know (unless
          perhaps Quicken 2007 for 10.7 comes out as the same old PPC app with
          a Rosetta-like kludge attached and someone from Intuit spills the
          beans on the details of their implementation and how it differed from
          Rosetta.) :-P

          >> re-architecting your app and
          >> Rosetta to call those libraries in whatever location you install them
          >>
          >
          >Um, assuming *arguendo* that you're correct vis-a-vis the "PPC
          >libraries," wouldn't that be the linker's job?

          Sure (or setting the DYLD_LIBRARY_* environment variables, as the
          InsanelyMac thread suggested); I got a bit carried away ;-) But
          you'd still have to reconfigure your build system in the former case,
          which may range from trivial to difficult, depending on the quality
          of that system.

          At any rate, this is way off in the weeds now for this group, so we
          should probably move back to discussing other cross-architecture
          technologies such as WordPerfect-Mac in SheepShaver ;-)

          Smokey
        • Chris Harshman
          On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 7:55 PM, Smokey Ardisson ... Which actually makes my interpretation stronger; Rosetta ran underneath the PPC libraries. Since Lion has
          Message 4 of 15 , Jan 10, 2012
            On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 7:55 PM, Smokey Ardisson
            <smokey.ardisson@...>wrote:

            > **
            > 10.6 shipped with PPC versions of all system libraries:
            >
            > http://symbols.mozilla.org/symbols_os/Mac_OS_X-10_6_8-10K549-Security_Update_2011-006-symbols.txt
            >

            Which actually makes my interpretation stronger; Rosetta ran underneath the
            PPC libraries. Since Lion has no Rosetta, it would have no PPC libraries...

            If Rosetta was just 'traffic cop,' why wouldn't it have routed PPC library
            calls to their Intel equivalents?

            There was also a long thread on MacInTouch sometime last year where
            > people successfully installed the 10.6 Rosetta package on 10.7 and
            > got "Rosetta" running, but PPC apps failed to run. I looked it up
            > again, and the capstone post is here:
            > http://www.macintouch.com/readerreports/lion/topic4948-004.html#item.141325
            >

            "Rosetta's not actually their software, just something they licensed up
            through Snow Leopard. It currently belongs to IBM..." :)

            That post also reaffirms my understanding of Rosetta's operation.

            PowerPC app loads. Through its symbol table, it causes the linker to load
            the PPC libraries it's linked against. That linked executable (comprised of
            PPC code) is then transmogrified via Rosetta into Intel instructions.

            At any rate, this is way off in the weeds now for this group, so we
            > should probably move back to discussing other cross-architecture
            > technologies such as WordPerfect-Mac in SheepShaver ;-)
            >

            I tried the SheepShaver 3.5 WP, was hoping it would work for me, but even
            though it's contemporaneous with WP 8 for Linux/Windows, it doesn't handle
            documents with any sort of complex formatting (i.e., WP macro generated
            pleading paper), so, I'm still stuck using Wine and WordPerfect for Windows
            12... :\
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