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Re: [wpmac] Enough!

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  • Smokey Ardisson
    ... ...And most of that was John; I really just slapped LaunchServices stuff into the Mac OS X-side applet s plist ;-) Smokey
    Message 1 of 15 , Jan 7, 2012
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      On Fri Jan 6, 2012 9:40 pm ((PST)), "em315" <em315@...> wrote:

      >--- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, "John R" <johnrethorst@...> wrote:
      >>
      >> But wait a minute! I can now run Ed's stuff, including his _very
      >>nice_ WPMacApp! I wish I knew how to build something that good (or
      >>even steal it). It's a highly professional piece of work.
      >
      >Actually, it's all based on things that you and Smokey Ardisson
      >thought up - mostly that very ingenious system for clicking on a
      >file in OS X and having it open in SheepShaver. That was a real
      >breakthrough.

      ...And most of that was John; I really just slapped LaunchServices
      stuff into the Mac OS X-side applet's plist ;-)

      Smokey
    • ted_m_p_lee
      ... Thanks! I ve read a lot of complaints about the problem, and no very satisfactory solutions, so I m glad to hear this. Time will tell, of course,
      Message 2 of 15 , Jan 8, 2012
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        --- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, "kingtj@..." <kingtj@...> wrote:
        >
        > Ted, one thing you might be happy to hear is the news that Intuit Corp. is actually updating Quicken 2007 to work under OS X Lion without the need for Rosetta.
        >

        Thanks! I've read a lot of complaints about the problem, and no very satisfactory solutions, so I'm glad to hear this. Time will tell, of course, whether the news is actually true, or just yet another rumor.

        We now return you to your normal programming...
      • ted_m_p_lee
        ... Minor re-interruption. I found the place on the Intuit website where they actually say they are re-engineering Quicken 2007 to run on Lion, to be ready
        Message 3 of 15 , Jan 8, 2012
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          --- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, "ted_m_p_lee" <tmplee@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Thanks! I've read a lot of complaints about the problem, and no very satisfactory solutions, so I'm glad to hear this. Time will tell, of course, whether the news is actually true, or just yet another rumor.
          >
          > We now return you to your normal programming...
          >

          Minor re-interruption. I found the place on the Intuit website where they actually say they are "re-engineering" Quicken 2007 to run on Lion, to be ready in the spring. There's even a place where you can asked to be notified when it's ready. So it sounds much more solid than a rumor. (It doesn't say, but it doesn't sound like their solution will be to get the rights to Rosetta and package that with Quicken, which is what one rumor was; too bad because of course that would probably help with any other PPC-only applications.)
        • Smokey Ardisson
          ... One last off-topic discursion here: getting the rights to Rosetta would not do anyone any good running PPC apps on 10.7, because Rosetta was basically
          Message 4 of 15 , Jan 9, 2012
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            On Sun Jan 8, 2012 12:12 pm ((PST)), "ted_m_p_lee" <_@_> wrote:

            > (It doesn't say, but it doesn't sound like their solution will be
            >to get the rights to Rosetta and package that with Quicken, which is
            >what one rumor was; too bad because of course that would probably
            >help with any other PPC-only applications.)

            One last off-topic discursion here: getting the rights to Rosetta
            would not do anyone any good running PPC apps on 10.7, because
            Rosetta was basically (this is an oversimplification) just a traffic
            cop that directed PPC apps' calls to the PPC versions of the system
            libraries. Since 10.7 does not ship with PPC versions of the OS
            libraries, any app would still die immediately at launch. (And while
            you could likely build a PPC version of the UNIX portions of the OS
            and a few system frameworks from the Darwin sources, you'd still be
            missing all the "Mac" stuff, and even if you could convince Apple to
            license that part of the OS to you [ha!], there'd still be the
            problem of shipping GBs of binaries, and re-architecting your app and
            Rosetta to call those libraries in whatever location you install them
            [since they're not shipped with the OS, and lipoing them together
            with the existing OS libraries on every user's system is both
            insanity and evil].)

            That particular old "rumor" was probably better classified as
            "pie-in-the-sky dream" or "hopium" ;-)

            Smokey
          • Chris Harshman
            On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 10:57 AM, Smokey Ardisson ... Cite for that? My understanding (especially since Rosetta works with Snow Leopard, which does not include
            Message 5 of 15 , Jan 9, 2012
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              On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 10:57 AM, Smokey Ardisson
              <smokey.ardisson@...>wrote:

              > **
              > One last off-topic discursion here: getting the rights to Rosetta
              > would not do anyone any good running PPC apps on 10.7, because
              > Rosetta was basically (this is an oversimplification) just a traffic
              > cop that directed PPC apps' calls to the PPC versions of the system
              > libraries.
              >

              Cite for that? My understanding (especially since Rosetta works with Snow
              Leopard, which does not include PowerPC code as I understand it) is that
              Rosetta was actually doing on the fly virtualization across platforms; it's
              tech licensed from Transitive (now part of IBM), e.g., QuickTransit.

              http://news.cnet.com/The-brains-behind-Apples-Rosetta-Transitive/2100-1016_3-5736190.html


              > re-architecting your app and
              > Rosetta to call those libraries in whatever location you install them
              >

              Um, assuming *arguendo* that you're correct vis-a-vis the "PPC
              libraries," wouldn't that be the linker's job?


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Smokey Ardisson
              On Mon Jan 9, 2012 9:03 pm ((PST)), Chris Harshman ... 10.6 shipped with PPC versions of all system libraries:
              Message 6 of 15 , Jan 10, 2012
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                On Mon Jan 9, 2012 9:03 pm ((PST)), "Chris Harshman"
                <harshman@...> wrote:

                >On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 10:57 AM, Smokey Ardisson
                ><smokey.ardisson@...>wrote:
                >
                >> **
                >> One last off-topic discursion here: getting the rights to Rosetta
                >> would not do anyone any good running PPC apps on 10.7, because
                >> Rosetta was basically (this is an oversimplification) just a traffic
                >> cop that directed PPC apps' calls to the PPC versions of the system
                >> libraries.
                >>
                >
                >Cite for that? My understanding (especially since Rosetta works with Snow
                >Leopard, which does not include PowerPC code as I understand it) is that
                >Rosetta was actually doing on the fly virtualization across platforms; it's
                >tech licensed from Transitive (now part of IBM), e.g., QuickTransit.
                >
                >http://news.cnet.com/The-brains-behind-Apples-Rosetta-Transitive/2100-1016_3-5736190.html

                10.6 shipped with PPC versions of all system libraries:
                http://symbols.mozilla.org/symbols_os/Mac_OS_X-10_6_8-10K549-Security_Update_2011-006-symbols.txt
                10.7 does not:
                http://symbols.mozilla.org/symbols_os/Mac_OS_X-10_7_2-11C74-symbols.txt

                (If you load each .sym file in the manifest at a URL relative to the
                symbols_os directory, you'll see for 10.6 there are PPC and x86
                files, but for 10.7 there are only x86. 10.6 and 10.7 both also have
                x86_64 parts, too, which are not included here because dump_syms was
                run only with -arch ppc -arch x86 on both OS versions.)

                If Rosetta didn't need the PPC OS routines, why in the world would
                Apple ship 10.6 with PPC versions of the libraries that it didn't
                need (since 10.6 would only install and run on Intel Macs) in
                addition to the x86 and x86_64 versions that 10.6 required? This
                isn't proof, of course, but Apple's not known for shipping MBs/GBs of
                stuff the OS doesn't need (see: Rosetta on 10.6, printer drivers on
                10.6+, Java on 10.7), and shipping a 3-arch OS when only a 2-arch OS
                is needed certainly leans in the "Rosetta needs it, but it's too big
                and too difficult to safely install after the fact when the user
                needs Rosetta" direction.

                There was also a long thread on MacInTouch sometime last year where
                people successfully installed the 10.6 Rosetta package on 10.7 and
                got "Rosetta" running, but PPC apps failed to run. I looked it up
                again, and the capstone post is here:
                http://www.macintouch.com/readerreports/lion/topic4948-004.html#item.141325
                (It looks like the InsanelyMac people are trying to do exactly what I
                "suggested", although apparently you have to start from the kernel!)

                Note also in the article you cited Jobs and especially Schiller
                remark that Rosetta is an Apple technology and that Transitive
                technology is only a part of the whole, FWIW. This could mean
                anything from "Rosetta is the technology covering the way we
                integrated the QuickTransit product into the OS" to "We don't use
                QuickTransit, but we licensed some pieces of it, or some IP related
                to it, and developed Rosetta, which works in a similar but not
                identical way". Since it's Apple, we'll likely never know (unless
                perhaps Quicken 2007 for 10.7 comes out as the same old PPC app with
                a Rosetta-like kludge attached and someone from Intuit spills the
                beans on the details of their implementation and how it differed from
                Rosetta.) :-P

                >> re-architecting your app and
                >> Rosetta to call those libraries in whatever location you install them
                >>
                >
                >Um, assuming *arguendo* that you're correct vis-a-vis the "PPC
                >libraries," wouldn't that be the linker's job?

                Sure (or setting the DYLD_LIBRARY_* environment variables, as the
                InsanelyMac thread suggested); I got a bit carried away ;-) But
                you'd still have to reconfigure your build system in the former case,
                which may range from trivial to difficult, depending on the quality
                of that system.

                At any rate, this is way off in the weeds now for this group, so we
                should probably move back to discussing other cross-architecture
                technologies such as WordPerfect-Mac in SheepShaver ;-)

                Smokey
              • Chris Harshman
                On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 7:55 PM, Smokey Ardisson ... Which actually makes my interpretation stronger; Rosetta ran underneath the PPC libraries. Since Lion has
                Message 7 of 15 , Jan 10, 2012
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                  On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 7:55 PM, Smokey Ardisson
                  <smokey.ardisson@...>wrote:

                  > **
                  > 10.6 shipped with PPC versions of all system libraries:
                  >
                  > http://symbols.mozilla.org/symbols_os/Mac_OS_X-10_6_8-10K549-Security_Update_2011-006-symbols.txt
                  >

                  Which actually makes my interpretation stronger; Rosetta ran underneath the
                  PPC libraries. Since Lion has no Rosetta, it would have no PPC libraries...

                  If Rosetta was just 'traffic cop,' why wouldn't it have routed PPC library
                  calls to their Intel equivalents?

                  There was also a long thread on MacInTouch sometime last year where
                  > people successfully installed the 10.6 Rosetta package on 10.7 and
                  > got "Rosetta" running, but PPC apps failed to run. I looked it up
                  > again, and the capstone post is here:
                  > http://www.macintouch.com/readerreports/lion/topic4948-004.html#item.141325
                  >

                  "Rosetta's not actually their software, just something they licensed up
                  through Snow Leopard. It currently belongs to IBM..." :)

                  That post also reaffirms my understanding of Rosetta's operation.

                  PowerPC app loads. Through its symbol table, it causes the linker to load
                  the PPC libraries it's linked against. That linked executable (comprised of
                  PPC code) is then transmogrified via Rosetta into Intel instructions.

                  At any rate, this is way off in the weeds now for this group, so we
                  > should probably move back to discussing other cross-architecture
                  > technologies such as WordPerfect-Mac in SheepShaver ;-)
                  >

                  I tried the SheepShaver 3.5 WP, was hoping it would work for me, but even
                  though it's contemporaneous with WP 8 for Linux/Windows, it doesn't handle
                  documents with any sort of complex formatting (i.e., WP macro generated
                  pleading paper), so, I'm still stuck using Wine and WordPerfect for Windows
                  12... :\
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