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Re: [wpmac] Enough!

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  • Chris Harshman
    ... There s no such thing as an Intel Powerbook. I had a C2D Mac mini as a HTPC (that also ran VMware and a lightweight Linux server),
    Message 1 of 15 , Jan 6, 2012
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      On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 7:10 PM, John R <johnrethorst@...> wrote:

      > **
      >
      > my Intel Powerbook seems to have found a home connected to my TV and
      > stereo, serving up streaming net video and iTunes all day long.
      >

      <pedantic>There's no such thing as an Intel Powerbook.</pedantic>

      I had a C2D Mac mini as a HTPC (that also ran VMware and a lightweight
      Linux server), until it failed piece by piece (first the digital output,
      then the on-board WiFi, then the machine just keeled over and died while on
      loan to a friend ... never understood that). Then I had an Intel MacBook
      hooked up in that capacity.

      Until I tried an Apple TV (first-gen, then "hockey
      puck<http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_ipod/family/apple_tv>").
      Never again. The Apple TV, flashed <http://firecore.com/atvflash-black>, is
      the bomb diggity. It plays pretty much any media file I chuck at it, from
      my local NAS, plus all the usual suspects (Netflix, etc). Well, well worth
      the $130 (ATV2 + the software). Draws less power, too, and has a
      replaceable-battery remote control and a UI designed from day 1 to be on
      the TV. (Also, Apple killed Front Row for OS X, making 'full Macs' less
      optimum as media center devices.)

      Being able to chuck whatever media I have on my iPad or iPhone onto the TV
      at the tap of a button? Awesome. (Boring my neighbors with photos taken on
      my iPhone while hiking Runyon Canyon with my Labrador no longer
      requires a slide
      projector <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHUUyx0d7qw>! ;))

      Plus, it frees your Intel Mac up for heavier lifting...


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Rick Albright
      ... Is that an actual statistic? The like maybe 30% sounds suspiciously like a personal swag. I know that my wife s G4 eMac frustrates her more every day,
      Message 2 of 15 , Jan 6, 2012
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        On Jan 6, 2012, at 10:14 PM, Eric wrote:

        > Um, actually Flash's role on the internet is drastically reduced now. Like maybe 30% of sites use it. Most have switched to mobile friendly things

        Is that an actual statistic? The "like maybe 30%" sounds suspiciously like a personal swag. I know that my wife's G4 eMac frustrates her more every day, because her friends are constantly sending her things that she can't play or access. It isn't just videos, which would be kind of obvious, but an increasing number of sites use flash for things like uploading groups of files, though some (not all) sites, such as Snapfish, will give you an alternative single-file upload option. And though I thought YouTube was flash-free, when I sent her a page from the Norton publishers with student finalists reciting EBB's "How Do I Love Thee" sonnet, even though the videos on the page were all YouTube, she couldn't view it.

        Even if 30% is accurate, 30% of a very large number (the number of internet sites) is still a pretty large number. A baseball hitter who is successful 30% of the time is doing very well. If your doctor tells you you "only" have a 30% chance of dying in the next 6 months, I doubt that you'd be very comforted.

        And one of the annoying things about Adobe is that, once they have a new version out, it seems to preclude your using any prior versions, even if they work perfectly well. Therefore, try to do anything that requires Flash Player, it automatically tells you you need version 11 (I think that's the current one) and as soon as you try to get it, you learn that you can't. You can download the latest version for the PPC, but then go back to the web site in question, and it immediately pops up the message that you need version 11 to view the content.

        So, yes, John, I feel your pain, too. I'm going to have to get her a new Mini, as the complaints are getting to me. Oh, well, I can still run Classic on it, so I'll probably keep it around somewhere to run WordPerfect. I know some claim that Sheepshaver runs more stably than Classic, but Sheepshaver must be periodically reinstalled each time there's an update, and it seems to demand a certain amount of configuring and add-ons to get it to work properly. That's just my perception from the volume of troubleshooting messages I see on the list. I don't mean to offend the Sheepshaver devotees and their work; it just seems to add another layer of complexity, even though it does extend the life of WordPerfect.

        ===========================================================
        Rick Albright
        logres@...

        Writing the Past, Writing the Future: Time and Narrative in Gothic and Sensation Fiction
        http://www.powells.com/biblio/72-9780980149647-0
      • mxytsplyk
        Congratulations, John! I have been on Leopard since about May and am happy, but will probably upgrade to Snow Leopard (alas, Lion will not run on PPC or Core
        Message 3 of 15 , Jan 6, 2012
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          Congratulations, John! I have been on Leopard since about May and am happy, but will probably upgrade to Snow Leopard (alas, Lion will not run on PPC or Core Duo processors and mine is a Core Duo). Your Sheepshaver package runs great, and itʻs a real kick to now see graphics in WP file previews!

          I can also second the plug for Apple TV. I have a 1st. Generation with a 160GB HD. I can watch pretty much anything I want, including programming by networks not in the cable company lineup. Next month Iʻm going off-cable.
        • em315
          ... Actually, it s all based on things that you and Smokey Ardisson thought up - mostly that very ingenious system for clicking on a file in OS X and having
          Message 4 of 15 , Jan 6, 2012
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            --- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, "John R" <johnrethorst@...> wrote:
            >
            > But wait a minute! I can now run Ed's stuff, including his _very nice_ WPMacApp! I wish I knew how to build something that good (or even steal it). It's a highly professional piece of work.

            Actually, it's all based on things that you and Smokey Ardisson thought up - mostly that very ingenious system for clicking on a file in OS X and having it open in SheepShaver. That was a real breakthrough.

            Now that you can run that WPMac App on your system, maybe you can figure out (I can't) the timing problem in the "Background Actions Script" - sometimes, when I quit WPMac with that script running in the background, it starts up again a couple of seconds later. I don't have a clue about what's causing it or how to fix it.

            I've actually been waiting for you to start using Snow Leopard/Lion machine so that I could ask you this question...
          • ted_m_p_lee
            ... I m afraid I m stuck on Leopard or Snow Leopard, because of Rosetta. I don t know what I m gong to do when all our PPC or early Intel (among other things
            Message 5 of 15 , Jan 7, 2012
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              --- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, "John R" <johnrethorst@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > I was proud of how long I stayed on Tiger: almost as long as I stayed with system 6 after 7 came out, or as long as I stayed there before moving to OS 8.6. I had to, for some reason or other, but felt ruffled -- what the hey was wrong with desk accessories and fkeys anyway?
              >

              I'm afraid I'm stuck on Leopard or Snow Leopard, because of Rosetta. I don't know what I'm gong to do when all our PPC or early Intel (among other things we have one of the earlier Intel mini's inherited from my daughter-in-law when she upgraded to a newer iMac) hardware dies and we have to get something that will only run Lion or later. Sheepshaver works great for several of our irreplaceable classic apps, including of course WP, but it looks like the earliest version of Quicken I seem to have around requires a later version of OS 9 than will run under Sheepshaver. And we all know there seems to be no satisfactory answer to the Quicken-only-PPC problem.

              Ted Lee
              Minnetonka, MN
            • kingtj@swbell.net
              Ted, one thing you might be happy to hear is the news that Intuit Corp. is actually updating Quicken 2007 to work under OS X Lion without the need for Rosetta.
              Message 6 of 15 , Jan 7, 2012
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                Ted, one thing you might be happy to hear is the news that Intuit Corp. is actually updating Quicken 2007 to work under OS X Lion without the need for Rosetta.

                http://techcitement.com/software/mac_os/intuit-decides-mac-users-like-being-stuck-in-2007/#.TwiEaCOhDcM



                --- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, "ted_m_p_lee" <tmplee@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, "John R" <johnrethorst@> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > I was proud of how long I stayed on Tiger: almost as long as I stayed with system 6 after 7 came out, or as long as I stayed there before moving to OS 8.6. I had to, for some reason or other, but felt ruffled -- what the hey was wrong with desk accessories and fkeys anyway?
                > >
                >
                > I'm afraid I'm stuck on Leopard or Snow Leopard, because of Rosetta. I don't know what I'm gong to do when all our PPC or early Intel (among other things we have one of the earlier Intel mini's inherited from my daughter-in-law when she upgraded to a newer iMac) hardware dies and we have to get something that will only run Lion or later. Sheepshaver works great for several of our irreplaceable classic apps, including of course WP, but it looks like the earliest version of Quicken I seem to have around requires a later version of OS 9 than will run under Sheepshaver. And we all know there seems to be no satisfactory answer to the Quicken-only-PPC problem.
                >
                > Ted Lee
                > Minnetonka, MN
                >
              • Smokey Ardisson
                ... ...And most of that was John; I really just slapped LaunchServices stuff into the Mac OS X-side applet s plist ;-) Smokey
                Message 7 of 15 , Jan 7, 2012
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                  On Fri Jan 6, 2012 9:40 pm ((PST)), "em315" <em315@...> wrote:

                  >--- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, "John R" <johnrethorst@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >> But wait a minute! I can now run Ed's stuff, including his _very
                  >>nice_ WPMacApp! I wish I knew how to build something that good (or
                  >>even steal it). It's a highly professional piece of work.
                  >
                  >Actually, it's all based on things that you and Smokey Ardisson
                  >thought up - mostly that very ingenious system for clicking on a
                  >file in OS X and having it open in SheepShaver. That was a real
                  >breakthrough.

                  ...And most of that was John; I really just slapped LaunchServices
                  stuff into the Mac OS X-side applet's plist ;-)

                  Smokey
                • ted_m_p_lee
                  ... Thanks! I ve read a lot of complaints about the problem, and no very satisfactory solutions, so I m glad to hear this. Time will tell, of course,
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jan 8, 2012
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                    --- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, "kingtj@..." <kingtj@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Ted, one thing you might be happy to hear is the news that Intuit Corp. is actually updating Quicken 2007 to work under OS X Lion without the need for Rosetta.
                    >

                    Thanks! I've read a lot of complaints about the problem, and no very satisfactory solutions, so I'm glad to hear this. Time will tell, of course, whether the news is actually true, or just yet another rumor.

                    We now return you to your normal programming...
                  • ted_m_p_lee
                    ... Minor re-interruption. I found the place on the Intuit website where they actually say they are re-engineering Quicken 2007 to run on Lion, to be ready
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jan 8, 2012
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                      --- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, "ted_m_p_lee" <tmplee@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Thanks! I've read a lot of complaints about the problem, and no very satisfactory solutions, so I'm glad to hear this. Time will tell, of course, whether the news is actually true, or just yet another rumor.
                      >
                      > We now return you to your normal programming...
                      >

                      Minor re-interruption. I found the place on the Intuit website where they actually say they are "re-engineering" Quicken 2007 to run on Lion, to be ready in the spring. There's even a place where you can asked to be notified when it's ready. So it sounds much more solid than a rumor. (It doesn't say, but it doesn't sound like their solution will be to get the rights to Rosetta and package that with Quicken, which is what one rumor was; too bad because of course that would probably help with any other PPC-only applications.)
                    • Smokey Ardisson
                      ... One last off-topic discursion here: getting the rights to Rosetta would not do anyone any good running PPC apps on 10.7, because Rosetta was basically
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jan 9, 2012
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                        On Sun Jan 8, 2012 12:12 pm ((PST)), "ted_m_p_lee" <_@_> wrote:

                        > (It doesn't say, but it doesn't sound like their solution will be
                        >to get the rights to Rosetta and package that with Quicken, which is
                        >what one rumor was; too bad because of course that would probably
                        >help with any other PPC-only applications.)

                        One last off-topic discursion here: getting the rights to Rosetta
                        would not do anyone any good running PPC apps on 10.7, because
                        Rosetta was basically (this is an oversimplification) just a traffic
                        cop that directed PPC apps' calls to the PPC versions of the system
                        libraries. Since 10.7 does not ship with PPC versions of the OS
                        libraries, any app would still die immediately at launch. (And while
                        you could likely build a PPC version of the UNIX portions of the OS
                        and a few system frameworks from the Darwin sources, you'd still be
                        missing all the "Mac" stuff, and even if you could convince Apple to
                        license that part of the OS to you [ha!], there'd still be the
                        problem of shipping GBs of binaries, and re-architecting your app and
                        Rosetta to call those libraries in whatever location you install them
                        [since they're not shipped with the OS, and lipoing them together
                        with the existing OS libraries on every user's system is both
                        insanity and evil].)

                        That particular old "rumor" was probably better classified as
                        "pie-in-the-sky dream" or "hopium" ;-)

                        Smokey
                      • Chris Harshman
                        On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 10:57 AM, Smokey Ardisson ... Cite for that? My understanding (especially since Rosetta works with Snow Leopard, which does not include
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jan 9, 2012
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                          On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 10:57 AM, Smokey Ardisson
                          <smokey.ardisson@...>wrote:

                          > **
                          > One last off-topic discursion here: getting the rights to Rosetta
                          > would not do anyone any good running PPC apps on 10.7, because
                          > Rosetta was basically (this is an oversimplification) just a traffic
                          > cop that directed PPC apps' calls to the PPC versions of the system
                          > libraries.
                          >

                          Cite for that? My understanding (especially since Rosetta works with Snow
                          Leopard, which does not include PowerPC code as I understand it) is that
                          Rosetta was actually doing on the fly virtualization across platforms; it's
                          tech licensed from Transitive (now part of IBM), e.g., QuickTransit.

                          http://news.cnet.com/The-brains-behind-Apples-Rosetta-Transitive/2100-1016_3-5736190.html


                          > re-architecting your app and
                          > Rosetta to call those libraries in whatever location you install them
                          >

                          Um, assuming *arguendo* that you're correct vis-a-vis the "PPC
                          libraries," wouldn't that be the linker's job?


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Smokey Ardisson
                          On Mon Jan 9, 2012 9:03 pm ((PST)), Chris Harshman ... 10.6 shipped with PPC versions of all system libraries:
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jan 10, 2012
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                            On Mon Jan 9, 2012 9:03 pm ((PST)), "Chris Harshman"
                            <harshman@...> wrote:

                            >On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 10:57 AM, Smokey Ardisson
                            ><smokey.ardisson@...>wrote:
                            >
                            >> **
                            >> One last off-topic discursion here: getting the rights to Rosetta
                            >> would not do anyone any good running PPC apps on 10.7, because
                            >> Rosetta was basically (this is an oversimplification) just a traffic
                            >> cop that directed PPC apps' calls to the PPC versions of the system
                            >> libraries.
                            >>
                            >
                            >Cite for that? My understanding (especially since Rosetta works with Snow
                            >Leopard, which does not include PowerPC code as I understand it) is that
                            >Rosetta was actually doing on the fly virtualization across platforms; it's
                            >tech licensed from Transitive (now part of IBM), e.g., QuickTransit.
                            >
                            >http://news.cnet.com/The-brains-behind-Apples-Rosetta-Transitive/2100-1016_3-5736190.html

                            10.6 shipped with PPC versions of all system libraries:
                            http://symbols.mozilla.org/symbols_os/Mac_OS_X-10_6_8-10K549-Security_Update_2011-006-symbols.txt
                            10.7 does not:
                            http://symbols.mozilla.org/symbols_os/Mac_OS_X-10_7_2-11C74-symbols.txt

                            (If you load each .sym file in the manifest at a URL relative to the
                            symbols_os directory, you'll see for 10.6 there are PPC and x86
                            files, but for 10.7 there are only x86. 10.6 and 10.7 both also have
                            x86_64 parts, too, which are not included here because dump_syms was
                            run only with -arch ppc -arch x86 on both OS versions.)

                            If Rosetta didn't need the PPC OS routines, why in the world would
                            Apple ship 10.6 with PPC versions of the libraries that it didn't
                            need (since 10.6 would only install and run on Intel Macs) in
                            addition to the x86 and x86_64 versions that 10.6 required? This
                            isn't proof, of course, but Apple's not known for shipping MBs/GBs of
                            stuff the OS doesn't need (see: Rosetta on 10.6, printer drivers on
                            10.6+, Java on 10.7), and shipping a 3-arch OS when only a 2-arch OS
                            is needed certainly leans in the "Rosetta needs it, but it's too big
                            and too difficult to safely install after the fact when the user
                            needs Rosetta" direction.

                            There was also a long thread on MacInTouch sometime last year where
                            people successfully installed the 10.6 Rosetta package on 10.7 and
                            got "Rosetta" running, but PPC apps failed to run. I looked it up
                            again, and the capstone post is here:
                            http://www.macintouch.com/readerreports/lion/topic4948-004.html#item.141325
                            (It looks like the InsanelyMac people are trying to do exactly what I
                            "suggested", although apparently you have to start from the kernel!)

                            Note also in the article you cited Jobs and especially Schiller
                            remark that Rosetta is an Apple technology and that Transitive
                            technology is only a part of the whole, FWIW. This could mean
                            anything from "Rosetta is the technology covering the way we
                            integrated the QuickTransit product into the OS" to "We don't use
                            QuickTransit, but we licensed some pieces of it, or some IP related
                            to it, and developed Rosetta, which works in a similar but not
                            identical way". Since it's Apple, we'll likely never know (unless
                            perhaps Quicken 2007 for 10.7 comes out as the same old PPC app with
                            a Rosetta-like kludge attached and someone from Intuit spills the
                            beans on the details of their implementation and how it differed from
                            Rosetta.) :-P

                            >> re-architecting your app and
                            >> Rosetta to call those libraries in whatever location you install them
                            >>
                            >
                            >Um, assuming *arguendo* that you're correct vis-a-vis the "PPC
                            >libraries," wouldn't that be the linker's job?

                            Sure (or setting the DYLD_LIBRARY_* environment variables, as the
                            InsanelyMac thread suggested); I got a bit carried away ;-) But
                            you'd still have to reconfigure your build system in the former case,
                            which may range from trivial to difficult, depending on the quality
                            of that system.

                            At any rate, this is way off in the weeds now for this group, so we
                            should probably move back to discussing other cross-architecture
                            technologies such as WordPerfect-Mac in SheepShaver ;-)

                            Smokey
                          • Chris Harshman
                            On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 7:55 PM, Smokey Ardisson ... Which actually makes my interpretation stronger; Rosetta ran underneath the PPC libraries. Since Lion has
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jan 10, 2012
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                              On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 7:55 PM, Smokey Ardisson
                              <smokey.ardisson@...>wrote:

                              > **
                              > 10.6 shipped with PPC versions of all system libraries:
                              >
                              > http://symbols.mozilla.org/symbols_os/Mac_OS_X-10_6_8-10K549-Security_Update_2011-006-symbols.txt
                              >

                              Which actually makes my interpretation stronger; Rosetta ran underneath the
                              PPC libraries. Since Lion has no Rosetta, it would have no PPC libraries...

                              If Rosetta was just 'traffic cop,' why wouldn't it have routed PPC library
                              calls to their Intel equivalents?

                              There was also a long thread on MacInTouch sometime last year where
                              > people successfully installed the 10.6 Rosetta package on 10.7 and
                              > got "Rosetta" running, but PPC apps failed to run. I looked it up
                              > again, and the capstone post is here:
                              > http://www.macintouch.com/readerreports/lion/topic4948-004.html#item.141325
                              >

                              "Rosetta's not actually their software, just something they licensed up
                              through Snow Leopard. It currently belongs to IBM..." :)

                              That post also reaffirms my understanding of Rosetta's operation.

                              PowerPC app loads. Through its symbol table, it causes the linker to load
                              the PPC libraries it's linked against. That linked executable (comprised of
                              PPC code) is then transmogrified via Rosetta into Intel instructions.

                              At any rate, this is way off in the weeds now for this group, so we
                              > should probably move back to discussing other cross-architecture
                              > technologies such as WordPerfect-Mac in SheepShaver ;-)
                              >

                              I tried the SheepShaver 3.5 WP, was hoping it would work for me, but even
                              though it's contemporaneous with WP 8 for Linux/Windows, it doesn't handle
                              documents with any sort of complex formatting (i.e., WP macro generated
                              pleading paper), so, I'm still stuck using Wine and WordPerfect for Windows
                              12... :\
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