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Re: [wpmac] PPC Apps in Lion?

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  • em315
    Unfortunately, any Mac hardware first released this summer or later will only boot into Lion or later versions, not into Snow Leopard. So you can t use new
    Message 1 of 29 , Oct 20, 2011
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      Unfortunately, any Mac hardware first released this summer or later will only boot into Lion or later versions, not into Snow Leopard. So you can't use new machines as long as you need PPC applications.

      --- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, Jon Kreisler <jonkreisler@...> wrote:
      >
      > When I need to run a PPC application, I boot
      > the Snow Leopard partition. Otherwise, I just boot into Lion and run native
      > (and SheepShaver) apps.
    • Mikeca
      Apple actually bought the limited rights to Rosetta (which allowed PPC programs to run in Leopard). And that limit was time... Pretty certain Rosetta could be
      Message 2 of 29 , Oct 20, 2011
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        Apple actually bought the limited rights to Rosetta (which allowed PPC programs to run in Leopard). And that limit was time... Pretty certain Rosetta could be tweaked to run in Lion and of course the glaring problems of not being able to run things like Quicken 2007 and MacLinkPlus Deluxe (and there being no apt replacement) is bound to motivate some to work on this. But as yet, I've heard nothing... just people complaining about what Apple did.

        Mikeca
      • Randy B. Singer
        ... My guess is that Rosetta is permanently gone, and that you won t be seeing any sort of replacement for it, ever. First off, Rosetta wasn t an Apple
        Message 3 of 29 , Oct 20, 2011
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          On Oct 20, 2011, at 9:42 AM, Mikeca wrote:

          > Apple actually bought the limited rights to Rosetta (which allowed
          > PPC programs to run in Leopard). And that limit was time... Pretty
          > certain Rosetta could be tweaked to run in Lion and of course the
          > glaring problems of not being able to run things like Quicken 2007
          > and MacLinkPlus Deluxe (and there being no apt replacement) is
          > bound to motivate some to work on this. But as yet, I've heard
          > nothing... just people complaining about what Apple did.

          My guess is that Rosetta is permanently gone, and that you won't be
          seeing any sort of replacement for it, ever.

          First off, Rosetta wasn't an Apple technology. They licensed the
          technology from Transitive (now owned by IBM). There is no telling
          how long the license was for, how much it cost, or even if IBM is
          still willing to license the technology.

          It turns out that others have wondered if Rosetta could be made to
          run under Lion, and so they experimented with installing Rosetta in
          Lion. It turns out that Apple was very serious about discontinuing
          Rosetta when they created Lion. They didn't just remove Rosetta from
          Lion, the modified the entire OS right down to the kernel so that
          everything in the OS that Rosetta needed to hook into is gone.
          Lion's kernel doesn't support Rosetta even if Rosetta is installed.

          See:
          Rosetta does NOT run. Killed by OS kernel (in German):
          <http://www.heise.de/mac-and-i/news/foren/S-rosetta-laeuft-NICHT-Im-
          Kernel-und-im-OS-Userspace-stillgelegt-lesen/forum-205855/
          msg-20536984/read/>

          [Very poor] English translation:
          http://is.gd/dPaLLm

          Additionally Apple has moved OS X to 64-bit. Rosetta was 32-bit.
          <http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews/2009/08/mac-os-x-10-6.ars/5>

          So, assuming that any licensing issues could be overcome, Rosetta
          would have to be re-written from scratch to run under Lion, and Apple
          would have to re-write Lion to work with Rosetta. Given that Apple
          has been telling developers to prepare for the demise of Rosetta for
          years now, it's unlikely that they would suddenly decide that they
          wanted to invest the time and expense to support it again.

          The sole reason for optimism comes from Intuit and Quicken. There
          have been rumors that Intuit has been investigating licensing Rosetta
          technology to bundle with Quicken to avoid having to upgrade Quicken
          for Lion. Even then the rumors have been that it might be as much as
          two years before this comes to fruition.
          http://www.macnn.com/articles/11/06/16/
          could.bring.new.life.to.older.versions.of.quicken/
          So a Lion version of Rosetta technology may be possible, but it is
          also possible that Intuit never got beyond the investigation stage.

          It may also be possible to come up with the equivalent of Sheepshaver
          for PowerPC applications. The thing is that, unlike Rosetta itself,
          which was an amazing technology that broke new ground because of its
          incredible speed, such an emulator would likely provide disappointing
          performance. I suspect that by the time that such a utility could be
          written, that there wouldn't be much demand for it as users will have
          already moved to alternate programs that are Lion-compatible. In any
          case, I haven't heard of any projects to create such an emulator
          program.

          ___________________________________________
          Randy B. Singer
          Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions)

          Macintosh OS X Routine Maintenance
          http://www.macattorney.com/ts.html
          ___________________________________________
        • Chad Smith
          Thanks everyone The news is quite disappointing, but I do appreciate the insight. Thank you for taking the time and effort to explain the situation so well.
          Message 4 of 29 , Oct 21, 2011
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            Thanks everyone

            The news is quite disappointing, but I do appreciate the insight. Thank you
            for taking the time and effort to explain the situation so well.

            It sounds like the best option, (although not great), is dual booting Lion
            and Snow Leopard. It's disappointing to have to do that. However, it's
            even more disappointing that because of Apple's desire to control
            everything, you can't emulate it on top of Lion, like you can with say Linux
            or Windows, (VMWare Fusion / Parallels Desktop / QEMU / Bochs / etc.).

            Thanks again, everyone. If anyone does have some better news, or better
            ideas, please share them.

            I just want to clarify something that Ed said - so brand new Macs that ship
            with Lion will not run other OSes? Even if I wipe the hard drive or put in
            a new hard drive, I can't install any other OS? Is that limited to just
            older versions of Mac OS X, or does that mean no Boot Camp, no Windows, no
            Linux, etc.? If so, that severely lowers my chances of ever buying a new
            Mac.

            Chad W. Smith
          • sardisson
            ... It s not clear from that article (at least not from the English translation), but even if Rosetta-the-process was able to run on 10.7, Apple removed the
            Message 5 of 29 , Oct 21, 2011
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              --- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, "Randy B. Singer" <randy@...> wrote:
              >
              > It turns out that others have wondered if Rosetta could be made to
              > run under Lion, and so they experimented with installing Rosetta in
              > Lion. It turns out that Apple was very serious about discontinuing
              > Rosetta when they created Lion. They didn't just remove Rosetta from
              > Lion, the modified the entire OS right down to the kernel so that
              > everything in the OS that Rosetta needed to hook into is gone.
              > Lion's kernel doesn't support Rosetta even if Rosetta is installed.
              >
              > See:
              > Rosetta does NOT run. Killed by OS kernel (in German):
              > <http://www.heise.de/mac-and-i/news/foren/S-rosetta-laeuft-NICHT-Im-
              > Kernel-und-im-OS-Userspace-stillgelegt-lesen/forum-205855/
              > msg-20536984/read/>
              >
              > [Very poor] English translation:
              > http://is.gd/dPaLLm

              It's not clear from that article (at least not from the English translation), but even if Rosetta-the-process was able to run on 10.7, Apple removed the PPC code from the OS libraries and frameworks in 10.7, so applications themselves couldn't run, because all the OS methods they call won't be found.

              Smokey
            • em315
              ... Of course you can run Boot Camp in new machines, and anything else that is NOT OS X but which you can run in a separate partition. However, you absolutely
              Message 6 of 29 , Oct 21, 2011
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                --- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, Chad Smith <chad78@...> wrote:

                >
                > I just want to clarify something that Edward said - so brand new Macs that ship
                > with Lion will not run other OSes? Even if I wipe the hard drive or put in
                > a new hard drive, I can't install any other OS? Is that limited to just
                > older versions of Mac OS X, or does that mean no Boot Camp, no Windows, no
                > Linux, etc.? If so, that severely lowers my chances of ever buying a new
                > Mac.

                Of course you can run Boot Camp in new machines, and anything else that is NOT OS X but which you can run in a separate partition. However, you absolutely cannot boot an EARLIER version of OS X than the one that the new machine was designed for. So the 2011 MacBook Air that I'm writing this on (I wish I owned it) will NOT boot Snow Leopard. But any Mac first released BEFORE July 2011 will boot Snow Leopard. That's the way Apple has built all its machines for the past ten years. There's an earliest OS version for each machine, and you can't go back beyond the earliest.
              • Chad Smith
                I never knew that. I wonder what the thinking is. I mean I know most people wouldn t ever want to install an earlier version of OS X - but why make the
                Message 7 of 29 , Oct 21, 2011
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                  I never knew that. I wonder what the thinking is. I mean I know most
                  people wouldn't ever want to install an earlier version of OS X - but why
                  make the effort to actively prevent it from happening?

                  I mean it sounds like it's not just a matter of "oh, well the old software
                  won't work because the hardware is new" - the impression I'm getting is that
                  Apple is locking it out on purpose. Which confuses me.

                  The only thing I can think of is if it is related to the liscencing of
                  Rosetta, that they are making sure it won't work for contractual reasons.
                  But from what you just said, it sounds like it is standard procedure for
                  Apple - not something unique to Lion. Again, such a practice is weird to me.

                  Chad W. Smith

                  On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 12:55 PM, em315 <em315@...> wrote:

                  > However, you absolutely cannot boot an EARLIER version of OS X than the one
                  > that the new machine was designed for. So the 2011 MacBook Air that I'm
                  > writing this on (I wish I owned it) will NOT boot Snow Leopard. But any Mac
                  > first released BEFORE July 2011 will boot Snow Leopard. That's the way Apple
                  > has built all its machines for the past ten years. There's an earliest OS
                  > version for each machine, and you can't go back beyond the earliest.
                • Bob Stern
                  ... Apple s end user license agreements for Snow Leopard and Lion do not preclude installing Snow Leopard in a virtual environment, i.e., as a guest OS. They
                  Message 8 of 29 , Oct 21, 2011
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                    >Chad Smith wrote:
                    >
                    >it's even more disappointing that because of Apple's desire to
                    >control everything, you can't emulate it on top of Lion, like you
                    >can with say Linux or Windows, (VMWare Fusion / Parallels Desktop /
                    >QEMU / Bochs / etc.).


                    Apple's end user license agreements for Snow Leopard and Lion do not
                    preclude installing Snow Leopard in a virtual environment, i.e., as a
                    guest OS. They merely require that you purchase as many copies as
                    you install.
                    http://www.apple.com/legal/sla/

                    The Lion end user license agreement has an additional clause
                    permitting installation of *extra* copies of Lion in a virtual
                    environment, but this clause does state or imply that it negates your
                    basic right to install one copy of Snow Leopard in a virtual
                    environment.

                    A member of another list reported success running Virtual Box in Lion
                    and installing Snow Leopard client as a guest (virtual) OS. He said
                    Virtual Box displays a warning about Apple's license agreement, but
                    it then allows you to proceed with the installation. However,
                    Virtual Box apparently wants to avoid responsibility for interpreting
                    and enforcing the OS X license agreements, so it officially refuses
                    to support installation of any OS X client in as a guest OS.
                    https://forums.virtualbox.org/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=31104
                    --

                    Bob Stern
                  • em315
                    ... This is unfortunately incorrect. See, for example: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3187252?start=0&tstart=0 or any of a dozen other discussions of
                    Message 9 of 29 , Oct 21, 2011
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                      --- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, Bob Stern <bob_stern@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Apple's end user license agreements for Snow Leopard and Lion do not
                      > preclude installing Snow Leopard in a virtual environment, i.e., as a
                      > guest OS.

                      This is unfortunately incorrect. See, for example:

                      https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3187252?start=0&tstart=0

                      or any of a dozen other discussions of this subject. I asked an Apple executive whether Apple would now remove the restriction on virtualizing the consumer version of Snow Leopard, and he said no. (Snow Leopard SERVER may still legally be virtualized on Apple hardware, but not ordinary Snow Leopard.)
                    • Randy B. Singer
                      ... It isn t a conspiracy. Apple doesn t actively prevent Macs from running older versions of the OS. New Mac models have new firmware. The OS that they
                      Message 10 of 29 , Oct 21, 2011
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                        On Oct 21, 2011, at 11:01 AM, Chad Smith wrote:

                        > I never knew that. I wonder what the thinking is. I mean I know most
                        > people wouldn't ever want to install an earlier version of OS X -
                        > but why
                        > make the effort to actively prevent it from happening?

                        It isn't a conspiracy. Apple doesn't "actively prevent" Macs from
                        running older versions of the OS.

                        New Mac models have new firmware. The OS that they come with
                        supports that firmware, earlier versions of the Mac OS were written
                        before that firmware existed, so they don't support it. It's that
                        simple.

                        It isn't entirely true that if you purchase a current brand-new Mac
                        that, of course, comes with Lion, that you can't install Snow Leopard
                        on it and have it work. If your new Mac was on the market prior to
                        the introduction of Lion, it will run Snow Leopard just fine. Snow
                        Leopard was written with that model's firmware in mind, and, in fact,
                        that model was previously offered with Snow Leopard. Apple doesn't
                        cripple their Macs so that they can no longer run versions of the OS
                        that they were previously offered with.

                        ___________________________________________
                        Randy B. Singer
                        Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions)

                        Macintosh OS X Routine Maintenance
                        http://www.macattorney.com/ts.html
                        ___________________________________________
                      • em315
                        ... The VMware and Parallels legal department came to a different conclusion, and my conversations with Apple executives suggest that they also agree that you
                        Message 11 of 29 , Oct 22, 2011
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                          --- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, Bob Stern <bob_stern@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Apple's end user license agreements for Snow Leopard and Lion do not
                          > preclude installing Snow Leopard in a virtual environment, i.e., as a
                          > guest OS. They merely require that you purchase as many copies as
                          > you install.
                          > http://www.apple.com/legal/sla/

                          The VMware and Parallels legal department came to a different conclusion, and my conversations with Apple executives suggest that they also agree that you can't legally virtualize Snow Leopard or any earlier version (although it's perfectly legal to virtualize any version of Lion and the SERVER versions of Leopard and Snow Leopard).

                          See, for example,

                          https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3195457?start=0&tstart=0

                          VMware and Parallels include code that prevents you from installing Snow Leopard. I've tried it - they both popped up messages explicitly saying that they will not install the version of OS X that I tried to install. But they both will install Snow Leopard SERVER.

                          Someone whose reliability I trust experimented with Snow Leopard in VirtualBox (the open-source counterpart of VMware and Parallels) under Lion. VirtualBox did, more or less, complete the installation of Snow Leopard, but the result was unusable. It mostly never booted, and when it did, it needed twenty minutes to reach the desktop, and then locked up afterward.
                        • em315
                          ... As of October 22, 2011, any MacBook Pro, iMac, or Mac Pro that you buy now can boot into Snow Leopard or Lion That will change as soon as new versions of
                          Message 12 of 29 , Oct 22, 2011
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                            --- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, Chad Smith <chad78@...> wrote:
                            >

                            > I just want to clarify something that Ed said - so brand new Macs that ship
                            > with Lion will not run other OSes? Even if I wipe the hard drive or put in
                            > a new hard drive, I can't install any other OS? Is that limited to just
                            > older versions of Mac OS X, or does that mean no Boot Camp, no Windows, no
                            > Linux, etc.? If so, that severely lowers my chances of ever buying a new
                            > Mac.
                            >

                            As of October 22, 2011, any MacBook Pro, iMac, or Mac Pro that you buy now can boot into Snow Leopard or Lion That will change as soon as new versions of those machines are released. They will boot only into Lion or later.

                            The MacBook Air and Mac Mini models on sale now will boot only into Lion.
                          • J.J. McVeigh
                            ... It is a matter not only of firmware, but of how the OS is constructed. When Apple introduced OS X, it was possible to acquire OSX and to install it on Macs
                            Message 13 of 29 , Oct 22, 2011
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                              Randy B. Singer wrote:

                              >It isn't a conspiracy. Apple doesn't "actively prevent" Macs from
                              >running older versions of the OS.
                              >
                              >New Mac models have new firmware. The OS that they come with
                              >supports that firmware, earlier versions of the Mac OS were written
                              >before that firmware existed, so they don't support it. It's that
                              >simple.

                              It is a matter not only of firmware, but of how the OS is constructed.

                              When Apple introduced OS X, it was possible to acquire OSX and to
                              install it on Macs that already had OS9 installed. It was then
                              possible to boot either into OS9 or into OS X, at the user's option.

                              The dual-boot Macs included many G3s and G4s. Apple did not support
                              OS X on 604e PowerPC machines that had third-party G3 processor
                              daughter cards installed.

                              For some time after that, Apple sold Macs that would not boot into
                              OS9, but could run OS-9-flavored Classic.

                              Eventually, Apple began selling Macs that could not/would not run
                              Classic, and an OS that did not support Classic (OS 10.5).

                              These were design decisions by Apple.
                              --

                              J.J. McVeigh
                            • Randy B. Singer
                              ... Well, yes, Apple has decided at certain points to cut off backwards compatibility for some technology. But only after, as you pointed out, allowing for a
                              Message 14 of 29 , Oct 22, 2011
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                                > Randy B. Singer wrote:
                                >
                                > >It isn't a conspiracy. Apple doesn't "actively prevent" Macs from
                                > >running older versions of the OS.

                                On Oct 22, 2011, at 3:05 PM, J.J. McVeigh wrote:
                                >
                                > These were design decisions by Apple.

                                Well, yes, Apple has decided at certain points to cut off backwards
                                compatibility for some technology. But only after, as you pointed
                                out, allowing for a transition period.

                                That's more or less what happened with Rosetta. With Rosetta Apple
                                allowed for quite an extended transition period.

                                That's different than the fact that Snow Leopard can't run on many
                                new Macs. In general, OS X these days is specific to the current
                                firmware that Apple sells.
                                http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2681

                                Neither situation is a conspiracy.

                                ___________________________________________
                                Randy B. Singer
                                Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions)

                                Macintosh OS X Routine Maintenance
                                http://www.macattorney.com/ts.html
                                ___________________________________________
                              • Chad Smith
                                I get the decision to stop supporting OS 9. I even understand licensing issues with Rosetta. But since Apple designs the hardware and the software ...
                                Message 15 of 29 , Oct 23, 2011
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                                  I get the decision to stop supporting OS 9.

                                  I even understand licensing issues with Rosetta.

                                  But since Apple designs the hardware and the software ... including the
                                  firmware... they could easily make it possible - if they wanted to - to
                                  install whatever flavor of OS X you wanted. As has been pointed out, you
                                  can still install Windows or Linux. It *HAS TO* be a purposeful action by
                                  Apple to limit user choice. There's no way around it. Windows XP is over
                                  10 years old, and it runs on any Intel Mac. Any "Firmware issue" i created
                                  by Apple - on purpose.

                                  And that decision is one I am 100% against. It doesn't even make sense to me
                                  if I look at Apple as nothing but a greedy corporation. If I have bought a
                                  brand new Mac, I have, included in that price, paid the license fee for
                                  Lion. Whether or not I use that OS is up to me. They got their money. And
                                  it is very likely I paid for the license for the older OS X as well. But by
                                  limiting the choice, they prevent even the possibility of anyone buying a
                                  license of Snow Leopard from Apple to run on my late 2011 Mac. It's just
                                  stupid no matter how I look at it.

                                  *- Chad W. Smith*
                                  *"I like a man who's middle name is W."*
                                  President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya


                                  On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 1:36 AM, Randy B. Singer <randy@...>wrote:

                                  > **
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > > Randy B. Singer wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > >It isn't a conspiracy. Apple doesn't "actively prevent" Macs from
                                  > > >running older versions of the OS.
                                  >
                                  > On Oct 22, 2011, at 3:05 PM, J.J. McVeigh wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > These were design decisions by Apple.
                                  >
                                  > Well, yes, Apple has decided at certain points to cut off backwards
                                  > compatibility for some technology. But only after, as you pointed
                                  > out, allowing for a transition period.
                                  >
                                  > That's more or less what happened with Rosetta. With Rosetta Apple
                                  > allowed for quite an extended transition period.
                                  >
                                  > That's different than the fact that Snow Leopard can't run on many
                                  > new Macs. In general, OS X these days is specific to the current
                                  > firmware that Apple sells.
                                  > http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2681
                                  >
                                  > Neither situation is a conspiracy.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ___________________________________________
                                  > Randy B. Singer
                                  > Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions)
                                  >
                                  > Macintosh OS X Routine Maintenance
                                  > http://www.macattorney.com/ts.html
                                  > ___________________________________________
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Patrick Sheffield
                                  The problem is that the newer hardware - say the gfx card - will not have existing drivers in the older OS. Sometimes this can be worked around by installing
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Oct 24, 2011
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                                    The problem is that the newer hardware - say the gfx card - will not have existing drivers in the older OS. Sometimes this can be worked around by installing the proper drivers into the older OS, but sometimes it's CPU support that is built into the kernel.

                                    Patrick Sheffield
                                    Sheffield Softworks

                                    On Oct 23, 2011, at 9:43 AM, Chad Smith wrote:

                                    > I get the decision to stop supporting OS 9.
                                    >
                                    > I even understand licensing issues with Rosetta.
                                    >
                                    > But since Apple designs the hardware and the software ... including the
                                    > firmware... they could easily make it possible - if they wanted to - to
                                    > install whatever flavor of OS X you wanted. As has been pointed out, you
                                    > can still install Windows or Linux. It *HAS TO* be a purposeful action by
                                    > Apple to limit user choice. There's no way around it. Windows XP is over
                                    > 10 years old, and it runs on any Intel Mac. Any "Firmware issue" i created
                                    > by Apple - on purpose.
                                    >
                                    > And that decision is one I am 100% against. It doesn't even make sense to me
                                    > if I look at Apple as nothing but a greedy corporation. If I have bought a
                                    > brand new Mac, I have, included in that price, paid the license fee for
                                    > Lion. Whether or not I use that OS is up to me. They got their money. And
                                    > it is very likely I paid for the license for the older OS X as well. But by
                                    > limiting the choice, they prevent even the possibility of anyone buying a
                                    > license of Snow Leopard from Apple to run on my late 2011 Mac. It's just
                                    > stupid no matter how I look at it.
                                    >
                                    > *- Chad W. Smith*
                                    > *"I like a man who's middle name is W."*
                                    > President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya
                                    >
                                    > On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 1:36 AM, Randy B. Singer <randy@...>wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > **
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > > Randy B. Singer wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > >It isn't a conspiracy. Apple doesn't "actively prevent" Macs from
                                    > > > >running older versions of the OS.
                                    > >
                                    > > On Oct 22, 2011, at 3:05 PM, J.J. McVeigh wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > These were design decisions by Apple.
                                    > >
                                    > > Well, yes, Apple has decided at certain points to cut off backwards
                                    > > compatibility for some technology. But only after, as you pointed
                                    > > out, allowing for a transition period.
                                    > >
                                    > > That's more or less what happened with Rosetta. With Rosetta Apple
                                    > > allowed for quite an extended transition period.
                                    > >
                                    > > That's different than the fact that Snow Leopard can't run on many
                                    > > new Macs. In general, OS X these days is specific to the current
                                    > > firmware that Apple sells.
                                    > > http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2681
                                    > >
                                    > > Neither situation is a conspiracy.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ___________________________________________
                                    > > Randy B. Singer
                                    > > Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions)
                                    > >
                                    > > Macintosh OS X Routine Maintenance
                                    > > http://www.macattorney.com/ts.html
                                    > > ___________________________________________
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >



                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • J.J. McVeigh
                                    ... With respect, I do not believe that anyone has used the word conspiracy, other than you yourself. I used the phrase design decisions. Chad Smith
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Oct 24, 2011
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                                      Randy B. Singer wrote:

                                      > > Randy B. Singer wrote:
                                      >>
                                      >> >It isn't a conspiracy. Apple doesn't "actively prevent" Macs from
                                      >> >running older versions of the OS.
                                      >
                                      >On Oct 22, 2011, at 3:05 PM, J.J. McVeigh wrote:
                                      >>
                                      >> These were design decisions by Apple.
                                      >
                                      >Well, yes, Apple has decided at certain points to cut off backwards
                                      >compatibility for some technology. But only after, as you pointed
                                      >out, allowing for a transition period.
                                      >
                                      >That's more or less what happened with Rosetta. With Rosetta Apple
                                      >allowed for quite an extended transition period.
                                      >
                                      >That's different than the fact that Snow Leopard can't run on many
                                      >new Macs. In general, OS X these days is specific to the current
                                      >firmware that Apple sells.
                                      >http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2681
                                      >
                                      >Neither situation is a conspiracy.

                                      With respect, I do not believe that anyone has used the word
                                      "conspiracy," other than you yourself. I used the phrase "design
                                      decisions." Chad Smith asked, "... why make the effort to actively
                                      prevent it from happening?"

                                      The decision, after a certain point, not to include in the firmware
                                      an instruction set providing the ability to boot into OS 9 was a
                                      design decision by Apple.

                                      The decision not to include code in the release of OS 10.6 that would
                                      allow Power PC machines to run that OS was a design decision by Apple.

                                      The decision not to include code in the release of OS 10.7 that would
                                      allow Intel machines to run programs originally written to run on
                                      Power PC Macs was yet another design decision by Apple.

                                      Please note that I am not necessarily disagreeing with each of
                                      Apple's design decisions. Apple had its reasons, in each instance.
                                      In each instance, Apple could have taken another tack. Apple chose
                                      not to do so, and had its reasons for choosing not to do so.





                                      --

                                      J.J. McVeigh
                                    • em315
                                      Perhaps you might want to take this up in one of the Apple forums, where someone at Apple might read it? There s not much anyone here can do about it, no
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Oct 24, 2011
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                                        Perhaps you might want to take this up in one of the Apple forums, where someone at Apple might read it? There's not much anyone here can do about it, no matter how much anyone might agree with it.

                                        --- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, Chad Smith <chad78@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I get the decision to stop supporting OS 9.
                                        >
                                        > I even understand licensing issues with Rosetta.
                                        >
                                        > But since Apple designs the hardware and the software ... including the
                                        > firmware... they could easily make it possible - if they wanted to - to
                                        > install whatever flavor of OS X you wanted. As has been pointed out, you
                                        > can still install Windows or Linux. It *HAS TO* be a purposeful action by
                                        > Apple to limit user choice. There's no way around it. Windows XP is over
                                        > 10 years old, and it runs on any Intel Mac. Any "Firmware issue" i created
                                        > by Apple - on purpose.
                                        >
                                      • Chad Smith
                                        Again, Apple controls the hardware and the software. So they had to write / have written the drivers for the new hardware on the new OS. It would stand to
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Oct 24, 2011
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                                          Again, Apple controls the hardware and the software. So they had to write /
                                          have written the drivers for the new hardware on the new OS. It would stand
                                          to reason that if they so chose, they could port those same drivers to the
                                          older OS.

                                          We're not talking about incapable OSes - in fact I haven't heard of any
                                          "Lion Only" applications. The only incompatibility is Lion can't run
                                          everything Snow Leopard can run - not the other way around (I'm talking
                                          about the PPC apps).

                                          It is 100% Apple choice. And one I completely fail to see the logic in, and
                                          do not appreciate.

                                          However, since Snow Leopard Server will run on VMWare / et. al. - There is a
                                          work around. So I will live it.

                                          My statement about "seriously questioning ever buying a new Mac" was if no
                                          other OS would run on it. Since Linux / Windows / etc. are still
                                          compatible, I'm ok. When I bought my first new Mac, (Original White MacBook
                                          mid-2006) - I justified the cost by telling myself "It can run Mac, Window,
                                          and Linux - all at the same time... So it's like getting 3 computers - but
                                          only better, because they are all in the same portable, stylish box!" I
                                          rarely use Windows, and only really "play with" Linux - but they are still
                                          installed on my MacBook Pro - just in case.

                                          The suggestion to put this on an Apple Forum is a good one. I'll put my
                                          thoughts together and do so.

                                          Thanks to everyone for their insight and information.

                                          *- Chad W. Smith*
                                          *"I like a man who's middle name is W."*
                                          President George W. Bush - February 10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya


                                          On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 11:22 AM, Patrick Sheffield <
                                          psheffield@...> wrote:

                                          > **
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > The problem is that the newer hardware - say the gfx card - will not have
                                          > existing drivers in the older OS. Sometimes this can be worked around by
                                          > installing the proper drivers into the older OS, but sometimes it's CPU
                                          > support that is built into the kernel.
                                          >
                                          > Patrick Sheffield
                                          > Sheffield Softworks
                                          >


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Rick Albright
                                          I m sorry. I mean no disrespect, but I m having difficulty understanding the relevance of this topic to WordPerfect. Does this mean that
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Oct 24, 2011
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                                            I'm sorry. I mean no disrespect, but I'm having difficulty understanding the relevance of this topic to WordPerfect. Does this mean that SheepShaver/WordPerfect will not run under Lion? If not, why are we debating this?

                                            ===========================================================
                                            Rick Albright
                                            logres@...

                                            Writing the Past, Writing the Future: Time and Narrative in Gothic and Sensation Fiction
                                            http://www.powells.com/biblio/72-9780980149647-0
                                          • TradleyS
                                            If we can t use PowerPC software, we cannot use SheepShaver. And that s not good in my book. What s lame about this is I have several applications I ve used on
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Nov 6, 2011
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                                              If we can't use PowerPC software, we cannot use SheepShaver. And that's not good in my book.
                                              What's lame about this is I have several applications I've used on Snow Leopard (one good example being Plants VS. Zombies) and they just suddenly stop working here on Lion. And it's not like I can just update it like that (I didn't get it from the App Store).
                                              We definitely should find a way to overcome this.
                                              Yeah, I understand that we are trying to move forward. But it's also good to experience the past too.
                                              Is there anything anyone can do?


                                              --- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, Rick Albright <logres@...> wrote:

                                              > I'm sorry. I mean no disrespect, but I'm having difficulty understanding the relevance of this topic to WordPerfect. Does this mean that SheepShaver/WordPerfect will not run under Lion? If not, why are we debating this?
                                            • Joseph Bush
                                              The following discussion is verbose in places, but is on the whole encouraging: http://www.emaculation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=7202 Joe ... [Non-text
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Nov 7, 2011
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                                                The following discussion is verbose in places, but is on the whole encouraging:

                                                http://www.emaculation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=7202

                                                Joe

                                                On Nov 6, 2011, at 4:22 PM, TradleyS <tradley11@...> wrote:

                                                > If we can't use PowerPC software, we cannot use SheepShaver. And that's not good in my book.
                                                > What's lame about this is I have several applications I've used on Snow Leopard (one good example being Plants VS. Zombies) and they just suddenly stop working here on Lion. And it's not like I can just update it like that (I didn't get it from the App Store).
                                                > We definitely should find a way to overcome this.
                                                > Yeah, I understand that we are trying to move forward. But it's also good to experience the past too.
                                                > Is there anything anyone can do?
                                                >
                                                > --- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, Rick Albright <logres@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > > I'm sorry. I mean no disrespect, but I'm having difficulty understanding the relevance of this topic to WordPerfect. Does this mean that SheepShaver/WordPerfect will not run under Lion? If not, why are we debating this?
                                                >


                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Chad Smith
                                                Actually, SheepShaver is still usable under Lion, thankfully. Which I assume means it must be a Universal Binary, running under PPC and Intel chips. I was
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Nov 7, 2011
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                                                  Actually, SheepShaver is still usable under Lion, thankfully. Which I
                                                  assume means it must be a Universal Binary, running under PPC and Intel
                                                  chips.

                                                  I was bummed about PvZ as well, since I bought it a long time ago, and not
                                                  only had to buy it again, but now lost all my progress and have to start
                                                  over.

                                                  *- Chad W. Smith*

                                                  On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 8:22 PM, TradleyS <tradley11@...> wrote:

                                                  > If we can't use PowerPC software, we cannot use SheepShaver. And that's
                                                  > not good in my book. [....]
                                                • em315
                                                  As you say, John s SheepShaver-WordPerfect Install setup and my WPMacApp Installer setup (both available here in the Links/SheepShaver and Basilisk folder)
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Nov 7, 2011
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                                                    As you say, John's SheepShaver-WordPerfect Install setup and my WPMacApp Installer setup (both available here in the Links/SheepShaver and Basilisk folder) work perfectly well under Lion, and both are based on SheepShaver.

                                                    --- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, Chad Smith <chad78@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Actually, SheepShaver is still usable under Lion, thankfully. Which I
                                                    > assume means it must be a Universal Binary, running under PPC and Intel
                                                    > chips.
                                                  • John R
                                                    SheepShaver is a universal binary, which means it will run under Lion. See message #6948. Thus WordPerfect should run as well under Lion and current hardware
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Nov 7, 2011
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                                                      SheepShaver is a universal binary, which means it will run under Lion. See message #6948.

                                                      Thus WordPerfect should run as well under Lion and current hardware as it did under system 6.02 and a Mac II.

                                                      Just ten times faster.

                                                      That said, I'd be happy to see reports from users of SS and Lion.

                                                      John R.



                                                      --- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, "em315" <em315@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > As you say, John's SheepShaver-WordPerfect Install setup and my WPMacApp Installer setup (both available here in the Links/SheepShaver and Basilisk folder) work perfectly well under Lion, and both are based on SheepShaver.
                                                      >
                                                      > --- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, Chad Smith <chad78@> wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Actually, SheepShaver is still usable under Lion, thankfully. Which I
                                                      > > assume means it must be a Universal Binary, running under PPC and Intel
                                                      > > chips.
                                                      >
                                                    • Chad Smith
                                                      I use SS under Lion. Works fine, other than I can t get it to go full screen. Which apparently is a known issue. *- Chad W. Smith*
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Nov 7, 2011
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                                                        I use SS under Lion. Works fine, other than I can't get it to go full
                                                        screen. Which apparently is a known issue.

                                                        *- Chad W. Smith*

                                                        On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 7:37 PM, John R <johnrethorst@...> wrote:

                                                        > SheepShaver is a universal binary, which means it will run under Lion. See
                                                        > message #6948.
                                                        >
                                                        > Thus WordPerfect should run as well under Lion and current hardware as it
                                                        > did under system 6.02 and a Mac II.
                                                        >
                                                        > Just ten times faster.
                                                        >
                                                        > That said, I'd be happy to see reports from users of SS and Lion.
                                                      • em315
                                                        With my WPMacApp Appliance setup, you can hold down the Command key while launching the application, and it opens in a quasi-full screen mode (no visible dock,
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Nov 7, 2011
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                                                          With my WPMacApp Appliance setup, you can hold down the Command key while launching the application, and it opens in a quasi-full screen mode (no visible dock, OS X menubar hidden until you move the mouse to the top of the screen, only a Sheepshaver title bar at the top). If you ever want to restore windowed mode, you can do that by holding down Option when launching the application.

                                                          --- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, Chad Smith <chad78@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > I use SS under Lion. Works fine, other than I can't get it to go full
                                                          > screen. Which apparently is a known issue.
                                                          >
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