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Re: [wpmac] Corel Bought Out

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  • Tom Wyrick
    I think he means Painter is the most popular software package that allows painting on the computer using tools that simulate traditional art products (chalk,
    Message 1 of 29 , Nov 30, 2009
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      I think he means Painter is the most popular software package that allows painting on the computer using tools that simulate traditional art products (chalk, watercolor paints, crayons, pencils, etc.).



      On Nov 30, 2009, at 3:49 AM, topcatdrc wrote:

      > Randy:
      >
      > What do you mean by "the premier natural media art program"?
      >
      > "Art" programs (generally) 'fall into' one of three categories:
      > Painting, Drawing, or Illustration.
      >
      > Scanning and/or Digital Picture "retouching", BTW, are 'pixel editing' (paint) applications that happen to involve 'true color' depths.
      >
      > Just curious.
      >
      > Sincerely,
      >
      > Thomas Clayton
      >
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • em315
      I ve been following the word-processing market closely since 1985, and this is the first time I ve ever heard of that episode, so I d be very interested to
      Message 2 of 29 , Nov 30, 2009
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        I've been following the word-processing market closely since 1985, and this is the first time I've ever heard of that episode, so I'd be very interested to learn any more details.

        There was certainly an episode in the '80s when Microsoft was giving away copies of Excel (not Word) but it's news to me that any government got upset. Perhaps you're thinking of the bundling of Internet Explorer with Windows?


        --- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, Doug Auwarter <dauwarter@...> wrote:
        >
        > At the beginning. It may have been the first time they did something
        > like that, and the practice ultimately got them in all kinds of hot
        > water. I don't remember the details - I'm not a very enthusiastic
        > Microsoft historian, but they did it several times to different
        > software companies before various governments decided to put a stop
        > to it.
        > Best,
        > Doug
        >
        > On Nov 30, 2009, at 12:52 AM, Chad Smith wrote:
        >
        > > What are you talking about? When did Microsoft ever give away Word
        > > for free?
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Kevin Jaques, B.A., LL.B.
        I thought openDoc was brilliant! But I wasn t aware that anybody developed for it. No doubt they would be mad. But surely somewhere on an Apple Back Burner is
        Message 3 of 29 , Nov 30, 2009
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          I thought openDoc was brilliant! But I wasn't aware that anybody
          developed for it. No doubt they would be mad. But surely somewhere on
          an Apple Back Burner is the notion of bringing openDoc into OS X. That
          would be awesome. If they did, and sent a nice apology, then we could
          hope.

          > Posted by: "Randy B. Singer" randy@... randybrucesinger
          > Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:29 am (PST)
          >
          > On Nov 28, 2009, at 12:37 PM, Cydne wrote:
          >
          > > Does this offer any hopes that they might develop or sell to someone
          > > willing to develop an updated WordPerfect for Mac? One can dream!
          >
          > ...However, I'm not sure
          > that most of us will live long enough to see Corel's corporate memory
          > fade for how Apple pulled the rug out from under them and
          > discontinued OpenDoc after Corel invested a ton of mone....
          --
          Sincerely

          Kevin Jaques, B.A., LL.B.
          of the
          Jaques Law Office

          2912 Rae Street
          Regina, Saskatchewan
          Canada, S4S 1R5

          T: 306-359-3041
          F: 306-525-4173

          visit our web site at http://www.hierlaw.com
        • geoffrey mendelson
          ... The only time I ever heard of it was when someone I knew found a Microsoft Mouse, new in the box, in a junk bin at a computer store for $25, marked down
          Message 4 of 29 , Nov 30, 2009
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            On Nov 30, 2009, at 5:54 PM, em315 wrote:

            > I've been following the word-processing market closely since 1985,
            > and this is the first time I've ever heard of that episode, so I'd
            > be very interested to learn any more details.
            >
            > There was certainly an episode in the '80s when Microsoft was giving
            > away copies of Excel (not Word) but it's news to me that any
            > government got upset. Perhaps you're thinking of the bundling of
            > Internet Explorer with Windows?
            >

            The only time I ever heard of it was when someone I knew found a
            Microsoft Mouse, new in the box, in a junk bin at a computer store for
            $25, marked down from over $100. Included with it was version 1.0 of
            Word for the PC. It just so happened that it was at the time where
            Microsoft had just released a new version of Word (Word for Windows
            4?) and anyone who had bought an older version in the last 30 days
            could get the latest one for free. They sent in the
            paperwork and got it.

            Note that when they came out, WordPerfect for Windows 5.1 and later
            5.2, were so badly done that no one would in their right mind use them.

            Geoff.
            --
            geoffrey mendelson N3OWJ/4X1GM
            Jerusalem Israel geoffreymendelson@...
          • Doug Auwarter
            Here s an entry from Wikipedia (not that it s an uncompromised authority): While WordPerfect retained a majority of the retail shelf sales of word processors,
            Message 5 of 29 , Nov 30, 2009
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              Here's an entry from Wikipedia (not that it's an uncompromised
              authority):

              While WordPerfect retained a majority of the retail shelf sales of
              word processors, Microsoft gained market share by including Word for
              Windows in its Windows product on new PCs. Microsoft gave discounts
              for Windows to OEMs who included Word on their PCs. When new PC
              buyers found Word installed on their new PC, Word began to dominate
              market share of desktop word processing. Among the remaining avid
              users of WordPerfect are many law firms and academics who favor the
              WordPerfect features such as macros and reveal codes. Corel now
              caters to these markets, with, for example, a major sale to the
              United States Department of Justice in 2005 [2]. In November 2004,
              Novell filed an antitrust lawsuit against Microsoft for alleged anti-
              competitive behavior (viz, tying Word to sales of Windows) that
              Novell claims led to loss of WordPerfect market share [3].

              I do know that at that time, some people received coupons to get a
              free copy, and that it was also included for free with an issue of PC
              magazine. This was at the same time that Microsoft was attempting to
              buy software developers that it wanted and if attempts were stalling,
              they'd threaten to put out a similar product and sell it for next to
              nothing or give it away for free.

              I'm not Microsoft bashing; I use their products myself. But there
              were certainly some dark days in the company's past that I'm sure
              they regret.

              Best,
              Doug


              On Nov 30, 2009, at 9:54 AM, em315 wrote:

              > I've been following the word-processing market closely since 1985,
              > and this is the first time I've ever heard of that episode, so I'd
              > be very interested to learn any more details.
              >
              > There was certainly an episode in the '80s when Microsoft was
              > giving away copies of Excel (not Word) but it's news to me that any
              > government got upset. Perhaps you're thinking of the bundling of
              > Internet Explorer with Windows?
              >
              > --- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, Doug Auwarter
              > <dauwarter@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > At the beginning. It may have been the first time they did something
              > > like that, and the practice ultimately got them in all kinds of hot
              > > water. I don't remember the details - I'm not a very enthusiastic
              > > Microsoft historian, but they did it several times to different
              > > software companies before various governments decided to put a stop
              > > to it.
              > > Best,
              > > Doug
              > >
              > > On Nov 30, 2009, at 12:52 AM, Chad Smith wrote:
              > >
              > > > What are you talking about? When did Microsoft ever give away Word
              > > > for free?
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.
              I just tried Painter Demo and was able to cure Cat eye in a recent digital Picture of my cat. A lot of programs have Red eye for people. But it you ever take a
              Message 6 of 29 , Nov 30, 2009
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                I just tried Painter Demo and was able to cure Cat eye in a recent
                digital Picture of my cat. A lot of programs have Red eye for people.
                But it you ever take a picture of a cat they have green or actually opal
                (greenish blue Eye) most software is useless for cats.

                Tom Wyrick wrote:
                >
                >
                > I think he means Painter is the most popular software package that
                > allows painting on the computer using tools that simulate traditional
                > art products (chalk, watercolor paints, crayons, pencils, etc.).
                >
                > On Nov 30, 2009, at 3:49 AM, topcatdrc wrote:
                >
                > > Randy:
                > >
                > > What do you mean by "the premier natural media art program"?
                > >
                > > "Art" programs (generally) 'fall into' one of three categories:
                > > Painting, Drawing, or Illustration.
                > >
                > > Scanning and/or Digital Picture "retouching", BTW, are 'pixel
                > editing' (paint) applications that happen to involve 'true color' depths.
                > >
                > > Just curious.
                > >
                > > Sincerely,
                > >
                > > Thomas Clayton
                > >
                > >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >

                --
                Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. "If it's Fixed, Don't Break it"
                616 Liberty Street Martinsville, Va 24112-1809
                Phone: 276-632-5045 Cell: 276-732-7781 Fax: 276-632-0868
                http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org
                mailto:pjones1@...
              • Angela Kessler
                I remember when Microsoft was giving Word away, but I can t produce any documentation, just my memory. And for the record, I didn t think there was anything
                Message 7 of 29 , Nov 30, 2009
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                  I remember when Microsoft was giving Word away, but I can't produce any documentation, just my memory. And for the record, I didn't think there was anything wrong with WP 5.1/5.2 for Windows; it was certainly a lot better than Word ever has been, IMHO.

                  --- On Mon, 11/30/09, geoffrey mendelson <geoffreymendelson@...> wrote:

                  From: geoffrey mendelson <geoffreymendelson@...>
                  Subject: Re: [wpmac] Corel Bought Out
                  To: wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Monday, November 30, 2009, 4:15 PM







                   











                  On Nov 30, 2009, at 5:54 PM, em315 wrote:



                  > I've been following the word-processing market closely since 1985,

                  > and this is the first time I've ever heard of that episode, so I'd

                  > be very interested to learn any more details.

                  >

                  > There was certainly an episode in the '80s when Microsoft was giving

                  > away copies of Excel (not Word) but it's news to me that any

                  > government got upset. Perhaps you're thinking of the bundling of

                  > Internet Explorer with Windows?

                  >



                  The only time I ever heard of it was when someone I knew found a

                  Microsoft Mouse, new in the box, in a junk bin at a computer store for

                  $25, marked down from over $100. Included with it was version 1.0 of

                  Word for the PC. It just so happened that it was at the time where

                  Microsoft had just released a new version of Word (Word for Windows

                  4?) and anyone who had bought an older version in the last 30 days

                  could get the latest one for free. They sent in the

                  paperwork and got it.



                  Note that when they came out, WordPerfect for Windows 5.1 and later

                  5.2, were so badly done that no one would in their right mind use them.



                  Geoff.

                  --

                  geoffrey mendelson N3OWJ/4X1GM

                  Jerusalem Israel geoffreymendelson@ gmail.com

























                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • em315
                  I was already writing for PC Magazine in those days - the copy of Word that got given away was a demo that wouldn t save or print, so you couldn t use it for
                  Message 8 of 29 , Nov 30, 2009
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                    I was already writing for PC Magazine in those days - the copy of Word that got given away was a demo that wouldn't save or print, so you couldn't use it for any work. I remember finding a French version in a French computer magazine too. I suppose it's possible to call that "giving away a copy of Word" but it was a copy that couldn't save or print, so there wasn't much that you could do with it.

                    --- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, Doug Auwarter <dauwarter@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Here's an entry from Wikipedia (not that it's an uncompromised
                    > authority):
                    >
                    > While WordPerfect retained a majority of the retail shelf sales of
                    > word processors, Microsoft gained market share by including Word for
                    > Windows in its Windows product on new PCs. Microsoft gave discounts
                    > for Windows to OEMs who included Word on their PCs. When new PC
                    > buyers found Word installed on their new PC, Word began to dominate
                    > market share of desktop word processing. Among the remaining avid
                    > users of WordPerfect are many law firms and academics who favor the
                    > WordPerfect features such as macros and reveal codes. Corel now
                    > caters to these markets, with, for example, a major sale to the
                    > United States Department of Justice in 2005 [2]. In November 2004,
                    > Novell filed an antitrust lawsuit against Microsoft for alleged anti-
                    > competitive behavior (viz, tying Word to sales of Windows) that
                    > Novell claims led to loss of WordPerfect market share [3].
                    >
                    > I do know that at that time, some people received coupons to get a
                    > free copy, and that it was also included for free with an issue of PC
                    > magazine. This was at the same time that Microsoft was attempting to
                    > buy software developers that it wanted and if attempts were stalling,
                    > they'd threaten to put out a similar product and sell it for next to
                    > nothing or give it away for free.
                    >
                    > I'm not Microsoft bashing; I use their products myself. But there
                    > were certainly some dark days in the company's past that I'm sure
                    > they regret.
                    >
                    > Best,
                    > Doug
                    >
                    >
                    > On Nov 30, 2009, at 9:54 AM, em315 wrote:
                    >
                    > > I've been following the word-processing market closely since 1985,
                    > > and this is the first time I've ever heard of that episode, so I'd
                    > > be very interested to learn any more details.
                    > >
                    > > There was certainly an episode in the '80s when Microsoft was
                    > > giving away copies of Excel (not Word) but it's news to me that any
                    > > government got upset. Perhaps you're thinking of the bundling of
                    > > Internet Explorer with Windows?
                    > >
                    > > --- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, Doug Auwarter
                    > > <dauwarter@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > At the beginning. It may have been the first time they did something
                    > > > like that, and the practice ultimately got them in all kinds of hot
                    > > > water. I don't remember the details - I'm not a very enthusiastic
                    > > > Microsoft historian, but they did it several times to different
                    > > > software companies before various governments decided to put a stop
                    > > > to it.
                    > > > Best,
                    > > > Doug
                    > > >
                    > > > On Nov 30, 2009, at 12:52 AM, Chad Smith wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > > What are you talking about? When did Microsoft ever give away Word
                    > > > > for free?
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Daryl Chinn
                    Both WordPerfect and Microsoft gave heavy discounts to educational users—students and faculty at colleges and K-12 users. At various times in my wife s
                    Message 9 of 29 , Nov 30, 2009
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                      Both WordPerfect and Microsoft gave heavy discounts to educational users—students and faculty at colleges and K-12 users. At various times in my wife's 30-year teaching career at a California State University, you could buy a legit MS Suite for as little as $10.00.  This was available to the entire California State University community (over 100,000 students alone).  I remember we had to print the MS Word 5.1 manual because we didn't have a hard copy.  

                      As a person who worked in the schools, I received discounts, perhaps not as steep, from WordPerfect.
                      Daryl



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.
                      Knowing Bill Gates History as related to Apple, Gates didn t consider it Dark. Bill and the two Co-founders of Apple went to the same University and studied
                      Message 10 of 29 , Nov 30, 2009
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                        Knowing Bill Gates History as related to Apple, Gates didn't consider it
                        Dark. Bill and the two Co-founders of Apple went to the same University
                        and studied Computer Science. When Steve Wozniak, and Steve Jobs decided
                        to go into partnership together. Gates wanted to get in as well. They
                        turned him down flat. (Supposed he was a less than average on his
                        knowledge of Computer Science.) He held a life long grudge and did
                        anything and everything he could whether it was with full integrity or
                        not to dominate the Market. and he did. At first using a carrot and
                        stick approach with Computer manufacturers. (I will help you all as long
                        as you use my software, if you don't I'll make it tough to sell your
                        computers, purchasing software from developers for pennies on the
                        thousands of dollars and so on). And his company does.

                        I use MS Office myself because I have no choice. I use WP from time to
                        time. It still handles Envelopes a lot better. TI trust MS only as much
                        as I need some of their software. Are they honest Hxxx no.

                        Doug Auwarter wrote:
                        > Here's an entry from Wikipedia (not that it's an uncompromised
                        > authority):
                        >
                        > While WordPerfect retained a majority of the retail shelf sales of
                        > word processors, Microsoft gained market share by including Word for
                        > Windows in its Windows product on new PCs. Microsoft gave discounts
                        > for Windows to OEM's who included Word on their PCs. When new PC
                        > buyers found Word installed on their new PC, Word began to dominate
                        > market share of desktop word processing. Among the remaining avid
                        > users of WordPerfect are many law firms and academics who favor the
                        > WordPerfect features such as macros and reveal codes. Corel now
                        > caters to these markets, with, for example, a major sale to the
                        > United States Department of Justice in 2005 [2]. In November 2004,
                        > Novell filed an antitrust lawsuit against Microsoft for alleged anti-
                        > competitive behavior (viz, tying Word to sales of Windows) that
                        > Novell claims led to loss of WordPerfect market share [3].
                        >
                        > I do know that at that time, some people received coupons to get a
                        > free copy, and that it was also included for free with an issue of PC
                        > magazine. This was at the same time that Microsoft was attempting to
                        > buy software developers that it wanted and if attempts were stalling,
                        > they'd threaten to put out a similar product and sell it for next to
                        > nothing or give it away for free.
                        >
                        > I'm not Microsoft bashing; I use their products myself. But there
                        > were certainly some dark days in the company's past that I'm sure
                        > they regret.
                        >
                        > Best,
                        > Doug
                        >
                        >
                        > On Nov 30, 2009, at 9:54 AM, em315 wrote:
                        >
                        >> I've been following the word-processing market closely since 1985,
                        >> and this is the first time I've ever heard of that episode, so I'd
                        >> be very interested to learn any more details.
                        >>
                        >> There was certainly an episode in the '80s when Microsoft was
                        >> giving away copies of Excel (not Word) but it's news to me that any
                        >> government got upset. Perhaps you're thinking of the bundling of
                        >> Internet Explorer with Windows?
                        >>
                        >> --- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, Doug Auwarter
                        >> <dauwarter@...> wrote:
                        >>>
                        >>> At the beginning. It may have been the first time they did something
                        >>> like that, and the practice ultimately got them in all kinds of hot
                        >>> water. I don't remember the details - I'm not a very enthusiastic
                        >>> Microsoft historian, but they did it several times to different
                        >>> software companies before various governments decided to put a stop
                        >>> to it.
                        >>> Best,
                        >>> Doug
                        >>>
                        >>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 12:52 AM, Chad Smith wrote:
                        >>>
                        >>>> What are you talking about? When did Microsoft ever give away Word
                        >>>> for free?
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >>>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        --
                        Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. "If it's Fixed, Don't Break it"
                        616 Liberty Street Martinsville, Va 24112-1809
                        Phone: 276-632-5045 Cell: 276-732-7781 Fax: 276-632-0868
                        http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org
                        mailto:pjones1@...
                      • John W
                        People tend to forget or ignore just how different Word and WordPerfect were, way back then. WordPerfect had the market share, but there wasn t any real
                        Message 11 of 29 , Nov 30, 2009
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                          People tend to forget or ignore just how different Word and WordPerfect were, way back then. WordPerfect had the market share, but there wasn't any real competition until Word came along.

                          Does anyone else remember how obscure the WordPerfect keyboard commands were? I don't remember the WP keystrokes to save a document or to exit WP - I think it was some combination involving the F-keys. (WP never bothered with mnemonics.)  And I think for many commands you had to use  those keystrokes. Understand that this was really early in the graphical interface days; most secretaries and typists really weren't comfortable using a mouse.

                          I remember having to shut off and restart the computer because I couldn't figure out how to exit WordPerfect.

                          Word was like a blast of fresh air. (I know it's painful to hear this, but you had to be there.)
                          The menu structure seemed logical and  the keyboard shortcuts made sense. It shortened my learning curve dramatically, and I never did learn how to use the early version of WP.

                          I'm not trying to sanitize history, but Microsoft's challenge to compare the two was evil genius at its best. Word was a better product by far, and WordPerfect didn't do anythiing about that until it was too late, so they brought the lawyers in.







                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Randy B. Singer
                          ... It is a program that approximates graphic art created on physical media in a traditional way. The program has almost 1,000 different brushes you can use.
                          Message 12 of 29 , Nov 30, 2009
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                            On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:49 AM, topcatdrc wrote:

                            > Randy:
                            >
                            > What do you mean by "the premier natural media art program"?

                            It is a program that approximates graphic art created on physical
                            media in a traditional way.

                            The program has almost 1,000 different brushes you can use. Noting
                            else approaches it.

                            See:
                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corel_Painter

                            http://www.corel.com/servlet/Satellite/us/en/Product/
                            1166553885783#tabview=tab0

                            ___________________________________________
                            Randy B. Singer
                            Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions)

                            Macintosh OS X Routine Maintenance
                            http://www.macattorney.com/ts.html
                            ___________________________________________
                          • Chad Smith
                            http://www.mtmonthly.com/runmac/wp51keys.jpg - Chad W Smith http://www.chadwsmith.com/ I like a man who s middle name is W. - President George W. Bush -
                            Message 13 of 29 , Nov 30, 2009
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                              http://www.mtmonthly.com/runmac/wp51keys.jpg

                              - Chad W Smith
                              http://www.chadwsmith.com/
                              "I like a man who's middle name is W." - President George W. Bush - February
                              10, 2003 bit.ly/gwb-dubya


                              On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 12:29 PM, John W <jetlagjohn1@...> wrote:

                              > Does anyone else remember how obscure the WordPerfect keyboard commands
                              > were? I don't remember the WP keystrokes to save a document or to exit WP -
                              > I think it was some combination involving the F-keys. (WP never bothered
                              > with mnemonics.) And I think for many commands you had to use those
                              > keystrokes. Understand that this was really early in the graphical interface
                              > days; most secretaries and typists really weren't comfortable using a mouse.
                              >
                              >


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Gregory Sigman
                              ... Are you sure the University hadn t paid for a site license? I purchased Office 2008 for $20 through my employer, but that was only because they had already
                              Message 14 of 29 , Nov 30, 2009
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                                On Nov 30, 2009, at 12:51 PM, Daryl Chinn wrote:

                                > At various times in my wife's 30-year teaching career at a California State University, you could buy a legit MS Suite for as little as $10.00.

                                Are you sure the University hadn't paid for a site license? I purchased Office 2008 for $20 through my employer, but that was only because they had already paid for the license. I just had to pay a media & duplication fee. And sign a document swearing on the grave of my grandmother to never ever make a copy of the media or even use it for non-work-related activities.

                                Gregory Sigman
                                sigman@...
                                Senior Library Associate
                                Ohio University Music/Dance Library
                              • Tom Wyrick
                                In my opinion, the relative friendliness of MS Word is what really made it take off and kill off WordPerfect, over time. By the same token, it s *also* what
                                Message 15 of 29 , Nov 30, 2009
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                                  In my opinion, the relative "friendliness" of MS Word is what really made it take off and kill off WordPerfect, over time. By the same token, it's *also* what motivates some people to swear by WordPerfect to this day. For example, I remember doing on-site computer service for a couple of law firms that absolutely HAD to have WordPerfect, because the legal assistants all relied on complex macros designed by former employees of the firms. Many of their often typed form-letters, they could generate with practically a single Function key combo - including such things as printing the address on the envelope automatically, as long as it was loaded in the printer behind the piece of paper for the letter itself, all in one shot.

                                  Theoretically, the same or similar functionality could probably be crafted into a Word template and macros ... but who wants to change products (spending money on another software license in the process), and THEN have to manually re-code and test all of that?

                                  But those users amount to a "niche" compared to all the students, year after year, who learn how to use a word processor for the first time (and almost always learn MS Word), plus all the business users who don't do enough "fancy stuff" to really care which word processor they use, as long as it lets them type and print. And again, they usually wind up with MS Word because it's offered, pre-loaded, as an option on so many new PCs.

                                  You have to remember too, people are typically buying an "office suite", not just a word processor. Office looks even more attractive when that's the case, because MS Excel is the de-facto best choice of a spreadsheet package on the market for Windows. Corel did try to sell "Wordperfect Office", but with no Excel spreadsheet - they just weren't enough of a contender.


                                  On Nov 30, 2009, at 12:29 PM, John W wrote:

                                  > People tend to forget or ignore just how different Word and WordPerfect were, way back then. WordPerfect had the market share, but there wasn't any real competition until Word came along.
                                  >
                                  > Does anyone else remember how obscure the WordPerfect keyboard commands were? I don't remember the WP keystrokes to save a document or to exit WP - I think it was some combination involving the F-keys. (WP never bothered with mnemonics.) And I think for many commands you had to use those keystrokes. Understand that this was really early in the graphical interface days; most secretaries and typists really weren't comfortable using a mouse.
                                  >
                                  > I remember having to shut off and restart the computer because I couldn't figure out how to exit WordPerfect.
                                  >
                                  > Word was like a blast of fresh air. (I know it's painful to hear this, but you had to be there.)
                                  > The menu structure seemed logical and the keyboard shortcuts made sense. It shortened my learning curve dramatically, and I never did learn how to use the early version of WP.
                                  >
                                  > I'm not trying to sanitize history, but Microsoft's challenge to compare the two was evil genius at its best. Word was a better product by far, and WordPerfect didn't do anythiing about that until it was too late, so they brought the lawyers in.
                                  > __._


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • David Derbes
                                  ... Not true. Bill Gates was at Harvard, and dropped out his junior year. The Steves were in California. I strongly recommend for histories of this time the
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Nov 30, 2009
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                                    On Nov 30, 2009, at 12:04 PM, Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. wrote:

                                    > Knowing Bill Gates History as related to Apple, Gates didn't
                                    > consider it
                                    > Dark. Bill and the two Co-founders of Apple went to the same
                                    > University
                                    > and studied Computer Science.
                                    >

                                    Not true.

                                    Bill Gates was at Harvard, and dropped out his junior year. The Steves
                                    were in
                                    California.

                                    I strongly recommend for histories of this time the following: "Fire
                                    in the Valley" by
                                    Freiburger and Swaine; "Hackers" by Levy, and "Accidental Empires" by
                                    Cringely.

                                    I do not remember the remainder of the story as described below.

                                    David Derbes
                                    U of Chicago Lab Schools


                                    > When Steve Wozniak, and Steve Jobs decided
                                    > to go into partnership together. Gates wanted to get in as well. They
                                    > turned him down flat. (Supposed he was a less than average on his
                                    > knowledge of Computer Science.) He held a life long grudge and did
                                    > anything and everything he could whether it was with full integrity or
                                    > not to dominate the Market. and he did. At first using a carrot and
                                    > stick approach with Computer manufacturers. (I will help you all as
                                    > long
                                    > as you use my software, if you don't I'll make it tough to sell your
                                    > computers, purchasing software from developers for pennies on the
                                    > thousands of dollars and so on). And his company does.
                                    >
                                    > I use MS Office myself because I have no choice. I use WP from time to
                                    > time. It still handles Envelopes a lot better. TI trust MS only as
                                    > much
                                    > as I need some of their software. Are they honest Hxxx no.
                                    >
                                    > Doug Auwarter wrote:
                                    > > Here's an entry from Wikipedia (not that it's an uncompromised
                                    > > authority):
                                    > >
                                    > > While WordPerfect retained a majority of the retail shelf sales of
                                    > > word processors, Microsoft gained market share by including Word for
                                    > > Windows in its Windows product on new PCs. Microsoft gave discounts
                                    > > for Windows to OEM's who included Word on their PCs. When new PC
                                    > > buyers found Word installed on their new PC, Word began to dominate
                                    > > market share of desktop word processing. Among the remaining avid
                                    > > users of WordPerfect are many law firms and academics who favor the
                                    > > WordPerfect features such as macros and reveal codes. Corel now
                                    > > caters to these markets, with, for example, a major sale to the
                                    > > United States Department of Justice in 2005 [2]. In November 2004,
                                    > > Novell filed an antitrust lawsuit against Microsoft for alleged
                                    > anti-
                                    > > competitive behavior (viz, tying Word to sales of Windows) that
                                    > > Novell claims led to loss of WordPerfect market share [3].
                                    > >
                                    > > I do know that at that time, some people received coupons to get a
                                    > > free copy, and that it was also included for free with an issue of
                                    > PC
                                    > > magazine. This was at the same time that Microsoft was attempting to
                                    > > buy software developers that it wanted and if attempts were
                                    > stalling,
                                    > > they'd threaten to put out a similar product and sell it for next to
                                    > > nothing or give it away for free.
                                    > >
                                    > > I'm not Microsoft bashing; I use their products myself. But there
                                    > > were certainly some dark days in the company's past that I'm sure
                                    > > they regret.
                                    > >
                                    > > Best,
                                    > > Doug
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > On Nov 30, 2009, at 9:54 AM, em315 wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >> I've been following the word-processing market closely since 1985,
                                    > >> and this is the first time I've ever heard of that episode, so I'd
                                    > >> be very interested to learn any more details.
                                    > >>
                                    > >> There was certainly an episode in the '80s when Microsoft was
                                    > >> giving away copies of Excel (not Word) but it's news to me that any
                                    > >> government got upset. Perhaps you're thinking of the bundling of
                                    > >> Internet Explorer with Windows?
                                    > >>
                                    > >> --- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, Doug Auwarter
                                    > >> <dauwarter@...> wrote:
                                    > >>>
                                    > >>> At the beginning. It may have been the first time they did
                                    > something
                                    > >>> like that, and the practice ultimately got them in all kinds of
                                    > hot
                                    > >>> water. I don't remember the details - I'm not a very enthusiastic
                                    > >>> Microsoft historian, but they did it several times to different
                                    > >>> software companies before various governments decided to put a
                                    > stop
                                    > >>> to it.
                                    > >>> Best,
                                    > >>> Doug
                                    > >>>
                                    > >>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 12:52 AM, Chad Smith wrote:
                                    > >>>
                                    > >>>> What are you talking about? When did Microsoft ever give away
                                    > Word
                                    > >>>> for free?
                                    > >>>
                                    > >>>
                                    > >>>
                                    > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >>>
                                    > >>
                                    > >>
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ------------------------------------
                                    > >
                                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > --
                                    > Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. "If it's Fixed, Don't Break it"
                                    > 616 Liberty Street Martinsville, Va 24112-1809
                                    > Phone: 276-632-5045 Cell: 276-732-7781 Fax: 276-632-0868
                                    > http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org
                                    > mailto:pjones1@...
                                    >
                                    >



                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Cydne
                                    It wasn t that we weren t comfortable using a mouse; it was that using only the keyboard was so much faster. Set up your macros and program your f/keys to
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Nov 30, 2009
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                                      It wasn't that we weren't comfortable using a mouse; it was that using
                                      only the keyboard was so much faster. Set up your macros and program
                                      your f/keys to suit your needs and you could execute a command with
                                      one keystroke while the mouse-user's hand was still reaching for the
                                      beastie, LOL.

                                      Cydne....Started using WordPerfect on the Amiga, migrated to the Mac
                                      with it. Still hoping for an eventual Intel version.
                                      --
                                      Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the
                                      moments that take our breath away.




                                      On Nov 30, 2009, at 7:34 PM, Chad Smith wrote:

                                      > On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 12:29 PM, John W <jetlagjohn1@...>
                                      > wrote:
                                      >
                                      >> Does anyone else remember how obscure the WordPerfect keyboard
                                      >> commands
                                      >> were? I don't remember the WP keystrokes to save a document or to
                                      >> exit WP -
                                      >> I think it was some combination involving the F-keys. (WP never
                                      >> bothered
                                      >> with mnemonics.) And I think for many commands you had to use those
                                      >> keystrokes. Understand that this was really early in the graphical
                                      >> interface
                                      >> days; most secretaries and typists really weren't comfortable using
                                      >> a mouse.
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >



                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Daryl Chinn
                                      Probably the California State University system of 19 campuses (there are more now) paid a site license fee.  I say probably, because she doesn t really know,
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Nov 30, 2009
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                                        Probably the California State University system of 19 campuses (there are more now) paid a site license fee.  I say probably, because she doesn't really know, but it seems a reasonable conclusion.  We got the disks, not just a download, and yes, she too had to sign her life away and future grandchildren, etc., etc.  But the point is, the end-users didn't feel anything except a pin-prick of cost, and does anyone or anything complain (or stop you) from Gatesville or anywhere else if you compose a Christmas letter instead of doing work-related stuff?.  I've discovered you can load it onto more than one machine;  however, in this wireless or connected age, MS will tell you that you can't RUN the same program with the same serial number concurrently on more than one connected machine in a network.
                                        Everyone does it, really (not to excuse or encourage, and I don't mind);  my refurbished Mac came with iLife disks and some printing programs thrown in, even though I didn't expect it or see it on the invoice. To my surprise, I also had a pre-installed then-current version of (Intuit) Quickbooks when I turned on the machine—and it didn't expire.  The marketing and licensing world is pretty labyrinthine. 

                                        Daryl Ngee ChinnPoet and Teaching Artist
                                        --- On Mon, 11/30/09, Gregory Sigman <sigman@...> wrote:
                                        Are you sure the University hadn't paid for a site license? I purchased Office 2008 for $20 through my employer, but that was only because they had already paid for the license. I just had to pay a media & duplication fee. And sign a document swearing on the grave of my grandmother to never ever make a copy of the media or even use it for non-work-related activities.



                                        Gregory Sigman

                                        sigman@ohio. edu

                                        Senior Library Associate
                                         
                                        Ohio University Music/Dance Library

















                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.
                                        back in the day when WordPerfect was popular I used Lotus 1-2-3 not excel. Then I used MS-works for Mac which was a direct ripoff port of AppleWorks for Apple
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Dec 1, 2009
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          back in the day when WordPerfect was popular I used Lotus 1-2-3 not
                                          excel. Then I used MS-works for Mac which was a direct ripoff port of
                                          AppleWorks for Apple II. But apple didn't port fast enough instead they
                                          came out with MacWrite Pro. I used WordPerfect/Lotus 1-2-3, Then
                                          Ms-Works, then I bought Word and Excel because I wasn't interested the
                                          rest off the office program. I finally relented, bought Office 2001, I
                                          still don't use PowerPoint to this date.

                                          Tom Wyrick wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > In my opinion, the relative "friendliness" of MS Word is what really
                                          > made it take off and kill off WordPerfect, over time. By the same token,
                                          > it's *also* what motivates some people to swear by WordPerfect to this
                                          > day. For example, I remember doing on-site computer service for a couple
                                          > of law firms that absolutely HAD to have WordPerfect, because the legal
                                          > assistants all relied on complex macros designed by former employees of
                                          > the firms. Many of their often typed form-letters, they could generate
                                          > with practically a single Function key combo - including such things as
                                          > printing the address on the envelope automatically, as long as it was
                                          > loaded in the printer behind the piece of paper for the letter itself,
                                          > all in one shot.
                                          >
                                          > Theoretically, the same or similar functionality could probably be
                                          > crafted into a Word template and macros ... but who wants to change
                                          > products (spending money on another software license in the process),
                                          > and THEN have to manually re-code and test all of that?
                                          >
                                          > But those users amount to a "niche" compared to all the students, year
                                          > after year, who learn how to use a word processor for the first time
                                          > (and almost always learn MS Word), plus all the business users who don't
                                          > do enough "fancy stuff" to really care which word processor they use, as
                                          > long as it lets them type and print. And again, they usually wind up
                                          > with MS Word because it's offered, pre-loaded, as an option on so many
                                          > new PCs.
                                          >
                                          > You have to remember too, people are typically buying an "office suite",
                                          > not just a word processor. Office looks even more attractive when that's
                                          > the case, because MS Excel is the de-facto best choice of a spreadsheet
                                          > package on the market for Windows. Corel did try to sell "Wordperfect
                                          > Office", but with no Excel spreadsheet - they just weren't enough of a
                                          > contender.
                                          >
                                          > On Nov 30, 2009, at 12:29 PM, John W wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > People tend to forget or ignore just how different Word and
                                          > WordPerfect were, way back then. WordPerfect had the market share, but
                                          > there wasn't any real competition until Word came along.
                                          > >
                                          > > Does anyone else remember how obscure the WordPerfect keyboard
                                          > commands were? I don't remember the WP keystrokes to save a document or
                                          > to exit WP - I think it was some combination involving the F-keys. (WP
                                          > never bothered with mnemonics.) And I think for many commands you had to
                                          > use those keystrokes. Understand that this was really early in the
                                          > graphical interface days; most secretaries and typists really weren't
                                          > comfortable using a mouse.
                                          > >
                                          > > I remember having to shut off and restart the computer because I
                                          > couldn't figure out how to exit WordPerfect.
                                          > >
                                          > > Word was like a blast of fresh air. (I know it's painful to hear
                                          > this, but you had to be there.)
                                          > > The menu structure seemed logical and the keyboard shortcuts made
                                          > sense. It shortened my learning curve dramatically, and I never did
                                          > learn how to use the early version of WP.
                                          > >
                                          > > I'm not trying to sanitize history, but Microsoft's challenge to
                                          > compare the two was evil genius at its best. Word was a better product
                                          > by far, and WordPerfect didn't do anythiing about that until it was too
                                          > late, so they brought the lawyers in.
                                          > > __._
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          >

                                          --
                                          Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. "If it's Fixed, Don't Break it"
                                          616 Liberty Street Martinsville, Va 24112-1809
                                          Phone: 276-632-5045 Cell: 276-732-7781 Fax: 276-632-0868
                                          http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org
                                          mailto:pjones1@...
                                        • Rick Albright
                                          Ah, memories. Back in the day, as my students always like to write in their papers, I remember when Lotus 1-2-3 was *the* spreadsheet program. I first ran it
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Dec 1, 2009
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Ah, memories. "Back in the day," as my students always like to write
                                            in their papers, I remember when Lotus 1-2-3 was *the* spreadsheet
                                            program. I first ran it on an IBM 3270-PC, and that was even pre-hard
                                            drive. Two 5.25 inch floppy drives. I think the Lotus disk was
                                            bootable with DOS 1.1 (later 2.0) on one drive, and the data disk was
                                            in the other. Or maybe one disk was DOS, one was the Lotus program
                                            disk and you popped it out and inserted the data disk (occasionally
                                            having to reinsert the program disk). Long before Excel.

                                            We (the federal gummint) also ran WordPerfect--after we got rid of
                                            our IBM 5520 word processors with the big (I think they were 7")
                                            floppy drives. Only secretaries did word processing then, but we
                                            eventually got WordPerfect (yes, I'm mindful that this is a WP list)--
                                            I think it was 4-point-something. I well remember 5.1 with all the PF
                                            keys, then the various Windows versions, and by then I had a Mac
                                            laptop with a docking station and WP Mac 2.1 on the road, and Windows
                                            in the office.

                                            My office was very slow to give up WordPerfect and move to Word
                                            because so many of our program specifications and other documentation
                                            relied heavily on tables, and the tables in WordPerfect were superior
                                            to Word's.

                                            I remember MS-Works on my first Mac, too. Not only was it a ripoff of
                                            Appleworks, but I even had the "Works to Works Transporter" that
                                            converted AppleWorks files to MS-Works. (And before that there was
                                            Microsoft Multi-plan for the Commodore 64, not a direct MS product,
                                            but licensed to one of the C64 game companies. The coolest thing
                                            about Multiplan was being able to reference cells on another
                                            spreadsheet file and watch that Commodore diskette drive churn to go
                                            get the data off the disk.)

                                            Okay, enough of memory lane for me. Back to WordPerfect.

                                            Rick Albright

                                            On Dec 1, 2009, at 12:46 PM, Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. wrote:

                                            > back in the day when WordPerfect was popular I used Lotus 1-2-3 not
                                            > excel. Then I used MS-works for Mac which was a direct ripoff port of
                                            > AppleWorks for Apple II. But apple didn't port fast enough instead
                                            > they
                                            > came out with MacWrite Pro. I used WordPerfect/Lotus 1-2-3, Then
                                            > Ms-Works, then I bought Word and Excel because I wasn't interested the
                                            > rest off the office program. I finally relented, bought Office 2001, I
                                            > still don't use PowerPoint to this date.
                                            >
                                            > Tom Wyrick wrote:
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >> In my opinion, the relative "friendliness" of MS Word is what really
                                            >> made it take off and kill off WordPerfect, over time. By the same
                                            >> token,
                                            >> it's *also* what motivates some people to swear by WordPerfect to
                                            >> this
                                            >> day. For example, I remember doing on-site computer service for a
                                            >> couple
                                            >> of law firms that absolutely HAD to have WordPerfect, because the
                                            >> legal
                                            >> assistants all relied on complex macros designed by former
                                            >> employees of
                                            >> the firms. Many of their often typed form-letters, they could
                                            >> generate
                                            >> with practically a single Function key combo - including such
                                            >> things as
                                            >> printing the address on the envelope automatically, as long as it was
                                            >> loaded in the printer behind the piece of paper for the letter
                                            >> itself,
                                            >> all in one shot.
                                            >>
                                            >> Theoretically, the same or similar functionality could probably be
                                            >> crafted into a Word template and macros ... but who wants to change
                                            >> products (spending money on another software license in the process),
                                            >> and THEN have to manually re-code and test all of that?
                                            >>
                                            >> But those users amount to a "niche" compared to all the students,
                                            >> year
                                            >> after year, who learn how to use a word processor for the first time
                                            >> (and almost always learn MS Word), plus all the business users who
                                            >> don't
                                            >> do enough "fancy stuff" to really care which word processor they
                                            >> use, as
                                            >> long as it lets them type and print. And again, they usually wind up
                                            >> with MS Word because it's offered, pre-loaded, as an option on so
                                            >> many
                                            >> new PCs.
                                            >>
                                            >> You have to remember too, people are typically buying an "office
                                            >> suite",
                                            >> not just a word processor. Office looks even more attractive when
                                            >> that's
                                            >> the case, because MS Excel is the de-facto best choice of a
                                            >> spreadsheet
                                            >> package on the market for Windows. Corel did try to sell "Wordperfect
                                            >> Office", but with no Excel spreadsheet - they just weren't enough
                                            >> of a
                                            >> contender.
                                            >>
                                            >> On Nov 30, 2009, at 12:29 PM, John W wrote:
                                            >>
                                            >>> People tend to forget or ignore just how different Word and
                                            >> WordPerfect were, way back then. WordPerfect had the market share,
                                            >> but
                                            >> there wasn't any real competition until Word came along.
                                            >>>
                                            >>> Does anyone else remember how obscure the WordPerfect keyboard
                                            >> commands were? I don't remember the WP keystrokes to save a
                                            >> document or
                                            >> to exit WP - I think it was some combination involving the F-keys.
                                            >> (WP
                                            >> never bothered with mnemonics.) And I think for many commands you
                                            >> had to
                                            >> use those keystrokes. Understand that this was really early in the
                                            >> graphical interface days; most secretaries and typists really weren't
                                            >> comfortable using a mouse.
                                            >>>
                                            >>> I remember having to shut off and restart the computer because I
                                            >> couldn't figure out how to exit WordPerfect.
                                            >>>
                                            >>> Word was like a blast of fresh air. (I know it's painful to hear
                                            >> this, but you had to be there.)
                                            >>> The menu structure seemed logical and the keyboard shortcuts made
                                            >> sense. It shortened my learning curve dramatically, and I never did
                                            >> learn how to use the early version of WP.
                                            >>>
                                            >>> I'm not trying to sanitize history, but Microsoft's challenge to
                                            >> compare the two was evil genius at its best. Word was a better
                                            >> product
                                            >> by far, and WordPerfect didn't do anythiing about that until it
                                            >> was too
                                            >> late, so they brought the lawyers in.
                                            >>> __._
                                            >>
                                            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >
                                            > --
                                            > Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. "If it's Fixed, Don't Break it"
                                            > 616 Liberty Street Martinsville, Va 24112-1809
                                            > Phone: 276-632-5045 Cell: 276-732-7781 Fax: 276-632-0868
                                            > http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org
                                            > mailto:pjones1@...
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ------------------------------------
                                            >
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >

                                            =========================================================
                                            “No dark sarcasm in the classroom”
                                            --Roger Waters, “Another Brick in the Wall, Part 2”
                                            from Pink Floyd, The Wall
                                            -------------------------------------------
                                            Rick Albright
                                            logres@...
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