Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Reply to MS Word documents

Expand Messages
  • drderbes
    ... A small correction. We may disagree about the definition of high end , but there are at least three other actively supported word processors besides
    Message 1 of 15 , May 13, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, Randy B. Singer <randy@...> wrote:
      >
      > I realize that this is a WordPerfect/Mac list, and like the other
      > members of this list I am very fond of, and even enthusiastic about,
      > WordPerfect/Mac. (Though I switched to Word a few years after Corel
      > abandoned WP/Mac as a matter of expedience.) But I usually find
      > Microsoft Word bashing to be mostly based on fallacious premises, and
      > I feel compelled, as a Word user, to point this out.
      >
      > (I can't argue with hatred for Microsoft, and I wholeheartedly agree
      > that Microsoft deserves to be hated. But some of us have to use the
      > best tools available to us for our businesses, and so, as a matter of
      > practicality, use Word as the only high-end word processor for the
      > Mac that is still actively being sold and supported.)

      A small correction. We may disagree about the definition of "high
      end", but there are at least three other actively supported word
      processors besides Microsoft Word available for Mac OS X, and two of
      them are sold: the word processor in OpenOffice, Nisus Writer, and
      Mellel. I use Nisus on a regular basis, and it seems to me at least as
      "high end" as Word. I continue to use WP, which was my main word
      processor for the better part of twenty years, to maintain and upgrade
      old handouts for my physics students, but gradually these are being
      turned into LaTeX. Were Corel or some other company to produce a
      native OS X version of WP, I would purchase it at once. (Incidentally,
      Nisus does a good job of importing and exporting WP.)

      In fact my main tool for word processing has become LaTeX. The editor
      I use for LaTeX is Richard Koch's wonderful (and free) TeXShop, but
      many people I know and respect can't say enough good things about
      TextMate. LaTeX does not belong to a corporation, but to argue that
      this takes it out of the realm of "active support" is silly; the
      TeX/LaTeX community seems to me huge, growing, and very active.

      I read the anti-Word/MS message John quoted many years ago. It seemed
      to me over the top even then, when MS was a much greater threat than
      it is today. The same message could be conveyed in a much simpler, and
      less antagonistic manner: "Thanks for your attachment. I do not own
      Word, and cannot open documents in Word format. Could you resend as
      plain text, PDF or RTF? Many thanks." Whether or not the famously
      abrasive Richard Stallman was the author, it seems to be widely
      acknowledged that he is a genius whose generous and massive
      contributions to computing have revolutionized the way we work, and I
      am very grateful to him. (The unsung heroes of OS X probably include
      Linus Torvalds, Richard Stallman and Bill Joy, among countless others.)

      Microsoft is, in my opinion, a spent force in personal computing.
      Windows is like a beached whale, doomed to be suffocated under its own
      weight. GNU/Linux or another Unix-based OS like Mac OS X is becoming
      (has become already?) the standard, independent of machine
      architecture or chip. Office will continue for perhaps another two
      iterations, and then it will simply fade away slowly (the recent Sun
      announcement about a native OpenOffice just reinforces this belief.)

      I used to hate Microsoft. Now I just ignore them.

      Best wishes to John and Randy.

      David Derbes
      U of Chicago Lab Schools
    • Randy B. Singer
      ... Actually, there are a bunch of them: http://www.emailman.com/software/wordproc/mac.html ... While these are very nice word processors, and they may be good
      Message 2 of 15 , May 13, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        On May 13, 2007, at 4:26 AM, drderbes wrote:

        > A small correction. We may disagree about the definition of "high
        > end", but there are at least three other actively supported word
        > processors besides Microsoft Word available for Mac OS X,

        Actually, there are a bunch of them:
        http://www.emailman.com/software/wordproc/mac.html

        > and two of
        > them are sold: the word processor in OpenOffice, Nisus Writer, and
        > Mellel. I use Nisus on a regular basis, and it seems to me at least as
        > "high end" as Word.

        While these are very nice word processors, and they may be good
        enough for some to use instead of WP/Mac or Word, they don't approach
        the features of WP/Mac or Word. If they did, just about everybody on
        this discussion list would have switched to one of them by now, and
        this list would have little reason to exist.

        > Microsoft is, in my opinion, a spent force in personal computing.
        > Windows is like a beached whale, doomed to be suffocated under its own
        > weight. GNU/Linux or another Unix-based OS like Mac OS X is becoming
        > (has become already?) the standard, independent of machine
        > architecture or chip. Office will continue for perhaps another two
        > iterations, and then it will simply fade away slowly (the recent Sun
        > announcement about a native OpenOffice just reinforces this belief.)

        It would be nice if that were the case, but like the many folks who
        have been predicting the demise of Apple for over a decade, I think
        that reports of Microsoft's (with over 90% of the personal computer
        market) demise are a bit premature. But who knows? No one ever
        thought that they would see Sears, and then K-Mart, humbled by a new
        upstart (Wal-Mart), or Toyota overtake General Motors, so anything
        can happen in business.

        Want to know what word processor that I'm keeping an eye on? iWork's
        Pages. First, one must realize that we all "like" programs that we
        are used to using, and we tend to dislike programs that we don't know
        how to use yet. So, putting aside that Pages is a program that most
        of us are new to and that it can be frustrating using a new program,
        have a look at Pages interface. It makes WP/Mac and Word look
        antiquated. While Pages isn't entirely intuitive (which is probably
        impossible to achieve with a modern, advanced word processor in any
        case) it does away with having to find features buried deep in
        branching menus. Things can be accomplished and fine-tuned by
        pointing and clicking rather than by having to navigate multiple
        dialog boxes. I am very much looking forward to Pages 3. I suspect
        that version will allow many Mac-users of Word to say goodbye to
        Word. (Though I suspect that Pages 3 is unlikely to be a true high-
        end product.) If Apple introduces the spreadsheet program that has
        been rumored for years, users may be able to say goodbye to Office as
        a whole also.

        ___________________________________________
        Randy B. Singer
        Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions)

        Macintosh OS X Routine Maintenance
        http://www.macattorney.com/ts.html
        ___________________________________________
      • Ford Davis
        I joined this list to support a school principal needing WP to work on her MAC a couple of years ago. As a technology instructor/troubleshooter, I have seen
        Message 3 of 15 , May 13, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          I joined this list to support a school principal needing WP to work on
          her MAC a couple of years ago. As a technology
          instructor/troubleshooter, I have seen the most amazing support on this
          list by John Rethorst as well as others on the list for the WP Mac
          community. High regards for all your work ... the quality of software
          makes it worth the work I am sure.

          I have used Word since it's first release, and the first IBM mouse. I
          am not a MS worshiper, and yet my students will most likely use it, or
          the clone substitutes out today. That is my reality, and I use the OS X
          version in teaching. I agree with David Derbes, MS is on the way down,
          very much like IBM. They will be there, but their "time" has gone.
          They bet on profit first and missed the human factor. Bill is on top
          though ... for the moment! The original document where he attacked the
          early "customers" of his code is here in Albuquerque in a permanent
          museum exhibit. He has asked for some of the grief the PC platform
          suffers under at the moment...and for the future.

          On the emailing of MS Word formatted information, everyone may or may
          not be aware that with the Google Toolbar and Gmail (both free) .doc
          attachments just opened on the screen in your web browser via a Google
          software "word" engine. Same with .xls Excel files. If you set it up
          right, the attachments just open on the screen like a text portion of an
          email. This is their "Docs & Spreadsheets." You can choose to download
          your work completed in .doc or .xls format. With the added ability to
          share word and excel files to friends, workers or groups, any viruses
          would also be ineffectual as they would open on the Google environment.
          The service is free, and you do need Internet access, but if you have
          email you already have that ability. I do have some faith in the Google
          "Do No Harm" concept. Yes, I also accept it with a "block of salt."

          The "Word" and "Excel" formats may well be the standard, but I wouldn't
          doubt that their links to MS will fade into my history of software
          information for my students. Who knows, maybe the best elements of WP
          Mac will find their way into future iterations of the tools we we all
          use. Google might even be interested in rolling them into their free
          web version.

          To see Docs & Spreadsheets: http://docs.google.com/?pli=1
          To see other free Google stuff:
          http://www.google.com/intl/en/options/index.html

          Ford Davis
          Alb., NM

          John Rethorst wrote:
          >
          > A current thread on Usenet concerns the practice of
          > emailing information in MS Word format, or posting
          > documents on the web in that format, on the assumption
          > that everyone can read it. A post suggests this reply:
          >
          >
        • tbgibson
          I agree it is annoying to receive .doc attachments, especially from people who really don t know that there are any other formats out there (this includes a
          Message 4 of 15 , May 14, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            I agree it is annoying to receive .doc attachments, especially from
            people who really don't know that there are any other formats out
            there (this includes a vast majority of the general population, I think).

            But I can always open or view them, so I don't bother to complain. In
            fact, I tend to open any .doc in TextEdit anyway because it takes Word
            such a long time to launch.

            My real problem is when my childrens' teachers create and post
            assignment in MS Publisher. Is there any way for us to open or view
            them our Intel and PPC Macs?

            Thanks.





            --- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, Randy B. Singer <randy@...> wrote:
            >
            > I realize that this is a WordPerfect/Mac list, and like the other
            > members of this list I am very fond of, and even enthusiastic about,
            > WordPerfect/Mac. (Though I switched to Word a few years after Corel
            > abandoned WP/Mac as a matter of expedience.) But I usually find
            > Microsoft Word bashing to be mostly based on fallacious premises, and
            > I feel compelled, as a Word user, to point this out.
            >

            >
          • Randall C. Wilson
            Most business contexts would not permit me to reply to a Word attachment with an emotion laden reply. ... De Facto standards are just that, they are de facto
            Message 5 of 15 , May 14, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              Most business contexts would not permit me to reply to a Word
              attachment with an emotion laden reply.

              >If you have a job, the Word file
              >format is the de facto (like it or not) file format for word
              >processing documents. It isn't practical, or wise, to delete files
              >that you receive from co-workers or others associated with your
              >business. At least not if you want to remain employed.

              De Facto standards are just that, they are "de facto" because people
              choose overwhelmingly to use them.

              However, I would hardly say that Word is the only de facto standard
              for shipping word processing content. From my perspective pdf files
              are in most cases preferred over word attachments and can rightly
              claim to be just as, or more important than Word as a de-facto
              standard.

              --
              /S/ Randall

              mailto:rwilson@...

              Alternate: mailto:gryndal@...

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • gabi_kp4bjd
              I ve been following the thread on unreading MS Word documents. I yield to my senses by accepting that MS .doc will be around for some time. Text document
              Message 6 of 15 , May 14, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                I've been following the thread on "unreading" MS Word documents.
                I yield to my senses by accepting that MS ".doc" will be around for
                some time. Text document formating has been a real issue with me
                since the Apple ][. From Apple Writer //e on to Apple Writer ///, to
                MacWrite (1984), then MacWrite II, and finally my favorite: Word
                Perfect (1990). It became COREL WordPerfect; I was delighted with
                version 3.5 (1995). When Corel Corp stopped development but made
                version 3.5e available free at their Web Site, I ran it in Classic mode
                applying the available patch. Yet, eventually I yielded to using "other"
                because it was a nuisance to run Classic mode, and it became more so
                when Apple discontinued it for Intel machines. My point is this: users
                continue to endure the growing pains of developing nascent software
                that has yet to stabilize into accepted standards. Take WP: it had a
                rather unique propietary formatting code that "text only" processors
                couldn't decode; encryption made WP documents virtually impossible
                to read by other processors. Nowadays I use MacLinkPlus to `decode'
                the huge volume of those stored WP files I still have a need to access.
                I tried AbiWord and others to no avail. In contrast, I long ago gave up
                trying to read old Apple ][ VisiCalc files ... which leads me to comment
                this: It's my fervent hope that software developers resolve the issue
                of `universal readability' for any-kind-of-text documents ... say apply
                some variety of automatic "Rosetta Stones" so that we are able to use
                these software packages without needing to spend a great deal of time
                figuring out how best to get them to read "obsolete" rich formats.


                Gabe Fuentes San Juan, PR U.S.A.

                --- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, Ford Davis <cyber@...> wrote:
                >
                > I joined this list to support a school principal needing WP to work on
                > her MAC a couple of years ago. As a technology
                > instructor/troubleshooter, I have seen the most amazing support on this
                > list by John Rethorst as well as others on the list for the WP Mac
                > community. High regards for all your work ... the quality of software
                > makes it worth the work I am sure.
                >
                > I have used Word since it's first release, and the first IBM mouse. I
                > am not a MS worshiper, and yet my students will most likely use it, or
                > the clone substitutes out today. That is my reality, and I use the OS X
                > version in teaching. I agree with David Derbes, MS is on the way down,
                > very much like IBM. They will be there, but their "time" has gone.
                > They bet on profit first and missed the human factor. Bill is on top
                > though ... for the moment! The original document where he attacked the
                > early "customers" of his code is here in Albuquerque in a permanent
                > museum exhibit. He has asked for some of the grief the PC platform
                > suffers under at the moment...and for the future.
                >
                > On the emailing of MS Word formatted information, everyone may or may
                > not be aware that with the Google Toolbar and Gmail (both free) .doc
                > attachments just opened on the screen in your web browser via a Google
                > software "word" engine. Same with .xls Excel files. If you set it up
                > right, the attachments just open on the screen like a text portion of an
                > email. This is their "Docs & Spreadsheets." You can choose to download
                > your work completed in .doc or .xls format. With the added ability to
                > share word and excel files to friends, workers or groups, any viruses
                > would also be ineffectual as they would open on the Google environment.
                > The service is free, and you do need Internet access, but if you have
                > email you already have that ability. I do have some faith in the Google
                > "Do No Harm" concept. Yes, I also accept it with a "block of salt."
                >
                > The "Word" and "Excel" formats may well be the standard, but I wouldn't
                > doubt that their links to MS will fade into my history of software
                > information for my students. Who knows, maybe the best elements of WP
                > Mac will find their way into future iterations of the tools we we all
                > use. Google might even be interested in rolling them into their free
                > web version.
                >
                > To see Docs & Spreadsheets: http://docs.google.com/?pli=1
                > To see other free Google stuff:
                > http://www.google.com/intl/en/options/index.html
                >
                > Ford Davis
                > Alb., NM
              • brian stegner
                ... then you have Word poorly-configured, Word launches in a handful of seconds over here. Best Regards, Brian Stegner Minneapolis Monday May 14, 2007 12:14 PM
                Message 7 of 15 , May 14, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  At 1:21 PM +0000 5/14/07, tbgibson wrote:

                  >But I can always open or view them, so I don't bother to complain. In
                  >fact, I tend to open any .doc in TextEdit anyway because it takes Word
                  >such a long time to launch.

                  then you have Word poorly-configured, Word launches in a handful of seconds over here.

                  Best Regards,
                  Brian Stegner

                  Minneapolis
                  Monday May 14, 2007
                  12:14 PM US/Central
                • Syth
                  ... I CAN open them. I simply refuse to. ... I don t think so.
                  Message 8 of 15 , May 14, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    On 14-May-2007, at 07:21, tbgibson wrote:
                    > I agree it is annoying to receive .doc attachments, especially from
                    > people who really don't know that there are any other formats out
                    > there (this includes a vast majority of the general population, I
                    > think).
                    >
                    > But I can always open

                    I CAN open them. I simply refuse to.

                    > My real problem is when my childrens' teachers create and post
                    > assignment in MS Publisher. Is there any way for us to open or view
                    > them our Intel and PPC Macs?

                    I don't think so.
                  • Smokey Ardisson
                    At the risk of continuing this is a very bad way, I wanted to respond to two points Randy made. On Sun May 13, 2007 1:56 am ((PDT)), Randy B. Singer ... It s
                    Message 9 of 15 , May 14, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      At the risk of continuing this is a very bad way, I wanted to respond
                      to two points Randy made.

                      On Sun May 13, 2007 1:56 am ((PDT)), "Randy B. Singer"
                      <randy@...> wrote:

                      >The recently introduced Word file format (so far Windows only, but
                      >soon to come to the Mac), based on XML, OpenXML/Doc-X, is not
                      >proprietary. It is an ISO-certified open format.

                      It's up for review by ISO, but it hasn't been approved. It was
                      approved (some will say rubber-stamped) by the European Computer
                      Manufacturer's Association (ECMA).

                      >Everyone has
                      >access to the format''s complete specifications, so any developer can
                      >create perfect translators or use this file format in their product.
                      >http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/products/HA102057841033.aspx

                      While this is true in the strictest sense, it's somewhat misleading.
                      The specification exists (at over 6000 pages) and is
                      freely-available, but it is vague/poorly specified (your choice) and
                      continues to require non-Microsoft implementors to reverse engineer
                      software to figure out how to implement specified behaviors. If
                      you're at all interested in file formats or this issue, I urge you to
                      read
                      <http://www.robweir.com/blog/2006/01/how-to-hire-guillaume-portes.html>,
                      from which the following:

                      "So not only must an interoperable OOXML implementation first acquire
                      and reverse-engineer a 14-year old version of Microsoft Word, it must
                      also do the same thing with a 16-year old version of WordPerfect.
                      Good luck."

                      I will admit up front to having not read the whole spec, or any of it
                      other than those excerpts, but my impression from what I've read
                      about the issue is that there are a good number of legacy behaviors
                      encoded by the spec but poorly specified. Anyone is free (I guess)
                      to not implement import of these behaviors, or to guess at how
                      they're done, but doing se means your import is no linger faithful,
                      but lossy. Just ask Corel how that turned out. For some documents
                      it may not matter, but for feeling free to switch away from Word, the
                      threat of having to do some reformatting (even if only a little) on
                      *every single document* is certainly enough to stop switching.

                      Anyway, I've gone on too long about this. My point was only to say
                      that what Randy points out is true in the larger sense, but, as
                      always, the devil is in the details.

                      Smokey
                    • Randy B. Singer
                      ... This free Web site will convert Microsoft Publisher documents into PDF format (which you can then open in OS X s Preview):
                      Message 10 of 15 , May 14, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        On May 14, 2007, at 6:21 AM, tbgibson wrote:

                        > My real problem is when my childrens' teachers create and post
                        > assignment in MS Publisher. Is there any way for us to open or view
                        > them our Intel and PPC Macs?

                        This free Web site will convert Microsoft Publisher documents into
                        PDF format (which you can then open in OS X's Preview):

                        https://www.pdfonline.com/convert_pdf.asp

                        ___________________________________________
                        Randy B. Singer
                        Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions)

                        Macintosh OS X Routine Maintenance
                        http://www.macattorney.com/ts.html
                        ___________________________________________
                      • Geoff Gilbert
                        Randy That s fantastic. Thanks Geoff
                        Message 11 of 15 , May 14, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Randy

                          That's fantastic.

                          Thanks

                          Geoff

                          >On May 14, 2007, at 6:21 AM, tbgibson wrote:
                          >
                          >> My real problem is when my childrens' teachers create and post
                          >> assignment in MS Publisher. Is there any way for us to open or view
                          >> them our Intel and PPC Macs?
                          >
                          >This free Web site will convert Microsoft Publisher documents into
                          >PDF format (which you can then open in OS X's Preview):
                          >
                          >https://www.pdfonline.com/convert_pdf.asp
                          >
                          >___________________________________________
                          >Randy B. Singer
                          >Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions)
                          >
                          >Macintosh OS X Routine Maintenance
                          >http://www.macattorney.com/ts.html
                          >___________________________________________
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Aron S. Spencer
                          I have no particular problem with people sending or posting actual documents in MS Word, or whatever other format they happen to prefer. What really bugs me,
                          Message 12 of 15 , May 15, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I have no particular problem with people sending or posting actual
                            "documents" in MS Word, or whatever other format they happen to
                            prefer. What really bugs me, though, is when people set Outlook to
                            use Word as their editor, and every single email they send has a Word
                            document as an attachment, _instead_ of any text in the body. I don't
                            want to have to open up Word just to read their mail. If their
                            sending me a research paper or whatever, fine. But as the body of
                            their email? Arrghh!!!!

                            On May 12, 2007, at 5:32 PM, John Rethorst wrote:

                            > A current thread on Usenet concerns the practice of
                            > emailing information in MS Word format, or posting
                            > documents on the web in that format, on the assumption
                            > that everyone can read it. A post suggests this reply:

                            Aron S. Spencer
                            Union, NJ 07083
                          • John Rethorst
                            It sure is. Link added to the Links section here. John R.
                            Message 13 of 15 , May 15, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              It sure is. Link added to the Links section here.

                              John R.


                              --- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, Geoff Gilbert <Geoff@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Randy
                              >
                              > That's fantastic.
                              >
                              > Thanks
                              >
                              > Geoff
                              >
                              > >On May 14, 2007, at 6:21 AM, tbgibson wrote:
                              > >
                              > >> My real problem is when my childrens' teachers create and post
                              > >> assignment in MS Publisher. Is there any way for us to open or view
                              > >> them our Intel and PPC Macs?
                              > >
                              > >This free Web site will convert Microsoft Publisher documents into
                              > >PDF format (which you can then open in OS X's Preview):
                              > >
                              > >https://www.pdfonline.com/convert_pdf.asp
                              > >
                              > >___________________________________________
                              > >Randy B. Singer
                              > >Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions)
                              > >
                              > >Macintosh OS X Routine Maintenance
                              > >http://www.macattorney.com/ts.html
                              > >___________________________________________
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.