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Odd WP 3.5e behavior to Xserve

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  • russellhwalker
    We just retired our old ASIP 4.3 server and put our new Xserve G5 10.4.2 server into production. One of our attorneys (who insists on using WordPerfect and
    Message 1 of 8 , Sep 9, 2005
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      We just retired our old ASIP 4.3 server and put our new Xserve G5
      10.4.2 server into production. One of our attorneys (who insists on
      using WordPerfect and will not switch to Word) is seeing odd behavior
      using Mac WordPerfect 3.5e updated with the updater, etc., when
      accessing files on the Xserve file server. I've been able to work
      around the problem by really cranking down the permissions on the
      Xserve, but I wondered if you have seen this before and could point me
      in the direction of a real solution. We are not seeing this behavior
      with any other program.

      Issue: If WordPerfect 3.5e merely opens a locked file on the server
      and copies a selected portion of text to the clipboard and then closes
      the file without saving or modifying, WordPerfect unlocks the file and
      changes the modification date of the file. This is causing concern
      because we need to preserve the modification dates of our files for
      liability, etc., issues and other reasons.

      WordPerfect (actually the Finder) does give the warning about opening
      a locked file and being unable to save changes when the file is
      initially opened by double-clicking on it, but, upon simply
      highlighting a section of text and then closing the document window
      without saving, WordPerfect unlocks the file and changes the
      modification date and time to the present.

      By changing the permissions on the entire volume so that this attorney
      is not the owner of any files and is not in the group for the file
      (but still has read permission), I've been able to work around this
      oddity. This behavior is only seen for files accessed on the Xserve,
      not for files on the local desktop, and happens regardless of whether
      the Xserve network volume is using POSIX permissions or ACL
      permissions.

      The Xserve is 10.4.2 Mac OS Server. The attorney's local computer is
      Mac OS 9.1 (I haven't been successful in getting WordPerfect to run in
      Classic mode under 10.4.2, but I'm going to work a bit more at that,
      which is a separate problem and I see the discussions on that and
      various approaches to try). I've been able to reproduce the above
      behavior on a clean install Mac OS 9.1 with all updates, followed by a
      clean install of WP 3.5e with the updater for Mac OS 8 & 9 applied.
      We never saw this in the years of using the now-retired ASIP server.

      It just seems odd that WordPerfect would unlock and then modify a file
      that it simply opens, selects a portion of text for copying to the
      clipboard, and then closes without modifying (and there's no
      close/save dialog to indicate that it is saving/modifying).

      Any suggestions for a list or direction in which I should look? I'm
      not a WordPerfect person, otherwise I would know the right resources.
      I searched in the Yahoo Groups Mac forum for this issue, but can't
      find a message thread discussing it.

      Thanks, and best regards,

      Russ
    • Phillip Jones, C.E.T.
      This is going to be a pain to do if you have gazillions of files. But if he has a few do the following. click on each file one at a time and choose GetInfo.
      Message 2 of 8 , Sep 10, 2005
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        This is going to be a pain to do if you have gazillions of files.

        But if he has a few do the following.

        click on each file one at a time and choose GetInfo. In OSX set to
        read only.

        Its been so long since I've used OS9's get Info but there is a special
        box in the right hand corner that when check set to read only its not
        called that.

        When set to read only it only allows for reading of a file and can not
        be alltered evn date.

        russellhwalker wrote:
        > We just retired our old ASIP 4.3 server and put our new Xserve G5
        > 10.4.2 server into production. One of our attorneys (who insists on
        > using WordPerfect and will not switch to Word) is seeing odd behavior
        > using Mac WordPerfect 3.5e updated with the updater, etc., when
        > accessing files on the Xserve file server. I've been able to work
        > around the problem by really cranking down the permissions on the
        > Xserve, but I wondered if you have seen this before and could point me
        > in the direction of a real solution. We are not seeing this behavior
        > with any other program.
        >
        > Issue: If WordPerfect 3.5e merely opens a locked file on the server
        > and copies a selected portion of text to the clipboard and then closes
        > the file without saving or modifying, WordPerfect unlocks the file and
        > changes the modification date of the file. This is causing concern
        > because we need to preserve the modification dates of our files for
        > liability, etc., issues and other reasons.
        >
        > WordPerfect (actually the Finder) does give the warning about opening
        > a locked file and being unable to save changes when the file is
        > initially opened by double-clicking on it, but, upon simply
        > highlighting a section of text and then closing the document window
        > without saving, WordPerfect unlocks the file and changes the
        > modification date and time to the present.
        >
        > By changing the permissions on the entire volume so that this attorney
        > is not the owner of any files and is not in the group for the file
        > (but still has read permission), I've been able to work around this
        > oddity. This behavior is only seen for files accessed on the Xserve,
        > not for files on the local desktop, and happens regardless of whether
        > the Xserve network volume is using POSIX permissions or ACL
        > permissions.
        >
        > The Xserve is 10.4.2 Mac OS Server. The attorney's local computer is
        > Mac OS 9.1 (I haven't been successful in getting WordPerfect to run in
        > Classic mode under 10.4.2, but I'm going to work a bit more at that,
        > which is a separate problem and I see the discussions on that and
        > various approaches to try). I've been able to reproduce the above
        > behavior on a clean install Mac OS 9.1 with all updates, followed by a
        > clean install of WP 3.5e with the updater for Mac OS 8 & 9 applied.
        > We never saw this in the years of using the now-retired ASIP server.
        >
        > It just seems odd that WordPerfect would unlock and then modify a file
        > that it simply opens, selects a portion of text for copying to the
        > clipboard, and then closes without modifying (and there's no
        > close/save dialog to indicate that it is saving/modifying).
        >
        > Any suggestions for a list or direction in which I should look? I'm
        > not a WordPerfect person, otherwise I would know the right resources.
        > I searched in the Yahoo Groups Mac forum for this issue, but can't
        > find a message thread discussing it.
        >
        > Thanks, and best regards,
        >
        > Russ
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
        >
        > * Visit your group "wordperfectmac
        > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wordperfectmac>" on the web.
        >
        > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > wordperfectmac-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:wordperfectmac-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
        >
        > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        >

        --
        ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
        616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
        Martinsville Va 24112 |pjones@..., ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
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      • John Rethorst
        ... Are you using other classic programs? ... In the Open dialog, you could click the Open Copy button. This opens a copy as Untitled, i.e. not saved to disk.
        Message 3 of 8 , Sep 10, 2005
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          > We just retired our old ASIP 4.3 server and put our new
          > Xserve G5 10.4.2 server into production. One of our
          > attorneys (who insists on using WordPerfect and will not
          > switch to Word) is seeing odd behavior using Mac
          > WordPerfect 3.5e updated with the updater, etc., when
          > accessing files on the Xserve file server. I've been able
          > to work around the problem by really cranking down the
          > permissions on the Xserve, but I wondered if you have seen
          > this before and could point me in the direction of a real
          > solution. We are not seeing this behavior with any other
          > program.

          Are you using other classic programs?

          > Issue: If WordPerfect 3.5e merely opens a locked file on
          > the server and copies a selected portion of text to the
          > clipboard and then closes the file without saving or
          > modifying, WordPerfect unlocks the file and changes the
          > modification date of the file.

          In the Open dialog, you could click the Open Copy button. This
          opens a copy as Untitled, i.e. not saved to disk.

          > This is causing concern
          > because we need to preserve the modification dates of our
          > files for liability, etc., issues and other reasons.

          An Applescript can set the modification date of a file to anything.

          > WordPerfect (actually the Finder) does give the warning
          > about opening a locked file and being unable to save
          > changes when the file is initially opened by
          > double-clicking on it, but, upon simply highlighting a
          > section of text and then closing the document window
          > without saving, WordPerfect unlocks the file and changes
          > the modification date and time to the present.

          > By changing the permissions on the entire volume so that
          > this attorney is not the owner of any files and is not in
          > the group for the file (but still has read permission),
          > I've been able to work around this oddity. This behavior
          > is only seen for files accessed on the Xserve, not for
          > files on the local desktop, and happens regardless of
          > whether the Xserve network volume is using POSIX
          > permissions or ACL permissions. The Xserve is 10.4.2 Mac
          > OS Server. The attorney's local computer is Mac OS 9.1 (I
          > haven't been successful in getting WordPerfect to run in
          > Classic mode under 10.4.2, but I'm going to work a bit
          > more at that, which is a separate problem and I see the
          > discussions on that and various approaches to try).

          Shouldn't be a problem. Plenty of people here run WP on Tiger.

          > I've been able to reproduce the above behavior on a clean
          > install Mac OS 9.1 with all updates, followed by a clean
          > install of WP 3.5e with the updater for Mac OS 8 & 9
          > applied. We never saw this in the years of using the
          > now-retired ASIP server.

          > It just seems odd that WordPerfect would unlock and then
          > modify a file that it simply opens, selects a portion of
          > text for copying to the clipboard, and then closes without
          > modifying (and there's no close/save dialog to indicate
          > that it is saving/modifying).

          I think it must be an interaction between the server software and
          the OS. A WordPerfect file is just a Mac file that happens to have
          been created or modified by WP. Unlocking the file on open and
          updating its modification date are things WP can't do on its own.
        • John Rethorst
          ... Good idea (an Applescript can automate it). I m guessing that whatever this server software is up to, it might not respond to the OSX read/write
          Message 4 of 8 , Sep 10, 2005
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            --- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, "Phillip Jones, C.E.T."
            <pjones1@k...> wrote:
            > This is going to be a pain to do if you have gazillions of files.
            >
            > But if he has a few do the following.
            >
            > click on each file one at a time and choose GetInfo. In OSX
            > set to read only.

            Good idea (an Applescript can automate it). I'm guessing that
            whatever this server software is up to, it might not respond
            to the OSX read/write permissions the same as it does to the
            locked status.
          • Phillip M Jones
            Just remembered its called stationery.
            Message 5 of 8 , Sep 10, 2005
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              Just remembered its called stationery.
            • russellhwalker
              ... Thanks, everyone, for the suggestions. I m sure that all of you noticed a typo in my original post - the retired ASIP server was ASIP 6.3, not 4.3 (from
              Message 6 of 8 , Sep 12, 2005
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                --- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, "John Rethorst"
                <jrethorst@y...> wrote:
                > --- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, "Phillip Jones, C.E.T."
                > <pjones1@k...> wrote:
                > > This is going to be a pain to do if you have gazillions of files.
                > >
                > > But if he has a few do the following.
                > >
                > > click on each file one at a time and choose GetInfo. In OSX
                > > set to read only.
                >
                > Good idea (an Applescript can automate it). I'm guessing that
                > whatever this server software is up to, it might not respond
                > to the OSX read/write permissions the same as it does to the
                > locked status.

                Thanks, everyone, for the suggestions. I'm sure that all of you
                noticed a typo in my original post - the retired ASIP server was ASIP
                6.3, not 4.3 (from which we upgraded about ten or so years ago), and I
                was tired when typing the original post. Sorry for the confusion.

                Regarding the suggestion to change everything to Stationery, sorry but
                that's a non-option.

                Regarding the gazillions of files, yes, we have well over 500,000
                files, but they are at most three folder levels deep on the share
                (e.g., "Clients A-F", client name, client matter, then the file), and,
                as I indicated in my original post, I was able to work around the
                problem for the time being by, from terminal as root, chmod */* ugo-w;
                chmod */*/* ugo-w and also by removing this attorney from the server
                admin group. No AppleScript was necessary.

                As I indicated, this attorney is currently running Mac OS 9.1, so, of
                course, there are other Mac OS 9 programs that he runs on the
                server-located files (including, kicking and screaming, Microsoft
                Word). None of the others exhibit this odd behavior of unlocking
                locked files and changing the modification date/time simply upon open
                with no save attempt; only WordPerfect. Now some programs will
                indicate that the file is locked and ask if you want the file to
                become unlocked, and will then do so. But it seems odd that a program
                would unlock the file on its own and change the modification date/time
                without asking.

                Anyway, I've worked around the problem by locking down the permissions
                and it looks like there may be no better solution. The only downside
                of this workaround is that currently-active files in the process of
                revision cannot be written by anyone, and people have to go through an
                "open/save as" step (to read then write the now-unwritable file), then
                delete the older file and rename the "saved as" file.

                Thanks. I'm surprised that this hasn't been seen before. I'll now
                tackle getting WP to run under Classic on Mac OS 10.4.2 so that we can
                retire the Mac OS 9.1 machine. It's possible that the problem will
                still exist under Classic. I'll report results under Classic FYI as
                soon as I get that working.

                Regards,

                Russ
              • russellhwalker
                ... The evidence indicates otherwise if the Unix permissions allow but the file is locked. I ve got an existence proof with over 500,000 instances. This may
                Message 7 of 8 , Sep 12, 2005
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                  --- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, "John Rethorst"
                  <jrethorst@y...> wrote:
                  > Unlocking the file on open and
                  > updating its modification date are things WP can't do on its own.

                  The evidence indicates otherwise if the Unix permissions allow but the
                  file is locked. I've got an existence proof with over 500,000 instances.

                  This may be some artifact of a massive transfer from an ASIP 6.3
                  share, which is why I gave the history. Anyway, if the Unix
                  permissions don't permit writing the file, then WordPerfect doesn't
                  seem to be able to unlock the file and change the modify date/time
                  simply upon opening the file.

                  Russ
                • Phillip Jones, C.E.T.
                  Everyone has to realize that WP Mac is an OS9 program that runs through a emulator when called in OSX. In OS9 go to getInfo and tick the check box for
                  Message 8 of 8 , Sep 12, 2005
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                    Everyone has to realize that WP Mac is an OS9 program that runs through
                    a emulator when called in OSX. In OS9 go to getInfo and tick the check
                    box for stationery which means it will open a "copy" of the file. and
                    not open the original file.

                    russellhwalker wrote:
                    > --- In wordperfectmac@yahoogroups.com, "John Rethorst"
                    > <jrethorst@y...> wrote:
                    >> Unlocking the file on open and updating its modification date are
                    >> things WP can't do on its own.
                    >
                    > The evidence indicates otherwise if the Unix permissions allow but
                    > the file is locked. I've got an existence proof with over 500,000
                    > instances.
                    >
                    > This may be some artifact of a massive transfer from an ASIP 6.3
                    > share, which is why I gave the history. Anyway, if the Unix
                    > permissions don't permit writing the file, then WordPerfect doesn't
                    > seem to be able to unlock the file and change the modify date/time
                    > simply upon opening the file.
                    >
                    > Russ

                    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
                    616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
                    Martinsville Va 24112 |pjones@..., ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
                    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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