Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [woodheat] Re: Build your own stove cheaply and stay warm this winter

Expand Messages
  • Bob Reite
    There are a fair number of EPA certified stoves that do not use a catalyst. They achieve it by using a secondary combustion chamber with preheated air.
    Message 1 of 15 , Sep 28, 2002
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      There are a fair number of EPA certified stoves that do not use a
      catalyst. They achieve it by using a secondary combustion chamber with
      preheated air.

      fiveplanks wrote:
      > I am feeling uncomfortable about this group, is the USA the only
      > country on earth? Is that government on producing emission standards
      > benign? Are they not affected and driven by industry?
      >
      > So lets move forward; what are the emission standards? how do we meet
      > them for europe? how do we produce a stove to meet them? Are you
      > saying that to use rare metals in the stove is the only way? what
      > about secondary combustion? How do we tackle this, forced pre-heated
      > air? down draught primary and recirculated warmed secondary?
      >
      > You have boasted about your credencials. Deliver the goods!
      >
      > G
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In woodheat@y..., <jbc@g...> wrote:
      >
      >>>>>John, you are being mean to me--I was merely trying to help
      >>>>
      > folks
      >
      >>>without much money to keep warm this winter. I have seen several
      >>>posts on this site requesting plans like mine. I enjoy the free
      >>
      > flow
      >
      >>>of information and divergent ideas. Obviously, you do not.
      >>
      >>Oh for heaven's sake, buck up. You WERE advertising, and unless you
      >
      > are
      >
      >>brand spanking new to the world of the internet, you know that it's
      >>considered rude to advertise products on a list. You did what you
      >
      > knew was
      >
      >>questionable and you got called on it. Take your licks like a big
      >
      > boy, and
      >
      >>let's move on.
      >>
      >>JBC
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
      > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
    • Steve Spence
      The Tarm Gasifiers are an excellent example. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology:
      Message 2 of 15 , Sep 28, 2002
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        The Tarm Gasifiers are an excellent example.

        Steve Spence
        Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
        & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology:
        http://www.green-trust.org
        sspence@...
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Bob Reite" <bobr@...>
        To: <woodheat@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 5:04 PM
        Subject: Re: [woodheat] Re: Build your own stove cheaply and stay warm this
        winter


        > There are a fair number of EPA certified stoves that do not use a
        > catalyst. They achieve it by using a secondary combustion chamber with
        > preheated air.
        >
        > fiveplanks wrote:
        > > I am feeling uncomfortable about this group, is the USA the only
        > > country on earth? Is that government on producing emission standards
        > > benign? Are they not affected and driven by industry?
        > >
        > > So lets move forward; what are the emission standards? how do we meet
        > > them for europe? how do we produce a stove to meet them? Are you
        > > saying that to use rare metals in the stove is the only way? what
        > > about secondary combustion? How do we tackle this, forced pre-heated
        > > air? down draught primary and recirculated warmed secondary?
        > >
        > > You have boasted about your credencials. Deliver the goods!
        > >
        > > G
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In woodheat@y..., <jbc@g...> wrote:
        > >
        > >>>>>John, you are being mean to me--I was merely trying to help
        > >>>>
        > > folks
        > >
        > >>>without much money to keep warm this winter. I have seen several
        > >>>posts on this site requesting plans like mine. I enjoy the free
        > >>
        > > flow
        > >
        > >>>of information and divergent ideas. Obviously, you do not.
        > >>
        > >>Oh for heaven's sake, buck up. You WERE advertising, and unless you
        > >
        > > are
        > >
        > >>brand spanking new to the world of the internet, you know that it's
        > >>considered rude to advertise products on a list. You did what you
        > >
        > > knew was
        > >
        > >>questionable and you got called on it. Take your licks like a big
        > >
        > > boy, and
        > >
        > >>let's move on.
        > >>
        > >>JBC
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
        > > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > >
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
        > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
        >
      • Miro
        Very well said! ps: I think I got the J and the C initial but the B initial I must admit I don t know.... ?????? I ve heard H!! Miro ... From:
        Message 3 of 15 , Sep 28, 2002
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          Very well said!

          ps: I think I got the J and the C initial but the B initial I must admit I
          don't know.... ?????? I've heard H!!

          Miro

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: <jbc@...>
          To: <woodheat@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 6:20 PM
          Subject: Re: [woodheat] Re: Build your own stove cheaply and stay warm this
          winter


          >
          > > > >John, you are being mean to me--I was merely trying to help folks
          > > without much money to keep warm this winter. I have seen several
          > > posts on this site requesting plans like mine. I enjoy the free flow
          > > of information and divergent ideas. Obviously, you do not.
          >
          > Oh for heaven's sake, buck up. You WERE advertising, and unless you are
          > brand spanking new to the world of the internet, you know that it's
          > considered rude to advertise products on a list. You did what you knew was
          > questionable and you got called on it. Take your licks like a big boy, and
          > let's move on.
          >
          > JBC
          >
          >
          >
          > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
          > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
        • John Gulland
          ... Except that Tarms aren t EPA certified because central furnaces and boilers were exempted by EPA along with cook stoves and fireplaces. A mistake in my
          Message 4 of 15 , Sep 29, 2002
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment
            > The Tarm Gasifiers are an excellent example.

            Except that Tarms aren't EPA certified because central
            furnaces and boilers were exempted by EPA along with cook
            stoves and fireplaces. A mistake in my opinion because,
            aside from Tarm and one or two others, there are no clean
            burning, efficient furnaces, boilers or cook stoves on the
            NA market. Such exemptions create market distortions and
            block techical advancement.

            John

            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Steve Spence [mailto:sspence@...]
            > Sent: September 28, 2002 7:55 PM
            > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [woodheat] Re: Build your own stove
            > cheaply and stay warm
            > this winter
            >
            >
            > The Tarm Gasifiers are an excellent example.
            >
            > Steve Spence
            > Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
            > & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology:
            > http://www.green-trust.org
            > sspence@...
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Bob Reite" <bobr@...>
            > To: <woodheat@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 5:04 PM
            > Subject: Re: [woodheat] Re: Build your own stove
            > cheaply and stay warm this
            > winter
            >
            >
            > > There are a fair number of EPA certified stoves
            > that do not use a
            > > catalyst. They achieve it by using a secondary
            > combustion chamber with
            > > preheated air.
            > >
            > > fiveplanks wrote:
            > > > I am feeling uncomfortable about this group,
            > is the USA the only
            > > > country on earth? Is that government on
            > producing emission standards
            > > > benign? Are they not affected and driven by industry?
            > > >
            > > > So lets move forward; what are the emission
            > standards? how do we meet
            > > > them for europe? how do we produce a stove to
            > meet them? Are you
            > > > saying that to use rare metals in the stove
            > is the only way? what
            > > > about secondary combustion? How do we tackle
            > this, forced pre-heated
            > > > air? down draught primary and recirculated
            > warmed secondary?
            > > >
            > > > You have boasted about your credencials.
            > Deliver the goods!
            > > >
            > > > G
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > --- In woodheat@y..., <jbc@g...> wrote:
            > > >
            > > >>>>>John, you are being mean to me--I was
            > merely trying to help
            > > >>>>
            > > > folks
            > > >
            > > >>>without much money to keep warm this winter.
            > I have seen several
            > > >>>posts on this site requesting plans like
            > mine. I enjoy the free
            > > >>
            > > > flow
            > > >
            > > >>>of information and divergent ideas.
            > Obviously, you do not.
            > > >>
            > > >>Oh for heaven's sake, buck up. You WERE
            > advertising, and unless you
            > > >
            > > > are
            > > >
            > > >>brand spanking new to the world of the
            > internet, you know that it's
            > > >>considered rude to advertise products on a
            > list. You did what you
            > > >
            > > > knew was
            > > >
            > > >>questionable and you got called on it. Take
            > your licks like a big
            > > >
            > > > boy, and
            > > >
            > > >>let's move on.
            > > >>
            > > >>JBC
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Check THE woodheat web site at
            http://www.woodheat.org
            > > To receive no more messages email:
            woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
            > To receive no more messages email:
            woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >


            ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
            Sponsor ---------------------~-->
            Home Selling? Try Us!
            http://us.click.yahoo.com/QrPZMC/iTmEAA/MVfIAA/icTolB/TM
            ------------------------------------------------------------
            ---------~->

            Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
            To receive no more messages email:
            woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com


            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          • John Gulland
            G, Terribly sorry about being so North America-centric. If I am not mistaken the majority of the list members are in NA and sometimes we get careless. I have
            Message 5 of 15 , Sep 29, 2002
            View Source
            • 0 Attachment
              G,
              Terribly sorry about being so North America-centric. If I am
              not mistaken the majority of the list members are in NA and
              sometimes we get careless.

              I have to admit that I am not too familiar with European
              emissions standards. I know some countries have emission
              limits, but the test protocol is very different than EPA's
              and I think they have limits on carbon monoxide emissions
              (as a surrogate for everything else), whereas EPA regulates
              particulate emissions, which also functions as a surrogate.

              There has been an ongoing effort for many years to create an
              ISO (i.e. worldwide) standard on wood stove emissions. A guy
              from Australia, John Fisher, headed up that effort. I
              participated for a while, but the costs are much too high to
              travel to the meetings, plus they have been bogged down for
              a long time on the basics of test methodology.

              Let us know where you are and maybe somebody can find out
              where things stand in your country.
              John

              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: fiveplanks [mailto:ozzz@...]
              > Sent: September 28, 2002 4:41 PM
              > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [woodheat] Re: Build your own stove
              > cheaply and stay warm this
              > winter
              >
              >
              > I am feeling uncomfortable about this group, is
              > the USA the only
              > country on earth? Is that government on producing
              > emission standards
              > benign? Are they not affected and driven by industry?
              >
              > So lets move forward; what are the emission
              > standards? how do we meet
              > them for europe? how do we produce a stove to
              > meet them? Are you
              > saying that to use rare metals in the stove is
              > the only way? what
              > about secondary combustion? How do we tackle
              > this, forced pre-heated
              > air? down draught primary and recirculated warmed
              > secondary?
              >
              > You have boasted about your credencials. Deliver
              > the goods!
              >
              > G
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In woodheat@y..., <jbc@g...> wrote:
              > >
              > > > > >John, you are being mean to me--I was
              > merely trying to help
              > folks
              > > > without much money to keep warm this winter.
              > I have seen several
              > > > posts on this site requesting plans like
              > mine. I enjoy the free
              > flow
              > > > of information and divergent ideas.
              > Obviously, you do not.
              > >
              > > Oh for heaven's sake, buck up. You WERE
              > advertising, and unless you
              > are
              > > brand spanking new to the world of the
              > internet, you know that it's
              > > considered rude to advertise products on a
              > list. You did what you
              > knew was
              > > questionable and you got called on it. Take
              > your licks like a big
              > boy, and
              > > let's move on.
              > >
              > > JBC
              >
              >
              > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              >
              > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
              > To receive no more messages email:
              > woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            • fiveplanks
              ... No problem, you can respond to each question in turn if you like. I will pass on the US college course, a Brit university was adequate to begin with
              Message 6 of 15 , Sep 29, 2002
              View Source
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In woodheat@y..., "Miro" <mirozieba@i...> wrote:
                > Whoa!!!!
                > One specific question at a time and we'll all get an
                > education. Sounds like you want an online college
                > accredited course ...at a chat site. Some of the items
                > you mention have been discussed quite thoroughly in
                > the past. Have you not been paying attention again!?
                > And please don't start on about the IMF! I believe
                > there's another site for those opinions!
                > Miro
                >

                No problem, you can respond to each question in turn if you like. I
                will pass on the US college course, a Brit university was adequate to
                begin with although education should continue throughout life I
                agree. Your options of "chat" or "college accredited course" sounds
                as if you want to avoid plain intelligent discussion somewhere in-
                between.

                I have recently joined the group so haven't been party to in depth
                discussion here, nor have I seen any in the last few weeks.

                Apart from the International Monetary Fund, what is IMF?

                When our friend says he has stove plans available should we not ask
                him to give us some design details and see what we can learn rather
                than mount an all-out attack?

                I have built several stoves in the past ranging from 28kg gas bottle
                stoves back in the early eighties that were as good as any viking box
                stove of the day to a gassifier re-burner in my last house in the uk.

                I live in Normandy now and many country people here burn wood in both
                open fires and stoves; Godins and Chapées are the most popular. I
                would consider both as old technology.

                Last year I converted a small side loading stove (20 euros at a flea
                market) into a secondary chambered stove with a pleasing amount of
                success. This has been in use at a friends house for one winter and
                shown good fuel savings. I am looking at building a stove for my own
                house at the moment having a ceramic first chamber at the base and a
                steel fabricated second chamber above. I want to contact anyone who
                has experimented with forced recirculated warm air for the second
                burn.

                Perhaps this is just a chat room and I shouldn't be here; I hope not.
                I don't know how many people will be installing 90% efficient multi-
                thousand dollar stoves in the USA but reading of how many Americans
                are living on or below the breadline surely the development of simple
                stove designs in the public domain can only be a good thing? A 20%
                improvement over an open fire is still an improvement.

                G
              • Miro
                G Hopefully you ve received the messages clarifying the misunderstanding concerning homemade stoves. This is a site for in depth learning and personal
                Message 7 of 15 , Sep 29, 2002
                View Source
                • 0 Attachment
                  G
                  Hopefully you've received the messages clarifying the
                  misunderstanding concerning homemade stoves. This
                  is a site for in depth learning and personal experience
                  discussion. But you seemed to present a "challenge"
                  to provide a tome full of information in one email. I was
                  suggesting that you ask one question at a time so that
                  we might address it specifically.
                  (That was the IMF I referred to. Only because your
                  first paragraph had a hint of "socio-economic political"
                  bent. I was trying to keep it light. I know American and
                  British humor differ some so I'll try to remember a "haha"
                  at the end of my joking attempts to affirm my mood.)
                  Looking forward to your participation.
                  Thanks again for Benny Hill, Monty Python, Black Adder, Faulty Towers, and
                  Dr Who.
                  haha
                  Miro

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "fiveplanks" <ozzz@...>
                  To: <woodheat@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2002 11:26 AM
                  Subject: [woodheat] Re: Build your own stove cheaply and stay warm this
                  winter


                  --- In woodheat@y..., "Miro" <mirozieba@i...> wrote:
                  > Whoa!!!!
                  > One specific question at a time and we'll all get an
                  > education. Sounds like you want an online college
                  > accredited course ...at a chat site. Some of the items
                  > you mention have been discussed quite thoroughly in
                  > the past. Have you not been paying attention again!?
                  > And please don't start on about the IMF! I believe
                  > there's another site for those opinions!
                  > Miro
                  >

                  No problem, you can respond to each question in turn if you like. I
                  will pass on the US college course, a Brit university was adequate to
                  begin with although education should continue throughout life I
                  agree. Your options of "chat" or "college accredited course" sounds
                  as if you want to avoid plain intelligent discussion somewhere in-
                  between.

                  I have recently joined the group so haven't been party to in depth
                  discussion here, nor have I seen any in the last few weeks.

                  Apart from the International Monetary Fund, what is IMF?

                  When our friend says he has stove plans available should we not ask
                  him to give us some design details and see what we can learn rather
                  than mount an all-out attack?

                  I have built several stoves in the past ranging from 28kg gas bottle
                  stoves back in the early eighties that were as good as any viking box
                  stove of the day to a gassifier re-burner in my last house in the uk.

                  I live in Normandy now and many country people here burn wood in both
                  open fires and stoves; Godins and Chapées are the most popular. I
                  would consider both as old technology.

                  Last year I converted a small side loading stove (20 euros at a flea
                  market) into a secondary chambered stove with a pleasing amount of
                  success. This has been in use at a friends house for one winter and
                  shown good fuel savings. I am looking at building a stove for my own
                  house at the moment having a ceramic first chamber at the base and a
                  steel fabricated second chamber above. I want to contact anyone who
                  has experimented with forced recirculated warm air for the second
                  burn.

                  Perhaps this is just a chat room and I shouldn't be here; I hope not.
                  I don't know how many people will be installing 90% efficient multi-
                  thousand dollar stoves in the USA but reading of how many Americans
                  are living on or below the breadline surely the development of simple
                  stove designs in the public domain can only be a good thing? A 20%
                  improvement over an open fire is still an improvement.

                  G




                  Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
                  To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com


                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                • The Tates
                  G, don t know anything about building stoves (or even welding) but i know that i like working in the woods and having a coffee or a beer in front of the
                  Message 8 of 15 , Sep 30, 2002
                  View Source
                  • 0 Attachment
                    G,
                    don't know anything about building stoves (or even welding) but i know
                    that i like working in the woods and having a coffee or a beer in front
                    of the woodstove! i also enjoy "listening" to the give & take between
                    the "experts" on stove design & efficiency. i moved out of a large US
                    city 30 yrs ago and haven't looked back. i suspect "the breadline" there
                    is about as long as it is in london, liverpool or any other european
                    city. there is poverty where i live now, but it is a small % of the
                    populace. It is still cost efficient for ANYONE to burn wood here
                    (northern wisconsin). an EPA stove can be had for as low as $300 in the
                    off season and wood is plentiful. scraps from sawmills are often free
                    and cords of popple slabs get as low as $10. even the poor can afford to
                    be environmentally conscious in my neck of the woods.
                    mark

                    fiveplanks wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > Perhaps this is just a chat room and I shouldn't be here; I hope not.
                    > I don't know how many people will be installing 90% efficient multi-
                    > thousand dollar stoves in the USA but reading of how many Americans
                    > are living on or below the breadline surely the development of simple
                    > stove designs in the public domain can only be a good thing? A 20%
                    > improvement over an open fire is still an improvement.
                    >
                    > G
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
                    > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • John Gulland
                    ... I think you make a good point, Mark. Once EPA s regulation was put in place, manufacturers found ways to make low cost, clean burning stoves. One could
                    Message 9 of 15 , Sep 30, 2002
                    View Source
                    • 0 Attachment
                      > even the poor can afford to
                      > be environmentally conscious in my neck of the woods.
                      > mark

                      I think you make a good point, Mark. Once EPA's regulation
                      was put in place, manufacturers found ways to make low cost,
                      clean burning stoves. One could certainly quibble with the
                      quality and durability of some of them, but it is clear that
                      clean burning efficient stoves are not much more expensive
                      than conventional ones. Here in Canada where there is no
                      national emissions regulation, comparible conventional
                      stoves (i.e. glass doors, air wash, decent looks) are only
                      about $200 less than certified stoves that deliver almost
                      30% higher efficiency. The too expensive argument against
                      good technology is over-stated, I think.

                      Here are some reasons why I argue in favor of manufactured,
                      certified stoves over home made ones:

                      1. Manufactured stoves must be safety certifed, meaning they
                      have been tested and their minimum clearances presented on a
                      label on the back of the stove. They also come with an
                      installation manual that explains clearances, chimney
                      requirements and so on. The process of safety certification
                      helps to protect the public from unscrupulous or incompetent
                      manufacturers. But no one checks the work of the home
                      builder.

                      2. Most home builders know how to weld and fabricate, but
                      there is a whole lot more to designing a good stove than
                      building a steel box with door on it. Most home builders I
                      have encountered think wood stove design and installation is
                      'just common sense'. But everything I've learned over the
                      years is that common sense is completely unhelpful in the
                      areas of safety and performance. That is, you can treat this
                      as a folk technology with generally poor results, or you can
                      treat it as a science, learning from all that has gone
                      before, and do a lot better.

                      3. The guy who builds his own stove is confident in his
                      skills and likely figures he knows how to install it
                      correctly too. But if he is wrong, it could be his wife and
                      kids who pay the price for his error. It is one thing to
                      kill yourself due to ignorance or stupidity, but killing
                      others is quite another. My experience is that the
                      application of common sense in the field of wood burning
                      results in house fires. I don't think it would be
                      responsible of me or the Wood Heat Organization to encourage
                      people who already have an unrealistically high opinion of
                      their own knowledge and skills.

                      4. Most insurance companies won't insure a house heated with
                      a home made stove.

                      On the other hand, G wrote:
                      "I have built several stoves in the past ranging from 28kg
                      gas bottle
                      stoves back in the early eighties that were as good as any
                      viking box
                      stove of the day to a gassifier re-burner in my last house
                      in the uk."

                      This sounds to me more like experimentation than black
                      market stove building. Still, it is highly risky unless
                      installation codes are followed exactly.

                      I can hardly chastise people for tinkering with stove
                      technology since I do it myself, see
                      http://www.gulland.ca/homenergy/stove.htm
                      Note that I didn't even attempt to build the firebox. But I
                      would never make and sell what I develop. It is just for my
                      own use.

                      John

                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: The Tates [mailto:5t8s@...]
                      > Sent: September 30, 2002 7:19 AM
                      > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [woodheat] Re: Build your own stove
                      > cheaply and stay warm
                      > this winter
                      >
                      >
                      > G,
                      > don't know anything about building stoves (or
                      > even welding) but i know
                      > that i like working in the woods and having a
                      > coffee or a beer in front
                      > of the woodstove! i also enjoy "listening" to the
                      > give & take between
                      > the "experts" on stove design & efficiency. i
                      > moved out of a large US
                      > city 30 yrs ago and haven't looked back. i
                      > suspect "the breadline" there
                      > is about as long as it is in london, liverpool or
                      > any other european
                      > city. there is poverty where i live now, but it
                      > is a small % of the
                      > populace. It is still cost efficient for ANYONE
                      > to burn wood here
                      > (northern wisconsin). an EPA stove can be had for
                      > as low as $300 in the
                      > off season and wood is plentiful. scraps from
                      > sawmills are often free
                      > and cords of popple slabs get as low as $10. even
                      > the poor can afford to
                      > be environmentally conscious in my neck of the woods.
                      > mark
                      >
                      > fiveplanks wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Perhaps this is just a chat room and I
                      > shouldn't be here; I hope not.
                      > > I don't know how many people will be installing
                      > 90% efficient multi-
                      > > thousand dollar stoves in the USA but reading
                      > of how many Americans
                      > > are living on or below the breadline surely the
                      > development of simple
                      > > stove designs in the public domain can only be
                      > a good thing? A 20%
                      > > improvement over an open fire is still an improvement.
                      > >
                      > > G
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
                      > > To receive no more messages email:
                      > woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                      >
                      > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
                      > To receive no more messages email:
                      > woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • harmonseaver
                      ... (snip) ... I built one like that last year, used it all last Winter in my greenouse with good success. It wasn t perfect but a good experiment, and once
                      Message 10 of 15 , Oct 16, 2002
                      View Source
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In woodheat@y..., "fiveplanks" <ozzz@s...> wrote:
                        (snip)
                        >
                        > I have built several stoves in the past ranging from 28kg gas bottle
                        > stoves back in the early eighties that were as good as any viking box
                        > stove of the day to a gassifier re-burner in my last house in the uk.
                        >
                        > I live in Normandy now and many country people here burn wood in both
                        > open fires and stoves; Godins and Chapées are the most popular. I
                        > would consider both as old technology.
                        >
                        > Last year I converted a small side loading stove (20 euros at a flea
                        > market) into a secondary chambered stove with a pleasing amount of
                        > success. This has been in use at a friends house for one winter and
                        > shown good fuel savings. I am looking at building a stove for my own
                        > house at the moment having a ceramic first chamber at the base and a
                        > steel fabricated second chamber above. I want to contact anyone who
                        > has experimented with forced recirculated warm air for the second
                        > burn.
                        >

                        I built one like that last year, used it all last Winter in my
                        greenouse with good success. It wasn't perfect but a good experiment,
                        and once warmed up was extremely clean burning. I used two 30 gallon
                        steel drums, with homemade refractory (made from portland cement,
                        diatomaceous earth, and perlite) completely lining the bottom one, and
                        a secondary burning chamber in the second one with a big 2.25in steel
                        pipe giving preheated secondary air at the top of the first (lower)
                        drum and a little 1/2" steel pipe giving preheated primary air in the
                        bottom, under the firebrick of the lower drum. Later I put two more
                        1/2" pipes into the top drum for more preheated secondary air. I had a
                        blower that I used sometimes into the big 2.25" secondary air pipe to
                        induce a draft, but once the stove was hot it wasn't needed.
                        Fun stuff. If you're into building stoves, you should check out the
                        stoves list at www.crest.org --- a lot of info on design there. It's
                        a real pity there aren't any really high tech commercial stoves. Some
                        good boilers, but most of the stove manufacturers really miss the
                        boat. I consider any stove that uses a catalyst to be very poor design
                        -- they can't figure out how to make it burn clean, so they try to
                        compensate with a catalyst. Very inefficient, expensive, and catalysts
                        tend to die early. Just saw some info as well that catalysts put out
                        some nasty things on their own.
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.