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Re: Hahsa VS outdoor Hahsa II plans -address

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  • torqueabunch
    -Dennis -- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Dennis I baught a set of Hahsa II plans from Darby Industries a little over a year ago. The address is Darby
    Message 1 of 28 , Feb 23, 2005
      -Dennis -- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis"
      Dennis
      I baught a set of Hahsa II plans from Darby Industries a little over
      a year ago. The address is Darby Industries,Inc. R.R.1 bow 311
      Falls,PA. 18615 . They are on the web also. These are the updated
      plans that cover two models (one is a pallet size stove)and all types
      of installations. Darby still had kit parts at that time. I am happy
      with the info that I have received, but would like to talk to someone
      that ownes and operates a Hahsa. The simplicity and safety that is a
      part of the design impresses me. It would be great if someone that
      owns a Hahsa would speak up.
      <dennisthornton@w...> wrote:
      > I read the HAHSA article in Mothers Earth News many years ago and
      > thought it made a lot of sense. Still do. I'd love to hear lots
      of new
      > info from folks that built and use them. There just doesn't seem
      to be
      > a lot of new info about HAHSAs and that makes me nervous. If it
      was as
      > good as I think it should be I'd think that there would be as info
      about
      > them as there is about the outside boilers. Tain't so tho!
      >
      > I've looked at many outside wood boilers but I have efficiency
      concerns.
      > Plus they're $6000-$10000 for the size I want! I've got a backhoe,
      > cement mixer and lots of sand. How much could it cost me to build a
      > HAHSA?
      >
      >
      _____________________________________________________________________
      >
      > Message: 1
      > Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 00:51:44 -0000
      > From: "torqueabunch" <Gladametyaa@n...>
      > Subject: Hahsa VS outdoor water stove
      >
      >
      > Hello
      > Does anyone have experiance with the Hahsa sand filled masonary
      > outdoor whole house heater? How woul one compare to a modern
      outdoor
      > water stove? Any comments welcome Thanks Dan
      >
      > --
      > No virus found in this outgoing message.
      > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
      > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 2/22/2005
    • torqueabunch
      Hello Steve Steve would you care to say a bit more about your Hahsa expierience? How long did it last? How hard was it to construct? How did it compare to
      Message 2 of 28 , Feb 23, 2005
        Hello Steve
        Steve would you care to say a bit more about your Hahsa expierience?
        How long did it last? How hard was it to construct? How did it
        compare to your other stoves? Thanks Dan--- In
        woodheat@yahoogroups.com, Steve Spence <sspence@g...> wrote:
        > I've built two HAHSA's, built one "outdoor boiler" using a combo
        > wood/oil boiler and a 1000 gallon tank, and installed a commercial
        > outdoor boiler. I liked the combo unit the best, but the hahsa
        units
        > were fine too. the commercial unit was smokey and burned a lot of
        wood .....
        >
        > Steve Spence
        > Dir., Green Trust
        > http://www.green-trust.org
        >
        >
        >
        > torqueabunch wrote:
        >
        > >Hello
        > >Does anyone have experiance with the Hahsa sand filled masonary
        > >outdoor whole house heater? How woul one compare to a modern
        outdoor
        > >water stove? Any comments welcome Thanks Dan
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
        > >To receive no more messages email: woodheat-
        unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > >
        > >Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
      • Steve Spence
        The first unit died when a joint failed, water leaked, and plastic pipes melted from overheating. We replaced with copper, but in digging out the sand and
        Message 3 of 28 , Feb 23, 2005
          The first unit died when a joint failed, water leaked, and plastic pipes
          melted from overheating. We replaced with copper, but in digging out the
          sand and replacing the grid, we cracked the flue at the firebox joint,
          and the firebox filled with sand soon after. When it ran, it ran well,
          and we had no complaints.


          Steve Spence
          Dir., Green Trust
          http://www.green-trust.org

          Contributing Editor
          http://www.off-grid.net
          http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html

          torqueabunch wrote:
          >
          > Hello Steve
          > Steve would you care to say a bit more about your Hahsa expierience?
          > How long did it last? How hard was it to construct? How did it
          > compare to your other stoves? Thanks Dan--- In
          > woodheat@yahoogroups.com, Steve Spence <sspence@g...> wrote:
          >
          >>I've built two HAHSA's, built one "outdoor boiler" using a combo
          >>wood/oil boiler and a 1000 gallon tank, and installed a commercial
          >>outdoor boiler. I liked the combo unit the best, but the hahsa
          >
          > units
          >
          >>were fine too. the commercial unit was smokey and burned a lot of
          >
          > wood .....
          >
          >>Steve Spence
          >>Dir., Green Trust
          >>http://www.green-trust.org
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>torqueabunch wrote:
          >>
          >>
          >>>Hello
          >>>Does anyone have experiance with the Hahsa sand filled masonary
          >>>outdoor whole house heater? How woul one compare to a modern
          >
          > outdoor
          >
          >>>water stove? Any comments welcome Thanks Dan
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
          >>>To receive no more messages email: woodheat-
          >
          > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
          > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • samiamrd
          If I understand the construction of this unit, you have a fire box which is covered with sand. In the sand, you have burried a copper coil heat exchanger and
          Message 4 of 28 , Feb 23, 2005
            If I understand the construction of this unit, you have a fire box
            which is covered with sand. In the sand, you have burried a copper
            coil heat exchanger and the sand is used as a high mass heat transfer
            device. The sand is covered with some type of insulation system as
            well as the outside of the unit(I am assuming masonry). So this unit
            has a lot of mass which holds the heat for a long time. This unit is
            not surrounded by a water jacket and as such, in theory should have a
            better combustion process, if properly seasoned wood is used.

            Since the unit is outside, you either need to have a water to air
            heat exchanger for a forced hot air system, or a circulated loop hot
            water/radiator system in the house. The transfer of the liquid would
            be by pump thus electricity would be needed to heat the house. If a
            pump was not used, you would attempt to boil the water and send it to
            a radiator system.

            Can we assume that these units have good efficiency if each one is
            built by hand. I would assume that like a masonry stove, the skill
            of the builder could contribute to the efficiency of the unit.

            Now, why would I go to all of this trouble other than the potential
            low cost to build?

            Thanks,

            Sam
          • torqueabunch
            -I guess it is like building a custom car. If you enjoy working at a hobby, then the cost avings and self pride are enough reason. You can t count your labor
            Message 5 of 28 , Feb 23, 2005
              -I guess it is like building a custom car. If you enjoy working at a
              hobby, then the cost avings and self pride are enough reason. You
              can't count your labor cost and come out way ahead. Idon't know the
              actual labor involved, but I imagine it to be substancial. Thanks
              Dan -- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "samiamrd" <taborl@w...> wrote:
              >
              > If I understand the construction of this unit, you have a fire box
              > which is covered with sand. In the sand, you have burried a copper
              > coil heat exchanger and the sand is used as a high mass heat
              transfer
              > device. The sand is covered with some type of insulation system as
              > well as the outside of the unit(I am assuming masonry). So this
              unit
              > has a lot of mass which holds the heat for a long time. This unit
              is
              > not surrounded by a water jacket and as such, in theory should have
              a
              > better combustion process, if properly seasoned wood is used.
              >
              > Since the unit is outside, you either need to have a water to air
              > heat exchanger for a forced hot air system, or a circulated loop
              hot
              > water/radiator system in the house. The transfer of the liquid
              would
              > be by pump thus electricity would be needed to heat the house. If
              a
              > pump was not used, you would attempt to boil the water and send it
              to
              > a radiator system.
              >
              > Can we assume that these units have good efficiency if each one is
              > built by hand. I would assume that like a masonry stove, the skill
              > of the builder could contribute to the efficiency of the unit.
              >
              > Now, why would I go to all of this trouble other than the potential
              > low cost to build?
              >
              > Thanks,
              >
              > Sam
            • Steve Spence
              I really dislike buying things completed. Takes the fun out of it. I just know I can build a better mousetrap ...... Steve Spence Dir., Green Trust
              Message 6 of 28 , Feb 23, 2005
                I really dislike buying things completed. Takes the fun out of it. I
                just know I can build a better mousetrap ......

                Steve Spence
                Dir., Green Trust
                http://www.green-trust.org



                torqueabunch wrote:

                >-I guess it is like building a custom car. If you enjoy working at a
                >hobby, then the cost avings and self pride are enough reason. You
                >can't count your labor cost and come out way ahead. Idon't know the
                >actual labor involved, but I imagine it to be substancial. Thanks
                >Dan -- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "samiamrd" <taborl@w...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >>If I understand the construction of this unit, you have a fire box
                >>which is covered with sand. In the sand, you have burried a copper
                >>coil heat exchanger and the sand is used as a high mass heat
                >>
                >>
                >transfer
                >
                >
                >>device. The sand is covered with some type of insulation system as
                >>well as the outside of the unit(I am assuming masonry). So this
                >>
                >>
                >unit
                >
                >
                >>has a lot of mass which holds the heat for a long time. This unit
                >>
                >>
                >is
                >
                >
                >>not surrounded by a water jacket and as such, in theory should have
                >>
                >>
                >a
                >
                >
                >>better combustion process, if properly seasoned wood is used.
                >>
                >>Since the unit is outside, you either need to have a water to air
                >>heat exchanger for a forced hot air system, or a circulated loop
                >>
                >>
                >hot
                >
                >
                >>water/radiator system in the house. The transfer of the liquid
                >>
                >>
                >would
                >
                >
                >>be by pump thus electricity would be needed to heat the house. If
                >>
                >>
                >a
                >
                >
                >>pump was not used, you would attempt to boil the water and send it
                >>
                >>
                >to
                >
                >
                >>a radiator system.
                >>
                >>Can we assume that these units have good efficiency if each one is
                >>built by hand. I would assume that like a masonry stove, the skill
                >>of the builder could contribute to the efficiency of the unit.
                >>
                >>Now, why would I go to all of this trouble other than the potential
                >>low cost to build?
                >>
                >>Thanks,
                >>
                >>Sam
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
                >To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Lu & Dan Nelson
                Anybody want to take on a person who burns tires and used oil in his outdoor boiler in Michigan? I don t have the expertise required but someone is needed to
                Message 7 of 28 , Feb 24, 2005
                  Anybody want to take on a person who burns tires and used oil in his outdoor
                  boiler in Michigan? I don't have the expertise required but someone is
                  needed to step up because there are lots of people reading.



                  I would submit your comments under my name if you don't want to get involved
                  in the discussion.



                  Or if you have info or links I would submit them also.



                  Thanks,



                  Dan Nelson

                  Atlanta GA



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Lu & Dan Nelson
                  Copied below is the posting that has me concerned. Here is the web address. I go by TreeCo http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?p=253589#post253589 Sad?
                  Message 8 of 28 , Feb 24, 2005
                    Copied below is the posting that has me concerned. Here is the web address.
                    I go by TreeCo
                    http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?p=253589#post253589







                    Sad? Hardly where do you think all the tires and used oil you consume go?
                    Many of the tires are ground and burnt in cogeneration plants and the used
                    oil is many times burnt in shop style heaters.
                    John boy, is right there are laws the prohibit you from burning tires in the
                    open, but when done in a furnace It may or may not be legal. Not that I
                    would lose sleep if it where illegal. Much liek I dont lose sleep over
                    driving 5mph over the limit.
                    In actuallity if done right tires dont smoke any more than woods does. What
                    you do is shut the power off to the boiler which allows the water temp to
                    drop. When the temp is at about 100 degrees you put a layer of dry, soft
                    wood like pine, construction waste, cedar, etc. Then you load the tires
                    which you cut into pieces. Shut the door hit the power switch and viola
                    instant btu's. Since the water temp is so low the tires are combusted before
                    the forced draft fan kicks off and as a result they dont smoke much more
                    than anything else. I do the same thing with used oil excpet that I put the
                    oil into a retechangular shaped steel container with a open top. This allows
                    the oil to burn with out leaking out into the ash pan.









                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Meszko William-Q10191
                    All, Used oil gets filtered, re-refined, then used as fuel thinner , ie added to stretch a gallon of gasoline a little farther, esp low octane gas. Tires are
                    Message 9 of 28 , Feb 24, 2005
                      All,

                      Used oil gets filtered, re-refined, then used as "fuel thinner", ie added to
                      stretch a gallon of gasoline a little farther, esp low octane gas.

                      Tires are sometimes burned in concrete kilns or mixed with coal and used
                      where coal is burned. The combustion is controlled, very high temperature,
                      and scrubbed for SO2.

                      Burning tires is considered just above dumping them as a recycling option,
                      according to the Ohio Dept. of Natural Resources, because only 9 of the 32
                      Kwhrs of energy req'd to make a kg of synthetic rubber is recovered by
                      combustion.

                      Uncontrolled tire burning generates many mutagenic air pollutants including
                      dioxins and furans, and is considered hundreds of times more environmentally
                      damaging than residential wood burning.

                      Bill Meszko
                      Fort Worth


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Lu & Dan Nelson [mailto:Hostanut@...]
                      Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 2:23 PM
                      To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [woodheat] RE: Burning tires in an outdoor wood boiler



                      Copied below is the posting that has me concerned. Here is the web address.
                      I go by TreeCo
                      http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?p=253589#post253589







                      Sad? Hardly where do you think all the tires and used oil you consume go?
                      Many of the tires are ground and burnt in cogeneration plants and the used
                      oil is many times burnt in shop style heaters.
                      John boy, is right there are laws the prohibit you from burning tires in the
                      open, but when done in a furnace It may or may not be legal. Not that I
                      would lose sleep if it where illegal. Much liek I dont lose sleep over
                      driving 5mph over the limit.
                      In actuallity if done right tires dont smoke any more than woods does. What
                      you do is shut the power off to the boiler which allows the water temp to
                      drop. When the temp is at about 100 degrees you put a layer of dry, soft
                      wood like pine, construction waste, cedar, etc. Then you load the tires
                      which you cut into pieces. Shut the door hit the power switch and viola
                      instant btu's. Since the water temp is so low the tires are combusted before
                      the forced draft fan kicks off and as a result they dont smoke much more
                      than anything else. I do the same thing with used oil excpet that I put the
                      oil into a retechangular shaped steel container with a open top. This allows
                      the oil to burn with out leaking out into the ash pan.









                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                      Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
                      To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                    • Dennis
                      If you re asking if saving $$ is a driving force I suppose so since it supports the world economy. But I think high efficiency and function could also be a
                      Message 10 of 28 , Feb 24, 2005
                        If you're asking if saving $$ is a driving force I suppose so since it
                        supports the world economy. But I think high efficiency and function
                        could also be a driving force. Having something you can't buy? Maybe.
                        Building it yourself? Icing on the cake! But even if it's only because
                        it's the best out there and even if you have to pay someone else to make
                        it for you it's worth talking about.

                        ________________________________________________________________________

                        Message: 1
                        Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:02:08 -0000
                        From: "samiamrd" <taborl@...>
                        Subject: Re: Hahsa outdoor water stove


                        If I understand the construction of this unit, you have a fire box
                        which is covered with sand. In the sand, you have burried a copper
                        coil heat exchanger and the sand is used as a high mass heat transfer
                        device. The sand is covered with some type of insulation system as
                        well as the outside of the unit(I am assuming masonry). So this unit
                        has a lot of mass which holds the heat for a long time. This unit is
                        not surrounded by a water jacket and as such, in theory should have a
                        better combustion process, if properly seasoned wood is used.

                        Since the unit is outside, you either need to have a water to air
                        heat exchanger for a forced hot air system, or a circulated loop hot
                        water/radiator system in the house. The transfer of the liquid would
                        be by pump thus electricity would be needed to heat the house. If a
                        pump was not used, you would attempt to boil the water and send it to
                        a radiator system.

                        Can we assume that these units have good efficiency if each one is
                        built by hand. I would assume that like a masonry stove, the skill
                        of the builder could contribute to the efficiency of the unit.

                        Now, why would I go to all of this trouble other than the potential
                        low cost to build?

                        Thanks,

                        Sam












                        --
                        No virus found in this outgoing message.
                        Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                        Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 2/22/2005
                      • bobr
                        Unfortunately there are unscrupulous companies that take the used motor oil without any refining and add it to #6 fuel oil.
                        Message 11 of 28 , Feb 24, 2005
                          Unfortunately there are unscrupulous companies that take the used motor
                          oil without any refining and add it to #6 fuel oil.

                          Meszko William-Q10191 wrote:
                          > All,
                          >
                          > Used oil gets filtered, re-refined, then used as "fuel thinner", ie added to
                          > stretch a gallon of gasoline a little farther, esp low octane gas.
                          >
                          > Tires are sometimes burned in concrete kilns or mixed with coal and used
                          > where coal is burned. The combustion is controlled, very high temperature,
                          > and scrubbed for SO2.
                          >
                          > Burning tires is considered just above dumping them as a recycling option,
                          > according to the Ohio Dept. of Natural Resources, because only 9 of the 32
                          > Kwhrs of energy req'd to make a kg of synthetic rubber is recovered by
                          > combustion.
                          >
                          > Uncontrolled tire burning generates many mutagenic air pollutants including
                          > dioxins and furans, and is considered hundreds of times more environmentally
                          > damaging than residential wood burning.
                          >
                          > Bill Meszko
                          > Fort Worth
                          >
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: Lu & Dan Nelson [mailto:Hostanut@...]
                          > Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 2:23 PM
                          > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: [woodheat] RE: Burning tires in an outdoor wood boiler
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Copied below is the posting that has me concerned. Here is the web address.
                          > I go by TreeCo
                          > http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?p=253589#post253589
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Sad? Hardly where do you think all the tires and used oil you consume go?
                          > Many of the tires are ground and burnt in cogeneration plants and the used
                          > oil is many times burnt in shop style heaters.
                          > John boy, is right there are laws the prohibit you from burning tires in the
                          > open, but when done in a furnace It may or may not be legal. Not that I
                          > would lose sleep if it where illegal. Much liek I dont lose sleep over
                          > driving 5mph over the limit.
                          > In actuallity if done right tires dont smoke any more than woods does. What
                          > you do is shut the power off to the boiler which allows the water temp to
                          > drop. When the temp is at about 100 degrees you put a layer of dry, soft
                          > wood like pine, construction waste, cedar, etc. Then you load the tires
                          > which you cut into pieces. Shut the door hit the power switch and viola
                          > instant btu's. Since the water temp is so low the tires are combusted before
                          > the forced draft fan kicks off and as a result they dont smoke much more
                          > than anything else. I do the same thing with used oil excpet that I put the
                          > oil into a retechangular shaped steel container with a open top. This allows
                          > the oil to burn with out leaking out into the ash pan.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
                          > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                        • John Gulland
                          Dan, Some people who are not well informed think it is clever to dispose of garbage in their wood burners. It could be argued that they are both dumb and
                          Message 12 of 28 , Feb 25, 2005
                            Dan,
                            Some people who are not well informed think it is clever to dispose of garbage in their wood burners. It could be argued that they
                            are both dumb and dangerous. See:
                            http://www.woodheat.org/environment/garbage.htm
                            John


                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: Lu & Dan Nelson [mailto:Hostanut@...]
                            > Sent: February 24, 2005 2:59 PM
                            > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [woodheat] Burning tires in an outdoor wood boiler
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Anybody want to take on a person who burns tires and used oil in his outdoor
                            > boiler in Michigan? I don't have the expertise required but someone is
                            > needed to step up because there are lots of people reading.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I would submit your comments under my name if you don't want to get involved
                            > in the discussion.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Or if you have info or links I would submit them also.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Thanks,
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Dan Nelson
                            >
                            > Atlanta GA
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
                            > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • samiamrd
                            Dennis, From a saving dollar perspective, I agree. Using local resorces (wood, rock, sand), I agree. But efficiency and function?, those are big unknowns. I
                            Message 13 of 28 , Feb 25, 2005
                              Dennis,

                              From a saving dollar perspective, I agree. Using local resorces
                              (wood, rock, sand), I agree. But efficiency and function?, those are
                              big unknowns. I assume that the efficiency would be somewhere behind
                              that of an inside masonry heater.(The efficiency is builder dependent
                              {See MHA site}). In the masonry heater(inside house) your high(blast
                              furnace temp combustion) heats stone which transferrs the heat to the
                              room over 12 to 24 hours. With the outside design, you are
                              transferring the heat to stone, then sand, then a water heat
                              exchanger, then the water looses heat on its way to the house, and
                              then heat is removed from the water by a second heat exchanger(of
                              some type). A lot of heat loss should be expected.

                              Combustion: It is very likely that the combustion efficiency
                              increases because it is not surrounded by a water jacket. It is also
                              not cycled on and off by a damper/blower configuration. I like this
                              part because the smoke should be lower if the wood is dry. But, the
                              builder becomes an integral part of the potential efficiency. An
                              inside furnace vs outside Hahsa system wood usage(evaluatio) would
                              help clear up this issue, especially if the year to year temp
                              variation was included in the evaluation process.

                              The heat transfer to stone, to the sand, to the water is the one that
                              makes me question the system. Is the sand a conductor, or an
                              insulator? Is it the same as stone? Also, if the water in the
                              copper tube stops, do you have a melt down?

                              To the end, there are a lot of unknowns, and the amount of solid
                              information on this design is low. The Mother Earth News article
                              (that was attached) did not really cast any light on the subject.
                              Also a search of the web did not turn up very much either. That is
                              why, I sit on the side of lets see the numbers. My grandfather used
                              one, or I heard about someone who had one is not considered data,
                              either. If stove efficiency is data driven(epa certified), we need
                              data. I think that the person in the best position would be the
                              green trust guy who built two units. If measured, is one better than
                              the other? How and why?

                              Sam


                              --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis" <dennisthornton@w...> wrote:
                              > If you're asking if saving $$ is a driving force I suppose so since
                              it
                              > supports the world economy. But I think high efficiency and
                              function
                              > could also be a driving force. Having something you can't buy?
                              Maybe.
                              > Building it yourself? Icing on the cake! But even if it's only
                              because
                              > it's the best out there and even if you have to pay someone else to
                              make
                              > it for you it's worth talking about.
                              >
                              >
                              ______________________________________________________________________
                              __
                              >
                              > Message: 1
                              > Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:02:08 -0000
                              > From: "samiamrd" <taborl@w...>
                              > Subject: Re: Hahsa outdoor water stove
                              >
                              >
                              > If I understand the construction of this unit, you have a fire box
                              > which is covered with sand. In the sand, you have burried a copper
                              > coil heat exchanger and the sand is used as a high mass heat
                              transfer
                              > device. The sand is covered with some type of insulation system as
                              > well as the outside of the unit(I am assuming masonry). So this
                              unit
                              > has a lot of mass which holds the heat for a long time. This unit
                              is
                              > not surrounded by a water jacket and as such, in theory should have
                              a
                              > better combustion process, if properly seasoned wood is used.
                              >
                              > Since the unit is outside, you either need to have a water to air
                              > heat exchanger for a forced hot air system, or a circulated loop
                              hot
                              > water/radiator system in the house. The transfer of the liquid
                              would
                              > be by pump thus electricity would be needed to heat the house. If
                              a
                              > pump was not used, you would attempt to boil the water and send it
                              to
                              > a radiator system.
                              >
                              > Can we assume that these units have good efficiency if each one is
                              > built by hand. I would assume that like a masonry stove, the skill
                              > of the builder could contribute to the efficiency of the unit.
                              >
                              > Now, why would I go to all of this trouble other than the potential
                              > low cost to build?
                              >
                              > Thanks,
                              >
                              > Sam
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --
                              > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                              > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                              > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 2/22/2005
                            • Dennis
                              Sam, now you re getting down to some nittygritty. Ton s of variables isn t there. But the possibility of highly efficient combustion at least exists. Proper
                              Message 14 of 28 , Feb 25, 2005
                                Sam, now you're getting down to some nittygritty.

                                Ton's of variables isn't there. But the possibility of highly efficient
                                combustion at least exists. Proper insulation is a must in all heating
                                situation including transferring from the sand to the building/s. My
                                thoughts are that once the sand is heated and sufficient exchange media
                                is provided (copper tubing) that I don't care how efficient the sand or
                                whatever is as long as it transfers enough to the house. Sufficient
                                media, transfer area and again proper insulation should accomplish that.
                                I can see that PVC might (and has) melted. Don't use PVC! I can't
                                imagine copper melting. Oh I imagine that if the house got cold and you
                                kept pushing wood into the firebox for days before realizing that you
                                still had no heat because the circ pump failed you might get some pretty
                                hot sand, but melt the copper, naahh. There's tons of info on how to
                                build an efficient wood stove so building the firebox wouldn't be a
                                total first experiment.

                                They also wouldn't be an option for everyone. Outside woodfired boilers
                                aren't either. But it's certainly an option for me an many others. I
                                have a small backhoe. Digging and moving tons of sand is an expensive
                                project for many and probably is a major drawback for HAHSAs, but not
                                for me and again, many others who either have one or access to one or a
                                friend.

                                But the unknowns persist! Still don't know why HAHSAs aren't FAR more
                                popular. And INDEED, I'd love to see/read more info/thought/comments on
                                them!

                                ________________________________________________________________________
                                ______________________________________________

                                Message: 7
                                Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 16:13:17 -0000
                                From: "samiamrd" <taborl@...>
                                Subject: Re: Hahsa outdoor water stove


                                Dennis,

                                >From a saving dollar perspective, I agree. Using local resorces
                                (wood, rock, sand), I agree. But efficiency and function?, those are
                                big unknowns. I assume that the efficiency would be somewhere behind
                                that of an inside masonry heater.(The efficiency is builder dependent
                                {See MHA site}). In the masonry heater(inside house) your high(blast
                                furnace temp combustion) heats stone which transferrs the heat to the
                                room over 12 to 24 hours. With the outside design, you are
                                transferring the heat to stone, then sand, then a water heat
                                exchanger, then the water looses heat on its way to the house, and
                                then heat is removed from the water by a second heat exchanger(of
                                some type). A lot of heat loss should be expected.

                                Combustion: It is very likely that the combustion efficiency
                                increases because it is not surrounded by a water jacket. It is also
                                not cycled on and off by a damper/blower configuration. I like this
                                part because the smoke should be lower if the wood is dry. But, the
                                builder becomes an integral part of the potential efficiency. An
                                inside furnace vs outside Hahsa system wood usage(evaluatio) would
                                help clear up this issue, especially if the year to year temp
                                variation was included in the evaluation process.

                                The heat transfer to stone, to the sand, to the water is the one that
                                makes me question the system. Is the sand a conductor, or an
                                insulator? Is it the same as stone? Also, if the water in the
                                copper tube stops, do you have a melt down?

                                To the end, there are a lot of unknowns, and the amount of solid
                                information on this design is low. The Mother Earth News article (that
                                was attached) did not really cast any light on the subject.
                                Also a search of the web did not turn up very much either. That is
                                why, I sit on the side of lets see the numbers. My grandfather used
                                one, or I heard about someone who had one is not considered data,
                                either. If stove efficiency is data driven(epa certified), we need
                                data. I think that the person in the best position would be the
                                green trust guy who built two units. If measured, is one better than
                                the other? How and why?

                                Sam

                                --
                                No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                                Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 2/22/2005
                              • Lu & Dan Nelson
                                Quote: Used oil gets filtered, re-refined, then used as fuel thinner , ie added to Dan, if the baove is any indication of the qaulity of info over at
                                Message 15 of 28 , Feb 26, 2005
                                  Quote:


                                  Used oil gets filtered, re-refined, then used as "fuel thinner", ie added to




                                  Dan, if the baove is any indication of the qaulity of info over at
                                  Woodheat.org, I would take what the say there with ahuge grain of salt. The
                                  above is absolutley false. Heatmore actually sells a waste oil add on type
                                  burner for their wood boilers. Just about every auto repair shop, trucking
                                  company and logging company up here has a waste oile burner in their shop.

                                  BTW I aslo found the burnign trash piece laughable. Obviously the author
                                  isnt aware of the plethora of nasty chemicals found in wood.

                                  __________________
                                  Ben Walker





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • John Gulland
                                  ... I see somebody s not too happy with woodheat.org. But that statement didn t come from the web site. I don t know of its origin. ...
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Feb 28, 2005
                                    > From: Lu & Dan Nelson [mailto:Hostanut@...]

                                    > Used oil gets filtered, re-refined, then used as "fuel thinner", ie added to

                                    > Dan, if the baove is any indication of the qaulity of info over at
                                    > Woodheat.org, I would take what the say there with ahuge grain of salt.

                                    I see somebody's not too happy with woodheat.org. But that statement didn't come from the web site. I don't know of its origin.

                                    > BTW I aslo found the burnign trash piece laughable. Obviously the author
                                    > isnt aware of the plethora of nasty chemicals found in wood.
                                    __________________
                                    > Ben Walker

                                    http://www.woodheat.org/environment/garbage.htm
                                    I wrote the article on garbage burning and I stand behind its contents. Having worked on the wood smoke emissions issue for over 20
                                    years as a consultant, I am quite aware of the constituents of wood smoke. I can back up every statement in the article with
                                    scientific documentation.
                                    John
                                  • Meszko William-Q10191
                                    All, The info on oil recycling comes from the US EPA - I called and asked. Bill Meszko Fort Worth ... From: Lu & Dan Nelson [mailto:Hostanut@BellSouth.net]
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Feb 28, 2005
                                      All,

                                      The info on oil recycling comes from the US EPA - I called and asked.

                                      Bill Meszko
                                      Fort Worth

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: Lu & Dan Nelson [mailto:Hostanut@...]
                                      Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 10:33 PM
                                      To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: RE: [woodheat] Burning tires in an outdoor wood boiler







                                      Quote:


                                      Used oil gets filtered, re-refined, then used as "fuel thinner", ie added to




                                      Dan, if the baove is any indication of the qaulity of info over at
                                      Woodheat.org, I would take what the say there with ahuge grain of salt. The
                                      above is absolutley false. Heatmore actually sells a waste oil add on type
                                      burner for their wood boilers. Just about every auto repair shop, trucking
                                      company and logging company up here has a waste oile burner in their shop.

                                      BTW I aslo found the burnign trash piece laughable. Obviously the author
                                      isnt aware of the plethora of nasty chemicals found in wood.

                                      __________________
                                      Ben Walker





                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                      Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
                                      To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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                                    • Dennis
                                      Hi folks, torqueabunch and Steve Spence , Many years ago when I read the MENs article it made so much sense
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Mar 24, 2005
                                        Hi folks, torqueabunch" <Gladametyaa@...> and Steve Spence
                                        <sspence@...>,

                                        Many years ago when I read the MENs article it made so much sense to me
                                        that I thought the world would convert to HAHSAs. Decades later the
                                        world hasn't. Instead we have outside wood fired boilers everywhere.
                                        I've read that they are horribly inefficient due to incomplete low temp
                                        combustion generating tons of smoke and heat going up the pipe. I've
                                        seen the smoke! Oh the mess is outside so the wife loves it. Since the
                                        husband doesn't have to split, carry inside or listen to wife, he
                                        overlooks having to cut or buy a lot more wood. Heck, I'm considering
                                        spending up to $10,000 for the same reasons! No wonder new
                                        models/brands of the OWFBs are popping up now. But man, that HAHSA
                                        article sure seemed to point out some great ideas!

                                        Ultimately I'd like to see a firebrick lined firebox fed with
                                        unrestricted air producing super hot combustion with the secondary
                                        combustion and almost no smoke with all this heat then reclaimed and
                                        stored in sand, rock or water until needed on demand. Don't load fuel
                                        and restrict air flow, let'er rip. Don't store fuel, store the heat.
                                        Indoor Russian fireplaces burn with unrestricted air flow but store the
                                        heat in a tons of masonry in the chimney. Unfortunately the heat
                                        releases at it's own rate, not by a thermostat, misjudge the afternoon
                                        and build too big a fire in the morning and you'll need to open the
                                        windows and let the extra heat out later in day!

                                        Where space is not an issue, like the outside, why can't we have
                                        complete combustion, store the heat and transfer on demand?

                                        --
                                        No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                        Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                                        Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.0 - Release Date: 3/21/2005
                                      • Gene
                                        Has anybody seen any plans for combining the ideas of a Hahsa and a Russian fireplace? I mean the twists and turns to get more heat out of the exhaust before
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Mar 25, 2005
                                          Has anybody seen any plans for combining the ideas of a Hahsa and a
                                          Russian fireplace? I mean the twists and turns to get more heat out
                                          of the exhaust before it is released to open air? And speaking of
                                          the twists and turns, wouldn't an easy way to do that be to cut and
                                          tape together the tubes inside rolls of carpet, and then then
                                          slather an inch or two of masonry cement round them? You could just
                                          prop them in place with some bricks, and then pour, dump, stack, or
                                          pack whatever combination of masonry "mass" you want around them? I
                                          am not a mason, and the brick work I have seen that goes into
                                          building a masonry stove is intimidating. This would be something
                                          even an idiot like myself could do, filling it with some kind of
                                          concrete/adobe/sand slurry type mix that could be poked and prodded
                                          easily to fill in all the gaps. Then the hard masonry part is only
                                          the firebox, and the basic walls around it. I figure the cardboard
                                          and tape can be burnt out without any problem, this is a tube for
                                          fire, right?

                                          My self esteem is fine, so please feel free to wade in and tell me
                                          the many reasons why these are both bad ideas, or that others have
                                          talked about this in the last week. I have seen a number of thin
                                          skinned people on here who go into a tizzy if somebody doesn't like
                                          their idea, I promise I won't react that way.

                                          Smitty

                                          --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis" <dennisthornton@w...>
                                          wrote:
                                          > Hi folks, torqueabunch" <Gladametyaa@n...> and Steve Spence
                                          > <sspence@g...>,
                                          >
                                          > Many years ago when I read the MENs article it made so much sense
                                          to me
                                          > that I thought the world would convert to HAHSAs. Decades later
                                          the
                                          > world hasn't. Instead we have outside wood fired boilers
                                          everywhere.
                                          > I've read that they are horribly inefficient due to incomplete low
                                          temp
                                          > combustion generating tons of smoke and heat going up the pipe.
                                          I've
                                          > seen the smoke! Oh the mess is outside so the wife loves it.
                                          Since the
                                          > husband doesn't have to split, carry inside or listen to wife, he
                                          > overlooks having to cut or buy a lot more wood. Heck, I'm
                                          considering
                                          > spending up to $10,000 for the same reasons! No wonder new
                                          > models/brands of the OWFBs are popping up now. But man, that HAHSA
                                          > article sure seemed to point out some great ideas!
                                          >
                                          > Ultimately I'd like to see a firebrick lined firebox fed with
                                          > unrestricted air producing super hot combustion with the secondary
                                          > combustion and almost no smoke with all this heat then reclaimed
                                          and
                                          > stored in sand, rock or water until needed on demand. Don't load
                                          fuel
                                          > and restrict air flow, let'er rip. Don't store fuel, store the
                                          heat.
                                          > Indoor Russian fireplaces burn with unrestricted air flow but
                                          store the
                                          > heat in a tons of masonry in the chimney. Unfortunately the heat
                                          > releases at it's own rate, not by a thermostat, misjudge the
                                          afternoon
                                          > and build too big a fire in the morning and you'll need to open the
                                          > windows and let the extra heat out later in day!
                                          >
                                          > Where space is not an issue, like the outside, why can't we have
                                          > complete combustion, store the heat and transfer on demand?
                                          >
                                          > --
                                          > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                          > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                                          > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.0 - Release Date:
                                          3/21/2005
                                        • Harold Everett
                                          I ve been think of an outside boiler as well. After reading the post here I see there are some problems with them, mainly smoke and inefficiency. I ve though
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Mar 25, 2005
                                            I've been think of an outside boiler as well. After
                                            reading the post here I see there are some problems
                                            with them, mainly smoke and inefficiency. I've though
                                            about doing a homemade monotube boiler, but this idea
                                            probably makes more sense.

                                            So in my pipe dreams I'm thinking of making a 10 x 10
                                            x 10 foot poured concrete wall building,building a
                                            masonry fire box inside with a masonry chimney
                                            extending though the roof. I'd want to chimney to be
                                            fifteen feet high or so for a good draft. I'm thinking
                                            of a conventional wood framed roof with shingles,
                                            12/12 pitch with no gutters so leaves won't lay on it.


                                            I though of putting a full sized door in it, or at
                                            least the door jack so if the wood furnace idea didn't
                                            work out I would still have a nice shed. So how would
                                            I go about construction. I think I would form and pour
                                            the walls first, with the door jack set up in the
                                            form.
                                            Next build the firebox and the chimney, getting the
                                            chimney at least above the walls. I'm not sure about
                                            the firebox design, but I'd want an ash dump and a
                                            shaker I think, a door for the combustion chamber, a
                                            door for the ash dump. Some way to control combustion
                                            air. The door for the combustion chamber and the ash
                                            dump would be built in the door jack, which is
                                            basically a steel frame set in concrete. With all that
                                            done I would begin to fill the structure with sand,
                                            layers about 6 inches deep with coils of pipe laid in
                                            between the layers. I could probably use pex, but
                                            might use copper since the temperature limit on pex is
                                            180 degrees.

                                            Once the structure is filled with sand and the loops
                                            are in finish the chimney, build the roof, and
                                            insulate the top of the sand with un faced fiberglass
                                            batts. the exterior concrete walls get insulated with
                                            Styrofoam and covered with stucco, basically Drivit.

                                            This structure would be about 1000 cubic feet, at an
                                            average weight of 125 lbs per foot that would be
                                            125,000 lbs of masonry and sand. Usable heat range for
                                            heating water would be from 130 to 180 or so. Thats a
                                            50 degree rise, if you figure 1 btu per pound x the
                                            rise thats about 6.2 million btus of stored heat when
                                            the sand is at 180.

                                            The house I have has oil heat with a boiler, and an
                                            indirect hot water maker. Heat is exchanged via heat
                                            exchangers in the air handlers. The output on the
                                            boiler is 85,000 btus per hour, worse case scenario I
                                            would need 2 million btus a day if the boiler ran
                                            constantly, which it never does.

                                            I guess you could run the water from the wood boiler
                                            through the the oil boiler using a circulator
                                            controlled by and acurstat which would turn the
                                            circulator off if the temperature drops to low, you
                                            would just need to have the oil burner kick in set
                                            below the wood burner kick off. It would probably be a
                                            good idea to run a potable water safe antifreeze in
                                            the system.

                                            So there it is, feel free to noodle it.
                                            --- Dennis <dennisthornton@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Hi folks, torqueabunch" <Gladametyaa@...>
                                            > and Steve Spence
                                            > <sspence@...>,
                                            >
                                            > Many years ago when I read the MENs article it made
                                            > so much sense to me
                                            > that I thought the world would convert to HAHSAs.
                                            > Decades later the
                                            > world hasn't. Instead we have outside wood fired
                                            > boilers everywhere.
                                            > I've read that they are horribly inefficient due to
                                            > incomplete low temp
                                            > combustion generating tons of smoke and heat going
                                            > up the pipe. I've
                                            > seen the smoke! Oh the mess is outside so the wife
                                            > loves it. Since the
                                            > husband doesn't have to split, carry inside or
                                            > listen to wife, he
                                            > overlooks having to cut or buy a lot more wood.
                                            > Heck, I'm considering
                                            > spending up to $10,000 for the same reasons! No
                                            > wonder new
                                            > models/brands of the OWFBs are popping up now. But
                                            > man, that HAHSA
                                            > article sure seemed to point out some great ideas!
                                            >
                                            > Ultimately I'd like to see a firebrick lined firebox
                                            > fed with
                                            > unrestricted air producing super hot combustion with
                                            > the secondary
                                            > combustion and almost no smoke with all this heat
                                            > then reclaimed and
                                            > stored in sand, rock or water until needed on
                                            > demand. Don't load fuel
                                            > and restrict air flow, let'er rip. Don't store
                                            > fuel, store the heat.
                                            > Indoor Russian fireplaces burn with unrestricted air
                                            > flow but store the
                                            > heat in a tons of masonry in the chimney.
                                            > Unfortunately the heat
                                            > releases at it's own rate, not by a thermostat,
                                            > misjudge the afternoon
                                            > and build too big a fire in the morning and you'll
                                            > need to open the
                                            > windows and let the extra heat out later in day!
                                            >
                                            > Where space is not an issue, like the outside, why
                                            > can't we have
                                            > complete combustion, store the heat and transfer on
                                            > demand?
                                            >
                                            > --
                                            > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                            > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                                            > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.0 - Release
                                            > Date: 3/21/2005
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
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                                          • Harold Everett
                                            How about using a flexible stainless steel flue liner , then corkscrew away. ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Mar 25, 2005
                                              How about using a flexible stainless steel flue liner
                                              , then corkscrew away.
                                              --- Gene <justsomeguync@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Has anybody seen any plans for combining the ideas
                                              > of a Hahsa and a
                                              > Russian fireplace? I mean the twists and turns to
                                              > get more heat out
                                              > of the exhaust before it is released to open air?
                                              > And speaking of
                                              > the twists and turns, wouldn't an easy way to do
                                              > that be to cut and
                                              > tape together the tubes inside rolls of carpet, and
                                              > then then
                                              > slather an inch or two of masonry cement round them?
                                              > You could just
                                              > prop them in place with some bricks, and then pour,
                                              > dump, stack, or
                                              > pack whatever combination of masonry "mass" you want
                                              > around them? I
                                              > am not a mason, and the brick work I have seen that
                                              > goes into
                                              > building a masonry stove is intimidating. This
                                              > would be something
                                              > even an idiot like myself could do, filling it with
                                              > some kind of
                                              > concrete/adobe/sand slurry type mix that could be
                                              > poked and prodded
                                              > easily to fill in all the gaps. Then the hard
                                              > masonry part is only
                                              > the firebox, and the basic walls around it. I
                                              > figure the cardboard
                                              > and tape can be burnt out without any problem, this
                                              > is a tube for
                                              > fire, right?
                                              >
                                              > My self esteem is fine, so please feel free to wade
                                              > in and tell me
                                              > the many reasons why these are both bad ideas, or
                                              > that others have
                                              > talked about this in the last week. I have seen a
                                              > number of thin
                                              > skinned people on here who go into a tizzy if
                                              > somebody doesn't like
                                              > their idea, I promise I won't react that way.
                                              >
                                              > Smitty
                                              >
                                              > --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis"
                                              > <dennisthornton@w...>
                                              > wrote:
                                              > > Hi folks, torqueabunch" <Gladametyaa@n...> and
                                              > Steve Spence
                                              > > <sspence@g...>,
                                              > >
                                              > > Many years ago when I read the MENs article it
                                              > made so much sense
                                              > to me
                                              > > that I thought the world would convert to HAHSAs.
                                              > Decades later
                                              > the
                                              > > world hasn't. Instead we have outside wood fired
                                              > boilers
                                              > everywhere.
                                              > > I've read that they are horribly inefficient due
                                              > to incomplete low
                                              > temp
                                              > > combustion generating tons of smoke and heat going
                                              > up the pipe.
                                              > I've
                                              > > seen the smoke! Oh the mess is outside so the
                                              > wife loves it.
                                              > Since the
                                              > > husband doesn't have to split, carry inside or
                                              > listen to wife, he
                                              > > overlooks having to cut or buy a lot more wood.
                                              > Heck, I'm
                                              > considering
                                              > > spending up to $10,000 for the same reasons! No
                                              > wonder new
                                              > > models/brands of the OWFBs are popping up now.
                                              > But man, that HAHSA
                                              > > article sure seemed to point out some great ideas!
                                              > >
                                              > > Ultimately I'd like to see a firebrick lined
                                              > firebox fed with
                                              > > unrestricted air producing super hot combustion
                                              > with the secondary
                                              > > combustion and almost no smoke with all this heat
                                              > then reclaimed
                                              > and
                                              > > stored in sand, rock or water until needed on
                                              > demand. Don't load
                                              > fuel
                                              > > and restrict air flow, let'er rip. Don't store
                                              > fuel, store the
                                              > heat.
                                              > > Indoor Russian fireplaces burn with unrestricted
                                              > air flow but
                                              > store the
                                              > > heat in a tons of masonry in the chimney.
                                              > Unfortunately the heat
                                              > > releases at it's own rate, not by a thermostat,
                                              > misjudge the
                                              > afternoon
                                              > > and build too big a fire in the morning and you'll
                                              > need to open the
                                              > > windows and let the extra heat out later in day!
                                              > >
                                              > > Where space is not an issue, like the outside, why
                                              > can't we have
                                              > > complete combustion, store the heat and transfer
                                              > on demand?
                                              > >
                                              > > --
                                              > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                              > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                                              > > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.0 -
                                              > Release Date:
                                              > 3/21/2005
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >



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                                            • gladametyaa@netzero.com
                                              Dennice The neighbor has an outdoor stove over 1000 feet from my house and it smolders most of the time. They use it to heat thier domestic hot water all year.
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Mar 27, 2005
                                                Dennice
                                                The neighbor has an outdoor stove over 1000 feet from my house and it smolders most of the time. They use it to heat thier domestic hot water all year. Now we can't put our clothes out on the line in the summer. It is hard on neighborhood relations when one of these damn things is next door. These things should be designed by someone that has to live next to one. Dan
                                              • Dennis
                                                What kind of storage? That s half of the key to my message that started this thread. Efficient combustion (which has been proven to easily done) and lots of
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Mar 29, 2005
                                                  What kind of storage?

                                                  That's half of the key to my message that started this thread.
                                                  Efficient combustion (which has been proven to easily done) and lots of
                                                  storage. That's where I thought the HAHSA idea might be best.

                                                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                                  Message: 4
                                                  Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 22:49:48 -0500
                                                  From: bobr <bobr@...>
                                                  Subject: Re: Digest Number 1080

                                                  I shut mine down and revert to oil heat when the overnight low gets to
                                                  be above freezing. I'm planning to add heat storage this year so that I

                                                  can run the wood boiler efficiently during warmer weather.


                                                  >>>>>>
                                                  Yes, I agree. A friend of mine won't use his in mild weather for the
                                                  same reason. I live in the woods and far upwind of anybody so offending
                                                  the neighbor is not my concern but why waste all that fuel and pollute
                                                  the atmosphere? Especially when they can easily be better!

                                                  ----------------------------------------------------------------

                                                  Message: 3
                                                  Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 04:11:33 GMT
                                                  From: "gladametyaa@..." <Gladametyaa@...>
                                                  Subject: Re: Re: Hahsa VS outdoor water stove

                                                  --
                                                  No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                                  Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                                                  Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.3 - Release Date: 3/25/2005
                                                • bobr
                                                  An insulated 600 gallon water tank in the basement
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Mar 29, 2005
                                                    An insulated 600 gallon water tank in the basement

                                                    Dennis wrote:
                                                    > What kind of storage?
                                                    >
                                                    > That's half of the key to my message that started this thread.
                                                    > Efficient combustion (which has been proven to easily done) and lots of
                                                    > storage. That's where I thought the HAHSA idea might be best.
                                                    >
                                                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                    >
                                                    > Message: 4
                                                    > Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 22:49:48 -0500
                                                    > From: bobr <bobr@...>
                                                    > Subject: Re: Digest Number 1080
                                                    >
                                                    > I shut mine down and revert to oil heat when the overnight low gets to
                                                    > be above freezing. I'm planning to add heat storage this year so that I
                                                    >
                                                    > can run the wood boiler efficiently during warmer weather.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > >>>>>>
                                                    > Yes, I agree. A friend of mine won't use his in mild weather for the
                                                    > same reason. I live in the woods and far upwind of anybody so offending
                                                    > the neighbor is not my concern but why waste all that fuel and pollute
                                                    > the atmosphere? Especially when they can easily be better!
                                                    >
                                                    > ----------------------------------------------------------------
                                                    >
                                                    > Message: 3
                                                    > Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 04:11:33 GMT
                                                    > From: "gladametyaa@..." <Gladametyaa@...>
                                                    > Subject: Re: Re: Hahsa VS outdoor water stove
                                                    >
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