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Re: [woodheat] Open fireplace efficiency (was Leprechaun wood stove!)

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  • Bob Belfer
    John, I don t dispute what you say, but I want to point out that a Rumford per several codes only requires a FP/flue ratio of 20:1 vs 8-12/1 for a conventional
    Message 1 of 13 , Mar 9, 2004
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      John,
      I don't dispute what you say, but I want to point out that a Rumford per several codes only requires a FP/flue ratio of 20:1 vs 8-12/1 for a conventional FP.
      Bob Belfer
      PS Great book, havent gotten to the tape yet, too busy laying up wood for next winter
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: John Gulland
      To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 11:25 AM
      Subject: [woodheat] Open fireplace efficiency (was Leprechaun wood stove!)


      > I was hoping to get a reply on my last reply.
      > It's been awfully quite here.

      Miro,
      (I was away yesterday)

      Yes it is quiet. Did you say something to offend everyone? ;) Or was it me?

      I didn't respond to your last message about open fireplaces because I couldn't think of anything nice to say. Over the years I've
      had this debate with several people and the response is much the same, except for interchanging Isokern for Rumford, Bell Fires, or
      whatever; in other words, pitches for otherwise conventional fireplaces that have interesting shapes and/or materials.

      But standing in front of an open fireplace marveling at the amount of radiant heat and calling it efficiency brings to mind the old
      lads who used to come into my wood stove store and insist that their 1974 vintage Fisher Mama Bear "throws out a good heat" and is
      as efficient as any of these new-fangled stoves. That is, an undeniable perception that masks the underlying reality. Yes, shapely
      open fireplaces with reflective materials do put out more radiant heat than conventional shapes. Below is a chunk of an article I
      did for the October 2003 edition of Mother Earth News magazine.
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      Why this fireplace can't heat
      An open fireplace can't heat a home even though a big fire burning in it releases more than enough energy to do so. Open fireplaces
      have a huge appetite for air and despite decades of tinkering by enthusiasts and entrepreneurs to improve performance, the
      uncontrolled flow of air through these fireplaces condemns them to low efficiency.

      To keep smoke from rolling out into the room, a lot of air must flow through the firebox opening and up the chimney. This excess
      air, as scientists call it, is an efficiency destroyer. The more air flowing through the fireplace that is excess to the minimum
      needed for complete combustion of the firewood, the lower the system efficiency. There are two reasons for this: first, all that air
      dilutes the hot combustion gases, lowering their average temperature; and second, the large resulting volume of excess air and
      exhaust gas must rush through the fireplace and chimney, leaving little time to give up its heat to the structure. Fireplaces
      consume between 150 and 500 cubic feet per minute (cfm) of air whereas wood stoves consume only about 10 cfm when operating
      normally. That difference in air demand is why you can easily heat a small home with a wood stove, but not with a fireplace.
      Conventional fireplaces are also firewood guzzlers, going through at least 20 pounds of wood per hour. In contrast, a wood stove
      that is busy heating an entire house would use only five to ten pounds in an hour, even in cold weather.

      The efficiency at which an open fireplace converts firewood into useable heat is not great, at somewhere between ten and forty per
      cent, depending on the fireplace design. But that figure doesn't account for the effect of the fireplace on the house, which in cold
      weather, is dramatic. Consider that the large amount of air consumed by the fireplace must first be heated by another system,
      otherwise the house temperature would quickly fall almost to outdoor temperature, as cold outdoor replacement air comes in. One
      study found that when the outdoor temperature is around the freezing point, the net efficiency of a conventional fireplace falls to
      less than ten per cent. In very cold weather, the overall efficiency of fireplace operation can be negative when the heating of
      excess air is taken into consideration. In practice, a fire lit in the fireplace would cause the house heating system to work harder
      to keep the house warm than if the fireplace were not burning.

      The negative efficiency of open fireplaces has rendered them an endangered species in cold climate housing, and those already in
      place are rarely used because they increase heating costs but not comfort.
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      So that sums up my view of open fireplaces.

      I think I should also remind you that pitches for commercial products seems to put a chill on a technical discussion.
      John

      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Miro [mailto:miro@...]
      > Sent: March 7, 2004 11:15 PM
      > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [woodheat] Leprechaun wood stove!
      >
      >
      > John
      > I can deliver!
      >
      > I was hoping to get a reply on my last reply.
      > It's been awfully quite here.
      > Miro
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: John Gulland
      > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 4:21 PM
      > Subject: RE: [woodheat] Leprechaun wood stove!
      >
      >
      > > John, Did you get the Leprechaun stove? If so how is it? How well
      > > does it heat? Roger
      >
      > Roger,
      > No, I've been on the road and now our friends who has the stove are on the road, and we want to combine a visit with
      > the pick up,
      > and I need to install a chimney before I can use it (more accurately, have a chimney installed), and the only place a
      > chimney can go
      > is not ideal, especially considering that I am a noisy proponent of good chimney placement so I am dithering over that,
      > and so as a
      > result it looks like the Lebrechaun won't get installed and evaluated this heating season.
      > John
      >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: Roger Nighbert [mailto:roger_nighbert@...]
      > > Sent: March 6, 2004 8:22 PM
      > > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
      > > Subject: [woodheat] Leprechaun wood stove!
      > >
      > >
      > > John, Did you get the Leprechaun stove? If so how is it? How well
      > > does it heat? Roger
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
      > > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
      > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >
      >
      >
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      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
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    • John Gulland
      Bob, Yes, Rumfords have a better internal design aerodynamically than conventional fireplaces with their weird throats and smoke shelves. But it is not just
      Message 2 of 13 , Mar 9, 2004
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        Bob,
        Yes, Rumfords have a better internal design aerodynamically than conventional fireplaces with their weird throats and smoke shelves.
        But it is not just Rumfords that have smaller flue-to-opening ratios than conventionals. If you check most factory-built fireplaces
        you will see a similar ratio, and the reason is a better flowing throat. Still, that ratio doesn't have much to do with efficiency
        and heating capacity.

        Pleased you liked the book. You're way ahead of me in getting next year's firewood together.
        John

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Bob Belfer [mailto:chimneys@...]
        > Sent: March 9, 2004 12:40 PM
        > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [woodheat] Open fireplace efficiency (was Leprechaun wood
        > stove!)
        >
        >
        > John,
        > I don't dispute what you say, but I want to point out that a Rumford per several codes only requires a FP/flue ratio of
        > 20:1 vs 8-12/1 for a conventional FP.
        > Bob Belfer
        > PS Great book, havent gotten to the tape yet, too busy laying up wood for next winter
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: John Gulland
        > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 11:25 AM
        > Subject: [woodheat] Open fireplace efficiency (was Leprechaun wood stove!)
        >
        >
        > > I was hoping to get a reply on my last reply.
        > > It's been awfully quite here.
        >
        > Miro,
        > (I was away yesterday)
        >
        > Yes it is quiet. Did you say something to offend everyone? ;) Or was it me?
        >
        > I didn't respond to your last message about open fireplaces because I couldn't think of anything nice to say. Over the
        > years I've
        > had this debate with several people and the response is much the same, except for interchanging Isokern for Rumford,
        > Bell Fires, or
        > whatever; in other words, pitches for otherwise conventional fireplaces that have interesting shapes and/or materials.
        >
        > But standing in front of an open fireplace marveling at the amount of radiant heat and calling it efficiency brings to
        > mind the old
        > lads who used to come into my wood stove store and insist that their 1974 vintage Fisher Mama Bear "throws out a good
        > heat" and is
        > as efficient as any of these new-fangled stoves. That is, an undeniable perception that masks the underlying reality.
        > Yes, shapely
        > open fireplaces with reflective materials do put out more radiant heat than conventional shapes. Below is a chunk of an
        > article I
        > did for the October 2003 edition of Mother Earth News magazine.
        > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        > Why this fireplace can't heat
        > An open fireplace can't heat a home even though a big fire burning in it releases more than enough energy to do so.
        > Open fireplaces
        > have a huge appetite for air and despite decades of tinkering by enthusiasts and entrepreneurs to improve performance, the
        > uncontrolled flow of air through these fireplaces condemns them to low efficiency.
        >
        > To keep smoke from rolling out into the room, a lot of air must flow through the firebox opening and up the chimney. This excess
        > air, as scientists call it, is an efficiency destroyer. The more air flowing through the fireplace that is excess to the minimum
        > needed for complete combustion of the firewood, the lower the system efficiency. There are two reasons for this: first,
        > all that air
        > dilutes the hot combustion gases, lowering their average temperature; and second, the large resulting volume of excess air and
        > exhaust gas must rush through the fireplace and chimney, leaving little time to give up its heat to the structure. Fireplaces
        > consume between 150 and 500 cubic feet per minute (cfm) of air whereas wood stoves consume only about 10 cfm when operating
        > normally. That difference in air demand is why you can easily heat a small home with a wood stove, but not with a fireplace.
        > Conventional fireplaces are also firewood guzzlers, going through at least 20 pounds of wood per hour. In contrast, a wood stove
        > that is busy heating an entire house would use only five to ten pounds in an hour, even in cold weather.
        >
        > The efficiency at which an open fireplace converts firewood into useable heat is not great, at somewhere between ten
        > and forty per
        > cent, depending on the fireplace design. But that figure doesn't account for the effect of the fireplace on the house,
        > which in cold
        > weather, is dramatic. Consider that the large amount of air consumed by the fireplace must first be heated by another system,
        > otherwise the house temperature would quickly fall almost to outdoor temperature, as cold outdoor replacement air comes in. One
        > study found that when the outdoor temperature is around the freezing point, the net efficiency of a conventional
        > fireplace falls to
        > less than ten per cent. In very cold weather, the overall efficiency of fireplace operation can be negative when the heating of
        > excess air is taken into consideration. In practice, a fire lit in the fireplace would cause the house heating system
        > to work harder
        > to keep the house warm than if the fireplace were not burning.
        >
        > The negative efficiency of open fireplaces has rendered them an endangered species in cold climate housing, and those already in
        > place are rarely used because they increase heating costs but not comfort.
        > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        >
        > So that sums up my view of open fireplaces.
        >
        > I think I should also remind you that pitches for commercial products seems to put a chill on a technical discussion.
        > John
        >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: Miro [mailto:miro@...]
        > > Sent: March 7, 2004 11:15 PM
        > > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
        > > Subject: Re: [woodheat] Leprechaun wood stove!
        > >
        > >
        > > John
        > > I can deliver!
        > >
        > > I was hoping to get a reply on my last reply.
        > > It's been awfully quite here.
        > > Miro
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: John Gulland
        > > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 4:21 PM
        > > Subject: RE: [woodheat] Leprechaun wood stove!
        > >
        > >
        > > > John, Did you get the Leprechaun stove? If so how is it? How well
        > > > does it heat? Roger
        > >
        > > Roger,
        > > No, I've been on the road and now our friends who has the stove are on the road, and we want to combine a visit with
        > > the pick up,
        > > and I need to install a chimney before I can use it (more accurately, have a chimney installed), and the only place a
        > > chimney can go
        > > is not ideal, especially considering that I am a noisy proponent of good chimney placement so I am dithering over that,
        > > and so as a
        > > result it looks like the Lebrechaun won't get installed and evaluated this heating season.
        > > John
        > >
        > > > -----Original Message-----
        > > > From: Roger Nighbert [mailto:roger_nighbert@...]
        > > > Sent: March 6, 2004 8:22 PM
        > > > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
        > > > Subject: [woodheat] Leprechaun wood stove!
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > John, Did you get the Leprechaun stove? If so how is it? How well
        > > > does it heat? Roger
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
        > > > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > > >
        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
        > > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/woodheat/
        > >
        > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > > woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > >
        > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
        > > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
        > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/woodheat/
        >
        > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
        > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
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        >
      • Miro
        John It was probably me. I m confused.... Not having anything nice to say hasn t stopped you in the past. I enjoy your frank non-political discussion. It keeps
        Message 3 of 13 , Mar 9, 2004
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          John

          It was probably me.
          I'm confused.... Not having anything nice to say hasn't stopped you in the past. I enjoy your frank non-political discussion. It keeps things
          from getting muddled in semantics and PC politeness. Which brings me back to our original topic.

          A metal box which has burn controls is a woodstove. If we define a fireplace as anywhere a fire can be ignited then we have to start
          sub-dividing all the terms, which might be the correct approach. For instance as you state, open fireplace. I hesitate to think that the marketing
          people will observe the particulars because of the spin they desire. I've seen an open metal box with no smoke chamber called a fireplace rather
          than "a piece of junk so we can get more of your money". They even say their units are zero clearance when in actuality they're manufactured
          with a shroud that creates the clearance. It boils down to design it or call it what you like for marketing purposes, buyer beware if you don't
          know what you're really buying. And I think that highlights a primary purpose of this site. A brief review of the posts would illustrate that one thing
          we are all trying to be is wiser wood fuel users, from the type of wood, how to split it and the tools needed, burning methods and appliances,
          heating applications, one stove-vs-another, chimney and stove fixes, and even thumbs up or down on local dealers. I'd like to hear from those
          who have had what they learned here alter their original approach, fix, or purchase. You know, a little follow up, like "Did that fix your draft problem?"
          As with many of the discussions that take place here, ultimately we can work through the terminology to address the real problem posed.

          I won't contest the point of woodstoves being a more efficient method of heating. Just the fact of being able to control the burn makes that
          an obvious gimme. The fireplaces that I build are wanted for aesthetics. I've actually been converting some fireplaces to gas recently for the
          aesthetic convenience. If I have someone that is addressing an alternative heating source, and I always ask that question, then I highly
          recommend a hearth and woodstove or wood fired furnace.

          As to the pitch. I don't mean to turn anyone off. I do try to stay away from it. It's just with so much discussion and concern about chimney safety,
          cleaning, etc I feel it dutiful to atleast mention that there is a better product available that they might not be aware of. You'll note that I usually refer
          them to or encourage a search for the info so they can make they're own decision. Not intended any different than say the stove brand comparisons
          made here. But just to know that as far as chimney materials are concerned beyond traditional masonry and metal there is a "better" third choice.

          So, is it warming up "up there" yet? Are the Polar Bears coming in off the ice?
          Do you want to schedule a delivery?
          Miro

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: John Gulland
          To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 11:25 AM
          Subject: [woodheat] Open fireplace efficiency (was Leprechaun wood stove!)


          > I was hoping to get a reply on my last reply.
          > It's been awfully quite here.

          Miro,
          (I was away yesterday)

          Yes it is quiet. Did you say something to offend everyone? ;) Or was it me?

          I didn't respond to your last message about open fireplaces because I couldn't think of anything nice to say. Over the years I've
          had this debate with several people and the response is much the same, except for interchanging Isokern for Rumford, Bell Fires, or
          whatever; in other words, pitches for otherwise conventional fireplaces that have interesting shapes and/or materials.

          But standing in front of an open fireplace marveling at the amount of radiant heat and calling it efficiency brings to mind the old
          lads who used to come into my wood stove store and insist that their 1974 vintage Fisher Mama Bear "throws out a good heat" and is
          as efficient as any of these new-fangled stoves. That is, an undeniable perception that masks the underlying reality. Yes, shapely
          open fireplaces with reflective materials do put out more radiant heat than conventional shapes. Below is a chunk of an article I
          did for the October 2003 edition of Mother Earth News magazine.
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          Why this fireplace can't heat
          An open fireplace can't heat a home even though a big fire burning in it releases more than enough energy to do so. Open fireplaces
          have a huge appetite for air and despite decades of tinkering by enthusiasts and entrepreneurs to improve performance, the
          uncontrolled flow of air through these fireplaces condemns them to low efficiency.

          To keep smoke from rolling out into the room, a lot of air must flow through the firebox opening and up the chimney. This excess
          air, as scientists call it, is an efficiency destroyer. The more air flowing through the fireplace that is excess to the minimum
          needed for complete combustion of the firewood, the lower the system efficiency. There are two reasons for this: first, all that air
          dilutes the hot combustion gases, lowering their average temperature; and second, the large resulting volume of excess air and
          exhaust gas must rush through the fireplace and chimney, leaving little time to give up its heat to the structure. Fireplaces
          consume between 150 and 500 cubic feet per minute (cfm) of air whereas wood stoves consume only about 10 cfm when operating
          normally. That difference in air demand is why you can easily heat a small home with a wood stove, but not with a fireplace.
          Conventional fireplaces are also firewood guzzlers, going through at least 20 pounds of wood per hour. In contrast, a wood stove
          that is busy heating an entire house would use only five to ten pounds in an hour, even in cold weather.

          The efficiency at which an open fireplace converts firewood into useable heat is not great, at somewhere between ten and forty per
          cent, depending on the fireplace design. But that figure doesn't account for the effect of the fireplace on the house, which in cold
          weather, is dramatic. Consider that the large amount of air consumed by the fireplace must first be heated by another system,
          otherwise the house temperature would quickly fall almost to outdoor temperature, as cold outdoor replacement air comes in. One
          study found that when the outdoor temperature is around the freezing point, the net efficiency of a conventional fireplace falls to
          less than ten per cent. In very cold weather, the overall efficiency of fireplace operation can be negative when the heating of
          excess air is taken into consideration. In practice, a fire lit in the fireplace would cause the house heating system to work harder
          to keep the house warm than if the fireplace were not burning.

          The negative efficiency of open fireplaces has rendered them an endangered species in cold climate housing, and those already in
          place are rarely used because they increase heating costs but not comfort.
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

          So that sums up my view of open fireplaces.

          I think I should also remind you that pitches for commercial products seems to put a chill on a technical discussion.
          John

          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Miro [mailto:miro@...]
          > Sent: March 7, 2004 11:15 PM
          > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [woodheat] Leprechaun wood stove!
          >
          >
          > John
          > I can deliver!
          >
          > I was hoping to get a reply on my last reply.
          > It's been awfully quite here.
          > Miro
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: John Gulland
          > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 4:21 PM
          > Subject: RE: [woodheat] Leprechaun wood stove!
          >
          >
          > > John, Did you get the Leprechaun stove? If so how is it? How well
          > > does it heat? Roger
          >
          > Roger,
          > No, I've been on the road and now our friends who has the stove are on the road, and we want to combine a visit with
          > the pick up,
          > and I need to install a chimney before I can use it (more accurately, have a chimney installed), and the only place a
          > chimney can go
          > is not ideal, especially considering that I am a noisy proponent of good chimney placement so I am dithering over that,
          > and so as a
          > result it looks like the Lebrechaun won't get installed and evaluated this heating season.
          > John
          >
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: Roger Nighbert [mailto:roger_nighbert@...]
          > > Sent: March 6, 2004 8:22 PM
          > > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
          > > Subject: [woodheat] Leprechaun wood stove!
          > >
          > >
          > > John, Did you get the Leprechaun stove? If so how is it? How well
          > > does it heat? Roger
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
          > > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
          > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/woodheat/
          >
          > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
          > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >



          Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
          To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com




          ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Yahoo! Groups Links

          a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/woodheat/

          b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

          c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • John Gulland
          Miro, I certainly wouldn t defend conventional factory-built fireplaces. In fact, if I had a mind to waste some firewood, I d sooner do it in a masonry than a
          Message 4 of 13 , Mar 9, 2004
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            Miro,
            I certainly wouldn't defend conventional factory-built fireplaces. In fact, if I had a mind to waste some firewood, I'd sooner do it
            in a masonry than a factory-built fireplace. But I don't, so I won't.

            The reason I like to make so much noise when the word efficiency is used in the context of conventional fireplaces is that there is
            so much misinformation out there about them. So many people have been mislead into thinking that their dream fireplace would not
            only work properly but would provide supplementary heating. Since I am on the receiving end of many complaints and requests for
            suggestions on how to fix conventional fireplaces, and seem to be one of the few people willing to state clearly what the problems
            are with them, I just figure I have a responsibility to do so.

            > I'd
            > like to hear from those
            > who have had what they learned here alter their original approach, fix, or purchase. You know, a little follow up, like
            > "Did that fix your draft problem?"

            Yes, that would be great.

            > So, is it warming up "up there" yet? Are the Polar Bears coming in off the ice?
            > Do you want to schedule a delivery?

            It has been hovering around freezing lately, which is below normal. We still have about six inches of snow on the ground and I'm
            thinking about going for a brief crosscountry ski this afternoon.

            Your reference to delivery went right over my head. You'll have to paint a picture for me.
            John

            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Miro [mailto:miro@...]
            > Sent: March 9, 2004 1:47 PM
            > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [woodheat] Open fireplace efficiency (was Leprechaun wood
            > stove!)
            >
            >
            > John
            >
            > It was probably me.
            > I'm confused.... Not having anything nice to say hasn't stopped you in the past. I enjoy your frank non-political
            > discussion. It keeps things
            > from getting muddled in semantics and PC politeness. Which brings me back to our original topic.
            >
            > A metal box which has burn controls is a woodstove. If we define a fireplace as anywhere a fire can be ignited then we
            > have to start
            > sub-dividing all the terms, which might be the correct approach. For instance as you state, open fireplace. I hesitate to
            > think that the marketing
            > people will observe the particulars because of the spin they desire. I've seen an open metal box with no smoke chamber
            > called a fireplace rather
            > than "a piece of junk so we can get more of your money". They even say their units are zero clearance when in actuality
            > they're manufactured
            > with a shroud that creates the clearance. It boils down to design it or call it what you like for marketing purposes,
            > buyer beware if you don't
            > know what you're really buying. And I think that highlights a primary purpose of this site. A brief review of the posts
            > would illustrate that one thing
            > we are all trying to be is wiser wood fuel users, from the type of wood, how to split it and the tools needed, burning
            > methods and appliances,
            > heating applications, one stove-vs-another, chimney and stove fixes, and even thumbs up or down on local dealers. I'd
            > like to hear from those
            > who have had what they learned here alter their original approach, fix, or purchase. You know, a little follow up, like
            > "Did that fix your draft problem?"
            > As with many of the discussions that take place here, ultimately we can work through the terminology to address the real
            > problem posed.
            >
            > I won't contest the point of woodstoves being a more efficient method of heating. Just the fact of being able to control
            > the burn makes that
            > an obvious gimme. The fireplaces that I build are wanted for aesthetics. I've actually been converting some fireplaces to
            > gas recently for the
            > aesthetic convenience. If I have someone that is addressing an alternative heating source, and I always ask that
            > question, then I highly
            > recommend a hearth and woodstove or wood fired furnace.
            >
            > As to the pitch. I don't mean to turn anyone off. I do try to stay away from it. It's just with so much discussion and
            > concern about chimney safety,
            > cleaning, etc I feel it dutiful to atleast mention that there is a better product available that they might not be aware
            > of. You'll note that I usually refer
            > them to or encourage a search for the info so they can make they're own decision. Not intended any different than say the
            > stove brand comparisons
            > made here. But just to know that as far as chimney materials are concerned beyond traditional masonry and metal there is
            > a "better" third choice.
            >
            > So, is it warming up "up there" yet? Are the Polar Bears coming in off the ice?
            > Do you want to schedule a delivery?
            > Miro
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: John Gulland
            > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 11:25 AM
            > Subject: [woodheat] Open fireplace efficiency (was Leprechaun wood stove!)
            >
            >
            > > I was hoping to get a reply on my last reply.
            > > It's been awfully quite here.
            >
            > Miro,
            > (I was away yesterday)
            >
            > Yes it is quiet. Did you say something to offend everyone? ;) Or was it me?
            >
            > I didn't respond to your last message about open fireplaces because I couldn't think of anything nice to say. Over the
            > years I've
            > had this debate with several people and the response is much the same, except for interchanging Isokern for Rumford,
            > Bell Fires, or
            > whatever; in other words, pitches for otherwise conventional fireplaces that have interesting shapes and/or materials.
            >
            > But standing in front of an open fireplace marveling at the amount of radiant heat and calling it efficiency brings to
            > mind the old
            > lads who used to come into my wood stove store and insist that their 1974 vintage Fisher Mama Bear "throws out a good
            > heat" and is
            > as efficient as any of these new-fangled stoves. That is, an undeniable perception that masks the underlying reality.
            > Yes, shapely
            > open fireplaces with reflective materials do put out more radiant heat than conventional shapes. Below is a chunk of an
            > article I
            > did for the October 2003 edition of Mother Earth News magazine.
            > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            > Why this fireplace can't heat
            > An open fireplace can't heat a home even though a big fire burning in it releases more than enough energy to do so.
            > Open fireplaces
            > have a huge appetite for air and despite decades of tinkering by enthusiasts and entrepreneurs to improve performance, the
            > uncontrolled flow of air through these fireplaces condemns them to low efficiency.
            >
            > To keep smoke from rolling out into the room, a lot of air must flow through the firebox opening and up the chimney. This excess
            > air, as scientists call it, is an efficiency destroyer. The more air flowing through the fireplace that is excess to the minimum
            > needed for complete combustion of the firewood, the lower the system efficiency. There are two reasons for this: first,
            > all that air
            > dilutes the hot combustion gases, lowering their average temperature; and second, the large resulting volume of excess air and
            > exhaust gas must rush through the fireplace and chimney, leaving little time to give up its heat to the structure. Fireplaces
            > consume between 150 and 500 cubic feet per minute (cfm) of air whereas wood stoves consume only about 10 cfm when operating
            > normally. That difference in air demand is why you can easily heat a small home with a wood stove, but not with a fireplace.
            > Conventional fireplaces are also firewood guzzlers, going through at least 20 pounds of wood per hour. In contrast, a wood stove
            > that is busy heating an entire house would use only five to ten pounds in an hour, even in cold weather.
            >
            > The efficiency at which an open fireplace converts firewood into useable heat is not great, at somewhere between ten
            > and forty per
            > cent, depending on the fireplace design. But that figure doesn't account for the effect of the fireplace on the house,
            > which in cold
            > weather, is dramatic. Consider that the large amount of air consumed by the fireplace must first be heated by another system,
            > otherwise the house temperature would quickly fall almost to outdoor temperature, as cold outdoor replacement air comes in. One
            > study found that when the outdoor temperature is around the freezing point, the net efficiency of a conventional
            > fireplace falls to
            > less than ten per cent. In very cold weather, the overall efficiency of fireplace operation can be negative when the heating of
            > excess air is taken into consideration. In practice, a fire lit in the fireplace would cause the house heating system
            > to work harder
            > to keep the house warm than if the fireplace were not burning.
            >
            > The negative efficiency of open fireplaces has rendered them an endangered species in cold climate housing, and those already in
            > place are rarely used because they increase heating costs but not comfort.
            > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            >
            > So that sums up my view of open fireplaces.
            >
            > I think I should also remind you that pitches for commercial products seems to put a chill on a technical discussion.
            > John
            >
            > > -----Original Message-----
            > > From: Miro [mailto:miro@...]
            > > Sent: March 7, 2004 11:15 PM
            > > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
            > > Subject: Re: [woodheat] Leprechaun wood stove!
            > >
            > >
            > > John
            > > I can deliver!
            > >
            > > I was hoping to get a reply on my last reply.
            > > It's been awfully quite here.
            > > Miro
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: John Gulland
            > > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
            > > Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 4:21 PM
            > > Subject: RE: [woodheat] Leprechaun wood stove!
            > >
            > >
            > > > John, Did you get the Leprechaun stove? If so how is it? How well
            > > > does it heat? Roger
            > >
            > > Roger,
            > > No, I've been on the road and now our friends who has the stove are on the road, and we want to combine a visit with
            > > the pick up,
            > > and I need to install a chimney before I can use it (more accurately, have a chimney installed), and the only place a
            > > chimney can go
            > > is not ideal, especially considering that I am a noisy proponent of good chimney placement so I am dithering over that,
            > > and so as a
            > > result it looks like the Lebrechaun won't get installed and evaluated this heating season.
            > > John
            > >
            > > > -----Original Message-----
            > > > From: Roger Nighbert [mailto:roger_nighbert@...]
            > > > Sent: March 6, 2004 8:22 PM
            > > > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
            > > > Subject: [woodheat] Leprechaun wood stove!
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > John, Did you get the Leprechaun stove? If so how is it? How well
            > > > does it heat? Roger
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
            > > > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > > >
            > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
            > > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/woodheat/
            > >
            > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
            > > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
            > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/woodheat/
            >
            > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
            > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Miro
            John You mentioned below about needing a chimney for your Leprechaun but the location was a problem. Though you weren t specific I would think one of my
            Message 5 of 13 , Mar 9, 2004
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              John
              You mentioned below about needing a chimney for your
              Leprechaun but the location was a problem. Though you
              weren't specific I would think one of my Isokern chimneys
              would fill the bill. And I'm thinking "Weekend road trip, ya! ay!"
              Miro
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: John Gulland
              To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 2:42 PM
              Subject: RE: [woodheat] Open fireplace efficiency (was Leprechaun wood stove!)


              Miro,
              I certainly wouldn't defend conventional factory-built fireplaces. In fact, if I had a mind to waste some firewood, I'd sooner do it
              in a masonry than a factory-built fireplace. But I don't, so I won't.

              The reason I like to make so much noise when the word efficiency is used in the context of conventional fireplaces is that there is
              so much misinformation out there about them. So many people have been mislead into thinking that their dream fireplace would not
              only work properly but would provide supplementary heating. Since I am on the receiving end of many complaints and requests for
              suggestions on how to fix conventional fireplaces, and seem to be one of the few people willing to state clearly what the problems
              are with them, I just figure I have a responsibility to do so.

              > I'd
              > like to hear from those
              > who have had what they learned here alter their original approach, fix, or purchase. You know, a little follow up, like
              > "Did that fix your draft problem?"

              Yes, that would be great.

              > So, is it warming up "up there" yet? Are the Polar Bears coming in off the ice?
              > Do you want to schedule a delivery?

              It has been hovering around freezing lately, which is below normal. We still have about six inches of snow on the ground and I'm
              thinking about going for a brief crosscountry ski this afternoon.

              Your reference to delivery went right over my head. You'll have to paint a picture for me.
              John

              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Miro [mailto:miro@...]
              > Sent: March 9, 2004 1:47 PM
              > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [woodheat] Open fireplace efficiency (was Leprechaun wood
              > stove!)
              >
              >
              > John
              >
              > It was probably me.
              > I'm confused.... Not having anything nice to say hasn't stopped you in the past. I enjoy your frank non-political
              > discussion. It keeps things
              > from getting muddled in semantics and PC politeness. Which brings me back to our original topic.
              >
              > A metal box which has burn controls is a woodstove. If we define a fireplace as anywhere a fire can be ignited then we
              > have to start
              > sub-dividing all the terms, which might be the correct approach. For instance as you state, open fireplace. I hesitate to
              > think that the marketing
              > people will observe the particulars because of the spin they desire. I've seen an open metal box with no smoke chamber
              > called a fireplace rather
              > than "a piece of junk so we can get more of your money". They even say their units are zero clearance when in actuality
              > they're manufactured
              > with a shroud that creates the clearance. It boils down to design it or call it what you like for marketing purposes,
              > buyer beware if you don't
              > know what you're really buying. And I think that highlights a primary purpose of this site. A brief review of the posts
              > would illustrate that one thing
              > we are all trying to be is wiser wood fuel users, from the type of wood, how to split it and the tools needed, burning
              > methods and appliances,
              > heating applications, one stove-vs-another, chimney and stove fixes, and even thumbs up or down on local dealers. I'd
              > like to hear from those
              > who have had what they learned here alter their original approach, fix, or purchase. You know, a little follow up, like
              > "Did that fix your draft problem?"
              > As with many of the discussions that take place here, ultimately we can work through the terminology to address the real
              > problem posed.
              >
              > I won't contest the point of woodstoves being a more efficient method of heating. Just the fact of being able to control
              > the burn makes that
              > an obvious gimme. The fireplaces that I build are wanted for aesthetics. I've actually been converting some fireplaces to
              > gas recently for the
              > aesthetic convenience. If I have someone that is addressing an alternative heating source, and I always ask that
              > question, then I highly
              > recommend a hearth and woodstove or wood fired furnace.
              >
              > As to the pitch. I don't mean to turn anyone off. I do try to stay away from it. It's just with so much discussion and
              > concern about chimney safety,
              > cleaning, etc I feel it dutiful to atleast mention that there is a better product available that they might not be aware
              > of. You'll note that I usually refer
              > them to or encourage a search for the info so they can make they're own decision. Not intended any different than say the
              > stove brand comparisons
              > made here. But just to know that as far as chimney materials are concerned beyond traditional masonry and metal there is
              > a "better" third choice.
              >
              > So, is it warming up "up there" yet? Are the Polar Bears coming in off the ice?
              > Do you want to schedule a delivery?
              > Miro
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: John Gulland
              > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 11:25 AM
              > Subject: [woodheat] Open fireplace efficiency (was Leprechaun wood stove!)
              >
              >
              > > I was hoping to get a reply on my last reply.
              > > It's been awfully quite here.
              >
              > Miro,
              > (I was away yesterday)
              >
              > Yes it is quiet. Did you say something to offend everyone? ;) Or was it me?
              >
              > I didn't respond to your last message about open fireplaces because I couldn't think of anything nice to say. Over the
              > years I've
              > had this debate with several people and the response is much the same, except for interchanging Isokern for Rumford,
              > Bell Fires, or
              > whatever; in other words, pitches for otherwise conventional fireplaces that have interesting shapes and/or materials.
              >
              > But standing in front of an open fireplace marveling at the amount of radiant heat and calling it efficiency brings to
              > mind the old
              > lads who used to come into my wood stove store and insist that their 1974 vintage Fisher Mama Bear "throws out a good
              > heat" and is
              > as efficient as any of these new-fangled stoves. That is, an undeniable perception that masks the underlying reality.
              > Yes, shapely
              > open fireplaces with reflective materials do put out more radiant heat than conventional shapes. Below is a chunk of an
              > article I
              > did for the October 2003 edition of Mother Earth News magazine.
              > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              > Why this fireplace can't heat
              > An open fireplace can't heat a home even though a big fire burning in it releases more than enough energy to do so.
              > Open fireplaces
              > have a huge appetite for air and despite decades of tinkering by enthusiasts and entrepreneurs to improve performance, the
              > uncontrolled flow of air through these fireplaces condemns them to low efficiency.
              >
              > To keep smoke from rolling out into the room, a lot of air must flow through the firebox opening and up the chimney. This excess
              > air, as scientists call it, is an efficiency destroyer. The more air flowing through the fireplace that is excess to the minimum
              > needed for complete combustion of the firewood, the lower the system efficiency. There are two reasons for this: first,
              > all that air
              > dilutes the hot combustion gases, lowering their average temperature; and second, the large resulting volume of excess air and
              > exhaust gas must rush through the fireplace and chimney, leaving little time to give up its heat to the structure. Fireplaces
              > consume between 150 and 500 cubic feet per minute (cfm) of air whereas wood stoves consume only about 10 cfm when operating
              > normally. That difference in air demand is why you can easily heat a small home with a wood stove, but not with a fireplace.
              > Conventional fireplaces are also firewood guzzlers, going through at least 20 pounds of wood per hour. In contrast, a wood stove
              > that is busy heating an entire house would use only five to ten pounds in an hour, even in cold weather.
              >
              > The efficiency at which an open fireplace converts firewood into useable heat is not great, at somewhere between ten
              > and forty per
              > cent, depending on the fireplace design. But that figure doesn't account for the effect of the fireplace on the house,
              > which in cold
              > weather, is dramatic. Consider that the large amount of air consumed by the fireplace must first be heated by another system,
              > otherwise the house temperature would quickly fall almost to outdoor temperature, as cold outdoor replacement air comes in. One
              > study found that when the outdoor temperature is around the freezing point, the net efficiency of a conventional
              > fireplace falls to
              > less than ten per cent. In very cold weather, the overall efficiency of fireplace operation can be negative when the heating of
              > excess air is taken into consideration. In practice, a fire lit in the fireplace would cause the house heating system
              > to work harder
              > to keep the house warm than if the fireplace were not burning.
              >
              > The negative efficiency of open fireplaces has rendered them an endangered species in cold climate housing, and those already in
              > place are rarely used because they increase heating costs but not comfort.
              > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              >
              > So that sums up my view of open fireplaces.
              >
              > I think I should also remind you that pitches for commercial products seems to put a chill on a technical discussion.
              > John
              >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: Miro [mailto:miro@...]
              > > Sent: March 7, 2004 11:15 PM
              > > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: Re: [woodheat] Leprechaun wood stove!
              > >
              > >
              > > John
              > > I can deliver!
              > >
              > > I was hoping to get a reply on my last reply.
              > > It's been awfully quite here.
              > > Miro
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: John Gulland
              > > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 4:21 PM
              > > Subject: RE: [woodheat] Leprechaun wood stove!
              > >
              > >
              > > > John, Did you get the Leprechaun stove? If so how is it? How well
              > > > does it heat? Roger
              > >
              > > Roger,
              > > No, I've been on the road and now our friends who has the stove are on the road, and we want to combine a visit with
              > > the pick up,
              > > and I need to install a chimney before I can use it (more accurately, have a chimney installed), and the only place a
              > > chimney can go
              > > is not ideal, especially considering that I am a noisy proponent of good chimney placement so I am dithering over that,
              > > and so as a
              > > result it looks like the Lebrechaun won't get installed and evaluated this heating season.
              > > John
              > >
              > > > -----Original Message-----
              > > > From: Roger Nighbert [mailto:roger_nighbert@...]
              > > > Sent: March 6, 2004 8:22 PM
              > > > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
              > > > Subject: [woodheat] Leprechaun wood stove!
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > John, Did you get the Leprechaun stove? If so how is it? How well
              > > > does it heat? Roger
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
              > > > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > > >
              > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
              > > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/woodheat/
              > >
              > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
              > > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
              > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/woodheat/
              >
              > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
              > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >



              Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
              To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com




              ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Yahoo! Groups Links

              a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/woodheat/

              b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

              c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • John Gulland
              Miro, No, Isokern wouldn t be suitable, but thanks for the offer. John
              Message 6 of 13 , Mar 10, 2004
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              • 0 Attachment
                Miro,
                No, Isokern wouldn't be suitable, but thanks for the offer.
                John

                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Miro [mailto:miro@...]
                > Sent: March 9, 2004 7:36 PM
                > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [woodheat] Open fireplace efficiency (was Leprechaun wood
                > stove!)
                >
                >
                > John
                > You mentioned below about needing a chimney for your
                > Leprechaun but the location was a problem. Though you
                > weren't specific I would think one of my Isokern chimneys
                > would fill the bill. And I'm thinking "Weekend road trip, ya! ay!"
                > Miro
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: John Gulland
                > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 2:42 PM
                > Subject: RE: [woodheat] Open fireplace efficiency (was Leprechaun wood stove!)
                >
                >
                > Miro,
                > I certainly wouldn't defend conventional factory-built fireplaces. In fact, if I had a mind to waste some firewood, I'd
                > sooner do it
                > in a masonry than a factory-built fireplace. But I don't, so I won't.
                >
                > The reason I like to make so much noise when the word efficiency is used in the context of conventional fireplaces is
                > that there is
                > so much misinformation out there about them. So many people have been mislead into thinking that their dream fireplace would not
                > only work properly but would provide supplementary heating. Since I am on the receiving end of many complaints and requests for
                > suggestions on how to fix conventional fireplaces, and seem to be one of the few people willing to state clearly what
                > the problems
                > are with them, I just figure I have a responsibility to do so.
                >
                > > I'd
                > > like to hear from those
                > > who have had what they learned here alter their original approach, fix, or purchase. You know, a little follow up, like
                > > "Did that fix your draft problem?"
                >
                > Yes, that would be great.
                >
                > > So, is it warming up "up there" yet? Are the Polar Bears coming in off the ice?
                > > Do you want to schedule a delivery?
                >
                > It has been hovering around freezing lately, which is below normal. We still have about six inches of snow on the ground and I'm
                > thinking about going for a brief crosscountry ski this afternoon.
                >
                > Your reference to delivery went right over my head. You'll have to paint a picture for me.
                > John
                >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: Miro [mailto:miro@...]
                > > Sent: March 9, 2004 1:47 PM
                > > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
                > > Subject: Re: [woodheat] Open fireplace efficiency (was Leprechaun wood
                > > stove!)
                > >
                > >
                > > John
                > >
                > > It was probably me.
                > > I'm confused.... Not having anything nice to say hasn't stopped you in the past. I enjoy your frank non-political
                > > discussion. It keeps things
                > > from getting muddled in semantics and PC politeness. Which brings me back to our original topic.
                > >
                > > A metal box which has burn controls is a woodstove. If we define a fireplace as anywhere a fire can be ignited then we
                > > have to start
                > > sub-dividing all the terms, which might be the correct approach. For instance as you state, open fireplace. I hesitate to
                > > think that the marketing
                > > people will observe the particulars because of the spin they desire. I've seen an open metal box with no smoke chamber
                > > called a fireplace rather
                > > than "a piece of junk so we can get more of your money". They even say their units are zero clearance when in actuality
                > > they're manufactured
                > > with a shroud that creates the clearance. It boils down to design it or call it what you like for marketing purposes,
                > > buyer beware if you don't
                > > know what you're really buying. And I think that highlights a primary purpose of this site. A brief review of the posts
                > > would illustrate that one thing
                > > we are all trying to be is wiser wood fuel users, from the type of wood, how to split it and the tools needed, burning
                > > methods and appliances,
                > > heating applications, one stove-vs-another, chimney and stove fixes, and even thumbs up or down on local dealers. I'd
                > > like to hear from those
                > > who have had what they learned here alter their original approach, fix, or purchase. You know, a little follow up, like
                > > "Did that fix your draft problem?"
                > > As with many of the discussions that take place here, ultimately we can work through the terminology to address the real
                > > problem posed.
                > >
                > > I won't contest the point of woodstoves being a more efficient method of heating. Just the fact of being able to control
                > > the burn makes that
                > > an obvious gimme. The fireplaces that I build are wanted for aesthetics. I've actually been converting some fireplaces to
                > > gas recently for the
                > > aesthetic convenience. If I have someone that is addressing an alternative heating source, and I always ask that
                > > question, then I highly
                > > recommend a hearth and woodstove or wood fired furnace.
                > >
                > > As to the pitch. I don't mean to turn anyone off. I do try to stay away from it. It's just with so much discussion and
                > > concern about chimney safety,
                > > cleaning, etc I feel it dutiful to atleast mention that there is a better product available that they might not be aware
                > > of. You'll note that I usually refer
                > > them to or encourage a search for the info so they can make they're own decision. Not intended any different than say the
                > > stove brand comparisons
                > > made here. But just to know that as far as chimney materials are concerned beyond traditional masonry and metal there is
                > > a "better" third choice.
                > >
                > > So, is it warming up "up there" yet? Are the Polar Bears coming in off the ice?
                > > Do you want to schedule a delivery?
                > > Miro
                > >
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: John Gulland
                > > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
                > > Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 11:25 AM
                > > Subject: [woodheat] Open fireplace efficiency (was Leprechaun wood stove!)
                > >
                > >
                > > > I was hoping to get a reply on my last reply.
                > > > It's been awfully quite here.
                > >
                > > Miro,
                > > (I was away yesterday)
                > >
                > > Yes it is quiet. Did you say something to offend everyone? ;) Or was it me?
                > >
                > > I didn't respond to your last message about open fireplaces because I couldn't think of anything nice to say. Over the
                > > years I've
                > > had this debate with several people and the response is much the same, except for interchanging Isokern for Rumford,
                > > Bell Fires, or
                > > whatever; in other words, pitches for otherwise conventional fireplaces that have interesting shapes and/or materials.
                > >
                > > But standing in front of an open fireplace marveling at the amount of radiant heat and calling it efficiency brings to
                > > mind the old
                > > lads who used to come into my wood stove store and insist that their 1974 vintage Fisher Mama Bear "throws out a good
                > > heat" and is
                > > as efficient as any of these new-fangled stoves. That is, an undeniable perception that masks the underlying reality.
                > > Yes, shapely
                > > open fireplaces with reflective materials do put out more radiant heat than conventional shapes. Below is a chunk of an
                > > article I
                > > did for the October 2003 edition of Mother Earth News magazine.
                > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                > > Why this fireplace can't heat
                > > An open fireplace can't heat a home even though a big fire burning in it releases more than enough energy to do so.
                > > Open fireplaces
                > > have a huge appetite for air and despite decades of tinkering by enthusiasts and entrepreneurs to improve performance, the
                > > uncontrolled flow of air through these fireplaces condemns them to low efficiency.
                > >
                > > To keep smoke from rolling out into the room, a lot of air must flow through the firebox opening and up the
                > chimney. This excess
                > > air, as scientists call it, is an efficiency destroyer. The more air flowing through the fireplace that is excess
                > to the minimum
                > > needed for complete combustion of the firewood, the lower the system efficiency. There are two reasons for this: first,
                > > all that air
                > > dilutes the hot combustion gases, lowering their average temperature; and second, the large resulting volume of
                > excess air and
                > > exhaust gas must rush through the fireplace and chimney, leaving little time to give up its heat to the structure.
                > Fireplaces
                > > consume between 150 and 500 cubic feet per minute (cfm) of air whereas wood stoves consume only about 10 cfm when operating
                > > normally. That difference in air demand is why you can easily heat a small home with a wood stove, but not with a fireplace.
                > > Conventional fireplaces are also firewood guzzlers, going through at least 20 pounds of wood per hour. In contrast,
                > a wood stove
                > > that is busy heating an entire house would use only five to ten pounds in an hour, even in cold weather.
                > >
                > > The efficiency at which an open fireplace converts firewood into useable heat is not great, at somewhere between ten
                > > and forty per
                > > cent, depending on the fireplace design. But that figure doesn't account for the effect of the fireplace on the house,
                > > which in cold
                > > weather, is dramatic. Consider that the large amount of air consumed by the fireplace must first be heated by
                > another system,
                > > otherwise the house temperature would quickly fall almost to outdoor temperature, as cold outdoor replacement air
                > comes in. One
                > > study found that when the outdoor temperature is around the freezing point, the net efficiency of a conventional
                > > fireplace falls to
                > > less than ten per cent. In very cold weather, the overall efficiency of fireplace operation can be negative when
                > the heating of
                > > excess air is taken into consideration. In practice, a fire lit in the fireplace would cause the house heating system
                > > to work harder
                > > to keep the house warm than if the fireplace were not burning.
                > >
                > > The negative efficiency of open fireplaces has rendered them an endangered species in cold climate housing, and
                > those already in
                > > place are rarely used because they increase heating costs but not comfort.
                > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                > >
                > > So that sums up my view of open fireplaces.
                > >
                > > I think I should also remind you that pitches for commercial products seems to put a chill on a technical discussion.
                > > John
                > >
                > > > -----Original Message-----
                > > > From: Miro [mailto:miro@...]
                > > > Sent: March 7, 2004 11:15 PM
                > > > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
                > > > Subject: Re: [woodheat] Leprechaun wood stove!
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > John
                > > > I can deliver!
                > > >
                > > > I was hoping to get a reply on my last reply.
                > > > It's been awfully quite here.
                > > > Miro
                > > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > > From: John Gulland
                > > > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
                > > > Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 4:21 PM
                > > > Subject: RE: [woodheat] Leprechaun wood stove!
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > > John, Did you get the Leprechaun stove? If so how is it? How well
                > > > > does it heat? Roger
                > > >
                > > > Roger,
                > > > No, I've been on the road and now our friends who has the stove are on the road, and we want to combine a visit with
                > > > the pick up,
                > > > and I need to install a chimney before I can use it (more accurately, have a chimney installed), and the only place a
                > > > chimney can go
                > > > is not ideal, especially considering that I am a noisy proponent of good chimney placement so I am dithering over that,
                > > > and so as a
                > > > result it looks like the Lebrechaun won't get installed and evaluated this heating season.
                > > > John
                > > >
                > > > > -----Original Message-----
                > > > > From: Roger Nighbert [mailto:roger_nighbert@...]
                > > > > Sent: March 6, 2004 8:22 PM
                > > > > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
                > > > > Subject: [woodheat] Leprechaun wood stove!
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > John, Did you get the Leprechaun stove? If so how is it? How well
                > > > > does it heat? Roger
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
                > > > > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
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                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
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                > > >
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                > > >
                > > >
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              • Roger Nighbert
                John, Did you ever get that Leprechaun wood stove? Roger
                Message 7 of 13 , Jul 9, 2004
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                  John,
                  Did you ever get that Leprechaun wood stove? Roger
                • John Gulland
                  Roger, Yes, the Lep is installed, but I am still waiting for some firebox liner parts so I haven t burned it yet. I was told that this stove had been used to
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jul 12, 2004
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                    Roger,
                    Yes, the Lep is installed, but I am still waiting for some firebox liner parts so I haven't burned it yet. I was told that this
                    stove had been used to heat a small house for several years and the hard running cooked the internal parts. When I get the parts and
                    fire it up, I'll take a pic and post it to the list.
                    John

                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Roger Nighbert [mailto:roger_nighbert@...]
                    > Sent: July 9, 2004 6:47 PM
                    > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [woodheat] Leprechaun wood stove!
                    >
                    >
                    > John,
                    > Did you ever get that Leprechaun wood stove? Roger
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
                    > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • roger nighbert
                    John, Thanks, and I look forword to seeing it. Roger John Gulland wrote: Roger, Yes, the Lep is installed, but I am still waiting for some
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jul 12, 2004
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                      John,
                      Thanks, and I look forword to seeing it. Roger

                      John Gulland <john@...> wrote:
                      Roger,
                      Yes, the Lep is installed, but I am still waiting for some firebox liner parts so I haven't burned it yet. I was told that this
                      stove had been used to heat a small house for several years and the hard running cooked the internal parts. When I get the parts and
                      fire it up, I'll take a pic and post it to the list.
                      John

                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Roger Nighbert [mailto:roger_nighbert@...]
                      > Sent: July 9, 2004 6:47 PM
                      > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: [woodheat] Leprechaun wood stove!
                      >
                      >
                      > John,
                      > Did you ever get that Leprechaun wood stove? Roger
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
                      > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >



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