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Re: Connector stove pipe

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  • Harry
    From a cost standpoint would flex SS be much different than just replacing the double wall pipe? I m not big on the flex. It seems it would be impossible to
    Message 1 of 6 , Oct 15, 2010
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      From a cost standpoint would flex SS be much different than just replacing the double wall pipe? I'm not big on the flex. It seems it would be impossible to clean. I can deal with replacing the double wall connector, it's the chimney, supports, flashing, etc that get really expensive. I put a small stove in our greenhouse, I paid $120 for the boxwood stove and the flue and chimney cost $750 and I did all the work. I had hoped to avoid the big cost of the chimney, but what I will have to go with the gospel of John G. I knew in advance what his advice would be, but had hoped he would work a miracle for me. C'est la vie.

      --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, knute wolter <knutewolter@...> wrote:
      >
      > John- Couldn't he fish a flexible 6" ss insert through the exhisting 8" ?
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: johngulland2000 <john@...>
      > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Fri, October 15, 2010 8:05:06 AM
      > Subject: [woodheat] Re: Connector stove pipe
      >
      >  
      > Harry wrote:
      > "Can I install the Vista using the existing 8" double wall?"
      >
      > You could, but the result would violate the manufacturer's installation
      > instructions, would not meet code requirements and probably wouldn't be accepted
      > by an insurance inspector. The problem is that the fireplace chimney is not
      > tested to the same standard as a wood stove chimney; it is not the same product.
      >
      > "Is there a 6" to 8" union?"
      >
      > Some companies make a 6 - 8" increaser for flue pipe, although you might have a
      > little trouble finding one.
      >
      >
      > "If so would the 8" function efficiently?"
      >
      > No. You need to think of the chimney, not as a simple exhaust system, but as the
      > engine that drives the wood heating system. See:
      > http://www.woodheat.org/chimneys/chimneys.htm
      >
      > You will get low draft in a big chimney because a given volume of exhaust flows
      > more slowly through it and the greater surface area of the liner draws more heat
      > from the flue gases as they rise. The best draft is achieved when the exhaust
      > moves quickly and retains its heat until it is expelled outside.
      >
      > You really need to budget for a new chimney or you will suffer with a poorly
      > performing system, which would be a shame because the stove you have in mind is
      > quite a good one.
      > John
      >
      > --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <bryant539117@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Currently, I have Heatilator "fireplace" that burns wood, but doesn't deliver
      > >much heat to the cabin. It has a 12' double wall connection to the chimney and
      > >has an insulated chase enclosing the pipe. It burns very cleanly considering,
      > >but just doesn't produce heat unless we're sitting right in front of it. The
      > >unit is about 10 years old, but gets very little use. I'm looking at replacing
      > >this with a Pacific Energy Vista. The problem is the existing unit has 8" pipe
      > >and the Vista wants 6". I'm looking for options. Can I install the Vista using
      > >the existing 8" double wall? Is there a 6" to 8" union? If so would the 8"
      > >function efficiently? I don't want to nearly double the cost by having to
      > >replace the stove pipe and chimney. I would like to remove the chase and connect
      > >to the existing exhaust system. Physical setup of the cabin... one large room
      > >open to the roof, with 3 bedrooms and kitchen connecting to the central room.
      > >Total footprint of just under 1000 square feet, but lots of open space floor to
      > >roof. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
      > >
      > > Thanks,
      > > Harry
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • taborl@war.wyeth.com
      Putting a SS flex liner down the chimney does take care of the size vs draft issue, however it does not fix the safety issue related to a potential chimney
      Message 2 of 6 , Oct 15, 2010
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        Putting a SS flex liner down the chimney does take care of the size vs draft issue, however it does not fix the safety issue related to a potential chimney fire. The SS liner would be burned away almost immediately, then the only protection left would be the double wall which wont take the heat of a chimney fire. In a normal SS flex liner install, the liner is proteced by a vent space, then the clay liner, then the outter chimney blocks.

        There needs to be some type of 2100 degree insulation between the stove pipe and the building. This means that a new chimney needs to be installed. There is a bight side. If the 8 inch double walled pipe had the proper spacing between, it and the structure, it could be pulled out of the space, and a 6 inch class A chimney could be slid down into the space and possibly have right vent space requirements to operate properly. A chimney sweep should be consulted to make sure that the space is big enough to handle the class A chimney. A 6 inch class A chimney should have 2 inches of space outside of the insulated outter shell, which translated into a an approximate 14 inch hole.


        Goodluck,

        Sam






        --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, knute wolter <knutewolter@...> wrote:
        >
        > John- Couldn't he fish a flexible 6" ss insert through the exhisting 8" ?
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: johngulland2000 <john@...>
        > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Fri, October 15, 2010 8:05:06 AM
        > Subject: [woodheat] Re: Connector stove pipe
        >
        >  
        > Harry wrote:
        > "Can I install the Vista using the existing 8" double wall?"
        >
        > You could, but the result would violate the manufacturer's installation
        > instructions, would not meet code requirements and probably wouldn't be accepted
        > by an insurance inspector. The problem is that the fireplace chimney is not
        > tested to the same standard as a wood stove chimney; it is not the same product.
        >
        > "Is there a 6" to 8" union?"
        >
        > Some companies make a 6 - 8" increaser for flue pipe, although you might have a
        > little trouble finding one.
        >
        >
        > "If so would the 8" function efficiently?"
        >
        > No. You need to think of the chimney, not as a simple exhaust system, but as the
        > engine that drives the wood heating system. See:
        > http://www.woodheat.org/chimneys/chimneys.htm
        >
        > You will get low draft in a big chimney because a given volume of exhaust flows
        > more slowly through it and the greater surface area of the liner draws more heat
        > from the flue gases as they rise. The best draft is achieved when the exhaust
        > moves quickly and retains its heat until it is expelled outside.
        >
        > You really need to budget for a new chimney or you will suffer with a poorly
        > performing system, which would be a shame because the stove you have in mind is
        > quite a good one.
        > John
        >
        > --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <bryant539117@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Currently, I have Heatilator "fireplace" that burns wood, but doesn't deliver
        > >much heat to the cabin. It has a 12' double wall connection to the chimney and
        > >has an insulated chase enclosing the pipe. It burns very cleanly considering,
        > >but just doesn't produce heat unless we're sitting right in front of it. The
        > >unit is about 10 years old, but gets very little use. I'm looking at replacing
        > >this with a Pacific Energy Vista. The problem is the existing unit has 8" pipe
        > >and the Vista wants 6". I'm looking for options. Can I install the Vista using
        > >the existing 8" double wall? Is there a 6" to 8" union? If so would the 8"
        > >function efficiently? I don't want to nearly double the cost by having to
        > >replace the stove pipe and chimney. I would like to remove the chase and connect
        > >to the existing exhaust system. Physical setup of the cabin... one large room
        > >open to the roof, with 3 bedrooms and kitchen connecting to the central room.
        > >Total footprint of just under 1000 square feet, but lots of open space floor to
        > >roof. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
        > >
        > > Thanks,
        > > Harry
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • johngulland2000
        ... He could physically do that, but the rules for relining prefab chimneys are a little strange. Here in Canada, you can only reline a metal chimney for a
        Message 3 of 6 , Oct 16, 2010
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          --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, knute wolter <knutewolter@...> wrote:
          > John- Couldn't he fish a flexible 6" ss insert through the exhisting 8" ?

          He could physically do that, but the rules for relining prefab chimneys are a little strange. Here in Canada, you can only reline a metal chimney for a wood heater if the original chimney meets code requirements but is just too big. That is a very rare case. In this case, the original chimney isn't suitable. I'm not sure what the rules are in the US.

          (Before anyone starts carping about excessive government regulation limiting people's creativity, let me point out that I was there in committee when that decision was made and can confirm that the chimney manufacturers around the table didn't want their products relined as a way to upgrade them from factory-built fireplace to wood stove ratings. Too risky from a liability standpoint.)

          The other hard part about relining metal chimneys is supporting the liner and adapting to the top and bottom of the chimney to seal off the space between. In most cases you would have to hack together something yourself, which also violates the rules.

          A couple of other points:
          SS flex liner has proven itself in thirty years of use. It does not 'burn away', even during a chimney fire unless something really extreme happens. It is tested to roughly the same temperatures as high temp chimney.
          It is not difficult to clean, despite the ribs in its structure, unless the appliance is constantly smoldered. But then sticky creosote is hard to remove from all liners, including clay. I'm not promoting flex in particular, but there must be hundreds of thousands of chimneys out there with stainless liners in them working away reliably.

          End of today's sermon :)
          John
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