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Re: [woodheat] Re: Englander 28-3500 Wood burning furnace

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  • Dave N
    Alan, I have seen these double barrel stoves for years here in AK but never tried one out. One of my favorite stoves I had was a 24 long Yodell (not sure
    Message 1 of 18 , Jul 6, 2008
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      Alan,

      I have seen these double barrel stoves for years here in AK but never tried one out. One of my favorite stoves I had was a 24" long Yodell (not sure about the spelling) Actually it was a Taiwan knockoff of one but it had a smoke shelf and the fire burned very clean and just from the end of the logs just like a cigarette would burn in an ash tray. I have owned several Vermont Castings which have secondary air and if I was burning it hot it would combust the secondary gases, but most of the time it didn't that I could tell. Even with that the flame path was still longer then a straight firebox with no smoke shelf and the fire just burned at the bottom and not smolder the whole load. If the Englander has just a firebox then it wouldn't be worth the money in my opinion.
      Dave
      Haines, AK


      ----- Original Message ----
      From: Alan <rustaholic777@...>
      To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, July 6, 2008 11:03:08 AM
      Subject: Re: [woodheat] Re: Englander 28-3500 Wood burning furnace


      Yes, Dave,
      I read the manual for that stove and it does not have secondary combustion.
      If it did I am sure they would say so!!!!
      I like your idea of the wall, grate and return ducts.

      My wood stove is very close to the stairway so we leave the stair door open.
      There is a a thermometer at the top of the stairs in the hallway.
      There is one right on the stairs close to the stove and one more on a
      floor joist eight feet away from the stove on the other side.
      With these three therms. I can see that most of the heat goes up the stairway.
      I would get even better heat flow if I put a large vent in the hall floor farthest away from the stairway.

      I am also looking for a good tank to mount over my stove to run the exhaust through
      and add some secondary air.
      More like a red-neck EPA stove,,,,

      I've had a stove working like that before.
      It was a home built two 15 gallon barrel stove that my father-in-law made.
      His connector pipe between the barrels was two rings of steel welded together
      and sealed with furnace cement.
      Cleaning the stove for year two the furnace cement fell off.
      I had already started a fire so I saw what happened when a ring of 1/8" x 1" slits all the way around that pipe started letting fresh air in.

      That second year:
      My smoke was cleaner
      I used about half as much firewood
      My house was much warmer

      I have seen two of them now.
      About as tall as a 100 pound LP cylinder, but much fatter.
      Probably a 200 or 250 pound LP tank.
      I will finish this email and go google LP tank sizes. 8>))

      Alan in Michigan

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Alan
      Wow, Dave. You mean you bought that stove with secondary combustion and it didn t work all the time???? My accidental entry to secondary combustion wood stove
      Message 2 of 18 , Jul 6, 2008
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        Wow, Dave.
        You mean you bought that stove with secondary combustion and it didn't work all the time????

        My accidental entry to secondary combustion wood stove life sure was different.
        Once that furnace cement fell off I only had to build small fires because that top barrel would kick off in just a minute and roar to life.
        Year one without the secondary air,,,,
        I had to build big fires and the bottom barrel would get red hot.
        Year two, and after, with the secondary air,,,,,
        I built small fires and the top barrel would get red.

        Now with this nice heavy 535 pound All Nighter,,, 
        If I can find a 200 pound LP tank it will be a great match for my stove.

        The exhaust from the All Nighter  is in the back,,,
        So,, An elbow up and into the LP tank.
        A diverter inside the tank so the final exhaust can be from the top back of the tank.

        I will match the air intake to what was on my old barrel stove because it worked so good.

        Rolling two bands of steel sized so that 6" pipe will fit them then welding the two together
        by spacing them 1/8" apart and welding an inch and skipping an inch all the way around.
        Then welding one of them into the LP tank.

        For steel to roll I will probably just use something that is laying around here.
        Maybe the skin from an old washer or dryer.

        I still would like to hear some suggestions as to what I should use for a diverter inside the LP tank.

        Alan in Michigan

        --- On Sun, 7/6/08, Dave N <dcn51555@...> wrote:
        From: Dave N <dcn51555@...>
        Subject: Re: [woodheat] Re: Englander 28-3500 Wood burning furnace
        To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 4:03 PM
        Alan,

        I have seen these double barrel stoves for years here in AK but never tried one
        out. One of my favorite stoves I had was a 24" long Yodell (not sure about
        the spelling) Actually it was a Taiwan knockoff of one but it had a smoke shelf
        and the fire burned very clean and just from the end of the logs just like a
        cigarette would burn in an ash tray. I have owned several Vermont Castings
        which have secondary air and if I was burning it hot it would combust the
        secondary gases, but most of the time it didn't that I could tell. Even
        with that the flame path was still longer then a straight firebox with no smoke
        shelf and the fire just burned at the bottom and not smolder the whole load. If
        the Englander has just a firebox then it wouldn't be worth the money in my
        opinion.
        Dave
        Haines, AK

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • samiamrd
        I might as well jump in here. The Englander 28-3500 is a small wood furnace. Simple design and built for forced hot air application. The wood furnaces that
        Message 3 of 18 , Jul 6, 2008
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          I might as well jump in here. The Englander 28-3500 is a small wood
          furnace. Simple design and built for forced hot air application.
          The wood furnaces that are about equal to it do not cost $4000 to
          $8000 unless if you go with the multifuel design(wood/oil or
          Wood/NG). The 400-8000 range for a average wood only furnaces would
          get you a medium outside wood boiler unit to a small downdraft
          boiler.

          The forced hot air units that are similar to the Englander furnace
          would be the US stove Hotblast 1200 and 1400 unit, Drolet 1400, the
          US stove Clayton units, Yukon-big jack, or super jacks. They all
          have simple combustions systems and run about $1100-$1200, but the
          Clayton units tend to be more expensive(over prived) at $2200 and
          up . Moving on the the advanced combustion systems furnaces(EPA
          certified), you can get into the PSG-Mini caddy, The caddy at $2300
          and $2400, respectively or go to the US Stove site and get a 1950
          unit for $3042. Yes the US stove 1950 unit is The Caddy with a new
          brand and $600 in additional profit for the middleman(US stove).

          The forced hot air component of the furnaces offer many advantages
          over just putting a wood stove in your basement and trying to let
          gravity heat your house. The forced hot air furnaces push warm air
          through your heating duct work to deliver heat to where ever you
          want it. The wood stove in the basement is going to be putting heat
          in almost every place that you don't want it. You don't want to
          heat the concrete walls of you basement(huge heat loss) or cook your
          joists, trying to heat the upstairs living space. Regular wood
          stoves are also not designed to be put in a basement, and in that
          position, they are usually over fired which leads to premature
          failure. Wood furnaces are built with thicker steel and better
          protected against over heating by the use of the cooling fan, and
          the high heat damper closing mechanisms. They were designed to be
          in that environment. The positive pressure around the fire box and
          heat exchanger will also prevent combustion gasses from being driven
          into your living space, if a crack forms. Wood stoves dont have
          that protection and rigging up some type of heat collection device
          over the unit(drum or cut propane tank that has been suggested) will
          eventually lead to smoke(combustion bi-products) being passed into
          the living space. Don't do it, it can kill you and your family.

          Good luck with your search,

          Sam







          --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "dsamworth2001" <DSAMWORTH@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > I checked in to some furnaces on line and they are a lot of money,
          or
          > at least for me. Some prices I got were from 4K-8K.
          >
          > Lowe's and Home Depot sell this one for $1,239:
          > http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?
          jspStoreDir=hdus&catalogId=10053&productId=100185844&navFlow=3&keywor
          d=wood+furnace&langId=-
          1&searchRedirect=wood+furnace&storeId=10051&endecaDataBean=com.homede
          pot.sa.el.wc.catalog.beans.EndecaDataBean%404a80a379&ddkey=Search
          >
          > If you can't open it try this one:
          > http://www.englanderstoves.com/28-3500.html
          >
          > Does anyone have one of these? Are you pleased with it?
          >
          > Thanks
          >
        • Ken Meinken
          ... I ve heard that a large grate like that violates modern building codes. Ken
          Message 4 of 18 , Jul 6, 2008
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            On Jul 6, 2008, at 12:14 PM, dcn51555 wrote:
            > directly above the
            > stove which will go up to the base of the first floor where there will
            > be a large grate in the floor to allow the heat to go directly up into
            > the main floor.

            I've heard that a large grate like that violates modern building codes.

            Ken
          • Ken Meinken
            ... While I understand your theory, in practice that safety factor doesn t exist. We have a Hotblast 1400. It does a good job BUT THE BLOWER RARELY COMES ON
            Message 5 of 18 , Jul 6, 2008
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              On Jul 6, 2008, at 8:51 PM, samiamrd wrote:
              > The positive pressure around the fire box and
              > heat exchanger will also prevent combustion gasses from being driven
              > into your living space, if a crack forms.

              While I understand your theory, in practice that safety factor
              doesn't exist.

              We have a Hotblast 1400. It does a good job BUT THE BLOWER RARELY
              COMES ON to produce the positive pressure you mention. Most of the
              time the convection in the duct provides plenty of draft to move the
              hot air to the upper floor. As such, the stove is surrounded by a
              negative pressure, not a positive one.

              Ken
            • yahoogroups@bsupply.us
              That seems to be a common belief but so far I haven t seen a code that said that. gggGary from Wisconsin _____ From: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
              Message 6 of 18 , Jul 6, 2008
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                That seems to be a common belief but so far I haven't seen a code that said
                that.



                gggGary

                from Wisconsin

                _____

                From: woodheat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:woodheat@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                Of Ken Meinken
                Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 8:35 PM
                To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [woodheat] Re: Englander 28-3500 Wood burning furnace




                On Jul 6, 2008, at 12:14 PM, dcn51555 wrote:
                > directly above the
                > stove which will go up to the base of the first floor where there will
                > be a large grate in the floor to allow the heat to go directly up into
                > the main floor.

                I've heard that a large grate like that violates modern building codes.

                Ken





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Patrick & Joe'l Cassidy
                And you assume there are building codes where this guy is... ... From: Ken Meinken To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 9:34 PM Subject:
                Message 7 of 18 , Jul 6, 2008
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                  And you assume there are building codes where this guy is...


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Ken Meinken
                  To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 9:34 PM
                  Subject: Re: [woodheat] Re: Englander 28-3500 Wood burning furnace



                  On Jul 6, 2008, at 12:14 PM, dcn51555 wrote:
                  > directly above the
                  > stove which will go up to the base of the first floor where there will
                  > be a large grate in the floor to allow the heat to go directly up into
                  > the main floor.

                  I've heard that a large grate like that violates modern building codes.

                  Ken






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                • Dave N
                  And you assume there are building codes where this guy is... There are building codes everywhere, even Alaska, but there are no official inspectors in this
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jul 6, 2008
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                    And you assume there are building codes where this guy is...

                    There are building codes everywhere, even Alaska, but there are no official inspectors in this part of the state. If and when I ever sell it will need to be inspected for the buyer to get a loan and that is when it gets sticky.
                    Dave
                    Haines, AK


                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: Patrick & Joe'l Cassidy <pjcassidy@...>
                    To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sunday, July 6, 2008 5:55:48 PM
                    Subject: Re: [woodheat] Re: Englander 28-3500 Wood burning furnace


                    And you assume there are building codes where this guy is...

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Ken Meinken
                    To: woodheat@yahoogroup s.com
                    Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 9:34 PM
                    Subject: Re: [woodheat] Re: Englander 28-3500 Wood burning furnace

                    On Jul 6, 2008, at 12:14 PM, dcn51555 wrote:
                    > directly above the
                    > stove which will go up to the base of the first floor where there will
                    > be a large grate in the floor to allow the heat to go directly up into
                    > the main floor.

                    I've heard that a large grate like that violates modern building codes.

                    Ken

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                    Checked by AVG.
                    Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.5/1533 - Release Date: 7/3/2008 7:19 PM

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                  • Ken Meinken
                    ... No, but I think following the code is a good idea even if you don t need to. Ken
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jul 6, 2008
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                      On Jul 6, 2008, at 9:55 PM, Patrick & Joe'l Cassidy wrote:
                      > And you assume there are building codes where this guy is...

                      No, but I think following the code is a good idea even if you don't
                      need to.

                      Ken
                    • samiamrd
                      Ken, If the blower rarely comes on, you may want to check the on thermostat setting. Is it set at 150 F, or higher on and 120 for off? We set our temp probe
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jul 7, 2008
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                        Ken,

                        If the blower rarely comes on, you may want to check the on
                        thermostat setting. Is it set at 150 F, or higher on and 120 for
                        off? We set our temp probe thermostat(not room thermostat) to turn
                        on the circulator for our furnace at 140, but the turn off was about
                        90, so the blower ran all of the time that there was a good fire in
                        the box. This creates the positive pressure around the firebox. We
                        did not regulate the draft using the thermostat to control heat to
                        the house, we controlled the heat output by the wood load and tried
                        to run a constant air supply sufficient to keep the fire going.
                        Also, our ducting was not big enough for gravity fed heat
                        distribution. Congratulations on having a good duct system.

                        Sam



                        --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, Ken Meinken <ken.meinken@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > On Jul 6, 2008, at 8:51 PM, samiamrd wrote:
                        > > The positive pressure around the fire box and
                        > > heat exchanger will also prevent combustion gasses from being
                        driven
                        > > into your living space, if a crack forms.
                        >
                        > While I understand your theory, in practice that safety factor
                        > doesn't exist.
                        >
                        > We have a Hotblast 1400. It does a good job BUT THE BLOWER
                        RARELY
                        > COMES ON to produce the positive pressure you mention. Most of
                        the
                        > time the convection in the duct provides plenty of draft to move
                        the
                        > hot air to the upper floor. As such, the stove is surrounded by
                        a
                        > negative pressure, not a positive one.
                        >
                        > Ken
                        >
                      • samiamrd
                        Ken, For clarity on price and operation for the englander furnace guy. Did you pay around $1200 for the unit(plus delivery)? How much square footage house do
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jul 7, 2008
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                          Ken,

                          For clarity on price and operation for the englander furnace guy.
                          Did you pay around $1200 for the unit(plus delivery)? How much
                          square footage house do you heat, approximate location, for heating
                          degree days? How often do you have to clean the chimney. What is
                          the length of time to season your wood? Is the wood dry enough, in
                          your opinion, or is it the best that can be obtained in the
                          season. Do you heat with only wood or are you supplementing your
                          heat load?

                          Thanks,

                          Sam




                          --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, Ken Meinken <ken.meinken@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > On Jul 6, 2008, at 8:51 PM, samiamrd wrote:
                          > > The positive pressure around the fire box and
                          > > heat exchanger will also prevent combustion gasses from being
                          driven
                          > > into your living space, if a crack forms.
                          >
                          > While I understand your theory, in practice that safety factor
                          > doesn't exist.
                          >
                          > We have a Hotblast 1400. It does a good job BUT THE BLOWER
                          RARELY
                          > COMES ON to produce the positive pressure you mention. Most of
                          the
                          > time the convection in the duct provides plenty of draft to move
                          the
                          > hot air to the upper floor. As such, the stove is surrounded by
                          a
                          > negative pressure, not a positive one.
                          >
                          > Ken
                          >
                        • Ken Meinken
                          Sam, We get plenty of heat and I prefer the quiet. However, our duct is simple, a straight vertical run through the ceiling above. I just wanted to point out
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jul 7, 2008
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                            Sam,

                            We get plenty of heat and I prefer the quiet.

                            However, our "duct" is simple, a straight vertical run through the
                            ceiling above.

                            I just wanted to point out that you lose the positive pressure if the
                            blower is not running.

                            Ken


                            On Jul 7, 2008, at 8:05 AM, samiamrd wrote:
                            > Ken,
                            >
                            > If the blower rarely comes on, you may want to check the on
                            > thermostat setting. Is it set at 150 F, or higher on and 120 for
                            > off? We set our temp probe thermostat(not room thermostat) to turn
                            > on the circulator for our furnace at 140, but the turn off was about
                            > 90, so the blower ran all of the time that there was a good fire in
                            > the box. This creates the positive pressure around the firebox. We
                            > did not regulate the draft using the thermostat to control heat to
                            > the house, we controlled the heat output by the wood load and tried
                            > to run a constant air supply sufficient to keep the fire going.
                            > Also, our ducting was not big enough for gravity fed heat
                            > distribution. Congratulations on having a good duct system.
                            >
                            > Sam
                            >
                            >
                          • Ken Meinken
                            Sam, The furnace was installed by the previous owner. But yes, they run around $1200 at TSC. We have been here since 2002. The house is 1800 sq ft ranch,
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jul 7, 2008
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                              Sam,

                              The furnace was installed by the previous owner. But yes, they run
                              around $1200 at TSC. We have been here since 2002.

                              The house is 1800 sq ft ranch, fairly well insulated.

                              The chimney has never been cleaned, I've checked it a few times and
                              it was clean (masonary). However it needs it bad now since I tried
                              using the furnace on mild spring days with too much of a smouldering
                              fire.

                              In the past, wood seasoning has been zero to 6 months, but with
                              preference to dead standing trees. This year I've gotten serious
                              and already have 5 cord split and stacked, most of it cut late last
                              summer. I want to get a year or two ahead on firewood.

                              In cold weather, we heat exclusively with the wood furnace. In
                              milder weather we use the heat pump or pellet stove.

                              We bought a new Pacific Engineering Summit wood stove in March. It's
                              not hooked up yet. It will be upstairs and we expect to get better
                              efficiency and a lot more ambience from it ;-) But the Hotblast
                              certainly has done it's job, especially with seasoned wood.

                              Ken
                              southern Ohio

                              On Jul 7, 2008, at 8:15 AM, samiamrd wrote:
                              > Ken,
                              >
                              > For clarity on price and operation for the englander furnace guy.
                              > Did you pay around $1200 for the unit(plus delivery)? How much
                              > square footage house do you heat, approximate location, for heating
                              > degree days? How often do you have to clean the chimney. What is
                              > the length of time to season your wood? Is the wood dry enough, in
                              > your opinion, or is it the best that can be obtained in the
                              > season. Do you heat with only wood or are you supplementing your
                              > heat load?
                              >
                              > Thanks,
                              >
                              > Sam
                              >
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