Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: The Argument in Favor of Wood Heating

Expand Messages
  • Joe
    Wow, $2,250 is huge! (At least to my soon-to-be-out-of-a-corporate- job way of thinking -- a couple thousand bucks will go a long way once we re living on our
    Message 1 of 26 , Mar 4, 2007
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      Wow, $2,250 is huge! (At least to my soon-to-be-out-of-a-corporate-
      job way of thinking -- a couple thousand bucks will go a long way
      once we're living on our homestead!) That's the sort of evidence
      that encourages me about our decision to heat with wood.

      I'm learning more and more from this group and the woodheat.org
      site. I grew up on a farm, and we supplemented baseboard electric
      heat with wood and coal (my ancestral home is in the Eastern
      Kentucky coalfields, so bituminous is everywhere). Now that the wife
      and I are heading back to that area, I've decided we can't really go
      wrong by heating with wood, IF we make smart decisions and do the
      work (i.e. the effort and time you mentioned).

      I'll definitely stay in touch with this group -- like our woodlot,
      it's too valuable a resource to overlook!

      Joe

      --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Novak" <timnovak226@...> wrote:
      >
      > Joe,
      >
      > You really can't go wrong if one of your main goals in heating
      with wood is
      > to save money.
      >
      > It takes effort and time on your part, but the payoff is tangible
      and real.
      >
      > I started 4 years ago when I decided the fires we had every night
      in our
      > fireplace would be better served if they heated our house.
      >
      > I invested in top of the line stuff (stove, stainless steel liner,
      new
      > chainsaw, wood splitter, racks for stacking wood) and had a
      professional do
      > the installation; total cost was about $8,000.
      >
      > After my first full year of heating my 2,200 sq. ft. home in
      Connecticut
      > with the woodstove (the stove supplies 100% of my heating needs),
      I saved
      > about 1,000 gallons of heating oil. At $2.50/gallon I am saving
      $2,500 per
      > year. My wood is generally free, but I will spend about $250/yr.
      to get
      > green tree lengths delivered to my house for convenience. Total
      annual
      > savings = $2,250.
      >
      > Payback period = less than 4 years.
      >
      > Good luck with your installation and your stove operation; keep in
      touch
      > with this group if you run into issues; it is a tremendous
      resource. After
      > 4 years I can safely say that I have no regrets about my decision
      to heat
      > with wood. It is not for everyone, but you will know if you are
      a "wood
      > chuck" right away!
      >
      > Regards,
      >
      > Tim
      >
      >
    • John Gulland
      ... I sure do. This is what we say on woodheat.org: We look forward to the day when outdoor boiler emissions are regulated so that manufacturers can compete
      Message 2 of 26 , Mar 5, 2007
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        Don wrote:
        > Given the new voluntary EPA standards for outdoor
        > wood burning
        > furnaces, do you think the furnaces that comply
        > with these standards
        > will have a positive role in proving heat in rural areas.

        I sure do. This is what we say on woodheat.org:

        "We look forward to the day when outdoor boiler emissions
        are regulated so that manufacturers can compete on a level
        playing field, buyers can base their decisions on good
        information and we at woodheat.org can endorse the outdoor
        boiler as a responsible and environmentally appropriate way
        to heat with wood."

        It will probably be a few years yet before we see emissions
        certified OBs, and they'll be more expensive than the
        current generation of simple, dumb burners, but they'll
        serve people better by being much more efficient and less
        smoky. I'm looking forward to seeing what the manufacturers
        come up with to meet the emissions limits.
        John
        --
        No virus found in this outgoing message.
        Checked by AVG Free Edition.
        Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/703 - Release
        Date: 26/02/2007
      • Edward Collins
        Great article and very articulate. To the woodburner that saves $2250/year in their 2200sf home, I m with ya! We decided to burn as a lifestyle decision.
        Message 3 of 26 , Mar 5, 2007
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          Great article and very articulate. To the woodburner that saves $2250/year in their 2200sf home, I'm with ya! We decided to burn as a lifestyle decision. Primary reasons were sustainability, independance, economy, and desire. I put a U.S Stove "King" in my 1100sf ranch. It is not a premium stove, but was only $600 with a blower at tractor supply. Bought all my pipe at Lowes, very reasonable. Inherited a 22 ton log splitter. Bought a cheap 18" mccolough saw and a 20" Husky. I installed the entire stove, flue, hearth and wall shields myself. I have about $1300 invested in woodburning.
          Before I burned wood my gas bill was $125 a month on the budget plan, now it's $30. $95 X 12 = $1140/year in savings. It's all gravy from here!
          I have also installed compact florescents everywhere and a tankless water heater, I like to be as independant as possible.

          Regards,
          Ed


          ---------------------------------
          Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • samiamrd
          Joe, You said that you are going to unhook NG and install propane for you central furnace. Why do that at all? It would seem that the expense of central
          Message 4 of 26 , Mar 5, 2007
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment
            Joe,

            You said that you are going to unhook NG and install propane for you
            central furnace. Why do that at all? It would seem that the expense
            of central furnace burner conversion from NG to propane, installation
            of the propane tanks(pads etc...), and new lines would outweigh the
            cost of just leaving the NG hooked up, and only using it when you are
            not in the house. Would you convert your potential kitchen stove,
            water heater, or clothes dryer from NG to propane, as well? It seems
            like a long way to go for no percieved gain. Well, that is unless if
            your propane supplier is a friend, or neighbor. I think that not
            using NG would have the same impact as not using propane.

            Sam

            --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <dusthalo@...> wrote:
            >
            > That's about where I am as well: wood harvested from my own 3-acre
            > lot adjacent to our house, it transported by wheelbarrow. What I
            > can't haul by hand will be trucked a whopping half mile from our
            > other (much larger -- 80 acres, MOL) woodlot just down the road.
            >
            > Reading your document now, John, and it's very informative. Thanks
            > for taking the time to write it.
            >
            > Last month, the bill for the natural gas used in the furnace (set
            at
            > 55 degrees, just to keep the pipes from freezing) in the house
            we're
            > renovating was $196. Some of the neighbors who use gas in similarly
            > sized homes had bills greater than $400. (One woman reported a $600
            > bill in the 1,500-square-foot home she shares with her husband and
            > two kids. Yikes!)
            >
            > Can't wait to unhook from the gas line, set up a couple of small
            > propane tanks to fuel the furnace as a backup when we're out of
            town
            > and heat with wood. After the initial pain in my wallet, our
            > investment in a good stove is looking better and better!
            >
            > Joe
            >
          • ROBERT BELFER
            We moved from a house using propane to one using NG. The conversion kit for the stove was about $70. Bailey, Colorados ... From:
            Message 5 of 26 , Mar 5, 2007
            View Source
            • 0 Attachment
              We moved from a house using propane to one using NG. The conversion kit for the stove was about $70.
              Bailey, Colorados
              ----- Original Message -----

              From: samiamrd<mailto:taborl@...>
              To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com<mailto:woodheat@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 10:48 AM
              Subject: [woodheat] Re: Joe, why unhook NG and install propane?


              Joe,

              You said that you are going to unhook NG and install propane for you
              central furnace. Why do that at all? It would seem that the expense
              of central furnace burner conversion from NG to propane, installation
              of the propane tanks(pads etc...), and new lines would outweigh the
              cost of just leaving the NG hooked up, and only using it when you are
              not in the house. Would you convert your potential kitchen stove,
              water heater, or clothes dryer from NG to propane, as well? It seems
              like a long way to go for no percieved gain. Well, that is unless if
              your propane supplier is a friend, or neighbor. I think that not
              using NG would have the same impact as not using propane.

              Sam

              --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com<mailto:woodheat%40yahoogroups.com>, "Joe" <dusthalo@...> wrote:
              >
              > That's about where I am as well: wood harvested from my own 3-acre
              > lot adjacent to our house, it transported by wheelbarrow. What I
              > can't haul by hand will be trucked a whopping half mile from our
              > other (much larger -- 80 acres, MOL) woodlot just down the road.
              >
              > Reading your document now, John, and it's very informative. Thanks
              > for taking the time to write it.
              >
              > Last month, the bill for the natural gas used in the furnace (set
              at
              > 55 degrees, just to keep the pipes from freezing) in the house
              we're
              > renovating was $196. Some of the neighbors who use gas in similarly
              > sized homes had bills greater than $400. (One woman reported a $600
              > bill in the 1,500-square-foot home she shares with her husband and
              > two kids. Yikes!)
              >
              > Can't wait to unhook from the gas line, set up a couple of small
              > propane tanks to fuel the furnace as a backup when we're out of
              town
              > and heat with wood. After the initial pain in my wallet, our
              > investment in a good stove is looking better and better!
              >
              > Joe
              >





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Joe
              Why do it at all? To better control what we spend and move further off the grid. We have everything we need to convert to propane, including two 100-pound
              Message 6 of 26 , Mar 5, 2007
              View Source
              • 0 Attachment
                Why do it at all? To better control what we spend and move further off
                the grid. We have everything we need to convert to propane, including
                two 100-pound tanks (when one is emptied, we switch to the other and
                refill the drained one) and all the pipe we need. (We'll pay to have
                the hardware in the furnace replaced, but that's it. My parents
                already have the necessary jets, supposedly.) All NG does is run the
                furnace, so no other appliances would convert.

                Plus, the propane dealer is a friend, heh.

                Joe

                --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "samiamrd" <taborl@...> wrote:
                >
                > Joe,
                >
                > You said that you are going to unhook NG and install propane for you
                > central furnace. Why do that at all? It would seem that the expense
                > of central furnace burner conversion from NG to propane, installation
                > of the propane tanks(pads etc...), and new lines would outweigh the
                > cost of just leaving the NG hooked up, and only using it when you are
                > not in the house. Would you convert your potential kitchen stove,
                > water heater, or clothes dryer from NG to propane, as well? It seems
                > like a long way to go for no percieved gain. Well, that is unless if
                > your propane supplier is a friend, or neighbor. I think that not
                > using NG would have the same impact as not using propane.
                >
                > Sam
                >
                > --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <dusthalo@> wrote:
                > >
                > > That's about where I am as well: wood harvested from my own 3-acre
                > > lot adjacent to our house, it transported by wheelbarrow. What I
                > > can't haul by hand will be trucked a whopping half mile from our
                > > other (much larger -- 80 acres, MOL) woodlot just down the road.
                > >
                > > Reading your document now, John, and it's very informative. Thanks
                > > for taking the time to write it.
                > >
                > > Last month, the bill for the natural gas used in the furnace (set
                > at
                > > 55 degrees, just to keep the pipes from freezing) in the house
                > we're
                > > renovating was $196. Some of the neighbors who use gas in similarly
                > > sized homes had bills greater than $400. (One woman reported a $600
                > > bill in the 1,500-square-foot home she shares with her husband and
                > > two kids. Yikes!)
                > >
                > > Can't wait to unhook from the gas line, set up a couple of small
                > > propane tanks to fuel the furnace as a backup when we're out of
                > town
                > > and heat with wood. After the initial pain in my wallet, our
                > > investment in a good stove is looking better and better!
                > >
                > > Joe
                > >
                >
              • Bob Reite
                I don t get it either. NG has always been less expensive than propane, and as far as reliability goes, unless you are in an earthquake prone area, NG doesn t
                Message 7 of 26 , Mar 5, 2007
                View Source
                • 0 Attachment
                  I don't get it either. NG has always been less expensive than propane,
                  and as far as reliability goes, unless you are in an earthquake prone
                  area, NG doesn't go out when the electricity stops. If I lived in an
                  area with natural gas service, that would be my "conventional" heat
                  source. As I live in a rural area, there is no NG service, oil is less
                  expensive than propane in my area, so I only use propane for the
                  conventional cook stove.


                  samiamrd wrote:
                  > Joe,
                  >
                  > You said that you are going to unhook NG and install propane for you
                  > central furnace. Why do that at all? It would seem that the expense
                  > of central furnace burner conversion from NG to propane, installation
                  > of the propane tanks(pads etc...), and new lines would outweigh the
                  > cost of just leaving the NG hooked up, and only using it when you are
                  > not in the house. Would you convert your potential kitchen stove,
                  > water heater, or clothes dryer from NG to propane, as well? It seems
                  > like a long way to go for no percieved gain. Well, that is unless if
                  > your propane supplier is a friend, or neighbor. I think that not
                  > using NG would have the same impact as not using propane.
                  >
                  > Sam
                  >
                  > --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <dusthalo@...> wrote:
                  >> That's about where I am as well: wood harvested from my own 3-acre
                  >> lot adjacent to our house, it transported by wheelbarrow. What I
                  >> can't haul by hand will be trucked a whopping half mile from our
                  >> other (much larger -- 80 acres, MOL) woodlot just down the road.
                  >>
                  >> Reading your document now, John, and it's very informative. Thanks
                  >> for taking the time to write it.
                  >>
                  >> Last month, the bill for the natural gas used in the furnace (set
                  > at
                  >> 55 degrees, just to keep the pipes from freezing) in the house
                  > we're
                  >> renovating was $196. Some of the neighbors who use gas in similarly
                  >> sized homes had bills greater than $400. (One woman reported a $600
                  >> bill in the 1,500-square-foot home she shares with her husband and
                  >> two kids. Yikes!)
                  >>
                  >> Can't wait to unhook from the gas line, set up a couple of small
                  >> propane tanks to fuel the furnace as a backup when we're out of
                  > town
                  >> and heat with wood. After the initial pain in my wallet, our
                  >> investment in a good stove is looking better and better!
                  >>
                  >> Joe
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
                  > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Doug Jacobs
                  Here in Illinois the gas company charges about $10.00 a month as a Customer Charge whether you use any gas or not. Plus a delivery charge of $.23 per therm,
                  Message 8 of 26 , Mar 5, 2007
                  View Source
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Here in Illinois the gas company charges about $10.00 a month as
                    a "Customer Charge" whether you use any gas or not. Plus a delivery
                    charge of $.23 per therm, plus the cost of the gas at $.86 per
                    therm. If the gas was only going to be used a few months out of the
                    year as supplemental heat, it could easily work out cheaper with
                    propane, based on cost per therm. And a wasted $60.00 for the 6
                    months that no gas is used.

                    Doug



                    --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, Bob Reite <br@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I don't get it either. NG has always been less expensive than
                    propane,
                    > and as far as reliability goes, unless you are in an earthquake
                    prone
                    > area, NG doesn't go out when the electricity stops. If I lived in
                    an
                    > area with natural gas service, that would be my "conventional"
                    heat
                    > source. As I live in a rural area, there is no NG service, oil is
                    less
                    > expensive than propane in my area, so I only use propane for the
                    > conventional cook stove.
                    >
                    >
                    > samiamrd wrote:
                    > > Joe,
                    > >
                    > > You said that you are going to unhook NG and install propane for
                    you
                    > > central furnace. Why do that at all? It would seem that the
                    expense
                    > > of central furnace burner conversion from NG to propane,
                    installation
                    > > of the propane tanks(pads etc...), and new lines would outweigh
                    the
                    > > cost of just leaving the NG hooked up, and only using it when
                    you are
                    > > not in the house. Would you convert your potential kitchen
                    stove,
                    > > water heater, or clothes dryer from NG to propane, as well? It
                    seems
                    > > like a long way to go for no percieved gain. Well, that is
                    unless if
                    > > your propane supplier is a friend, or neighbor. I think that
                    not
                    > > using NG would have the same impact as not using propane.
                    > >
                    > > Sam
                    > >
                    > > --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <dusthalo@> wrote:
                    > >> That's about where I am as well: wood harvested from my own 3-
                    acre
                    > >> lot adjacent to our house, it transported by wheelbarrow. What
                    I
                    > >> can't haul by hand will be trucked a whopping half mile from
                    our
                    > >> other (much larger -- 80 acres, MOL) woodlot just down the road.
                    > >>
                    > >> Reading your document now, John, and it's very informative.
                    Thanks
                    > >> for taking the time to write it.
                    > >>
                    > >> Last month, the bill for the natural gas used in the furnace
                    (set
                    > > at
                    > >> 55 degrees, just to keep the pipes from freezing) in the house
                    > > we're
                    > >> renovating was $196. Some of the neighbors who use gas in
                    similarly
                    > >> sized homes had bills greater than $400. (One woman reported a
                    $600
                    > >> bill in the 1,500-square-foot home she shares with her husband
                    and
                    > >> two kids. Yikes!)
                    > >>
                    > >> Can't wait to unhook from the gas line, set up a couple of
                    small
                    > >> propane tanks to fuel the furnace as a backup when we're out of
                    > > town
                    > >> and heat with wood. After the initial pain in my wallet, our
                    > >> investment in a good stove is looking better and better!
                    > >>
                    > >> Joe
                    > >>
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
                    > > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-
                    unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • jmcastle13
                    Exactly. Why send the gas company money every month of the year when the furnace will be used only infrequently (if at all, thanks to our new woodstove) during
                    Message 9 of 26 , Mar 5, 2007
                    View Source
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Exactly. Why send the gas company money every month of the year when
                      the furnace will be used only infrequently (if at all, thanks to our
                      new woodstove) during the winter? The natural gas bill -- even if
                      the gas isn't used at all -- comes every month. We're going from
                      having a corporate job bringing in mucho dinero each month to a
                      situation with far, far lower cash flow. I know $20 or $25 a month
                      might not seem like a lot to some people, but it will make a
                      difference for us. Again, gas is used only for the furnace, so
                      keeping a line hooked to the house for one appliance that will see
                      literally a few days' use (at best) each year yet cost us a monthly
                      fee seems like a waste of money.

                      And propane stored in my tanks on my farm won't go out when the
                      electricity stops, either.

                      Joe


                      --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "Doug Jacobs" <d.r.jacobs@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Here in Illinois the gas company charges about $10.00 a month as
                      > a "Customer Charge" whether you use any gas or not. Plus a
                      delivery
                      > charge of $.23 per therm, plus the cost of the gas at $.86 per
                      > therm. If the gas was only going to be used a few months out of
                      the
                      > year as supplemental heat, it could easily work out cheaper with
                      > propane, based on cost per therm. And a wasted $60.00 for the 6
                      > months that no gas is used.
                      >
                      > Doug
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, Bob Reite <br@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I don't get it either. NG has always been less expensive than
                      > propane,
                      > > and as far as reliability goes, unless you are in an earthquake
                      > prone
                      > > area, NG doesn't go out when the electricity stops. If I lived
                      in
                      > an
                      > > area with natural gas service, that would be my "conventional"
                      > heat
                      > > source. As I live in a rural area, there is no NG service, oil
                      is
                      > less
                      > > expensive than propane in my area, so I only use propane for the
                      > > conventional cook stove.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > samiamrd wrote:
                      > > > Joe,
                      > > >
                      > > > You said that you are going to unhook NG and install propane
                      for
                      > you
                      > > > central furnace. Why do that at all? It would seem that the
                      > expense
                      > > > of central furnace burner conversion from NG to propane,
                      > installation
                      > > > of the propane tanks(pads etc...), and new lines would
                      outweigh
                      > the
                      > > > cost of just leaving the NG hooked up, and only using it when
                      > you are
                      > > > not in the house. Would you convert your potential kitchen
                      > stove,
                      > > > water heater, or clothes dryer from NG to propane, as well?
                      It
                      > seems
                      > > > like a long way to go for no percieved gain. Well, that is
                      > unless if
                      > > > your propane supplier is a friend, or neighbor. I think that
                      > not
                      > > > using NG would have the same impact as not using propane.
                      > > >
                      > > > Sam
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <dusthalo@> wrote:
                      > > >> That's about where I am as well: wood harvested from my own 3-
                      > acre
                      > > >> lot adjacent to our house, it transported by wheelbarrow.
                      What
                      > I
                      > > >> can't haul by hand will be trucked a whopping half mile from
                      > our
                      > > >> other (much larger -- 80 acres, MOL) woodlot just down the
                      road.
                      > > >>
                      > > >> Reading your document now, John, and it's very informative.
                      > Thanks
                      > > >> for taking the time to write it.
                      > > >>
                      > > >> Last month, the bill for the natural gas used in the furnace
                      > (set
                      > > > at
                      > > >> 55 degrees, just to keep the pipes from freezing) in the
                      house
                      > > > we're
                      > > >> renovating was $196. Some of the neighbors who use gas in
                      > similarly
                      > > >> sized homes had bills greater than $400. (One woman reported
                      a
                      > $600
                      > > >> bill in the 1,500-square-foot home she shares with her
                      husband
                      > and
                      > > >> two kids. Yikes!)
                      > > >>
                      > > >> Can't wait to unhook from the gas line, set up a couple of
                      > small
                      > > >> propane tanks to fuel the furnace as a backup when we're out
                      of
                      > > > town
                      > > >> and heat with wood. After the initial pain in my wallet, our
                      > > >> investment in a good stove is looking better and better!
                      > > >>
                      > > >> Joe
                      > > >>
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
                      > > > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-
                      > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > > >
                      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Miro
                      Joe Here in Maine, from what I understand, people who heat with propane are freezing because the supply has been cut off. Don t know all the facts, someone
                      Message 10 of 26 , Mar 5, 2007
                      View Source
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Joe

                        Here in Maine, from what I understand, people who heat with propane
                        are freezing because the supply has been cut off. Don't know all the facts,
                        someone said Canadian socialists are on strike. You'd think they'd send
                        some "for the children" !

                        Miro

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Joe
                        To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 3:09 PM
                        Subject: [woodheat] Re: Joe, why unhook NG and install propane?


                        Why do it at all? To better control what we spend and move further off
                        the grid. We have everything we need to convert to propane, including
                        two 100-pound tanks (when one is emptied, we switch to the other and
                        refill the drained one) and all the pipe we need. (We'll pay to have
                        the hardware in the furnace replaced, but that's it. My parents
                        already have the necessary jets, supposedly.) All NG does is run the
                        furnace, so no other appliances would convert.

                        Plus, the propane dealer is a friend, heh.

                        Joe

                        --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "samiamrd" <taborl@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Joe,
                        >
                        > You said that you are going to unhook NG and install propane for you
                        > central furnace. Why do that at all? It would seem that the expense
                        > of central furnace burner conversion from NG to propane, installation
                        > of the propane tanks(pads etc...), and new lines would outweigh the
                        > cost of just leaving the NG hooked up, and only using it when you are
                        > not in the house. Would you convert your potential kitchen stove,
                        > water heater, or clothes dryer from NG to propane, as well? It seems
                        > like a long way to go for no percieved gain. Well, that is unless if
                        > your propane supplier is a friend, or neighbor. I think that not
                        > using NG would have the same impact as not using propane.
                        >
                        > Sam
                        >
                        > --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <dusthalo@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > That's about where I am as well: wood harvested from my own 3-acre
                        > > lot adjacent to our house, it transported by wheelbarrow. What I
                        > > can't haul by hand will be trucked a whopping half mile from our
                        > > other (much larger -- 80 acres, MOL) woodlot just down the road.
                        > >
                        > > Reading your document now, John, and it's very informative. Thanks
                        > > for taking the time to write it.
                        > >
                        > > Last month, the bill for the natural gas used in the furnace (set
                        > at
                        > > 55 degrees, just to keep the pipes from freezing) in the house
                        > we're
                        > > renovating was $196. Some of the neighbors who use gas in similarly
                        > > sized homes had bills greater than $400. (One woman reported a $600
                        > > bill in the 1,500-square-foot home she shares with her husband and
                        > > two kids. Yikes!)
                        > >
                        > > Can't wait to unhook from the gas line, set up a couple of small
                        > > propane tanks to fuel the furnace as a backup when we're out of
                        > town
                        > > and heat with wood. After the initial pain in my wallet, our
                        > > investment in a good stove is looking better and better!
                        > >
                        > > Joe
                        > >
                        >





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • jmcastle13
                        I won t be heating with propane; I ll be heating with wood. Propane will be used only when we leave the house for extended periods of time (one week or two at
                        Message 11 of 26 , Mar 5, 2007
                        View Source
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I won't be heating with propane; I'll be heating with wood. Propane
                          will be used only when we leave the house for extended periods of
                          time (one week or two at the most each winter), and then only at the
                          lowest setting.

                          Plus, most of the propane (and natural gas, for that matter) in
                          Kentucky comes from the Gulf of Mexico rather than Canada. Thanks
                          for the info, though.

                          Either way, I'll be happy to heat with oak, hickory and maple from
                          my woodlot. (Canadian socialists won't affect our warmth, heh!)

                          Joe

                          --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "Miro" <miro@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Joe
                          >
                          > Here in Maine, from what I understand, people who heat with propane
                          > are freezing because the supply has been cut off. Don't know all
                          the facts,
                          > someone said Canadian socialists are on strike. You'd think they'd
                          send
                          > some "for the children" !
                          >
                          > Miro
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: Joe
                          > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 3:09 PM
                          > Subject: [woodheat] Re: Joe, why unhook NG and install propane?
                          >
                          >
                          > Why do it at all? To better control what we spend and move
                          further off
                          > the grid. We have everything we need to convert to propane,
                          including
                          > two 100-pound tanks (when one is emptied, we switch to the other
                          and
                          > refill the drained one) and all the pipe we need. (We'll pay to
                          have
                          > the hardware in the furnace replaced, but that's it. My parents
                          > already have the necessary jets, supposedly.) All NG does is run
                          the
                          > furnace, so no other appliances would convert.
                          >
                          > Plus, the propane dealer is a friend, heh.
                          >
                          > Joe
                          >
                          > --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "samiamrd" <taborl@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Joe,
                          > >
                          > > You said that you are going to unhook NG and install propane
                          for you
                          > > central furnace. Why do that at all? It would seem that the
                          expense
                          > > of central furnace burner conversion from NG to propane,
                          installation
                          > > of the propane tanks(pads etc...), and new lines would
                          outweigh the
                          > > cost of just leaving the NG hooked up, and only using it when
                          you are
                          > > not in the house. Would you convert your potential kitchen
                          stove,
                          > > water heater, or clothes dryer from NG to propane, as well? It
                          seems
                          > > like a long way to go for no percieved gain. Well, that is
                          unless if
                          > > your propane supplier is a friend, or neighbor. I think that
                          not
                          > > using NG would have the same impact as not using propane.
                          > >
                          > > Sam
                          > >
                          > > --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <dusthalo@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > That's about where I am as well: wood harvested from my own
                          3-acre
                          > > > lot adjacent to our house, it transported by wheelbarrow.
                          What I
                          > > > can't haul by hand will be trucked a whopping half mile from
                          our
                          > > > other (much larger -- 80 acres, MOL) woodlot just down the
                          road.
                          > > >
                          > > > Reading your document now, John, and it's very informative.
                          Thanks
                          > > > for taking the time to write it.
                          > > >
                          > > > Last month, the bill for the natural gas used in the furnace
                          (set
                          > > at
                          > > > 55 degrees, just to keep the pipes from freezing) in the
                          house
                          > > we're
                          > > > renovating was $196. Some of the neighbors who use gas in
                          similarly
                          > > > sized homes had bills greater than $400. (One woman reported
                          a $600
                          > > > bill in the 1,500-square-foot home she shares with her
                          husband and
                          > > > two kids. Yikes!)
                          > > >
                          > > > Can't wait to unhook from the gas line, set up a couple of
                          small
                          > > > propane tanks to fuel the furnace as a backup when we're out
                          of
                          > > town
                          > > > and heat with wood. After the initial pain in my wallet, our
                          > > > investment in a good stove is looking better and better!
                          > > >
                          > > > Joe
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Bob Reite
                          That does make sense if you are not using NG during the Summer. But I ve never had NG go out during a power outage. That s why people use NG powered
                          Message 12 of 26 , Mar 5, 2007
                          View Source
                          • 0 Attachment
                            That does make sense if you are not using NG during the Summer. But
                            I've never had NG go out during a power outage. That's why people use
                            NG powered generators.

                            jmcastle13 wrote:
                            > Exactly. Why send the gas company money every month of the year when
                            > the furnace will be used only infrequently (if at all, thanks to our
                            > new woodstove) during the winter? The natural gas bill -- even if
                            > the gas isn't used at all -- comes every month. We're going from
                            > having a corporate job bringing in mucho dinero each month to a
                            > situation with far, far lower cash flow. I know $20 or $25 a month
                            > might not seem like a lot to some people, but it will make a
                            > difference for us. Again, gas is used only for the furnace, so
                            > keeping a line hooked to the house for one appliance that will see
                            > literally a few days' use (at best) each year yet cost us a monthly
                            > fee seems like a waste of money.
                            >
                            > And propane stored in my tanks on my farm won't go out when the
                            > electricity stops, either.
                            >
                            > Joe
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "Doug Jacobs" <d.r.jacobs@...>
                            > wrote:
                            >> Here in Illinois the gas company charges about $10.00 a month as
                            >> a "Customer Charge" whether you use any gas or not. Plus a
                            > delivery
                            >> charge of $.23 per therm, plus the cost of the gas at $.86 per
                            >> therm. If the gas was only going to be used a few months out of
                            > the
                            >> year as supplemental heat, it could easily work out cheaper with
                            >> propane, based on cost per therm. And a wasted $60.00 for the 6
                            >> months that no gas is used.
                            >>
                            >> Doug
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, Bob Reite <br@> wrote:
                            >>> I don't get it either. NG has always been less expensive than
                            >> propane,
                            >>> and as far as reliability goes, unless you are in an earthquake
                            >> prone
                            >>> area, NG doesn't go out when the electricity stops. If I lived
                            > in
                            >> an
                            >>> area with natural gas service, that would be my "conventional"
                            >> heat
                            >>> source. As I live in a rural area, there is no NG service, oil
                            > is
                            >> less
                            >>> expensive than propane in my area, so I only use propane for the
                            >>> conventional cook stove.
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>> samiamrd wrote:
                            >>>> Joe,
                            >>>>
                            >>>> You said that you are going to unhook NG and install propane
                            > for
                            >> you
                            >>>> central furnace. Why do that at all? It would seem that the
                            >> expense
                            >>>> of central furnace burner conversion from NG to propane,
                            >> installation
                            >>>> of the propane tanks(pads etc...), and new lines would
                            > outweigh
                            >> the
                            >>>> cost of just leaving the NG hooked up, and only using it when
                            >> you are
                            >>>> not in the house. Would you convert your potential kitchen
                            >> stove,
                            >>>> water heater, or clothes dryer from NG to propane, as well?
                            > It
                            >> seems
                            >>>> like a long way to go for no percieved gain. Well, that is
                            >> unless if
                            >>>> your propane supplier is a friend, or neighbor. I think that
                            >> not
                            >>>> using NG would have the same impact as not using propane.
                            >>>>
                            >>>> Sam
                            >>>>
                            >>>> --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <dusthalo@> wrote:
                            >>>>> That's about where I am as well: wood harvested from my own 3-
                            >> acre
                            >>>>> lot adjacent to our house, it transported by wheelbarrow.
                            > What
                            >> I
                            >>>>> can't haul by hand will be trucked a whopping half mile from
                            >> our
                            >>>>> other (much larger -- 80 acres, MOL) woodlot just down the
                            > road.
                            >>>>> Reading your document now, John, and it's very informative.
                            >> Thanks
                            >>>>> for taking the time to write it.
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> Last month, the bill for the natural gas used in the furnace
                            >> (set
                            >>>> at
                            >>>>> 55 degrees, just to keep the pipes from freezing) in the
                            > house
                            >>>> we're
                            >>>>> renovating was $196. Some of the neighbors who use gas in
                            >> similarly
                            >>>>> sized homes had bills greater than $400. (One woman reported
                            > a
                            >> $600
                            >>>>> bill in the 1,500-square-foot home she shares with her
                            > husband
                            >> and
                            >>>>> two kids. Yikes!)
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> Can't wait to unhook from the gas line, set up a couple of
                            >> small
                            >>>>> propane tanks to fuel the furnace as a backup when we're out
                            > of
                            >>>> town
                            >>>>> and heat with wood. After the initial pain in my wallet, our
                            >>>>> investment in a good stove is looking better and better!
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>> Joe
                            >>>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>> Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
                            >>>> To receive no more messages email: woodheat-
                            >> unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >>>>
                            >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
                            > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • jmcastle13
                            Yes, no natural gas use during the warm months at all, so paying even a small customer charge would grate on my frugal nerves after a year or two. And to
                            Message 13 of 26 , Mar 5, 2007
                            View Source
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Yes, no natural gas use during the warm months at all, so paying
                              even a small "customer charge" would grate on my frugal nerves after
                              a year or two. And to clarify, I wasn't saying NG goes out when the
                              power does; I was saying that propane, like NG, won't go out based
                              on electricity.

                              Also, I'm glad you brought up the generator issue. That's another
                              reason I want to make the switch -- a friend recently gave me a 5kw
                              generator. (He didn't need it since he recently acquired a 10kw
                              generator for his business, which he runs from home.) He had both
                              set up to run on propane, so I'd like to standardize as much as
                              possible.

                              Still, I might just remove the old furnace altogether. (It'd be nice
                              to pull the big beast out of the basement and open up more usable
                              space.) But a reliable backup heat source, even if only used once in
                              a blue moon, is mighty tempting.

                              Joe

                              --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, Bob Reite <br@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > That does make sense if you are not using NG during the Summer.
                              But
                              > I've never had NG go out during a power outage. That's why people
                              use
                              > NG powered generators.
                              >
                              > jmcastle13 wrote:
                              > > Exactly. Why send the gas company money every month of the year
                              when
                              > > the furnace will be used only infrequently (if at all, thanks to
                              our
                              > > new woodstove) during the winter? The natural gas bill -- even
                              if
                              > > the gas isn't used at all -- comes every month. We're going from
                              > > having a corporate job bringing in mucho dinero each month to a
                              > > situation with far, far lower cash flow. I know $20 or $25 a
                              month
                              > > might not seem like a lot to some people, but it will make a
                              > > difference for us. Again, gas is used only for the furnace, so
                              > > keeping a line hooked to the house for one appliance that will
                              see
                              > > literally a few days' use (at best) each year yet cost us a
                              monthly
                              > > fee seems like a waste of money.
                              > >
                              > > And propane stored in my tanks on my farm won't go out when the
                              > > electricity stops, either.
                              > >
                              > > Joe
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "Doug Jacobs" <d.r.jacobs@>
                              > > wrote:
                              > >> Here in Illinois the gas company charges about $10.00 a month
                              as
                              > >> a "Customer Charge" whether you use any gas or not. Plus a
                              > > delivery
                              > >> charge of $.23 per therm, plus the cost of the gas at $.86 per
                              > >> therm. If the gas was only going to be used a few months out of
                              > > the
                              > >> year as supplemental heat, it could easily work out cheaper
                              with
                              > >> propane, based on cost per therm. And a wasted $60.00 for the 6
                              > >> months that no gas is used.
                              > >>
                              > >> Doug
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >> --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, Bob Reite <br@> wrote:
                              > >>> I don't get it either. NG has always been less expensive than
                              > >> propane,
                              > >>> and as far as reliability goes, unless you are in an
                              earthquake
                              > >> prone
                              > >>> area, NG doesn't go out when the electricity stops. If I
                              lived
                              > > in
                              > >> an
                              > >>> area with natural gas service, that would be my "conventional"
                              > >> heat
                              > >>> source. As I live in a rural area, there is no NG service,
                              oil
                              > > is
                              > >> less
                              > >>> expensive than propane in my area, so I only use propane for
                              the
                              > >>> conventional cook stove.
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>> samiamrd wrote:
                              > >>>> Joe,
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>> You said that you are going to unhook NG and install propane
                              > > for
                              > >> you
                              > >>>> central furnace. Why do that at all? It would seem that the
                              > >> expense
                              > >>>> of central furnace burner conversion from NG to propane,
                              > >> installation
                              > >>>> of the propane tanks(pads etc...), and new lines would
                              > > outweigh
                              > >> the
                              > >>>> cost of just leaving the NG hooked up, and only using it when
                              > >> you are
                              > >>>> not in the house. Would you convert your potential kitchen
                              > >> stove,
                              > >>>> water heater, or clothes dryer from NG to propane, as well?
                              > > It
                              > >> seems
                              > >>>> like a long way to go for no percieved gain. Well, that is
                              > >> unless if
                              > >>>> your propane supplier is a friend, or neighbor. I think that
                              > >> not
                              > >>>> using NG would have the same impact as not using propane.
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>> Sam
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>> --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <dusthalo@> wrote:
                              > >>>>> That's about where I am as well: wood harvested from my own
                              3-
                              > >> acre
                              > >>>>> lot adjacent to our house, it transported by wheelbarrow.
                              > > What
                              > >> I
                              > >>>>> can't haul by hand will be trucked a whopping half mile from
                              > >> our
                              > >>>>> other (much larger -- 80 acres, MOL) woodlot just down the
                              > > road.
                              > >>>>> Reading your document now, John, and it's very informative.
                              > >> Thanks
                              > >>>>> for taking the time to write it.
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>>> Last month, the bill for the natural gas used in the furnace
                              > >> (set
                              > >>>> at
                              > >>>>> 55 degrees, just to keep the pipes from freezing) in the
                              > > house
                              > >>>> we're
                              > >>>>> renovating was $196. Some of the neighbors who use gas in
                              > >> similarly
                              > >>>>> sized homes had bills greater than $400. (One woman reported
                              > > a
                              > >> $600
                              > >>>>> bill in the 1,500-square-foot home she shares with her
                              > > husband
                              > >> and
                              > >>>>> two kids. Yikes!)
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>>> Can't wait to unhook from the gas line, set up a couple of
                              > >> small
                              > >>>>> propane tanks to fuel the furnace as a backup when we're out
                              > > of
                              > >>>> town
                              > >>>>> and heat with wood. After the initial pain in my wallet, our
                              > >>>>> investment in a good stove is looking better and better!
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>>> Joe
                              > >>>>>
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>> Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
                              > >>>> To receive no more messages email: woodheat-
                              > >> unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>>
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
                              > > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-
                              unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > >
                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • samiamrd
                              Joe, You are right. With the propane, there will be no monthly customer charge. The conversion seems like a good move when you have all of the parts to make
                              Message 14 of 26 , Mar 6, 2007
                              View Source
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Joe,

                                You are right. With the propane, there will be no monthly customer
                                charge. The conversion seems like a good move when you have all of
                                the parts to make it work. I personally would only shut off the NG
                                service just in case. You could call them just to turn it on, but
                                to have complete control of costs, propane in standby is a good move.

                                Sam


                                --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "jmcastle13" <jmcastle13@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I won't be heating with propane; I'll be heating with wood.
                                Propane
                                > will be used only when we leave the house for extended periods of
                                > time (one week or two at the most each winter), and then only at
                                the
                                > lowest setting.
                                >
                                > Plus, most of the propane (and natural gas, for that matter) in
                                > Kentucky comes from the Gulf of Mexico rather than Canada. Thanks
                                > for the info, though.
                                >
                                > Either way, I'll be happy to heat with oak, hickory and maple from
                                > my woodlot. (Canadian socialists won't affect our warmth, heh!)
                                >
                                > Joe
                                >
                                > --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "Miro" <miro@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Joe
                                > >
                                > > Here in Maine, from what I understand, people who heat with
                                propane
                                > > are freezing because the supply has been cut off. Don't know all
                                > the facts,
                                > > someone said Canadian socialists are on strike. You'd think
                                they'd
                                > send
                                > > some "for the children" !
                                > >
                                > > Miro
                                > >
                                > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > > From: Joe
                                > > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
                                > > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 3:09 PM
                                > > Subject: [woodheat] Re: Joe, why unhook NG and install propane?
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Why do it at all? To better control what we spend and move
                                > further off
                                > > the grid. We have everything we need to convert to propane,
                                > including
                                > > two 100-pound tanks (when one is emptied, we switch to the
                                other
                                > and
                                > > refill the drained one) and all the pipe we need. (We'll pay
                                to
                                > have
                                > > the hardware in the furnace replaced, but that's it. My parents
                                > > already have the necessary jets, supposedly.) All NG does is
                                run
                                > the
                                > > furnace, so no other appliances would convert.
                                > >
                                > > Plus, the propane dealer is a friend, heh.
                                > >
                                > > Joe
                                > >
                                > > --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "samiamrd" <taborl@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Joe,
                                > > >
                                > > > You said that you are going to unhook NG and install propane
                                > for you
                                > > > central furnace. Why do that at all? It would seem that the
                                > expense
                                > > > of central furnace burner conversion from NG to propane,
                                > installation
                                > > > of the propane tanks(pads etc...), and new lines would
                                > outweigh the
                                > > > cost of just leaving the NG hooked up, and only using it
                                when
                                > you are
                                > > > not in the house. Would you convert your potential kitchen
                                > stove,
                                > > > water heater, or clothes dryer from NG to propane, as well?
                                It
                                > seems
                                > > > like a long way to go for no percieved gain. Well, that is
                                > unless if
                                > > > your propane supplier is a friend, or neighbor. I think that
                                > not
                                > > > using NG would have the same impact as not using propane.
                                > > >
                                > > > Sam
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" <dusthalo@> wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > That's about where I am as well: wood harvested from my
                                own
                                > 3-acre
                                > > > > lot adjacent to our house, it transported by wheelbarrow.
                                > What I
                                > > > > can't haul by hand will be trucked a whopping half mile
                                from
                                > our
                                > > > > other (much larger -- 80 acres, MOL) woodlot just down the
                                > road.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Reading your document now, John, and it's very
                                informative.
                                > Thanks
                                > > > > for taking the time to write it.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Last month, the bill for the natural gas used in the
                                furnace
                                > (set
                                > > > at
                                > > > > 55 degrees, just to keep the pipes from freezing) in the
                                > house
                                > > > we're
                                > > > > renovating was $196. Some of the neighbors who use gas in
                                > similarly
                                > > > > sized homes had bills greater than $400. (One woman
                                reported
                                > a $600
                                > > > > bill in the 1,500-square-foot home she shares with her
                                > husband and
                                > > > > two kids. Yikes!)
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Can't wait to unhook from the gas line, set up a couple of
                                > small
                                > > > > propane tanks to fuel the furnace as a backup when we're
                                out
                                > of
                                > > > town
                                > > > > and heat with wood. After the initial pain in my wallet,
                                our
                                > > > > investment in a good stove is looking better and better!
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Joe
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                >
                              • taragarp
                                ... small amount of fuel. If I use less than 500 gallons during the heating season they charge .20 cents more a gallon. this is in wisconsin and all of the
                                Message 15 of 26 , Mar 6, 2007
                                View Source
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "samiamrd" <taborl@...> wrote:
                                  >before you switch to propane find out what the price is for using a
                                  small amount of fuel. If I use less than 500 gallons during the heating
                                  season they charge .20 cents more a gallon. this is in wisconsin and
                                  all of the propane companys do this. If you buy your own tank you can
                                  get around this but a new tank cost over 1000.00
                                • jmcastle13
                                  Thanks for the tip, but that shouldn t affect us. I already have two 100-pound tanks, and when one gets emptied I ll load it up and take it to the propane
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Mar 7, 2007
                                  View Source
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Thanks for the tip, but that shouldn't affect us. I already have two
                                    100-pound tanks, and when one gets emptied I'll load it up and take it
                                    to the propane dealer to have it filled. (Minimum purchase doesn't
                                    apply at our dealer when you go to their lot.)

                                    Thanks for all the advice and insight from this group. Y'all make sure
                                    a feller doesn't miss much!

                                    Joe

                                    --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "taragarp" <aparbs@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > --- In woodheat@yahoogroups.com, "samiamrd" <taborl@> wrote:
                                    > >before you switch to propane find out what the price is for using a
                                    > small amount of fuel. If I use less than 500 gallons during the
                                    heating
                                    > season they charge .20 cents more a gallon. this is in wisconsin and
                                    > all of the propane companys do this. If you buy your own tank you
                                    can
                                    > get around this but a new tank cost over 1000.00
                                    >
                                  • yahoogroups@bsupply.us
                                    The atomic numbers are horribly skewed by the Byzantine quagmire of ever changing regulations designed to sink it in the 70 s and 80 s Modern pebble bed
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Apr 12 5:27 PM
                                    View Source
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      The atomic numbers are horribly skewed by the Byzantine quagmire of ever
                                      changing regulations designed to sink it in the 70's and 80's Modern pebble
                                      bed reactors will have a much higher REI and the best possible CO2 signature
                                      of any near term viable energy source.



                                      gggGary

                                      from Wisconsin

                                      _____

                                      From: woodheat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:woodheat@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                      Of Bob Reite
                                      Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 5:34 PM
                                      To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [woodheat] The Argument in Favor of Wood Heating



                                      What I found the most interesting was the Energy Return On Energy
                                      Invested figures. As I suspected, atomic power is really bad, only 4:1.
                                      Coal is better at 9:1, and wood heat is listed at 38:1, with the
                                      assumption of hauling the wood by truck some distance. However, since
                                      I split by hand and have my own woodlot, taking the wood out by
                                      wheelbarrow, my EROEI is 340:1 ! Even petroleum from the most efficient
                                      wells can't beat that!

                                      John Gulland wrote:
                                      > Hi all,
                                      > I've been working on a document called The Argument in Favor
                                      > of Wood Heating for several months and finally posted it to
                                      > the woodheat.org web site late last week. It is written in a
                                      > regional context for Ontario, Canada, because of the groups
                                      > that sponsored it, but I think you'll see that the issues
                                      > are universal and are certainly reflected in the discussion
                                      > on this list. The idea is to use the Argument as a sort of
                                      > reference document that can be quoted or excerpted for use
                                      > whenever well-meaning but misguided people try to restrict
                                      > the responsible use of wood fuel. You'll find it here:
                                      > http://www.woodheat <http://www.woodheat.org/why/theargument.htm>
                                      .org/why/theargument.htm
                                      >
                                      > Hope you enjoy it.
                                      > John
                                      > --
                                      > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                      > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                      > Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/703 - Release
                                      > Date: 26/02/2007





                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Bob Reite
                                      True, the value of 4:1 is for a light water reactor, which requires enriched uranium and the enrichment process uses considerable amounts of energy. Pebble
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Apr 12 7:37 PM
                                      View Source
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        True, the value of 4:1 is for a light water reactor, which requires
                                        enriched uranium and the enrichment process uses considerable amounts of
                                        energy. Pebble Bed reactors can be made to run on natural uranium
                                        saving that energy cost, and they run at high temperatures giving
                                        greater thermodynamic efficiency. Although some proponents of pebble
                                        bed reactors claim that they are safer than light water reactors, the
                                        pebbles are composed in part of flammable graphite, so if the reactor
                                        wall should fail and air should get into the hot core..think Chernobyl..

                                        I couldn't find any published figures of EROEI for pebble bed reactors,
                                        but I suspect that when all things are considered, 10:1 will be the best
                                        that can be hoped for. Uranium also only exists in finite quantities
                                        and like traditional fossil fuels will be used up in the not too distant
                                        future.



                                        yahoogroups@... wrote:
                                        > The atomic numbers are horribly skewed by the Byzantine quagmire of ever
                                        > changing regulations designed to sink it in the 70's and 80's Modern pebble
                                        > bed reactors will have a much higher REI and the best possible CO2 signature
                                        > of any near term viable energy source.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > gggGary
                                        >
                                        > from Wisconsin
                                        >
                                        > _____
                                        >
                                        > From: woodheat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:woodheat@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                        > Of Bob Reite
                                        > Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 5:34 PM
                                        > To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: Re: [woodheat] The Argument in Favor of Wood Heating
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > What I found the most interesting was the Energy Return On Energy
                                        > Invested figures. As I suspected, atomic power is really bad, only 4:1.
                                        > Coal is better at 9:1, and wood heat is listed at 38:1, with the
                                        > assumption of hauling the wood by truck some distance. However, since
                                        > I split by hand and have my own woodlot, taking the wood out by
                                        > wheelbarrow, my EROEI is 340:1 ! Even petroleum from the most efficient
                                        > wells can't beat that!
                                        >
                                        > John Gulland wrote:
                                        >> Hi all,
                                        >> I've been working on a document called The Argument in Favor
                                        >> of Wood Heating for several months and finally posted it to
                                        >> the woodheat.org web site late last week. It is written in a
                                        >> regional context for Ontario, Canada, because of the groups
                                        >> that sponsored it, but I think you'll see that the issues
                                        >> are universal and are certainly reflected in the discussion
                                        >> on this list. The idea is to use the Argument as a sort of
                                        >> reference document that can be quoted or excerpted for use
                                        >> whenever well-meaning but misguided people try to restrict
                                        >> the responsible use of wood fuel. You'll find it here:
                                        >> http://www.woodheat <http://www.woodheat.org/why/theargument.htm>
                                        > .org/why/theargument.htm
                                        >> Hope you enjoy it.
                                        >> John
                                        >> --
                                        >> No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                        >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                        >> Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/703 - Release
                                        >> Date: 26/02/2007
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
                                        > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        >
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • yahoogroups@bsupply.us
                                        The Chinese have already turned the coolant off on one and it just sat there at a steady state temp. The graphite is in a form that is very unlikely to flame.
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Apr 12 9:00 PM
                                        View Source
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          The Chinese have already turned the coolant off on one and it just sat there
                                          at a steady state temp. The graphite is in a form that is very unlikely to
                                          flame. I know this is wood heat but if you believe that global warming is
                                          happening you are going to HAVE to pick a course that changes the CO2
                                          release rates. Nuke is it for the near term. I'll shut up now. Read up
                                          on why the US went with water cooled and you will find the US navy and the
                                          cold war at the root of a bad choice for the first and second gen nukes.



                                          gggGary

                                          from Wisconsin

                                          True, the value of 4:1 is for a light water reactor, which requires
                                          enriched uranium and the enrichment process uses considerable amounts of
                                          energy. Pebble Bed reactors can be made to run on natural uranium
                                          saving that energy cost, and they run at high temperatures giving
                                          greater thermodynamic efficiency. Although some proponents of pebble
                                          bed reactors claim that they are safer than light water reactors, the
                                          pebbles are composed in part of flammable graphite, so if the reactor
                                          wall should fail and air should get into the hot core..think Chernobyl..

                                          I couldn't find any published figures of EROEI for pebble bed reactors,
                                          but I suspect that when all things are considered, 10:1 will be the best
                                          that can be hoped for. Uranium also only exists in finite quantities
                                          and like traditional fossil fuels will be used up in the not too distant
                                          future.

                                          yahoogroups@ <mailto:yahoogroups%40bsupply.us> bsupply.us wrote:
                                          > The atomic numbers are horribly skewed by the Byzantine quagmire of ever
                                          > changing regulations designed to sink it in the 70's and 80's Modern
                                          pebble
                                          > bed reactors will have a much higher REI and the best possible CO2
                                          signature
                                          > of any near term viable energy source.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > gggGary
                                          >
                                          > from Wisconsin
                                          >
                                          > _____
                                          >
                                          > From: woodheat@yahoogroup <mailto:woodheat%40yahoogroups.com> s.com
                                          [mailto:woodheat@yahoogroup <mailto:woodheat%40yahoogroups.com> s.com] On
                                          Behalf
                                          > Of Bob Reite
                                          > Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 5:34 PM
                                          > To: woodheat@yahoogroup <mailto:woodheat%40yahoogroups.com> s.com
                                          > Subject: Re: [woodheat] The Argument in Favor of Wood Heating
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > What I found the most interesting was the Energy Return On Energy
                                          > Invested figures. As I suspected, atomic power is really bad, only 4:1.
                                          > Coal is better at 9:1, and wood heat is listed at 38:1, with the
                                          > assumption of hauling the wood by truck some distance. However, since
                                          > I split by hand and have my own woodlot, taking the wood out by
                                          > wheelbarrow, my EROEI is 340:1 ! Even petroleum from the most efficient
                                          > wells can't beat that!
                                          >
                                          > John Gulland wrote:
                                          >> Hi all,
                                          >> I've been working on a document called The Argument in Favor
                                          >> of Wood Heating for several months and finally posted it to
                                          >> the woodheat.org web site late last week. It is written in a
                                          >> regional context for Ontario, Canada, because of the groups
                                          >> that sponsored it, but I think you'll see that the issues
                                          >> are universal and are certainly reflected in the discussion
                                          >> on this list. The idea is to use the Argument as a sort of
                                          >> reference document that can be quoted or excerpted for use
                                          >> whenever well-meaning but misguided people try to restrict
                                          >> the responsible use of wood fuel. You'll find it here:
                                          >> http://www.woodheat <http://www.woodheat
                                          <http://www.woodheat.org/why/theargument.htm> .org/why/theargument.htm>
                                          > .org/why/theargument.htm
                                          >> Hope you enjoy it.
                                          >> John
                                          >> --
                                          >> No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                          >> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                          >> Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/703 - Release
                                          >> Date: 26/02/2007
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat
                                          <http://www.woodheat.org> .org
                                          > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscrib
                                          <mailto:woodheat-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com> e@yahoogroups.com
                                          >
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >





                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Bob Reite
                                          I believe that the Germans also shut off the coolant flow and the reactor remained at a safe idle temperature. However in both experiments, the reactor core
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Apr 12 11:58 PM
                                          View Source
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            I believe that the Germans also shut off the coolant flow and the
                                            reactor remained at a safe idle temperature. However in both
                                            experiments, the reactor core was still safely surrounded by the inert
                                            cooling gas. One design has the graphite pebbles coated with a ceramic
                                            material that would keep the graphite from burning, even if air were to
                                            reach the hot core.

                                            I still say that fission reactors are a a dead end since the fuel will
                                            run out and what do you do with the waste that will remain dangerous for
                                            geologic time scales? Better to go with wind power, which has a higher
                                            EROEI and will always be there.

                                            yahoogroups@... wrote:
                                            > The Chinese have already turned the coolant off on one and it just sat there
                                            > at a steady state temp. The graphite is in a form that is very unlikely to
                                            > flame. I know this is wood heat but if you believe that global warming is
                                            > happening you are going to HAVE to pick a course that changes the CO2
                                            > release rates. Nuke is it for the near term. I'll shut up now. Read up
                                            > on why the US went with water cooled and you will find the US navy and the
                                            > cold war at the root of a bad choice for the first and second gen nukes.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > gggGary
                                            >
                                            > from Wisconsin
                                            >
                                            > True, the value of 4:1 is for a light water reactor, which requires
                                            > enriched uranium and the enrichment process uses considerable amounts of
                                            > energy. Pebble Bed reactors can be made to run on natural uranium
                                            > saving that energy cost, and they run at high temperatures giving
                                            > greater thermodynamic efficiency. Although some proponents of pebble
                                            > bed reactors claim that they are safer than light water reactors, the
                                            > pebbles are composed in part of flammable graphite, so if the reactor
                                            > wall should fail and air should get into the hot core..think Chernobyl..
                                            >
                                            > I couldn't find any published figures of EROEI for pebble bed reactors,
                                            > but I suspect that when all things are considered, 10:1 will be the best
                                            > that can be hoped for. Uranium also only exists in finite quantities
                                            > and like traditional fossil fuels will be used up in the not too distant
                                            > future.
                                            >
                                            > yahoogroups@ <mailto:yahoogroups%40bsupply.us> bsupply.us wrote:
                                            >> The atomic numbers are horribly skewed by the Byzantine quagmire of ever
                                            >> changing regulations designed to sink it in the 70's and 80's Modern
                                            > pebble
                                            >> bed reactors will have a much higher REI and the best possible CO2
                                            > signature
                                            >> of any near term viable energy source.
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >> gggGary
                                            >>
                                            >> from Wisconsin
                                            >>
                                            >> _____
                                            >>
                                            >> From: woodheat@yahoogroup <mailto:woodheat%40yahoogroups.com> s.com
                                            > [mailto:woodheat@yahoogroup <mailto:woodheat%40yahoogroups.com> s.com] On
                                            > Behalf
                                            >> Of Bob Reite
                                            >> Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 5:34 PM
                                            >> To: woodheat@yahoogroup <mailto:woodheat%40yahoogroups.com> s.com
                                            >> Subject: Re: [woodheat] The Argument in Favor of Wood Heating
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >> What I found the most interesting was the Energy Return On Energy
                                            >> Invested figures. As I suspected, atomic power is really bad, only 4:1.
                                            >> Coal is better at 9:1, and wood heat is listed at 38:1, with the
                                            >> assumption of hauling the wood by truck some distance. However, since
                                            >> I split by hand and have my own woodlot, taking the wood out by
                                            >> wheelbarrow, my EROEI is 340:1 ! Even petroleum from the most efficient
                                            >> wells can't beat that!
                                            >>
                                            >> John Gulland wrote:
                                            >>> Hi all,
                                            >>> I've been working on a document called The Argument in Favor
                                            >>> of Wood Heating for several months and finally posted it to
                                            >>> the woodheat.org web site late last week. It is written in a
                                            >>> regional context for Ontario, Canada, because of the groups
                                            >>> that sponsored it, but I think you'll see that the issues
                                            >>> are universal and are certainly reflected in the discussion
                                            >>> on this list. The idea is to use the Argument as a sort of
                                            >>> reference document that can be quoted or excerpted for use
                                            >>> whenever well-meaning but misguided people try to restrict
                                            >>> the responsible use of wood fuel. You'll find it here:
                                            >>> http://www.woodheat <http://www.woodheat
                                            > <http://www.woodheat.org/why/theargument.htm> .org/why/theargument.htm>
                                            >> .org/why/theargument.htm
                                            >>> Hope you enjoy it.
                                            >>> John
                                            >>> --
                                            >>> No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                            >>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                            >>> Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/703 - Release
                                            >>> Date: 26/02/2007
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >> Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat
                                            > <http://www.woodheat.org> .org
                                            >> To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscrib
                                            > <mailto:woodheat-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com> e@yahoogroups.com
                                            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Check THE woodheat web site at http://www.woodheat.org
                                            > To receive no more messages email: woodheat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                            >
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                          • Scott Berkey
                                            What about would pellets? Takes quite a bit of energy to process cord wood into those little pellets I would think. However, if wood is 38:1 what about
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Apr 13 5:37 AM
                                            View Source
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              What about would pellets? Takes quite a bit of energy to process cord wood
                                              into those little pellets I would think.

                                              However, if wood is 38:1 what about ethanol made from wood? Or is there
                                              just too much waste in the whole ethanol fermentation process?

                                              Another thought, is there another measure similar to EROEI that reflects all
                                              energy in, i.e. that measure how much of the total energy that created the
                                              fuel is returned, i.e. of all the solar energy that fell on a tree during
                                              it's life how much is release when I burn it as fuel?

                                              Scott

                                              > _____
                                              >
                                              >From: woodheat@yahoogroups.com [mailto:woodheat@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                              >Of Bob Reite
                                              >Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 5:34 PM
                                              >To: woodheat@yahoogroups.com
                                              >Subject: Re: [woodheat] The Argument in Favor of Wood Heating
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >What I found the most interesting was the Energy Return On Energy
                                              >Invested figures. As I suspected, atomic power is really bad, only 4:1.
                                              >Coal is better at 9:1, and wood heat is listed at 38:1, with the
                                              >assumption of hauling the wood by truck some distance. However, since
                                              >I split by hand and have my own woodlot, taking the wood out by
                                              >wheelbarrow, my EROEI is 340:1 ! Even petroleum from the most efficient
                                              >wells can't beat that!
                                              >
                                              >John Gulland wrote:
                                              > > Hi all,
                                              > > I've been working on a document called The Argument in Favor
                                              > > of Wood Heating for several months and finally posted it to
                                              > > the woodheat.org web site late last week. It is written in a
                                              > > regional context for Ontario, Canada, because of the groups
                                              > > that sponsored it, but I think you'll see that the issues
                                              > > are universal and are certainly reflected in the discussion
                                              > > on this list. The idea is to use the Argument as a sort of
                                              > > reference document that can be quoted or excerpted for use
                                              > > whenever well-meaning but misguided people try to restrict
                                              > > the responsible use of wood fuel. You'll find it here:
                                              > > http://www.woodheat <http://www.woodheat.org/why/theargument.htm>
                                              >.org/why/theargument.htm
                                              > >
                                              > > Hope you enjoy it.
                                              > > John
                                              > > --
                                              > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
                                              > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                              > > Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/703 - Release
                                              > > Date: 26/02/2007
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >

                                              _________________________________________________________________
                                              The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by Experian.
                                              http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOOTERAVERAGE
                                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.